There is increasing reason to believe, simply based on Google searches in the hours after the vote (a astronomical rise in the phrases "what is the EU" and "what happens if we leave the EU") that many people didn't have a CLUE what they were voting for, or were under the impression it barely mattered. What a historic fuck-up by a large portion of the voting public. A textbook example of irresponsible ignorance.
Cameron's fault. He turned it into a vote of confidence in the government.
Well, yes, he made a historically bad blunder. But does that let off the citizenry for casting votes they had next to no knowledge about??
This is more propaganda, like the ageist bull. Everyone I know knew what they where voting for or against. The campaigns where not to be trusted, but people have their own experience.
The fact is the establishment where in favour of remain, couldn't conceive of loosing, and are now lashing out at voters for thier own failure.
Cameron, made "Remain" the official government position. If someone you dislike and distrust tells you to do something, then the natural reaction is to do the opposite. He was to arrogant to recognise that he wasn't elected because he was popular, he was elected because his opponent had the charisma of a dog turd.
It's not like I have any love for David Cameron. But good god, $2 trillion dollars were wiped out instantly by this. Global markets crashed, Japan STOPPED trading of the pound altogether. So what were the people in favor of Brexit voting for exactly?? If this financial self-immolation was inevitable if the vote came out the way it did (and there were countless predictions that this would be the case) just what the hell justifies this?? That they want their "country back"?? From who?? Are they under some illusions that the 1% financial elite of this world aren't still the ones who hold all the cards?? Ultimately, there could be untold problems and suffering so a segment of voters could feel good about themselves for a few minutes by casting some sort of protest vote against whatever the hell it is they are pissed about in their own head.
By the way, this is how the age groups voted, so it is hardly ageist to imply that older people who aren't going to be around to reap the consequences of their actions screwed over the younger people who are. It's as plain as day:
And I'll at least give David Cameron the fact that he had the good grace in the end to realize what a shit-storm he had unleashed and fell on his sword. The leader of the Brexit movement basically admitted on television today that a cornerstone of their campaign (that the money the UK was sending to the EU would go right back to the NHS) was a total goddamn lie. And he was brazen enough to say it out-loud on national television, likely because he is raving sociopath.
Well, I can't say I want to live in this country any more. I feel like too many leave votes came from uneducated racists stirred up by blatant fear mongering, and not enough younger people who'll actually live to be affected voted. Sad times.
This is one of the reasons the "Remain" campaign failed: classic spurious logic. "Some "Leave" supporters are racist, ergo ALL "Leave" supporters are racist."
Generally speaking, calling people names isn't considered a good way to persuade them to change their minds...
Not quite correct. Not everyone who voted to leave is a racist, no-one has said that and we can all agree this isn't the case.
However all racists voted to leave.
Here is a nice collection of various disgusting groups all celebrating the outcome of this vote.
I declare all British people in this thread exercising their right to independence to be honorary Americans. Happy independence day! God save the Queen and all that.
The pendulum is swinging back, friends. Democracy will never be defeated.
I declare all British people in this thread exercising their right to independence to be honorary Americans. Happy independence day! God save the Queen and all that.
The pendulum is swinging back, friends. Democracy will never be defeated.
We have our own national referendum on our level of lunacy coming up in about 5 months. This doesn't exactly do anything to temper the worries of putting a neo-fascist in the White House, even if recent polls say he is self-destructing. For the people who support Trump, I don't think there is anything he could do short of slitting the throat of an infant on live television to disqualify him.
It's easy to make sweeping generalizations about how the elders are screwing us younger masses, and how we deserve more because they're gonna die in a couple year anyway, but that argument is just a tiny bit flawed. If you estimate the value of a human based on its life expectancy, you make terminally ill people into nobodies. They have no right anymore, they shouldn't benefit from anything that could benefit somebody else since they're gonna die in a short while anyway. And since in the end p much everything is money, they can't benefit from anything at all, better let them die than wasting ressources in keeping them alive. That's the extreme case but ultimately the result is that as you grow older you become less and less worth listening to, or even keeping alive. And if you think this should be self-imposed, the old guard stepping aside on its own because of their poor life expectancy, you just ask them to consider themselves worthless compared to the young ones. Gotta say, I'm not a big fan of making anyone feel worthless, but I suppose this is a matter of personal opinion.
