Wow i got seriously out of loop here as i had to go on an unexpected trip (still am). I'm just gonna thow an idea here that i think hasn't been mentioned. Toggles. No need to find one solution as a compromise of different views. There can conveniently be up to 2 or 3 toggles (remembered to be default by the ui) with the most desired layouts for the information area.
1.3 was decent, but it wasn't perfect. There are a few small problems with 1.3:
- The four separate information boxes are a bit unwieldy, especially if some are really full, and others practically empty. If you're looking for information on, say, armor values against specific types in a field that is only 3-4 rows high, and has lots of information in there, it's not convenient to read. - The ornaments cause some of the values to become so small or overlap with their surroundings, that they become really hard to read. - Attacks per round is stuffed away somewhere, without being made clear.
Add that 2.x adds item comparison. While some people may not like this, others do, so it should not be completely removed. Even if it's made optional, there should be room for it in the UI.
I like the four boxes being combined into a single box that lists all the information underneath each other. While scrolling is likely still a necessity, you should at least be able to see, say, everything related to armor at once.
By having them as a single large box, this box could also be used for item comparison output. Normally it lists your armor, health, attack, damage and APR, but when you pick up an item that can be equipped, it instead lists the name of that item, with all values that it changes underneath, improved values in green, decreased values in red. Underneath that is a second paragraph that lists the currently equipped item, along with the old values, green where the old values are better, red where the new values are better.
The icons currently used aren't specifically typical for the values that they represent, so hopefully they can be replaced with icons that allow the numbers to use almost the full width of the icon's inside without overlapping, allowing the text to be bigger and clearer to read. I'm personally hoping that's still possible by keeping the icons left of the textbox, but that could be a problem width wise, and as some people have mentioned, it may look confusing with the text directly adjacent without lining up. The icons above the text could also work, I guess.
It would be nice if a 5th icon for APR could be added, but if not, then it's not the end of the world. With having a single textbox, APR could at least be given it's own entry in said textbox.
I don't like the idea of having attack and damage being included in the same icon. Dualwielding is certainly something optional, and most characters won't be dualwielding. Stuffing both values in the same icon makes them needlessly crampy. I prefer having the mainhand and offhand values for attack in one icon and for damage in another icon.
To quote my own post a couple of pages back here: “To use the right wording, I’m not saying to revert back to 1.3, I’m saying to use it as a model for what people found comfortable before.”
Using ver.1.3 is a good way to explain both what I like and dislike about purposed changes going forward.
To quote my own post again: Ok, after getting lost in all these ideas for days, I went into ver. 1.3 this morning to try and remember just what it is that I actually use there, what’s important to me.
Using Armor Class as an example:
I like much better having the Armor Class icon beside the corresponding text, as it is in ver. 1.3.
-My eyes find the familiar, classic Armor Class icon, I see my current armor class there at a glance.
-If I want to remember how much AC the worn piece of armor is giving me I grab it with my mouse and lift it up, watching what happens in the icon window. If I want more information, I can just slide my eyes farther right and the text is right next to it. This text changes at the same time that the numbers in the icon does. Slick.
-There is no lag, no drag, no extra windows popping up or yellow lights blinking over my parties portraits to distract me.
Moving the pieces around in inventory feels smooth.
-There is no need for any additional text under or around the icons to identify what they are. The information is right there in the little scroll that pops up when you hover over the icon. (Amor Class) Iconic and convenient.
I see no need to get rid of the scroll, then try to shove in extra text around the icons instead. Nor to try and get rid of the icons and use only text instead.
If a change has taken away more of the feel of playing a Baldur’s Gate game, or makes my gameplay more difficult, less intuitive, distracting for me, I believe my questions are valid.
I am well aware that it will not be “reverted” back. I am well aware that it will not come back “as is”.
At this point, I am just trying to figure out how it can be adjusted to make it a satisfying gameplay experience. Just like everyone else here is doing.
Here's another layout, which was based on one of @Mr2150 's designs. It's a pretty big departure for sure, but maybe has some merit.
