I greatly prefer having the icons always visible across the top. While I still think people are trying to shove too much information into what is an inventory screen, armor class, hp, thaco, and damage should always be visible.
I don't think we are trying to put more information into the screen than is already there - we are just trying to make the information more accessible and practical to use.
The current UI shows ~16 lines of information in 4 scrollbars... we have probably just a little less lines but in only 1 scrollbar - it may look like more - but it really isn't.
If you have chosen to use the toggle, the second screen never appears when you pick up an item?
If the toggle is off and you equip an item like bracers that increase your Thaco, the white numbers in the icons and corresponding text changes to reflect the changes made to your character?
The little down arrow on the Hit Points field bar in the standard screen is a toggle to open and close that field and all the other fields get them as well?
Looks good.
One thing I’m confused about, what does the 1/2 after ground mean?
Also, I would like the scroll bar back for the ground boxes. Only having the buttons feels clunky to me.
@Ravenslight Yes, it should be emphasized that the item comparison and portrait highlighting features that activate when you select equipable items in the inventory should be optional and the player should be able to turn them off completely.
I don't think we are trying to put more information into the screen than is already there - we are just trying to make the information more accessible and practical to use.
The current UI shows ~16 lines of information in 4 scrollbars... we have probably just a little less lines but in only 1 scrollbar - it may look like more - but it really isn't.
I'm not referring to the suggestions in this thread specifically. I think all the relevant information one needs in an inventory screen is summed up really well with just hp, ac, thaco, and damage. Everything else fits better in the character screen.
Updated with a scrollbar - I spread the title of the ground box out and hopefully it should be clearer now which 'page' you are on.
It doesn't make sense to have two buttons next to each other that have the same function (major and minor colour picker - they both go to the same screen). I'd propose that since the two colour buttons both go to the same screen for picking colours, it would be better code-wise to make it just one button but the button to be shaped like this:
It means less code - has the same function as before and looks the same as earlier editions... it's just it's more efficient code-wise.
Optional toggles are: - "Item comparison" Found in settings: if you toggle Item Comparison Off then you won't see the 2nd screen when you pick up an item. Item Comparison is ON by default for new users.
- "Portrait Highlighting" Found in settings, portrait highlighting off will prevent the game from showing you 'suggestions' when you pick up equipment. Portrait Highlighting is On by default for new users.
- Each brown heading bar in the first picture is a toggle to show/hide the information detail directly below it. These are optional to use, and on screen all the time but make navigating the large text box easier if you want to use them.
Hmm… Am I remembering correctly that Dee asked Pecca to write up proposed changes to the record screen in some official way? If so, does that need to be done for the inventory changes as well?
Now that Dee’s gone, I don’t know who is communicating what to who.
Yes, as soon as you're ready to offer somewhat more or less finished, you should report it through Redmine so that the technical staff had less problems in understanding what is proposed and how.
So, @Pecca , @Mr2150 and @Adul, what do you think? You can think about reportы, which then can be supplemented.
My last post pretty much summarises everything up until this point and the 'decisions/reasoning' are within the thread. I'm happy to make a report as a feature request with that detail (and brief explanations) and then refer to this thread as the detailed 'why'...
Just need to be confident that we are at the end of the discussion process...
I'm not too happy about the wide bar, since it comes at the cost of text space, which is already diminished by moving the icons to the top, rather than the left, but I do agree it looks quite all right.
I like the frame between the text field and the off hand/ring equipment slots. At first I wasn't sure if it was wide enough, but it aligns nicely with the line at the bottom.
For the colors, I don't care if there's 1 or 2 buttons, but if there's 1 button, make it the color that is used for the selection circle, and don't leave a gaping hole where the 2nd button used to be.
I really think the icons should NOT change value just from picking up an item. It can quickly become really confusing which values they actually represent. For example, this is what would happen if the icons DO get updated:
- Weapon A is equipped, weapon B is in your backpack: Stats for weapon A are shown. - You grab weapon B with the mouse: Stats for weapon B are shown, even though weapon A is still equipped. - You replace weapon A with weapon B, which means you're now holding weapon A: Stats for weapon A are shown.
So, if you go from weapon A to weapon B, the stats would go from weapon B to weapon A, which is totally confusing. Therefor, the icons should NOT reflect whatever you're holding in the cursor, but should only represent the values as they currently are!
I originally thought about listing both the item held by the mouse, and the item it's potentially replacing, but the example provided by Mr2150 is more simple and elegant, especially as it shows the value for both mainhand and offhand options.