More importantly, what's even the point? These guys said the exact same thing when they were young, and in the end just became what they initially despised, simply because when they never stopped fighting for themselves.
aaaaand there's the fact that if the press and the politics are manipulating these old geezers in opposing you (to further their own goals, and I mean it's really a textbook example here, what with Mr. Johnson being eurosceptic as long as it gives him a fighting ground with Mr. Cameron), be it through obfuscation, careful selection of what to tell them or even outright lies, you really get that your ennemies are the scared, manipulated old bastards?
It's easy to make sweeping generalizations about how the elders are screwing us younger masses, and how we deserve more because they're gonna die in a couple year anyway, but that argument is just a tiny bit flawed. If you estimate the value of a human based on its life expectancy, you make terminally ill people into nobodies. They have no right anymore, they shouldn't benefit from anything that could benefit somebody else since they're gonna die in a short while anyway. And since in the end p much everything is money, they can't benefit from anything at all, better let them die than wasting ressources in keeping them leaving. That's the extreme casebut ultimately the result is that as you grow older you become less and less worth listening to, or even keeping alive. And if you think this should be self-imposed, the old guard stepping aside on its own because of their poor life expectancy, you just ask them to consider themselves worthless compared to the young ones. Gotta say, I'm not a big fan of making anyone feel worthless, but I suppose this is a matter of personal opinion.
More importantly, what's even the point? These guys said the exact same thing when they were young, and in the end just became what they initially despised, simply because when they never stopped fighting for themselves.
aaaaand there's the fact that if the press and the politics are manipulating these old geezers in opposing you (to further their own goals, and I mean it's really a textbook example here, what with Mr. Johnson being eurosceptic as long as it gives him a fighting ground with Mr. Cameron), be it through obfuscation, careful selection of what to tell them or even outright lies, you really get that your ennemies are the scared and manipulated old bastards?
It's not a matter of them stepping aside, or shouldn't benefit, it's that they shouldn't be selfish bastards. One of the oldest axioms in the world is that parents want "better for their children than they had" but when it comes to voting patterns, that often doesn't even come close to being the case.
I think it's remarkable that David Cameron resigned because of this. It's not like a resignation was asked of him; he volunteered it. I understand that he did it because the people needed a leader who would willingly and enthusiastically implement the plan they voted for, and as an opponent of the plan, he would not try as hard to make it happen as somebody else.
In a lot of countries, this sort of surprise would be met by a government crackdown, not by a solemn bow of the head. Whether the decision was right or wrong, this shows that the people here have a government that responds to them.
Most folks on this planet don't have that.
It reminds me of an old professor's anecdote about the Korean War. General Douglas MacArthur wanted to use nuclear weapons to recover the North Korean territory we had just lost to the Chinese, and Truman refused. When MacArthur persisted, Truman fired him.
MacArthur didn't try to subvert the president's order. He accepted the dismissal.
Douglas MacArthur was the most respected and accomplished general in American history, and enjoyed authority in the most powerful military on the planet. Losing him was tragic, but it was a powerful display of one of the most important tenets of our system: the civilian government's control of the military. Military coups are not a thing here. I like MacArthur, but the story of his fall is one of my favorites in American history. It makes me proud to see patriotism expressed so purely. In the United States, political power comes from electoral democracy, not the barrel of a gun.
I see the same thing here. Regardless of the merits of Brexit, Cameron's response--acceptance and resignation, without dispute--shows that the UK's democracy is just as strong.
I don't suppose it's occurred to the youths who are moaning about the "selfish old bastards" that maybe, just maybe, the reason they are free to moan openly and criticise politicians is because those selfish bastards loved their country and paid with blood for their children's freedom of thought and expression.
I don't suppose it's occurred to the youths who are moaning about the "selfish old bastards" that maybe, just maybe, the reason they are free to moan openly and criticise politicians is because those selfish bastards loved their country and paid with blood for their children's freedom of thought and expression.
There are hardly any living World War 2 vets left on this Earth at this point, much less voting in this referendum. And there damn sure hasn't been a war legitimately fought for "freedom" since....
Another major point to consider is that, once leaving the EU, the US will consider the UK as being at the back of the line in trade negotiations. The remaining major countries like France, Germany and Italy are all going to be treated more favorably. Why the hell would any country risk pissing off 5 potential trade partners to satisfy one lone wolf?? And EU officials are already talking about getting the UK out as soon as possible, basically saying, "you want out, fine, good luck on your own".
Another major point to consider is that, once leaving the EU, the US will consider the UK as being at the back of the line in trade negotiations.".
Right or wrong I'm sure that would be welcomed by many - there's already considerable disquiet in many countries about the progress of the US / EU trade treaty and no guarantee that will ultimately be successfully agreed.
