Or, in a nutshell, for one man to like chocolate, and his grandson to like vanilla.
I would guess that works as long as the very similar argument is accepted if Scotland then wants to go, but I am guessing some pro-Leave Britons would not embrace Scottish emancipation exactly.
I don't tend to go: "Your country was really bad" because I doubt any nation has been totally exemplary, and ideas of consitutional democracy, human rights and self-determination are relatively young, after all. And i must say: I don't count it starting in ancient Greece in practice, because eligible "citizens" were such a minority group back then!
Of course it would have been better for, say, American Indians or Australian Aborgines or Congolese if they had not been colonized, and could have limited in-bound migration by Europeans. But unfortunately for them, sovereignty and self-determination were seen as only belonging to European powers at that time. Wrong obviously, but what's done can no longer be reversed.
I meanwhile do regret, very much a certain openly racist glee over Brexit that afflicts some individuals. It is dangerous for Britain, I believe. And very painful for those Britons that have been confronted on the street, and told "We voted you Out, now go home" when they are in fact UK citizens.
Jeremy Corbyn being tho only person who told the truth and gave a balanced opinion...
As a Finn, it's pretty natural for me to have a political crush on Corbyn. In Finland he'd make a very popular party leader for either left-wing party or Greens, and would be considered left-wing Social Democrat, really. I listened to Corbyn's EU speech, and found him measured, factual and in tune with what most must have felt: it is not an easy decision.
What outrages me in this is that when Corbyn told the plain truth before the vote: Common Market means four freedoms of movement, people included, he was slammed as a very bad politician, sabotaging Remain, utterly out of touch etc.
And then this pro-Brexit Hannan, after the vote tells: Common Market means freedom of movement also for people, and therefore our immigration will not reduce. Oh, btw, some Brexiters will be up for a disappointent. And that's a better and more desriable politician, then?
The idea that distortion of truth is a necessary and fine quality in a politician is sadly cynical indeed.
Edit: Indeed, Farage owning up that the "Let's fund NHS with 350 Million" was a "mistake" (=outright distortion of facts) only after the vote, when that advert had been splashed all-over town obviously much before is another example of absolutely chilling cynicism.
The vultures circling my computer desk are now fighting with the flies. which have grown larger than cats. I write this report in a dishevelled state of permanent terror as regurgitated vulture parts spatter about me. It is only a matter of time before one of my mutated countrymen discover me as they shamble from place to place, looking for food, and Leave supporters to shout at.
If only the people had listened to the young. The young who overwhelmingly did not bother to actually go out and vote with only a 36% turnout. If only people had understood and embraced the wisdom of their apathy!
But it's too late now. The pound has fallen drastically less than predicted, and already recovered to a level above February's, the FTSE continues to exist after rapidly recovering much of the losses, France continues to honour the Touquet agreement. Obama confirms that the "special relationship" continues very much in place. Several non-EU countries begin talking about bi-lateral trade deals with the UK, and the promised meteor impact continues to elude us.
Yes, all the dire, terrible warnings of "things probably not changing very much" are coming to a chilling conclusion, with much of the country suffering from crippling levels of rectal pain as they rush to condemn democracy and accuse everyone of being super racists.
Now we're on our way out of an authoritarian oligarchy, everyone continues to tiptoe around the fact that soon we will have a terrible and unpleasant fate ahead of us: Our votes in general elections will actually matter, and that we cannot rely on an external totalitarian state to keep our own government in check.
Also Boris Johnson has begun stealing people's pets for blood sacrifices. We keep asking him to stop, but he's just muttering something about the NHS, it's all very awkward.
The European Union was formed in the first place because the wars on the European subcontinent plunged the world to the gates of hell twice in the course of 20 years, because of the insane nationalistic tribalism and treaties during WW1, and WW2 was a direct result of the aftermath of the first. In fact, it can be argued that the last 60-70 years when Europe was relatively united as a series of nation states is the only time in history where there hasn't been endless war, death and destruction. Because it stopped placing importance on imaginary lines in the sand. So forget all the financial, economic and social implications. The European Union's greatest accomplishment was the prevention of further wanton death and destruction on a unimaginable scale. Winston Churchill himself as a adamant supporter of such an alliance.
