A Wand of Cantrips would have some design advantages: As items, wands already have functionality to switch between abilities(and as at-will abilities, they would not be limited to 3), they can be restricted by class and kit, no risk of interfering with AI scripts, spell levels, or incompatible spells(identify), and not subject to Improved Alacrity or reduced casting time. On the other hand, like scrolls, they can't normally be interrupted while casting.
@subtledoctor - These are interesting ideas, but is there a way to stick with innates for cantrips? You mentioned not wanting to overload the innates bar, but how about doing a cantrip innate that brings up a menu of cantrips? (Like a Totemic Druid's summon ability) You could give access to all cantrips except those from opposed schools. Perhaps have the cantrip spell fire effs based on KIT.IDS that use opcode 214 and a custom .2da for each mage specialist type.
That way, you're not completely overhauling the first and second level spells.
Who says to scale to high double digit damage. I would start with 3 or 4 damage at level 1 and adding 2 per 2 levels to a maximum of 10 to 12. Makes it less overpowered early game but still good
Same with saves. Give all +4 bonus and decrease every 2 levels by 1 to get to a 0 bonus at most.
Then buff level 2 spells a little bit to scale slightly better at higher levels etc...
Scaling at low levels really isn't rocket science, just balancing to higher level spells.
Don't worry, I wrote that in jest, I take no offense from any of these votes or comments.
My point was not avoiding to give offense, but that even if I see the mod as a good idea is not an idea that appeals me so much given my playing style. Good ideas, surely not garbage, but also not so intriguing for me. The 2 choices of the poll are too extreme, my position is in the middle.
Well, I disagree about wands. I don't think they are nearly as varied or interesting as they could be. But that's another discussion.
That's another discussion and I agree that they could be more varied or interesting, but somehow they allow wizards to be magical and slightly useful even outside of their 20 or so memorized spells. Their existence in the game is not a perfect substitute of the proposed centrips, but to a certain degree they cover the function. Making, to my eyes and not in absolute, the centrips superfluous.
Unfortunately the engine does not have the capability to manipulate casting time in interesting or satisfying ways. The devs made IA+RoV cheese a game-killer and .........................Why would you use a spell that does only 4-10 damage per cast when you could be doing 25+?
Because as the game is implemented is much more efficient.Autopause, IA and RoV and your Sorcerer can spam all his MM, MMA and Skull traps or Fire Arrows spell in the time that he need to cast a couple of ADHW. Giving the same possibility to a Mage, maybe a lev 7 dualed F->M, is too much. Too much even if he can only use nerfed but not limited Chromating Orbs and MM.
Anyway a super-easy fix is to simply do something like, add an effect that disables spellcasting buttons for one second every time you cast.
super-easy and super-effective fix. Imo the disabling effect should only be applied if a centrip is casted, or it would change the global balance of IA, thing that can be good (for some players), but goes beyond the scope of this topic.
I think this is a solid idea that has some flaws, but you can make it happen with some tweaks.
1) The character has to choose a handful of cantrips (like a sorcerer) and they are the only ones they can use, no others can be learned. Maybe 1 cantrip at level 1, and another at level 6, level 11 and level 16. Maximum of 4.
2) Move some of the better spells to level 2 or weaken some level 1 spells severely to make their power very limited, eg Magic Missile is just 1 missile (no scaling), Armour lasts for 5 rounds, Charm Person lasts for 2 rounds etc. You already have this idea, just find the right balance.
Who says to scale to high double digit damage. I would start with 3 or 4 damage at level 1 and adding 2 per 2 levels to a maximum of 10 to 12. Makes it less overpowered early game but still good
Same with saves. Give all +4 bonus and decrease every 2 levels by 1 to get to a 0 bonus at most.
Then buff level 2 spells a little bit to scale slightly better at higher levels etc...
Scaling at low levels really isn't rocket science, just balancing to higher level spells.
We are already discussing how to balance at high levels, that is what make the free centrips potentially game breaking, imo the idea of @subtledoctor is perfect for that. At very low levels the problem of balance remains, as a player can kite the enemies and kill them with centrips, almost any not ranged and not regenerating enemy is vulnerable to such tactic. As he is vulnerable to be bombed from the fog of war, I agree, but something you mod the game into is supposed to remove possible exploits, not to open at new ones. And kiting the enemy and killing him with the free centrips is not even an exploit as it don't rely on the AI weakness dealing with attacks from the FoW, but uses an intended feature of the centrips, the unlimited use per day.
What is the difference of kiting with spells or kiting with darts out slings? You can give all foes ranged weapons if you are really abhorred by kiting.
