I also tried Charm Person but the chances were really low @Grond0. Same for Hold Monsters. Angelo is no big deal as he cannot hit the spirit summons but hasted Sarevok kills everything in no time and without haste on MC he catches me in no time. This one is a really tough nut especially when using no-reload. Any ideas on this one @semiticgod?
I tested Korlasz dungeon just for fun and a Greater Fire Elemental plus three Spirit Lions together with the Flaming Fist were able to beat the first group of undead. After that Krell could just sneak through to Korlasz calling in Spirit Wolves and a Fire Elemental while timing Insect Swarm so that it hit right after she went hostile. Worked like a charm. I think with his summons i could beat everything in SoD up to Big B which would be - pretty much like Sarevok - another neverending nightmare. Damn, damn, damn it!!!
Okay, i did some testing. Dispel Magic at level 10 most of the time puts Sarevoks Haste away - at least one of the four will do the job. With Spirit Lions and healing backup from the Nymphs you can now play hit and run. The Spirit Lion who is targeted by Sarevok will run around while the other one keeps on hitting. All it needs is just some micromanagement. Other option is to use the MC as target with two Lions hunting Sarevok. In my test i managed to kill Sarevok before the Lions vanished again even though both were hurt quite badly. So this part works...
The main problem is to take out all of his friends before saving the Spirit Lions as long as possible. And avoid dying!
I also tried Charm Person but the chances were really low @Grond0. Same for Hold Monsters. Angelo is no big deal as he cannot hit the spirit summons but hasted Sarevok kills everything in no time and without haste on MC he catches me in no time. This one is a really tough nut especially when using no-reload. Any ideas on this one @semiticgod?
The problem is that you're just so short on damaging resources. That's why I think you need to get the enemies fighting among themselves. Charm person won't work on anyone I suspect due to its +3 modifier, but hold monster has a -2 modifier so there is some sort of chance there. Nymph domination I think has no modifier, so if it was possible to get Diarmid on your side with that things would look slightly more rosy.
I'm surprised you were being successful with dispel magic. In LoB that would be expected to have virtually no chance of success as Sarevok is so much higher level than you.
Thinking about it, one possibility might be to use dispel magic on the dais to get rid of the invisibility on Sarevok's friends. If you then sent summons in to attack using farsight there's at least the possibility they won't fight back - might be something to test out. If successful that would indicate the fight has not officially started (so you should be able to nip outside and rest).
Tested Dispel Magic several rounds shooting it out of vision on Sarevok. For whatever reason he always lost his Haste which made the following battle a lot easier!
@Grond0: Dispel Magic + Farsight indeed works!!! The problem is: If you kill Semaj or Tazok Sarevok will trigger the talking but Diarmid and Angelo will NOT appear. Which also means: Sarevok is immortal.
The trick is: Hack Tazok and Semaj down to nearly dead (maybe using CTRL+M) and only then trigger the talking. Angelo and Diarmid will port in but the others are still close to death.
When now charming Diarmid he will take down Tazok in no time. Another option: Cast Insect Swarm on one of the bats in front of them to take them out and only then charm Diarmid. Which would mean: Only Angelo is left.
But as we all know: Angelo will easily die to the Spirit Summons. Which means only Sarevok would be left...
Update: Sarevok is no more! After many, many reloads Krell the Totemic Druid managed to beat him.
Okay, i nearly got Sarevok down even though i think there is room for improvement:
1. Dispel Magic to get rid of Haste as well as making Semaj and Tazok visible 2a. Move along the east and use one Spirit Lion to bring both close to zero 2b. Alternativly use Animal Summon II to bring both close to zero 3. Retreat the summon and trigger the talking so Diarmid and Angelo port in 4. Insect Swarm on Bat in front of the group which will kill Tazok and Semaj 5. In most cases this activates Angelo who will run directly into the Spirit Lion 6. Let one Spirit Lion take down Angelo even though this may take a while 7. Hide and wait until Diarmids PfM expires 8a. Call in four Nymphs and cast Pixie Dust to get them into position unseen 8b. Without Pixie Dust split them up and let one Nymph soak up all the hits 9. Cast Mental Domination on Diarmod (~50% chance) and let him shoot Sarevok 10. Wait until Diarmid is dead and call in Spirit Lion - play hit & run with Sarevok The last part so far is the hardest as the Skeleton Warriors prove to be a major pain.