Actually, Churchill only supported the EU after he had tried and failed to take the UK into the USA. Maybe why the French told him to get lost.
But I don't really believe the EU had done anything to prevent wars in general, there have still been plenty that the UK has been involved in since it joined the EU: Vietnam, The Falkands, Kuwait, Afghanistan and Iraq, and several others too. And there are plenty of countries that are not in the EU that have managed to not have wars.
And it really is the fault of EU expansionism that Russia has returned to belligerence.
Actually, Churchill only supported the EU after he had tried and failed to take the UK into the USA. Maybe why the French told him to get lost.
But I don't really believe the EU had done anything to prevent wars in general, there have still been plenty that the UK has been involved in since it joined the EU: Vietnam, The Falkands, Kuwait, Afghanistan and Iraq, and several others too. And there are plenty of countries that are not in the EU that have managed to not have wars.
And it really is the fault of EU expansionism that Russia has returned to belligerence.
There haven't been any conflicts that pushed humanity to the precipice of annihilation like the World Wars. And there is every reason to believe without the Marshall Plan and the slow roll towards a somewhat united Europe it could have happened again.
Actually according to what I was told in my youth, it was NATO that secured peace in Europe. The European Economic Community secured prosperity. Of course back then there was no European Union. In fact, during the campaign leading up to the 1986 referendum on the Common Market, which opponents of the EEC called "The Union Package", then Prime Minister Poul Schlütter assured the Danish population that "The Union is stone dead".
He knew very well that the EEC was scheduled to become the European Union in 1992. Lies and deceptions were rife on both sides even back then.
I fail to see how NATO "expansionism" prompted Russia's aggressive moves. It's hardly expansionism when every NATO member enters the group voluntarily. It's not like NATO rushed in and started demanding that the Ukrainians join. It was Russia that tried to force its will on a foreign country; not NATO.
Russia might not have liked the idea of Ukraine joining NATO, but it wasn't Russia's decision. It was Ukraine's.
Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage are collectively full of more shit than just about anyone I've ever seen. Farage actually had the balls to go on TV the day after the vote and ADMIT that the Leave campaign flat-out lied about the money currently going to the EU going back into the NHS. But he didn't "personally" approve that ad campaign. Sure. He is now stating that the British economy was heading for a recession anyway, and has nothing to do with the Brexit vote. How convenient.
Johnson now realizes he's going to be tasked with the mess he created, and is already equivocating and saying that they want a good relationship with EU, despite the fact that they are leaving it. In other words, reap the benefits, but contribute nothing. The rest of Europe will be totally justified when they tell him to screw off, and lay in the bed that has been made.
I find this is a common conservative trait here in the US as well. They rail against government, but only government services that go to "other" people. God forbid anyone ever touch THEIR pensions or Social Security or Medicare. The conservative party in Britain is banking on the same magic fairy dust.
Scotland is also threatening a veto, and there are already 3 million signatures to a petition to rehold the referendum.
If I was the EU, I'd be turning round to him and saying "No. Invoke article 50 OR Take Schengen and the Euro... You've messed around enough, it's all OR nothing..."
If I was the EU, I'd be turning round to him and saying "No. Invoke article 50 OR Take Schengen and the Euro... You've messed around enough, it's all OR nothing..."
Indeed, how can other European countries not take it as a slap in the face?? And then to have Brexit leaders turn around and act as if it was no big deal is the height of hypocrisy. If you're gonna talk about independence, then let's see some of that "pulling oneself up by the bootstraps" that right-wing politicians so often allude to. You wanted to stand on your own, then stand. If not, you reveal yourself for the frauds you clearly are.
@jjstraka34: The other European countries need not necessarily take is as a slap in the face (though I can definitely see why they would). One of the big factors in the "Leave" vote was not dislike of Europe, but the dislike of the EU's free immigration policies. It's more of a slap in the face to Muslim countries than Europe.
The lack of leadership and management of this situation by the Tories is really crazy ...