By the way, this is how the age groups voted, so it is hardly ageist to imply that older people who aren't going to be around to reap the consequences of their actions screwed over the younger people who are. It's as plain as day:
It's amazing how racism is so abominable, but ageism is perfectly acceptable...
This not only ageist, but another complete lie, based on an unrepresentative sample size of 1200. That's a much smaller sample size than the opinion polls that predicted a Remain to win by around 10%.
Maybe if Remain had tried telling the truth, rather than trying to match Leave's lies with more lies, they would have done better...
I don't suppose it's occurred to the youths who are moaning about the "selfish old bastards" that maybe, just maybe, the reason they are free to moan openly and criticise politicians is because those selfish bastards loved their country and paid with blood for their children's freedom of thought and expression.
There are hardly any living World War 2 vets left on this Earth at this point, much less voting in this referendum. And there damn sure hasn't been a war legitimately fought for "freedom" since....
Unless you know something I don't, both my parents and my aunt are still alive...
I declare all British people in this thread exercising their right to independence to be honorary Americans. Happy independence day! God save the Queen and all that.
The pendulum is swinging back, friends. Democracy will never be defeated.
We have our own national referendum on our level of lunacy coming up in about 5 months. This doesn't exactly do anything to temper the worries of putting a neo-fascist in the White House, even if recent polls say he is self-destructing. For the people who support Trump, I don't think there is anything he could do short of slitting the throat of an infant on live television to disqualify him.
It might have helped if the Democrats hadn't selected an obvious establishment insider to put up against him...
But I would suggest that not hurling insult's at Trump's supporters and listening to them instead might be a good way to start winning them over.
The Common Market is about four fundamental freedoms of movement: that of goods, services, capital and labour.
The UK EU referendum rather clearly indicated that the UK wants other ones. Picking cherries at all your neigbours' orchards most like!
That plausibly selective freedom call was rallied mainly by Johnson and Gove. So I think one or the other should be the non-election tested PM post Cameron resignation.
This said - what really bothers me is these both these men said really horrible things about EU, plus their future ex-EU partners by proxy.
It is be a bit like an ex saying: "You are a pretty idiotic and unattractive micropenis-head. But can I have three quarters of your house anyway?"
No-one did that in real life, right? Except maybe Brexit politicians a bit...
The UK credit rating has been reduced to negative and the UK is no longer the 5th largest economy (dropping to 6th below France).
If Boris is put forward as a candidate to lead the Tories then he will win (he is currently favourite), but there is likely to be many blocking moves in place to prevent him being listed as a candidate. I think it's far more likely that they get a 'uniting candidate' with the aim of trying to unite the Tory party, who also has the advantage of not being the one that has directly slagged off the EU and the countries therein. That uniting candidate doesn't need to be a Leaver, and in fact, it would profit from not being one as many remainers do not like Boris Gove et al. Theresa May will probably the candidate most accepted by both sides.
What's interesting now is that some Tories want to wait 3-months before invoking article 50 (even Boris is quoted as saying he is in no rush) whereas the EU want to start straight away to prevent a domino effect and move on. The Scottish government are currently deciding their position and response. I'm pretty sure they will leave, more from frustration and anti-Tory feelings.
The petition for a second referendum has reached 1M signatures but that's not surprising as it could reach 16M if all remainers signed it.
Unless the EU and those who support it choose to learn something from the Brexit, for example why 52% of the voters in one of the largest member states chose to leave the union, then I predict that more countries will vote to leave.
Name-calling and shaming won't win over your political opponents, and it might just incite more people to join their side in spite. Shooting the messenger has rarely caused a message to go away, and it has never removed the root cause of the message.
52% of the British people are not racists, xenophobes, isolationists, egotists and/or imbeciles who just don't understand the issues. They are real people with real concerns about the future. Heck, how well do you think those people understood the issues who voted to remain because David Cameron told them to?
The EU is not popular with the peoples of Europe. It's as simple as that. This could either be because the EU has failed to sell itself very well, or because it is in fact, as many suggest, not functioning very well.
I hope that both the British government and the EU will try to work constructively from here, not just to secure an ordered separation between UK and EU, but also in order to bring about changes in the EU that will alleviate people's concerns. This could be the factor that brings the UK back into the EU.
Unless you know something I don't, both my parents and my aunt are still alive...
Oh word? How big was your sample size for that study?
Technically, it's not a "complete" lie. It's a rather dubious survey with a small sample size being dressed up as gospel truth by supporters of "Remain". It was this kind of thing that made it very difficult to refute the lies told by "Leave". If you want to be believed when you accuse the other side of lying, then you better make darn sure that everything you say is absolute straight up unbent truth.