Though I'd consider separating the values into a mainhand and offhand slot, since they may affect more stats than just attack and damage. For example, if you have Twinkle equipped in your main hand, then equipping another weapon in your mainhand reduces your AC, whereas equipping another weapon in your offhand does not. The same could be done for rings. I'd also consider adding other specific values. For example, when equipping a piece of armor, listing the modifiers to specific attack types would be nice to see as well.
As for the scroll bars, it's important to keep in mind they're tiny and flimsy on touch screens, so alternate options would be nice. For the text window at the top, it makes sense that one could just drag it by the text itself. For the ground window, that doesn't work, as it would pick and drag the item instead. So perhaps the ground window does need the bigger buttons.
@JuliusBorisov There really is a diverse set of opinions in this thread, and to be honest I don't think a single report can really summarize them in any sort of complete way.
I was hoping that the designers who are ultimately going to make the decisions that go into the game would get involved here, at least on some level. They could draw inspiration from some of the discussions we had here, offer up their own opinions, and ask us if something needs more clarification. I understand their time is valuable, but the fact that Beamdog initiated this dialog makes me think that they thought it was important.
One more thing. My experience with Redmine is that most feature requests never get any sort of developer interaction. Whether they are reviewed by the devs or not, from my perspective they look like they're just ignored. Could that also happen to this report, after all the care and attention that went into it?
One more thing. My experience with Redmine is that most feature requests never get any sort of developer interaction. Whether they are reviewed by the devs or not, from my perspective they look like they're just ignored. Could that also happen to this report, after all the care and attention that went into it?
I guess that could very well happen. After all, as Dee stated in the first post:
Be aware that any mock-ups or designs posted in this thread are advisory only; nothing is promised or guaranteed for future implementation. All we're doing is discussing and honing ideas.
No developer interaction doesn't mean no attention. The UI discussion is very important to everyone, so each request in this sphere will get additional attention. I'll pass the information to the the technical staff.
On the standard screen, with the optional second screen turned off, the icon numbers and corresponding text should reflect what your character currently has equipped. If you use your mouse to take a piece of equipment off, the numbers and text should change to reflect what changes unequipping that piece makes. Basically, what is familiar and iconic for a Baldur’s Gate and Baldur’s Gate EE game.
I don’t know what changes might be helpful to those who prefer the setup with a second screen.
For the colors, I think they should reflect what that character is currently wearing, as it was done before.
@Ravenslight: I think the icon numbers should ALWAYS represent the current values, regardless of item comparison being enabled or disabled. Having the icon numbers reflect what is currently equipped can get messy quickly, like if you swap item A for item B, the stats would jump from B to A, which is overly confusing.
I think that the item comparison section should be entirely inside the text field. Normally it'll list the details for Armor, Health, Attack, Damage and APR. When you pick up an item, the text field should instead show the item's name and display which values change when the item is equipped (counting for both the bonuses provided by that item, and the bonuses lost by taking off the currently equipped item).
For weapons and rings, it could show two sections in the text field. One for equipping it in the main hand section, one for equipping it in the offhand section.
Of course, if a new option is added, it should only do this when the option is enabled, and otherwise always show the base information.
For colors, obviously, the color of the boxes should represent the color of the clothes. However, the clothes are a combination of two colors. One of these two colors is also used for the selection circle. I'm recommending that IF only a single box is used, then it should be the box that shows the color that is also used for the selection circle. I'm perfectly fine with both colors being shown as well.
For example: If you set someone's colors to red and blue, his outfit should appear in a combination of red and blue. One of these colors also determines his selection circle. If his selection circle is red, then either the red box should be displayed, or both of them (just not only the blue one).
@Ravenslight / @Thels - the numbers in the icon are your stats based on your currently equipped items.
If you change what is equipped then naturally those numbers might be updated because your 'currently equipped' items has changed. That's exactly how it works in all versions.
The only difference is the comparison screen looks different to the 2.3 comparison - and you can turn it off completely if you don't like it.
The colours would reflect the colours you are wearing - if that is major: red, minor: blue then you would see a red box and a blue box. Those two boxes together make a single button. And if you click that single button then you can change the red or blue, or both, to whatever pleases you most.
The only difference is that we are now 'filling the empty space' because the minor colour was missing previously, and that instead of two individual buttons they work as a single button because they both go to the same place.
As for the UI discussion threads--keep talking ideas and drawing up designs! I don't know that the Beamdog team is ready to look at them yet, but when they get to that point it will be immensely valuable to have those threads to turn to as research. That was always the goal for those discussions; I see no reason for that to change.