It's clear they haven't got a clue what to do - as signalled by Boris backtracking on immigration, and also suggesting we will leave but not rush to invoke article 50, and then to infer we will also get our cake and eat it on money/laws. More spin, BS and lies, if you ask me. He's not authorised to commit to these things as he isn't the leader of the Tories or the PM (yet).
Boris also said Project Fear is over. My response would be Project Fear is becoming a reality. You've screwed up the economy (knocking on to Europe and the Global markets) and you are still screwing it up - things are getting worse day-by-day and now you all want us to wait whilst you are bickering amongst yourselves. There are even suggestions that David Cameron's timescale is not going to be followed and they may wait until after October BEFORE starting the leadership campaigns.
Meanwhile, Labour (fearing a quick election) are scrabbling around because whilst labour voters like Jeremy, many in his shadow cabinet don't think he will win an election. They should equally be ashamed - yes, they may not have confidence in Jeremy but the voters DID, and they should ask themselves if NOW is the right time to do this. If all of this hadn't happened then they'd be happy to keep Jeremy through until 2020 (the next general election).
The only stable thing in all of this is the Lib-Dems who have declared outright that they would scrap the whole thing and continue on with the EU.
The one to watch is Nicola Sturgeon. The only person that has come out of this mess with a clear mandate and drive & capability to force change.
The EU leaders seem a little more understanding of the situation now but I'm not sure how long anyone can stomach this. All of the UK rubbish is directly impacting Europe and everyone needs to move on. If the Tories had had a plan, a way forward, and could have started implementing it from the decision point then things would likely be bad but they wouldn't be in freefall. Day-by-day the frustrations that remain voters have are being magnified.
As usual, the internet provides the best (and funniest) summations:
Jane Austen:
Source - Will Brambley: An interesting fact: my back-of-the-envelope calculations suggest by the time we actually leave the EU, a majority of the UK will want to Remain, even if nobody changes their mind.
It'll take at least 2-3 years to negotiate us leaving. In that time around 1.5 million UK citizens will die and 2 million will turn 18. With 18 year olds about 75% in favour of the EU and those 65+ 60/40 against it, Remain will gain just under a million supporters and Leave will lose about a third of a million. Even if nobody changes their mind, by the time the thing we voted for comes to pass, public opinion will be against it. Demographics are terrifying, and politics is terrifyingly short-term.
Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage are collectively full of more shit than just about anyone I've ever seen. Farage actually had the balls to go on TV the day after the vote and ADMIT that the Leave campaign flat-out lied about the money currently going to the EU going back into the NHS. But he didn't "personally" approve that ad campaign. Sure. He is now stating that the British economy was heading for a recession anyway, and has nothing to do with the Brexit vote. How convenient.
Johnson now realizes he's going to be tasked with the mess he created, and is already equivocating and saying that they want a good relationship with EU, despite the fact that they are leaving it. In other words, reap the benefits, but contribute nothing. The rest of Europe will be totally justified when they tell him to screw off, and lay in the bed that has been made.
I find this is a common conservative trait here in the US as well. They rail against government, but only government services that go to "other" people. God forbid anyone ever touch THEIR pensions or Social Security or Medicare. The conservative party in Britain is banking on the same magic fairy dust.
Scotland is also threatening a veto, and there are already 3 million signatures to a petition to rehold the referendum.
Let's break this down.
1: Nigel Farage is not part of the Leave campaign, has no responsibility for the Leave campaign, and never made that claim himself. "Not his circus, not his monkeys" is in full effect here.
2: Boris Johnson ran the Leave campaign in a bid to further his political career. He would probably have preferred we stay in the EU while taking David Cameron's position rather than the political minefield he stands to inherit.
This said, I truly hope that your prediction is correct. A no-deal EU agreement would hit Britain with a (mutual) 10% tariff at worst. This would actually work out better for the UK (thanks to the trade deficit), and be better in keeping with the mandate of the population voting against mass immigration. Unfortunately if Boris gets into power, he's more likely to opt into the Norway style agreement. Far less dangerous than staying in the EU, but not really in keeping with the will of the people.