Casting out of view, that is a player choice i think.
What would you do with mod-added spells? I assume this would be another in the ever-growing list of "install this mod last" mods. So, would your mod just apply the Wondrous Recall opcode to all 1st level spells (like igi's Spell System Adjustment mod does for all spells), or are you only going to cantrip-fy vanilla spells (so you can better control the power level)?
PS - The way Identify works, it doesn't trigger the Wondrous Recall opcode, so it actually burns a 1st level slot (until rest). This is also an issue with igi's mod.
What is the difference of kiting with spells or kiting with darts out slings? You can give all foes ranged weapons if you are really abhorred by kiting.
Casting out of view, that is a player choice i think.
When kiting with spells you can have a damage without a roll to hit, you can blind, stun, charm or have the enemy run terrified I think that the difference is obvious.
But I agree on the player's choice, I have always told that for me the key to address certain things is self moderation and not nerfing, cheap tactics are a player related problem, not a developer/modder related problem, as is impossible to nerf all the cheap things we can do without rewriting completely the game and transforming it in something a lot more rigid and boring. And everyone is free to find his enjoyment in the way he like. My intention is just to address the fact that creating those centrips a new way to find exploits and cheap tactics (that are not the same thing...) is opened, even with some nerfing of the spells involved. As I told the idea is good, maybe not my kind of thing but good.
Oy, don't even get me started about Identify. I hate that spell. - Want to make a divine version for priests of Oghma? Sorry, no can do. - An innate ability for Loremasters? Nope. - Object Reading as a psionic power? Uh-uh.
I even gave the actual wizard spell Identify to a thief in order to trigger it. That actually works for most wizard spells - you can give them to warriors/thieves/priests and they will be in the spellbook and usable even if you can't see them. But does it work for Identify? Of course not.
Feh!
Do a temporary Lore bonus I guess? That could be abused, of course... cast spell, pause game, identify a backpack full of stuff...
I think making first level spells into cantrips is a bad idea. Cantrips are meant to be almost useless spells for battle but perhaps useful for everyday small things; also they are meant for apprentices to learn the very basics of spell casting. A cantrip would something like a "fire" spell that only has the power to light a candle/ equivalent power of a candle - basically something that you would not use for battle but could be used for every day things. Perhaps a levitation spell that can only lift a cup (but useful to grab a set of keys from across a room if you are in a hurry) - small things that are not meant to be really useful to do and probably faster to do the mundane way but you could cast if you were in a rush. Cantrips could also be like jokes - a spell that makes you itch or sneeze; a spell that summons a single fly that buzzes around someone; a spell that causes a fart/mini-stink bomb; a smoke bomb (very small radius); a flash spell (that had a chance of temporarily blinding someone for a round - but only works in total darkness).
Cantrips are meant to be small spells that are not meant to be totally useful but given the right circumstance could prove somewhat useful. If you can cast cantrips at will then they have to have a real limited usefulness otherwise why would a mage really bother with higher level spells - if for example you could cast unlimited magic missiles - even if the damage individually was small - the mage would eventually win any battle.
I can just imagine a mage on horseback literally running circles around his opponent and killing them with one teeny tiny Ray of Frost after another, safely out of reach. And if the other guy has a bow, the mage uses Mage Hand to snatch all the arrows from his quiver.
Imagine how humiliating it would be to get killed by a cantrip.
What is the difference of kiting with spells or kiting with darts out slings? You can give all foes ranged weapons if you are really abhorred by kiting.
Casting out of view, that is a player choice i think.
When kiting with spells you can have a damage without a roll to hit, you can blind, stun, charm or have the enemy run terrified I think that the difference is obvious.
well yes and no. In the end if you kite well indefinitely, attack roll does not matter anymore. I do agree that you have maybe more effects with the cantrips but whether that is necessarily better when kiting may also be debatable (darts of stunning, darts of wounding last longer).
If someone goes basilisk hunting at level one they will find a way to do it anyway, kiting or no. I think the idea of cantrips is great and gouda cheese is not something that needs to be balanced for it to be in the game. Just tone down the damage and save bonuses for the cantrips and find a way to make them useful at mid and higher levels by minor scaling. That's it i think.
I use at least half of the level one spells still aplenty even in ToB btw, i actually don't use the high level spells much..., so i disagree that they are just for the first few levels of the game.
there is no "indefinitely" with an attack that always hits.
Well, always-hit doing 2-5 damage per hit at 1 APR will be way less effective while kiting versus a 50% chance to hit doing 4-9 damage per hit at 2.5 APR. It's an average of 3.5 DPR vs. ~9+ DPR.