@Mr2150: It is important to keep in mind here, that while we may provide this as an end package, the devs may still decide to use some elements while discard other elements. As such, it could very well be that they stick to their decision of using only a single color box. I think that in that case, it makes more sense to use the color that determines the selection circle, not the other color.
@Mr2150: In 2.3 at least (and I think this was the case for all 2.x versions), the major color is used for the selection circles, whereas the minor color is used for the icon in the inventory screen. I'm asking that, if only a single color is used in the inventory screen, for it to be the major color.
Gotcha ... I think I was getting confused by 'selection circles' but I understand now you mean the circles under the characters when in the main game. I wasn't getting it at first as I make them all default to green.
So maybe we specify it like this:
- Preference: both major and minor colours are shown in the inventory screen. They act as a single button to open the colour picker to change clothing colours. If only a single colour can be shown the preference is that the major colour (eg the colour that matches the selection circle of the character when in game) is shown.
Actually, I think it would be OK for the two buttons to be separate buttons. It would look kinda weird if you clicked one and they both got pressed. After all, the new UI system does have user-defined functions, so it's not like they'd need to duplicate code to have two buttons perform the same function.
No, I do mean they physically are one button, instead of two buttons that are 1x1 square, ech showing only one colour, it is a 1x2 rectangle button with two colours shown inside.
They both go to the same screen so it really doesn't matter which you click to get there. Therefore join them together and make them one big button.
I’m not sure if I understand everything that @Thels said, maybe he was talking about the optional new screen, but it doesn’t matter as I think @Mr2150 summed up what I was trying to say. (I’m assuming he is saying that the corresponding text would change as well.)
I agree with his points on the color button as well. For one thing, I never ever use the new option to have the color circles match the colors of the individual characters. I always choose the option to have all the circles green, as they were in the previous games. Also it looks better to have that hole covered up with his double button.
@Ravenslight: I'm all in for having both the buttons there, but as I said earlier, in the case that the developers decide to stick with only one of the buttons, I think it would make a lot of sense if it was the button for the major color, rather than the minor color.
For the numbers, you said that the values in the icons reflect the actually equipped items when item comparison is disabled. I agree with you there, except I think that should always be the case, not only when item comparison is disabled.
@Mr2150: Adul has a point. When you click the color button, you can actually see the button getting pressed. I agree with Adul that because of that, it looks better to make two separate buttons (that call the same function), than a single button that encompasses both.
Comments
The current UI shows ~16 lines of information in 4 scrollbars... we have probably just a little less lines but in only 1 scrollbar - it may look like more - but it really isn't.
Just to make sure I’ve got it right:
If you have chosen to use the toggle, the second screen never appears when you pick up an item?
If the toggle is off and you equip an item like bracers that increase your Thaco, the white numbers in the icons and corresponding text changes to reflect the changes made to your character?
The little down arrow on the Hit Points field bar in the standard screen is a toggle to open and close that field and all the other fields get them as well?
Looks good.
One thing I’m confused about, what does the 1/2 after ground mean?
Also, I would like the scroll bar back for the ground boxes. Only having the buttons feels clunky to me.
It doesn't make sense to have two buttons next to each other that have the same function (major and minor colour picker - they both go to the same screen).
I'd propose that since the two colour buttons both go to the same screen for picking colours, it would be better code-wise to make it just one button but the button to be shaped like this:
It means less code - has the same function as before and looks the same as earlier editions... it's just it's more efficient code-wise.
Optional toggles are:
- "Item comparison"
Found in settings: if you toggle Item Comparison Off then you won't see the 2nd screen when you pick up an item. Item Comparison is ON by default for new users.
- "Portrait Highlighting"
Found in settings, portrait highlighting off will prevent the game from showing you 'suggestions' when you pick up equipment. Portrait Highlighting is On by default for new users.
- Each brown heading bar in the first picture is a toggle to show/hide the information detail directly below it. These are optional to use, and on screen all the time but make navigating the large text box easier if you want to use them.
Now that Dee’s gone, I don’t know who is communicating what to who.
So, @Pecca , @Mr2150 and @Adul, what do you think? You can think about reportы, which then can be supplemented.
Just need to be confident that we are at the end of the discussion process...
I like the frame between the text field and the off hand/ring equipment slots. At first I wasn't sure if it was wide enough, but it aligns nicely with the line at the bottom.
For the colors, I don't care if there's 1 or 2 buttons, but if there's 1 button, make it the color that is used for the selection circle, and don't leave a gaping hole where the 2nd button used to be.