3: Scotland cannot veto, as the Commons has the power to overrule such a veto. Worst case, they could just as easily dissolve either the act that gives the Scottish Parliament power, or the act that makes us a member of the EU, neither of which Scotland can do anything about. The 3 million signatures are, incidentally, courtesy of 4chan.
Boris also said Project Fear is over. My response would be Project Fear is becoming a reality. You've screwed up the economy (knocking on to Europe and the Global markets) and you are still screwing it up - things are getting worse day-by-day and now you all want us to wait whilst you are bickering amongst yourselves. There are even suggestions that David Cameron's timescale is not going to be followed and they may wait until after October BEFORE starting the leadership campaigns.
The one to watch is Nicola Sturgeon. The only person that has come out of this mess with a clear mandate and drive & capability to force change.
Note that literally nothing about the economy has actually changed at this point. The only thing screwing up the economy is marketplace uncertainty, which the current state of political flux is worsening at the moment. Once they settle down, the marketplace will follow suit.
I disagree on Sturgeon, this is posturing at best, suicide at worst. Independence at this time could only hurt Scotland as it will find itself out of the EU and the UK, forced to switch to the Euro, and with very little to offer economically at present.
Perhaps unfortunately, the real person who came out of this with "mandate, drive, and capability to force change" has turned out to be Nigel Farage. Although not even an MP, his party was a key player in forcing this to a referendum, gathered a good deal of support for the Leave side, and can be one of the few politicians to arguably come out of this better off than they went in. I expect the political landscape to change drastically come the next general election, particularly if the Conservatives don't do a good job in the coming months.
Referendums like this are going to be a challenge in that respect though. Canada had a similar issue with one of our provinces wanting to split (the most recent referendum regarding it was a 49.5/50.5 split). Our federal government ended up passing legislation called the Clarity Act, but even that only went as far as saying a "clear majority" would be needed for any kind of referendum like that in the future (it did not define what exactly constituted a clear majority).
Picking a point and saying "this is the percentage needed to before the referendum can be considered representative of the majority" seems to be historically easier said then done. I'm not that familiar with British politics but I'm familiar enough with politics in general to say that I can't imagine that a government stating that it would only accept a referendum result of (for instance) 55% or more would have gone over well.
Turnout for this referendum was unanimously agreed upon (until Remain lost) as being huge, and note that the Conservatives are currently ruling on around 24% of the popular vote, or ~76% of people voting against them out of the 66.1% that voted.
With 72% turnout and over 37% of the total voting population actually voting in favour of leave, that's not actually too far off a certain other movement that occurred back in the 1700s in favour of a more democratic alternative, except Brexit has a clearer majority.
Comments
I don't tend to go: "Your country was really bad" because I doubt any nation has been totally exemplary, and ideas of consitutional democracy, human rights and self-determination are relatively young, after all. And i must say: I don't count it starting in ancient Greece in practice, because eligible "citizens" were such a minority group back then!
Of course it would have been better for, say, American Indians or Australian Aborgines or Congolese if they had not been colonized, and could have limited in-bound migration by Europeans. But unfortunately for them, sovereignty and self-determination were seen as only belonging to European powers at that time. Wrong obviously, but what's done can no longer be reversed.
I meanwhile do regret, very much a certain openly racist glee over Brexit that afflicts some individuals. It is dangerous for Britain, I believe. And very painful for those Britons that have been confronted on the street, and told "We voted you Out, now go home" when they are in fact UK citizens.
What outrages me in this is that when Corbyn told the plain truth before the vote: Common Market means four freedoms of movement, people included, he was slammed as a very bad politician, sabotaging Remain, utterly out of touch etc.
And then this pro-Brexit Hannan, after the vote tells: Common Market means freedom of movement also for people, and therefore our immigration will not reduce. Oh, btw, some Brexiters will be up for a disappointent. And that's a better and more desriable politician, then?
The idea that distortion of truth is a necessary and fine quality in a politician is sadly cynical indeed.
Edit: Indeed, Farage owning up that the "Let's fund NHS with 350 Million" was a "mistake" (=outright distortion of facts) only after the vote, when that advert had been splashed all-over town obviously much before is another example of absolutely chilling cynicism.