Not true as the magical attack does not prevent the physical one. The correct calculation is 3.5 + ~9=~12.5DPR vs. ~9+ DPR. Or ~9+ DPR and Charm, fear or similar disabling effects vs. ~9+ DPR and nothing else. The fact that they are modded to disable an enemy only 1 time x day only partially helps as many times 1 single time is enough to kill them and they are anyway not protected from the other disabling centrips. That 3.5 Dmg is also a way to disrupt an enemy mage for forever just for free. The disabling effects may not work so often, but in the long run they will make a real difference, and a mage has ways to lower enemy's ST. At low and mid levels a mage is quite stronger even if he don't uses outrageously coward ultrakiting tactics. The centrips are not destroying spells, but are spells with a good tactical potential and the fact that they are always ready and free open some interesting and effective tactics, both using them only or in combination with regular spells.
All this is fine if you want the mages to be stronger than they actually are, if this is not your intention I suggest you to evaluate better the possible tactics opened by those centrips, I see more than kiting potential in them.
Imho making Protection from Petrification affect only the caster is an error. In this game being turned to stone can be a game over and there are not so many ways to protect Charname or the party. I suggest to move it at lev2 without changing it.
My goal is not to convince you, just to be helpful. Also the possible abuse from high level mages was first seen by me, then you had found the appropriate fix. I am still convinced that the mod give to the mages real benefits, think at how many spell slots a mage will have at mid game, subtract the number of the spells that are used before or after the battle. Now compare it with the number of combat rounds that on average a mage has each day, without abusing rest. You give for free a lot of magic actions that don't prevent from doing the normal physical attack in the same round. If you don't abuse infinite spells strategies the time that a mage is "inactive" as class is much more then the time he spend casting, even depotentiated the infinite free spells are a real punch. But I don't want to convince you or any other else, I just bring some arguments and let the evaluation to you, so you can decide according to your taste, but knowing that with a clever use of the proposed feature a mage can have a relevant advantage, and the few dmg added is not the real problem.
This is the main technical problem of the whole mod, the AI would try to use the old suppressed lev1 spells and not use the new ones, or using them as the old spells. Did you figured out a solution for that? The problem is not evident in your previous mod as the normal lev1 spells are not touched, this time the impact on the AI is much bigger.
EDIT: I messed up something with the quotes, are all inverted I don't know how it happened, any way it was not intentional
I may make the Cantrip spell myself eventually. If I do, it's going to be a 1st-level spell, as in the PHB, and have several effects to choose from on a panel. All of these will be very weak, according to guidelines on cantrips in... I don't remember where. So I might have options like a ray that does 1d3 damage, a save vs. spells or be stuned for 1 round, a haste for 1 round, a very weak wind, a 1-round Wizard Eye and so on. The strength of this spell lies in its versatility, not power.
Priests have their own Cantrip, by the way - Orison.
I guess my question is what is the purpose of this mod? Level 1 spells, with the exception of a very specific few, are essentially irrelevant in BG2 - and this will nerf those useful ones, making level 1 entirely useless, regardless of castings.
Conversely, you are raising the interest level in a magic using character in the first BG, as they have more than a single cast or two at first level, then done! This may go some way to address the problems that the magic user is not the absolute god of characters at /all/ levels, which is only part of my concern. However, I really do enjoy the growth of a caster from the useless person that the team must protect at low level, as their investment into the all-conquering beast that will follow.
I actually like (most) of the level 1 spells as statted. They are individually useful, and generally of a right power level to not promote to level 2 as being overpowered, especially with their low level scaling. Depowering them, in order to cast an infinite number of times per day, feels both a nerf and overpowering at the same time. Meanwhile, for those that want to cast more frequently to feel useful at first, there is always the abusable rest mechanic.
If you were to propose adding an entirely new class of cantrips with much weaker effects, I would be interested (and indeed, this is apparently what you do in Tome and Blood) but not if the weaker effects include a casting-time 1 magic missile - even a single missile disrupts casting, which is the most effective use of MM until mages are routinely protected.
Comments
As items, wands already have functionality to switch between abilities(and as at-will abilities, they would not be limited to 3), they can be restricted by class and kit, no risk of interfering with AI scripts, spell levels, or incompatible spells(identify), and not subject to Improved Alacrity or reduced casting time.
On the other hand, like scrolls, they can't normally be interrupted while casting.
That way, you're not completely overhauling the first and second level spells.
Same with saves. Give all +4 bonus and decrease every 2 levels by 1 to get to a 0 bonus at most.
Then buff level 2 spells a little bit to scale slightly better at higher levels etc...