Any ideas are welcome!
EDIT: Another real close fight where Sarevok was left with 23 HP only before the last Spirit Lion went down. Damn it. Diarmid made this one a lot easier cause the Nymphs bought him a lot of time and he put down good damage on Sarevok ("only" 668 HP left). Still not enough cause of some bad moves at the end. The rest of the fight works really smooth in most cases (only the Diarmid charming is pure dice luck) so with some lucky rolls and fresh minded micromanagement a naked Totemic Druid should win even this final battle!
EDIT2: Most critical part will be to lure away Sarevok without pulling the Skeleton Warriors (at least there is no improved call for help). But still: Tricky one. A single Skeleton can be handled while two or more around Sarevok makes the fight more or less impossible. Its all about positioning now. But first: Some rest!
EDIT3: Last close call before rest. Sarevok again down to nearly dead but at the end i unfortunately pulled two Skeletons (.....) who made short work of the last Spirit Lion. Krell tried to save the day but: No!
EDIT4: As i cannot sleep i tried the final fight a little bit more using Animal Summoning instead of Spirit Lion at the very start. It failed hard cause the Wolves are just not hitting hard enough (as well as missing too often). With one Spirit Lion Semaj and Tazok dropped low really fast while always taking a close look at their HP with CTRL+M.
The next critical phase started after Diarmid got charmed. I splitted the three Nymphs as far as possible to gain more time before they got killed. Time Diarmid used to constantly shoot Acid Arrows at Sarevok (too bad Mental Domination lasts only eight rounds). But: As he nearly always hits this still takes away lots of HP (around 600+ if everything works perfect).
It was absolutely crucial that Diarmid is standing far away from the door once he turns hostile again as the other Skeleton Warriors will also gather around him. Parking them near Sarevoks starting points gives enough room for the next and final kiting phase.
In a perfect scenario we have parked Sarevok so that we can pull him solo to our second Spirit Lion (Lion cause he has the best APR and a really good punch). From now on Krell tried to get Sarevoks attention so his Lions will get a lot attacks of opportunity. Running in circles had proven to be the most efficient way (sometimes even the Bats will block Sarevok shortly) while always watching if his evil brother switches the target (he will randomly do this from time to time). If this happened the Lion was running while Krell tried to get into Sarevoks path regaining his attention. Without Haste it was all about quick pause and a little bit micromanagement. For me it felt easier with every new round so in this last and final try both of them got hit only once. I did not count the rounds but as the Lion remains for 6 turns there was plenty of time getting in enough hits (4 APR & 10-17 damage hurted even Sarevok quite a lot!):
That was a hell of a fight and one that slowly turned from "impossible" to "still hard but somehow manageable". There are many things that can go wrong and without "some" luck it can be over really fast. Doing this in a no-reload-run would be a nerve-racking thriller.
Its also clear that without summons and the nice spell collection Krell would have failed forever here - which shows again how powerful the Totemic Druid is for this challenge. SoD will be another story even though i am quite sure that he can beat everything up to Avernus. Big B himself feels untouchable at the moment - even more than Sarevok before. Should i give it a try? Maybe...
That was a hell of a fight and one that slowly turned from "impossible" to "still hard but somehow manageable". There are many things that can go wrong and without "some" luck it can be over really fast. Doing this in a no-reload-run would be a nerve-racking thriller.
Its also clear that without summons and the nice spell collection Krell would have failed forever here - which shows again how powerful the Totemic Druid is for this challenge. SoD will be another story even though i am quite sure that he can beat everything up to Avernus. Big B himself feels untouchable at the moment - even more than Sarevok before. Should i give it a try? Maybe...
Those boundaries keep getting pushed back - does nothing stop this boy ? I'm not sure why you think Belhifet will be so bad - surely there must be some way to harm him?
It gets better and better: Farsight is NOT needed against Sarevok. Why?
Cause after dispelling Tazoks and Semajs invisibility you can just walk along the eastern part so you can see both of them but NOT Sarevok. This means: Another Nymph summon and even more time for Diarmid to shoot at Sarevok.