And the downright hostile tone of your post reflects the tone of the campaign, which, far from winning people over, drives them deeper into the enemy camp.
True, the other side did this as well, but it was Remain's constant cries of "racist racist racist" that caused me to disown them, irrespective of my personal opinions.
It doesn't require a large sample size to show that there are many people who came through WW2 still alive*, that is simply a fact and to try and deny it would simply be another Remain lie. On the other hand, if the polls have taught us anything, it is this: people lie to pollsters.
*not that this had the slightest effect on how they voted.
The Common Market is about four fundamental freedoms of movement: that of goods, services, capital and labour.
Which is a problem. At the heart of the EU is a dogma, not pragmatism, or democracy. Free movement of Labour works fine when the countries involved are of similar wealth. But it is blatantly obvious that where there is a disparity in wealth and standard of living, then there will be mass mitigation from the poorer countries to the wealthier ones. The English know this well, since it is how they came to Britain in the first place! If you don't accept that on occasions some degree of transitional control might be needed, it's clear the infrastructure of the target country could struggle to cope, and the counties they leave could be left without essential workers.
I don't suppose it's occurred to the youths who are moaning about the "selfish old bastards" that maybe, just maybe, the reason they are free to moan openly and criticise politicians is because those selfish bastards loved their country and paid with blood for their children's freedom of thought and expression.
There are hardly any living World War 2 vets left on this Earth at this point, much less voting in this referendum. And there damn sure hasn't been a war legitimately fought for "freedom" since....
Unless you know something I don't, both my parents and my aunt are still alive...
Every living World War 2 veteran is at least in their 90s by now, and more than 500 are dying each day. So yes, statistically, there are hardly any WW2 veterans left. And when it comes to Brexit, we are talking about their children being the major voting bloc that voted to leave.
I hate it when the quote and the response is reversed, in terms of tab or indentation. Only, it tends to happen when I get the quote wrong in the first place. Not sure why this persists even post edit. But ooh, hey, hulloa - I might blame the EU for this!
Comments
The fact is the establishment where in favour of remain, couldn't conceive of loosing, and are now lashing out at voters for thier own failure.
Cameron, made "Remain" the official government position. If someone you dislike and distrust tells you to do something, then the natural reaction is to do the opposite. He was to arrogant to recognise that he wasn't elected because he was popular, he was elected because his opponent had the charisma of a dog turd.
By the way, this is how the age groups voted, so it is hardly ageist to imply that older people who aren't going to be around to reap the consequences of their actions screwed over the younger people who are. It's as plain as day:
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain
And I'll at least give David Cameron the fact that he had the good grace in the end to realize what a shit-storm he had unleashed and fell on his sword. The leader of the Brexit movement basically admitted on television today that a cornerstone of their campaign (that the money the UK was sending to the EU would go right back to the NHS) was a total goddamn lie. And he was brazen enough to say it out-loud on national television, likely because he is raving sociopath.
However all racists voted to leave.
Here is a nice collection of various disgusting groups all celebrating the outcome of this vote.
I voted to Remain.
3 key deciders on voting were apparently: age, education level and 'identifying as English'
The pendulum is swinging back, friends. Democracy will never be defeated.
They have no right anymore, they shouldn't benefit from anything that could benefit somebody else since they're gonna die in a short while anyway. And since in the end p much everything is money, they can't benefit from anything at all, better let them die than wasting ressources in keeping them alive. That's the extreme case but ultimately the result is that as you grow older you become less and less worth listening to, or even keeping alive. And if you think this should be self-imposed, the old guard stepping aside on its own because of their poor life expectancy, you just ask them to consider themselves worthless compared to the young ones.
Gotta say, I'm not a big fan of making anyone feel worthless, but I suppose this is a matter of personal opinion.
More importantly, what's even the point? These guys said the exact same thing when they were young, and in the end just became what they initially despised, simply because when they never stopped fighting for themselves.
aaaaand there's the fact that if the press and the politics are manipulating these old geezers in opposing you (to further their own goals, and I mean it's really a textbook example here, what with Mr. Johnson being eurosceptic as long as it gives him a fighting ground with Mr. Cameron), be it through obfuscation, careful selection of what to tell them or even outright lies, you really get that your ennemies are the scared, manipulated old bastards?
In a lot of countries, this sort of surprise would be met by a government crackdown, not by a solemn bow of the head. Whether the decision was right or wrong, this shows that the people here have a government that responds to them.