The vultures circling my computer desk are now fighting with the flies. which have grown larger than cats. I write this report in a dishevelled state of permanent terror as regurgitated vulture parts spatter about me. It is only a matter of time before one of my mutated countrymen discover me as they shamble from place to place, looking for food, and Leave supporters to shout at.
If only the people had listened to the young. The young who overwhelmingly did not bother to actually go out and vote with only a 36% turnout. If only people had understood and embraced the wisdom of their apathy!
But it's too late now. The pound has fallen drastically less than predicted, and already recovered to a level above February's, the FTSE continues to exist after rapidly recovering much of the losses, France continues to honour the Touquet agreement. Obama confirms that the "special relationship" continues very much in place. Several non-EU countries begin talking about bi-lateral trade deals with the UK, and the promised meteor impact continues to elude us.
Yes, all the dire, terrible warnings of "things probably not changing very much" are coming to a chilling conclusion, with much of the country suffering from crippling levels of rectal pain as they rush to condemn democracy and accuse everyone of being super racists.
Now we're on our way out of an authoritarian oligarchy, everyone continues to tiptoe around the fact that soon we will have a terrible and unpleasant fate ahead of us: Our votes in general elections will actually matter, and that we cannot rely on an external totalitarian state to keep our own government in check.
Also Boris Johnson has begun stealing people's pets for blood sacrifices. We keep asking him to stop, but he's just muttering something about the NHS, it's all very awkward.
But I don't really believe the EU had done anything to prevent wars in general, there have still been plenty that the UK has been involved in since it joined the EU: Vietnam, The Falkands, Kuwait, Afghanistan and Iraq, and several others too. And there are plenty of countries that are not in the EU that have managed to not have wars.
And it really is the fault of EU expansionism that Russia has returned to belligerence.
I do concede that without the British armed forces several EU countries, including Finland, are in danger of attack from Russia.
He knew very well that the EEC was scheduled to become the European Union in 1992. Lies and deceptions were rife on both sides even back then.
Russia might not have liked the idea of Ukraine joining NATO, but it wasn't Russia's decision. It was Ukraine's.
Britain will still honour its commitment to aid another NATO country if it is attacked.
The North Atlantic Treaty Organization includes non EU members like Canada, U.S. and Turkey.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-stocks-idUSKCN0ZC12G
Johnson now realizes he's going to be tasked with the mess he created, and is already equivocating and saying that they want a good relationship with EU, despite the fact that they are leaving it. In other words, reap the benefits, but contribute nothing. The rest of Europe will be totally justified when they tell him to screw off, and lay in the bed that has been made.
I find this is a common conservative trait here in the US as well. They rail against government, but only government services that go to "other" people. God forbid anyone ever touch THEIR pensions or Social Security or Medicare. The conservative party in Britain is banking on the same magic fairy dust.
Scotland is also threatening a veto, and there are already 3 million signatures to a petition to rehold the referendum.
We've voted leave, it's done and decided. Now actually do something about it. These days of indecision are an embarrassment to us as a nation.
It's clear they haven't got a clue what to do - as signalled by Boris backtracking on immigration, and also suggesting we will leave but not rush to invoke article 50, and then to infer we will also get our cake and eat it on money/laws. More spin, BS and lies, if you ask me. He's not authorised to commit to these things as he isn't the leader of the Tories or the PM (yet).
Boris also said Project Fear is over. My response would be Project Fear is becoming a reality. You've screwed up the economy (knocking on to Europe and the Global markets) and you are still screwing it up - things are getting worse day-by-day and now you all want us to wait whilst you are bickering amongst yourselves. There are even suggestions that David Cameron's timescale is not going to be followed and they may wait until after October BEFORE starting the leadership campaigns.
Meanwhile, Labour (fearing a quick election) are scrabbling around because whilst labour voters like Jeremy, many in his shadow cabinet don't think he will win an election. They should equally be ashamed - yes, they may not have confidence in Jeremy but the voters DID, and they should ask themselves if NOW is the right time to do this. If all of this hadn't happened then they'd be happy to keep Jeremy through until 2020 (the next general election).