With some luck you can also extend Mental Domination a bit more when delaying the casting of at least one Nymph - just let it stay back a bit so it wont get targeted first. More time, more damage.
You can also cast two times Animal Summoning I and split them on Semaj and Tazok. This will save one Spirit Lion which could be used against Sarevok later. The downside is that you need good rolls especially on Tazok to lower his HP far enough before the summons vanish again (3 turns is not always enough). It will also mean that only two Nymphs will be present for charming Diarmid. With reloads this doesnt matter but in a no-reload-setting this path seems a little bit unreliable.
Yeah, you are right @Grond0 and @semiticgod. With reloads its theoretically possible to get in Magic Resistance, land Harm and not getting feared in between even though it will take dozens of reloads.
As Krell has already beaten Korlasz i think that i will let him roll a bit more - no?
EDIT: Okay, there seems to be an even better way. Instead of Pixie Dust you can memorize Animal Summoning II. These summons hit hard enough to bring Semaj and Tazok close to zero before vanishing again. This puts us back to four Nymphs but we lack invisibility. To get around this i moved in to Diarmid from all sides so that one of them will soak up their attention while the other three get out Mental Domination on Diarmid. Pixie Dust makes things easier but seems not to be essential. This also means that the first Spirit Lion will still be around when Diarmid dies so hunting down Sarevok should be much easier...
Have you tried resting after engaging Tazok and Semaj? I assume that's possible, but don't know whether the temple is counted as the same area as the Undercity for HP recovery purposes. If it is they would only recover 100 HPs, which would make it easy to finish them off with animals.
Fighting Big B with no-items-at-all looks totally impossible for Totemic Druid after trying it around twenty times.
Each time Krell gets feared even before Magic Resistance is out. The problem: His Save vs Wands is only at 9. Take in Big B´s malus (was it -3?) the chances of getting feared during the whole process is quite high. Not to forget: The Bone Fiend also uses Cloak of Fear which drops chances more. Plus the Demons are constantly using Hold Person on him (Domination is blocked by Chaotic Commands). Even if Harm can somehow be casted Krell would still need to roll a 20 landing it AND get in a little bit more damage afterwards (Spirit Summon?). How many reloads would be needed here? Thousand? More?
I started another poverty-run with Thorgrim the Dwarven Cleric of Thalos as Totemic Druid was getting a little bit boring. After playing him for quite a while now the only real threats in BG1 are the Ogre Ambush at Candlekeep and Sarevok himself. I absorted SoD as the Spirit Summons still proved to be OP there. Combined with his Casting Power even the Crusader Attacks were not a big deal - get in Fire Elementals + Spirit Summons + Nymphs + Insect Swarms and watch them suffer...
However: My question to @Grond0 regarding the rules of poverty runs: Is it allowed to use gold buying quest items (Firebeads book) or help others (Farmer Brun)?
Overconfidence is no life assurance and so the first thing i had to learn with my Cleric of Thalos: Storm Shield is not fast enough when meeting Bandit Archers. Damn it!
However: My question to @Grond0 regarding the rules of poverty runs: Is it allowed to use gold buying quest items (Firebeads book) or help others (Farmer Brun)?
Your rules are up to, you know, you ...
My version of poverty is rather stricter than the original poverty challenge @semiticgod referred to. In summary: - you can't pay for any items or services, but you can pay for quests. - you can't use or equip anything (except magically created weapons such as MMMs, ghoul touch etc). Thus I couldn't pay for a book for Firebead (but there is one of those in the house immediately south of him anyway). You could, however, pay for the quest for Farmer Brun (if you don't allow that sort of thing you would be forced to make a rules exception to allow you to pay the 15,000 gold required in BG2).
@Harpagornis: Dating back to the original Insane Solo Poverty challenge for BG2, gold can be spent on quests. But like @Grond0 said, you can set your own rules for the challenge; @Grond0 and I both use slightly different rules.
@Grond0: What about magically created weapons like non-SR Fire Seeds or SR's Enchanted Weapon, items that can be given to other party members? Are Goodberries acceptable?
@semiticgod I haven't used either of those to date, but in principle I wouldn't have a problem with them. I wouldn't though allow things which are created permanently, e.g. by Wish or using glitches.