Most folks on this planet don't have that.
It reminds me of an old professor's anecdote about the Korean War. General Douglas MacArthur wanted to use nuclear weapons to recover the North Korean territory we had just lost to the Chinese, and Truman refused. When MacArthur persisted, Truman fired him.
MacArthur didn't try to subvert the president's order. He accepted the dismissal.
Douglas MacArthur was the most respected and accomplished general in American history, and enjoyed authority in the most powerful military on the planet. Losing him was tragic, but it was a powerful display of one of the most important tenets of our system: the civilian government's control of the military. Military coups are not a thing here. I like MacArthur, but the story of his fall is one of my favorites in American history. It makes me proud to see patriotism expressed so purely. In the United States, political power comes from electoral democracy, not the barrel of a gun.
I see the same thing here. Regardless of the merits of Brexit, Cameron's response--acceptance and resignation, without dispute--shows that the UK's democracy is just as strong.
This not only ageist, but another complete lie, based on an unrepresentative sample size of 1200. That's a much smaller sample size than the opinion polls that predicted a Remain to win by around 10%.
Maybe if Remain had tried telling the truth, rather than trying to match Leave's lies with more lies, they would have done better...
But I would suggest that not hurling insult's at Trump's supporters and listening to them instead might be a good way to start winning them over.
The UK EU referendum rather clearly indicated that the UK wants other ones. Picking cherries at all your neigbours' orchards most like!
That plausibly selective freedom call was rallied mainly by Johnson and Gove. So I think one or the other should be the non-election tested PM post Cameron resignation.
This said - what really bothers me is these both these men said really horrible things about EU, plus their future ex-EU partners by proxy.
It is be a bit like an ex saying: "You are a pretty idiotic and unattractive micropenis-head. But can I have three quarters of your house anyway?"
No-one did that in real life, right? Except maybe Brexit politicians a bit...
I think both the UK and the EU will benefit from knowing if UK should like be in the Common Market, or not.
Meanwhile, if you think EU should be a staging area for intra-Tory spat, better you voted out.
If Boris is put forward as a candidate to lead the Tories then he will win (he is currently favourite), but there is likely to be many blocking moves in place to prevent him being listed as a candidate. I think it's far more likely that they get a 'uniting candidate' with the aim of trying to unite the Tory party, who also has the advantage of not being the one that has directly slagged off the EU and the countries therein. That uniting candidate doesn't need to be a Leaver, and in fact, it would profit from not being one as many remainers do not like Boris Gove et al.
Theresa May will probably the candidate most accepted by both sides.
What's interesting now is that some Tories want to wait 3-months before invoking article 50 (even Boris is quoted as saying he is in no rush) whereas the EU want to start straight away to prevent a domino effect and move on. The Scottish government are currently deciding their position and response. I'm pretty sure they will leave, more from frustration and anti-Tory feelings.
The petition for a second referendum has reached 1M signatures but that's not surprising as it could reach 16M if all remainers signed it.
Name-calling and shaming won't win over your political opponents, and it might just incite more people to join their side in spite. Shooting the messenger has rarely caused a message to go away, and it has never removed the root cause of the message.
52% of the British people are not racists, xenophobes, isolationists, egotists and/or imbeciles who just don't understand the issues. They are real people with real concerns about the future. Heck, how well do you think those people understood the issues who voted to remain because David Cameron told them to?
The EU is not popular with the peoples of Europe. It's as simple as that. This could either be because the EU has failed to sell itself very well, or because it is in fact, as many suggest, not functioning very well.
I hope that both the British government and the EU will try to work constructively from here, not just to secure an ordered separation between UK and EU, but also in order to bring about changes in the EU that will alleviate people's concerns. This could be the factor that brings the UK back into the EU.
And the downright hostile tone of your post reflects the tone of the campaign, which, far from winning people over, drives them deeper into the enemy camp.
True, the other side did this as well, but it was Remain's constant cries of "racist racist racist" that caused me to disown them, irrespective of my personal opinions.
It doesn't require a large sample size to show that there are many people who came through WW2 still alive*, that is simply a fact and to try and deny it would simply be another Remain lie. On the other hand, if the polls have taught us anything, it is this: people lie to pollsters.
*not that this had the slightest effect on how they voted.
More genetics. My ancestors where Jacobites, and fought the English at Culloden.
That's only one argument though.
I hate it when the quote and the response is reversed, in terms of tab or indentation. Only, it tends to happen when I get the quote wrong in the first place. Not sure why this persists even post edit. But ooh, hey, hulloa - I might blame the EU for this!