Icon Box:
On one hand, it has the hindrance that not all of the icons will be visible all the time, especially as your breakdowns get longer. On the other, the breakdowns are once again directly next to their corresponding stat icons, like in Four Square.
I don't like the very wide name/class bar at the top. the values just sit there randomly.
The icons in the text could work if they'd all appear most of the time. However, it's quite likely that THAC0 and Damage are out of sight most of the time, and having to constantly scroll down to see them will be annoying.
I think another advantage of having the icons at the top is that the frames on either side of the textbox can be re-added. Not only do they add ornamentation, they also provide some breathing space next to the offhand and ring slots.
Whilst it maximises the space for text, has the advantage of great alignment (and no need for extra labels), at the start of the game the text box will be pretty empty and it wastes space. At the end of the game, the chance that the Armor Class / THACO / DAMAGE spaces are 6-lines + tall means that a lot will fall out the bottom of the text box - especially if you are dual wielding.
A nice concept - for sure - but not so practical.
Maybe it could have toggles for each heading so you can toggle the summaries on/off...
Here's another layout, which was based on one of @Mr2150 's designs. It's a pretty big departure for sure, but maybe has some merit.
Icon Box:
On one hand, it has the hindrance that not all of the icons will be visible all the time, especially as your breakdowns get longer. On the other, the breakdowns are once again directly next to their corresponding stat icons, like in Four Square.
I don’t remember seeing that one. But then there is a lot happening fast here.
That one is visually appealing to me. It has the four familiar icons showing at once across from the their corresponding information. It adds more icons by scrolling down for people who want more. It has labels, for those that want them.
As for armor, keep in mind the details are at least as important as the big value, if not moreso.
Studded Leather improves AC by 3, Hide improves AC by 4.
However, Studded Leather provides an additional +2 vs slashing, and +1 vs piercing/missile. Hide provides a -2 to piercing missile.
For Crushing, Hide has a total of 4, beating Studded Leather's total of 3. Hide wins by 1 point. For Slashing, Studded Leather has a total of 5, beating Hide's total of 4. Studded Leather wins by 1 point. For Piercing/Missile, Studded Leather has a total of 4, beating Hide's total of 2. Studded Leather wins by 2 points.
While Hide has a better base AC, Studded Leather is overall clearly better. There are more such examples, like the Full Plate Armor (AC 1) being better than the Practical Defense (AC 0).
I don't like the very wide name/class bar at the top. the values just sit there randomly.
I like that it provides some extra space for ornamentation on the top right (where I just pasted a mirrored version of the top-left ornamentation because I can't draw).
Maybe it would look less empty if it had more information? Like name, race, and class?
Also keep in mind that some class names can get pretty long, especially multiclass names.
The newest one isn't bad except for the fact that you'd probably have to scroll down to see Thaco and APR if we add that icon back. I suppose toggles could work like Mr2150 put in as long as the basic information was obvious when the details weren't visible, but that does seem to somewhat defeat the point of having icons.
I think I still prefer Horizontal One Square, but I could certainly work with the new one and maybe with some fiddling, it could be even better. The top rectangle does seem a little empty but some extra art might fix that.
Maybe the horizontal extra and OPTIONAL toggles could be added to that... for example, with the HP icon at the top, I'm not worried about seeing the breakdown of it until I level up. So I'd close that breakdown as I'd be more interested in more detail for THACO and Damage.
Yeah - that's it ... I kept flicking between the different versions until I found that bit... The fact I didn't notice it suggests (to me) that it 'works' on some level.
Okay, I think @Mr2150 's Horizontal One Square with optional toggles is definitely my favorite so far. And keeping the new balanced ornamentation (or adding to it) is a nice bonus.
I am curious about how this one would look with the item comparison screen for those people who like that option. And I'd be up for changing the damage icon from the spiked circle to the star discussed earlier as well.
I am curious about how this one would look with the item comparison screen for those people who like that option.