Okay thanks for your thoughts @Grond0 and @semiticgod - i think that i will use a compromise:
- Gold for quests: Yes! - Gold for items or services: No! - Items only if they are temporary created by spells like Flame Blade, Shillelag and so on. Goodberries are acceptable too. - Equipping items - if not essential for the main quest: No! Exception: Shapeshifting Tokens for Druids as they are innate abilities.
P.S. I have tested the fight against Big B a little bit more after failing hard with Totemic Druid. So far i think that the one and only class that - maybe - can beat Big B in a poverty run using our rule setting is the Berserker -> Druid. Rage keeps him immune to Charm, Paralyzation and Fear while Protection from Fire and Lightning negates elemental attacks. With Iron Skin up, good timing and a universe filled with luck this char can at least bring Big B down to 1 HP. So far i was able to cast Magic Resistance + Harm but - you know it - i failed landing it. But that is just a matter of time. My only question would be: How to land the killing blow?
1. Caelar Argent dies mostly too fast before the whole Magic Resistance + Harm combo goes through 2. Even if it works there seems to be no way getting in the killing blow on Big B
Caelar can hit Big B but keeping her alive is (nearly) impossible. My idea using Dolorous Decay does not work as Big B doesnt die even if he fails his save. Calling in a Fire Elemental seems to be no option either as the casting time is far too long.
My only hope would be the Hamatula and a perfectly triggered Barbed Defense. Can anyone explain me how this skill works? Sure it triggers when the Hamatula gets hit but i have watched Big B getting damaged too (one time he also got killed by it). How was that possible? Maybe @semiticgod can give me an answer? What about you @Ardanis?
Thanks for any ideas how to finish Big B with my poverty Berserker/Druid!
@Harpagornis: Barbed Defense triggers every time a Hamatula gets hit. The target is whoever hit the Hamatula, it does 1d8+6 piercing damage, and it has a range of 6 feet. It works just like a Fire Shield.
It will trigger on Belhifet whenever Belhifet casts his fire spell and catches them in the area of effect. That's 5.25 damage every time Belhifet casts the spell for every Hamatula who is at most 6 feet away from him when the fire spell hits them.
The damage is negligible considering how seldom Belhifet casts the spell. And you can't turn the Hamatula against Belhifet because the Hamatula has the RINGDEMN.itm ring that grants immunity to confusion and charm. Only the Seducer kit could let you deal more damage to Belhifet by charming the Hamatula (which is very unreliable in LoB mode).
A Berserker/Druid in a poverty run would only have 3 things that could bypass Belhifet's weapon immunities:
1. Fire Elementals 2. Fire Seeds 3. Harm
The Fire Elementals aren't enough, the Fire Seeds would deal zero damage due to Belhifet's resistances, and Harm is dicey.
A nymph's Hold Monster has a 3.8% chance of paralyzing Belhifet for 20 rounds. Likewise, Harm has a 15.2% chance of hitting Belhifet if the Berserker/Druid has 9 Berserker levels and is under the effects of Bless and rage. If Harm benefits from STR bonuses, the chance of killing Belhifet with Harm is 30.4%. All of this assumes that you managed to cast Magic Resistance on Belhifet. Note that Pixie Dust will not grant a THAC0 bonus against Belhifet because he can see through invisibility.
Assuming no spell disruption--which might be possible to guarantee with enough micromanagement--the chance of killing Belhifet with a Berserker/Druid is about (1-.304)^2 = 48.4%, if Harm benefits from STR bonuses. If Harm doesn't get STR bonuses, it's about 28%.
@Harpagornis: I'm considering an Archer(7)->Mage run in this challenge so I can get STR drain kills with Called Shot in ToB, but I'm conflicted on whether I should play with or without SR and IR.
With SR and IR, I can use a very important Imprisonment strategy against Ascension Melissan: since Imprisonment uses the Maze opcode, you can just vanish four of the Five and Melissan won't cast Freedom to bring them back. I don't know if I can handle the sheer pressure in that fight without SR Imprisonment; the numbers are just absurd. SR/IR will also allow me to score an easy kill on Belhifet with Fire Shield and Mestil's Acid Sheath. Finally, IR introduces Arrows of Detonation to BG2, and while the arrows are limited, I could use them for area-effect STR drain kills. IR cripples crossbows, but the Enchanted Weapon glitch could let my Archer Mage use the Scorcher Ammunition at full APR.