The only stable thing in all of this is the Lib-Dems who have declared outright that they would scrap the whole thing and continue on with the EU.
The one to watch is Nicola Sturgeon. The only person that has come out of this mess with a clear mandate and drive & capability to force change.
The EU leaders seem a little more understanding of the situation now but I'm not sure how long anyone can stomach this. All of the UK rubbish is directly impacting Europe and everyone needs to move on. If the Tories had had a plan, a way forward, and could have started implementing it from the decision point then things would likely be bad but they wouldn't be in freefall. Day-by-day the frustrations that remain voters have are being magnified.
GET ON WITH IT, NOW!
Jane Austen:
Source - Will Brambley:
An interesting fact: my back-of-the-envelope calculations suggest by the time we actually leave the EU, a majority of the UK will want to Remain, even if nobody changes their mind.
It'll take at least 2-3 years to negotiate us leaving. In that time around 1.5 million UK citizens will die and 2 million will turn 18. With 18 year olds about 75% in favour of the EU and those 65+ 60/40 against it, Remain will gain just under a million supporters and Leave will lose about a third of a million.
Even if nobody changes their mind, by the time the thing we voted for comes to pass, public opinion will be against it. Demographics are terrifying, and politics is terrifyingly short-term.
We didn't actually mean...
1: Nigel Farage is not part of the Leave campaign, has no responsibility for the Leave campaign, and never made that claim himself. "Not his circus, not his monkeys" is in full effect here.
2: Boris Johnson ran the Leave campaign in a bid to further his political career. He would probably have preferred we stay in the EU while taking David Cameron's position rather than the political minefield he stands to inherit.
This said, I truly hope that your prediction is correct. A no-deal EU agreement would hit Britain with a (mutual) 10% tariff at worst. This would actually work out better for the UK (thanks to the trade deficit), and be better in keeping with the mandate of the population voting against mass immigration. Unfortunately if Boris gets into power, he's more likely to opt into the Norway style agreement. Far less dangerous than staying in the EU, but not really in keeping with the will of the people.
3: Scotland cannot veto, as the Commons has the power to overrule such a veto. Worst case, they could just as easily dissolve either the act that gives the Scottish Parliament power, or the act that makes us a member of the EU, neither of which Scotland can do anything about. The 3 million signatures are, incidentally, courtesy of 4chan. Note that literally nothing about the economy has actually changed at this point. The only thing screwing up the economy is marketplace uncertainty, which the current state of political flux is worsening at the moment. Once they settle down, the marketplace will follow suit.
I disagree on Sturgeon, this is posturing at best, suicide at worst. Independence at this time could only hurt Scotland as it will find itself out of the EU and the UK, forced to switch to the Euro, and with very little to offer economically at present.
Perhaps unfortunately, the real person who came out of this with "mandate, drive, and capability to force change" has turned out to be Nigel Farage. Although not even an MP, his party was a key player in forcing this to a referendum, gathered a good deal of support for the Leave side, and can be one of the few politicians to arguably come out of this better off than they went in. I expect the political landscape to change drastically come the next general election, particularly if the Conservatives don't do a good job in the coming months.
Picking a point and saying "this is the percentage needed to before the referendum can be considered representative of the majority" seems to be historically easier said then done. I'm not that familiar with British politics but I'm familiar enough with politics in general to say that I can't imagine that a government stating that it would only accept a referendum result of (for instance) 55% or more would have gone over well.
Yes, he did state that what he would do would be to spend the membership fee currently being paid on community projects.
No, he did not lie about the money, nor how much money there would be as a result, merely that such money would be better spent domestically.
Blame Johnson all you like, but Farage really didn't have anything to do with it. Turnout for this referendum was unanimously agreed upon (until Remain lost) as being huge, and note that the Conservatives are currently ruling on around 24% of the popular vote, or ~76% of people voting against them out of the 66.1% that voted.
With 72% turnout and over 37% of the total voting population actually voting in favour of leave, that's not actually too far off a certain other movement that occurred back in the 1700s in favour of a more democratic alternative, except Brexit has a clearer majority.