I really think the icons should NOT change value just from picking up an item. It can quickly become really confusing which values they actually represent. For example, this is what would happen if the icons DO get updated:
- Weapon A is equipped, weapon B is in your backpack: Stats for weapon A are shown.
- You grab weapon B with the mouse: Stats for weapon B are shown, even though weapon A is still equipped.
- You replace weapon A with weapon B, which means you're now holding weapon A: Stats for weapon A are shown.
So, if you go from weapon A to weapon B, the stats would go from weapon B to weapon A, which is totally confusing. Therefor, the icons should NOT reflect whatever you're holding in the cursor, but should only represent the values as they currently are!
I originally thought about listing both the item held by the mouse, and the item it's potentially replacing, but the example provided by Mr2150 is more simple and elegant, especially as it shows the value for both mainhand and offhand options.
Though I'd consider separating the values into a mainhand and offhand slot, since they may affect more stats than just attack and damage. For example, if you have Twinkle equipped in your main hand, then equipping another weapon in your mainhand reduces your AC, whereas equipping another weapon in your offhand does not. The same could be done for rings. I'd also consider adding other specific values. For example, when equipping a piece of armor, listing the modifiers to specific attack types would be nice to see as well.
As for the scroll bars, it's important to keep in mind they're tiny and flimsy on touch screens, so alternate options would be nice. For the text window at the top, it makes sense that one could just drag it by the text itself. For the ground window, that doesn't work, as it would pick and drag the item instead. So perhaps the ground window does need the bigger buttons.
I was hoping that the designers who are ultimately going to make the decisions that go into the game would get involved here, at least on some level. They could draw inspiration from some of the discussions we had here, offer up their own opinions, and ask us if something needs more clarification. I understand their time is valuable, but the fact that Beamdog initiated this dialog makes me think that they thought it was important.
I don’t know what changes might be helpful to those who prefer the setup with a second screen.
For the colors, I think they should reflect what that character is currently wearing, as it was done before.
I think that the item comparison section should be entirely inside the text field. Normally it'll list the details for Armor, Health, Attack, Damage and APR. When you pick up an item, the text field should instead show the item's name and display which values change when the item is equipped (counting for both the bonuses provided by that item, and the bonuses lost by taking off the currently equipped item).
For weapons and rings, it could show two sections in the text field. One for equipping it in the main hand section, one for equipping it in the offhand section.
Of course, if a new option is added, it should only do this when the option is enabled, and otherwise always show the base information.
For colors, obviously, the color of the boxes should represent the color of the clothes. However, the clothes are a combination of two colors. One of these two colors is also used for the selection circle. I'm recommending that IF only a single box is used, then it should be the box that shows the color that is also used for the selection circle. I'm perfectly fine with both colors being shown as well.
For example: If you set someone's colors to red and blue, his outfit should appear in a combination of red and blue. One of these colors also determines his selection circle. If his selection circle is red, then either the red box should be displayed, or both of them (just not only the blue one).
If you change what is equipped then naturally those numbers might be updated because your 'currently equipped' items has changed. That's exactly how it works in all versions.
The only difference is the comparison screen looks different to the 2.3 comparison - and you can turn it off completely if you don't like it.
The colours would reflect the colours you are wearing - if that is major: red, minor: blue then you would see a red box and a blue box. Those two boxes together make a single button. And if you click that single button then you can change the red or blue, or both, to whatever pleases you most.
The only difference is that we are now 'filling the empty space' because the minor colour was missing previously, and that instead of two individual buttons they work as a single button because they both go to the same place.
So I think we are all good
I think I'm just assuming that if they decide to go for only one box they wouldn't change the current version to the minor colour instead.
So maybe we specify it like this:
- Preference: both major and minor colours are shown in the inventory screen. They act as a single button to open the colour picker to change clothing colours. If only a single colour can be shown the preference is that the major colour (eg the colour that matches the selection circle of the character when in game) is shown.
They both go to the same screen so it really doesn't matter which you click to get there. Therefore join them together and make them one big button.
I agree with his points on the color button as well. For one thing, I never ever use the new option to have the color circles match the colors of the individual characters. I always choose the option to have all the circles green, as they were in the previous games. Also it looks better to have that hole covered up with his double button.
For the numbers, you said that the values in the icons reflect the actually equipped items when item comparison is disabled. I agree with you there, except I think that should always be the case, not only when item comparison is disabled.
@Mr2150: Adul has a point. When you click the color button, you can actually see the button getting pressed. I agree with Adul that because of that, it looks better to make two separate buttons (that call the same function), than a single button that encompasses both.