Scaling at low levels really isn't rocket science, just balancing to higher level spells.
1) The character has to choose a handful of cantrips (like a sorcerer) and they are the only ones they can use, no others can be learned. Maybe 1 cantrip at level 1, and another at level 6, level 11 and level 16. Maximum of 4.
2) Move some of the better spells to level 2 or weaken some level 1 spells severely to make their power very limited, eg Magic Missile is just 1 missile (no scaling), Armour lasts for 5 rounds, Charm Person lasts for 2 rounds etc. You already have this idea, just find the right balance.
At very low levels the problem of balance remains, as a player can kite the enemies and kill them with centrips, almost any not ranged and not regenerating enemy is vulnerable to such tactic. As he is vulnerable to be bombed from the fog of war, I agree, but something you mod the game into is supposed to remove possible exploits, not to open at new ones. And kiting the enemy and killing him with the free centrips is not even an exploit as it don't rely on the AI weakness dealing with attacks from the FoW, but uses an intended feature of the centrips, the unlimited use per day.
Casting out of view, that is a player choice i think.
PS - The way Identify works, it doesn't trigger the Wondrous Recall opcode, so it actually burns a 1st level slot (until rest). This is also an issue with igi's mod.
http://www.shsforums.net/files/file/961-iispellsystemadjustments/
But I agree on the player's choice, I have always told that for me the key to address certain things is self moderation and not nerfing, cheap tactics are a player related problem, not a developer/modder related problem, as is impossible to nerf all the cheap things we can do without rewriting completely the game and transforming it in something a lot more rigid and boring. And everyone is free to find his enjoyment in the way he like.
My intention is just to address the fact that creating those centrips a new way to find exploits and cheap tactics (that are not the same thing...) is opened, even with some nerfing of the spells involved. As I told the idea is good, maybe not my kind of thing but good.
Cantrips are meant to be small spells that are not meant to be totally useful but given the right circumstance could prove somewhat useful. If you can cast cantrips at will then they have to have a real limited usefulness otherwise why would a mage really bother with higher level spells - if for example you could cast unlimited magic missiles - even if the damage individually was small - the mage would eventually win any battle.
Imagine how humiliating it would be to get killed by a cantrip.
Just tone down the damage and save bonuses for the cantrips and find a way to make them useful at mid and higher levels by minor scaling. That's it i think.
I use at least half of the level one spells still aplenty even in ToB btw, i actually don't use the high level spells much..., so i disagree that they are just for the first few levels of the game.
3.5 + ~9=~12.5DPR vs. ~9+ DPR.
Or ~9+ DPR and Charm, fear or similar disabling effects vs. ~9+ DPR and nothing else. The fact that they are modded to disable an enemy only 1 time x day only partially helps as many times 1 single time is enough to kill them and they are anyway not protected from the other disabling centrips. That 3.5 Dmg is also a way to disrupt an enemy mage for forever just for free. The disabling effects may not work so often, but in the long run they will make a real difference, and a mage has ways to lower enemy's ST.
At low and mid levels a mage is quite stronger even if he don't uses outrageously coward ultrakiting tactics. The centrips are not destroying spells, but are spells with a good tactical potential and the fact that they are always ready and free open some interesting and effective tactics, both using them only or in combination with regular spells.
All this is fine if you want the mages to be stronger than they actually are, if this is not your intention I suggest you to evaluate better the possible tactics opened by those centrips, I see more than kiting potential in them.
Imho making Protection from Petrification affect only the caster is an error. In this game being turned to stone can be a game over and there are not so many ways to protect Charname or the party. I suggest to move it at lev2 without changing it.
Priests have their own Cantrip, by the way - Orison.
Conversely, you are raising the interest level in a magic using character in the first BG, as they have more than a single cast or two at first level, then done! This may go some way to address the problems that the magic user is not the absolute god of characters at /all/ levels, which is only part of my concern. However, I really do enjoy the growth of a caster from the useless person that the team must protect at low level, as their investment into the all-conquering beast that will follow.
I actually like (most) of the level 1 spells as statted. They are individually useful, and generally of a right power level to not promote to level 2 as being overpowered, especially with their low level scaling. Depowering them, in order to cast an infinite number of times per day, feels both a nerf and overpowering at the same time. Meanwhile, for those that want to cast more frequently to feel useful at first, there is always the abusable rest mechanic.
If you were to propose adding an entirely new class of cantrips with much weaker effects, I would be interested (and indeed, this is apparently what you do in Tome and Blood) but not if the weaker effects include a casting-time 1 magic missile - even a single missile disrupts casting, which is the most effective use of MM until mages are routinely protected.