I imagine it would be something similar to what @Dee suggested in one of his mockups, e.g. the text in the big box would be replaced with detailed comparison information:
The stat numbers in the icons could also show the difference, of course.
@Adul I was more wondering whether all of it would fit without scrolling. But now that I actually think about it, if we're only showing relevant information it shouldn't be an issue.
It's worth noting the 'optional toggles' bit is completely viable in the new UI. The code for it already exists as it's exactly how the new journal works... click a quest, the detail appears below it. Click the quest again and the detail disappears... and the whole lot is in a one scrollbar text box.
I am curious about how this one would look with the item comparison screen for those people who like that option.
I imagine it would be something similar to what @Dee suggested in one of his mockups, e.g. the text in the big box would be replaced with detailed comparison information:
The stat numbers in the icons could also show the difference, of course.
@deltago I actually asked the same question above and while Dee is not currently around to confirm it, we're thinking it would look a lot like the quoted mock up (but obviously with the icons on top) and potentially with the numbers in the icons changing as well. Unless someone comes up with something better, of course.
I also have a completely unrelated question. Is that blank space underneath the clothing color box actually used for anything or is it just where the other color box used to be?
I'm honestly not sure why they removed the 2nd box since now it kind of just looks empty and if nothing else is going there, I'd prefer to have the space filled in more like it is on the left side.
@Ratatoskr589 You're right, it's currently empty and doesn't do anything. I suppose it's because now clicking on the color button now opens a separate color setting window, while previously it only opened a color swatch table while still remaining in the inventory.
I see no reason why the other color button should be absent, though. They could put it back where it used to be and have it open the same color setting window that the other one does.
Comments
- The four separate information boxes are a bit unwieldy, especially if some are really full, and others practically empty. If you're looking for information on, say, armor values against specific types in a field that is only 3-4 rows high, and has lots of information in there, it's not convenient to read.
- The ornaments cause some of the values to become so small or overlap with their surroundings, that they become really hard to read.
- Attacks per round is stuffed away somewhere, without being made clear.
Add that 2.x adds item comparison. While some people may not like this, others do, so it should not be completely removed. Even if it's made optional, there should be room for it in the UI.
I like the four boxes being combined into a single box that lists all the information underneath each other. While scrolling is likely still a necessity, you should at least be able to see, say, everything related to armor at once.
By having them as a single large box, this box could also be used for item comparison output. Normally it lists your armor, health, attack, damage and APR, but when you pick up an item that can be equipped, it instead lists the name of that item, with all values that it changes underneath, improved values in green, decreased values in red. Underneath that is a second paragraph that lists the currently equipped item, along with the old values, green where the old values are better, red where the new values are better.
The icons currently used aren't specifically typical for the values that they represent, so hopefully they can be replaced with icons that allow the numbers to use almost the full width of the icon's inside without overlapping, allowing the text to be bigger and clearer to read. I'm personally hoping that's still possible by keeping the icons left of the textbox, but that could be a problem width wise, and as some people have mentioned, it may look confusing with the text directly adjacent without lining up. The icons above the text could also work, I guess.
It would be nice if a 5th icon for APR could be added, but if not, then it's not the end of the world. With having a single textbox, APR could at least be given it's own entry in said textbox.
I don't like the idea of having attack and damage being included in the same icon. Dualwielding is certainly something optional, and most characters won't be dualwielding. Stuffing both values in the same icon makes them needlessly crampy. I prefer having the mainhand and offhand values for attack in one icon and for damage in another icon.
To quote my own post a couple of pages back here:
“To use the right wording, I’m not saying to revert back to 1.3, I’m saying to use it as a model for what people found comfortable before.”
Using ver.1.3 is a good way to explain both what I like and dislike about purposed changes going forward.
To quote my own post again:
Ok, after getting lost in all these ideas for days, I went into ver. 1.3 this morning to try and remember just what it is that I actually use there, what’s important to me.
Using Armor Class as an example:
I like much better having the Armor Class icon beside the corresponding text, as it is in ver. 1.3.
-My eyes find the familiar, classic Armor Class icon, I see my current armor class there at a glance.
-If I want to remember how much AC the worn piece of armor is giving me I grab it with my mouse and lift it up, watching what happens in the icon window. If I want more information, I can just slide my eyes farther right and the text is right next to it. This text changes at the same time that the numbers in the icon does. Slick.
-There is no lag, no drag, no extra windows popping up or yellow lights blinking over my parties portraits to distract me.
Moving the pieces around in inventory feels smooth.
-There is no need for any additional text under or around the icons to identify what they are. The information is right there in the little scroll that pops up when you hover over the icon. (Amor Class) Iconic and convenient.
I see no need to get rid of the scroll, then try to shove in extra text around the icons instead. Nor to try and get rid of the icons and use only text instead.
If a change has taken away more of the feel of playing a Baldur’s Gate game, or makes my gameplay more difficult, less intuitive, distracting for me, I believe my questions are valid.
I am well aware that it will not be “reverted” back. I am well aware that it will not come back “as is”.
At this point, I am just trying to figure out how it can be adjusted to make it a satisfying gameplay experience. Just like everyone else here is doing.
Icon Box:
On one hand, it has the hindrance that not all of the icons will be visible all the time, especially as your breakdowns get longer. On the other, the breakdowns are once again directly next to their corresponding stat icons, like in Four Square.
The icons in the text could work if they'd all appear most of the time. However, it's quite likely that THAC0 and Damage are out of sight most of the time, and having to constantly scroll down to see them will be annoying.
I think another advantage of having the icons at the top is that the frames on either side of the textbox can be re-added. Not only do they add ornamentation, they also provide some breathing space next to the offhand and ring slots.
A nice concept - for sure - but not so practical.
Maybe it could have toggles for each heading so you can toggle the summaries on/off...
I don’t remember seeing that one. But then there is a lot happening fast here.
That one is visually appealing to me. It has the four familiar icons showing at once across from the their corresponding information. It adds more icons by scrolling down for people who want more. It has labels, for those that want them.
I like it.
Studded Leather improves AC by 3, Hide improves AC by 4.
However, Studded Leather provides an additional +2 vs slashing, and +1 vs piercing/missile. Hide provides a -2 to piercing missile.
For Crushing, Hide has a total of 4, beating Studded Leather's total of 3. Hide wins by 1 point.
For Slashing, Studded Leather has a total of 5, beating Hide's total of 4. Studded Leather wins by 1 point.
For Piercing/Missile, Studded Leather has a total of 4, beating Hide's total of 2. Studded Leather wins by 2 points.
While Hide has a better base AC, Studded Leather is overall clearly better. There are more such examples, like the Full Plate Armor (AC 1) being better than the Practical Defense (AC 0).
Maybe it would look less empty if it had more information? Like name, race, and class?
Also keep in mind that some class names can get pretty long, especially multiclass names.
I think I still prefer Horizontal One Square, but I could certainly work with the new one and maybe with some fiddling, it could be even better. The top rectangle does seem a little empty but some extra art might fix that.
Maybe the horizontal extra and OPTIONAL toggles could be added to that... for example, with the HP icon at the top, I'm not worried about seeing the breakdown of it until I level up. So I'd close that breakdown as I'd be more interested in more detail for THACO and Damage.
With some added effort on the visual designers' part, the ornamentation could even be extended on both sides horizontally for a nice effect.
I am curious about how this one would look with the item comparison screen for those people who like that option. And I'd be up for changing the damage icon from the spiked circle to the star discussed earlier as well.
The stat numbers in the icons could also show the difference, of course.
The correct response phrase is: "The red fox chases the swan."
I'm honestly not sure why they removed the 2nd box since now it kind of just looks empty and if nothing else is going there, I'd prefer to have the space filled in more like it is on the left side.
I see no reason why the other color button should be absent, though. They could put it back where it used to be and have it open the same color setting window that the other one does.