But SR and IR also prevents me from using the basilisk XP loop (petrification is replaced by a permanent hold effect) and nerfs Improved Haste so that it no longer doubles APR. My simulacrum clone would have 5 APR at best, which means only Energy Blades+Improved Alacrity (to cast Called Shot twice in the same round) or Time Stop could kill critters with unusually high STR values. Plus, IR cripples Arrows of Dispelling and SI: Abjuration becomes Dispelling Screen, which vanishes after absorbing a single Dispel Magic spell.
I don't know how I could survive early BG1, the invasion of the Coalition Camp, or the siege of Dragonspear Castle with SR/IR, but I also don't know how I could kill Belhifet and Melissan without SR/IR.
Thanks for the detailed informations @semiticgod. Thats really strange cause in my observations Big B got hit by Barbed Defense even though he was NOT casting any spell (he never uses Fire spells against me thanks to resistances). Thats really strange...
With regard to the killing chance of Harm: It does not get STR bonus therefore my Druids need to roll a 20 to land the spell. Thats only 5%. Not to forget the Magic Resistance that can still block it.
As Harm alone is not enough to win the fight, Fire Elementals cannot be summoned in, Fire Seed cant touch Big B and Barbed Defense is totally unreliable the chances of success for Berserker/Druids seem to be somewhere close to 0 - no?
Regarding SR/IR @semiticgod: Personally i dont like/use both of them as they push the game too far away from its origin and that somehow doesnt feel right for this challenge. But at the end its up to you.
Early BG1 should be no big deal as there are lot of easy quests while Korax can deal with the Baslisks on its own. If everything fails you can still farm Ankhegs.
Coalition Camp with Archer/Mage should be a joke. Really. Use precast Web and Arrows of Detonation (and Dispelling) to blow them away. It wont get easier.
Big B should no big deal either as long as you are good with hit & run. Just make sure to get 100+ Invisibilty Potions.
Mel is another story but as you have seen even Bounty Hunters or Cavaliers can do it. Shouldnt the Mage be on its own powerlevel at this stage? I am sure you can create a decent plan - even without SR/IR!
P.S. Too bad there is no way to combine Berserker + Totemic Druid. This one would rule "everything"...
P.P.S. Or we can put in another rule like "against final boss enemies the gods let you pick a single divine item of your choice"
I think i got it. Thanks @semiticgod for putting the Fire Elemental on the tables again.
Here is the plan for a poverty Berserker/Druid against Big B:
1. Once the battle starts immediately summon a Fire Elemental. As the Demons are porting in and Big B is casting Dispel Magic there is enough time before anyone gets hit. Lets hope its a Greater One! 2. As the Demons will split their attacks the Fire Elemental and/or Caelar will survive much longer (!) 3. When Big B has fnished his Dispel Magic he will most likely attack Caelar. This will happen around the moment when your Fire Elemental gets into action so run up to Big B (shift into fast moving bear to minmize the time!) and cast Magic Resistance + Harm. Pray that you will roll a 20 (i think Berserker with Rage will hit with lower numbers too) and bypass his magic resistance. 4. If Big B now drops to 1 HP either let Caelar or the Fire Elemental try to get in the killing blow while the Druid casts Insect Swarm.
Essential protections: Berserker Rage, Iron Skin, Protection from Fire & Lightning! Berserker Rage should be used right before the cutscene triggers. With perfect timing this should be more than enough until Big B goes down!
In my tests so far at least one of them is still standing after the Magic Resistance + Harm combo ends - if dice luck is on your side! With bad luck both will be dead. Or you miss Harm. Or Big B goes invisible before Magic Resistance is finished. Or the Fire Elemental gets feared away (the Greater One resists most of the time). There are a lot "IF´s" in this battle but with perfect execution and lots of luck it should work. At least i hope so. My first tries have shown that this is the way to go. More tests soon. But first: Some sleep!
Yeah @Grond0 that was part of the plan i was thinking of: If Caelar and/or the Greater Fire Elemental are still up after Big B was harmonized the best option for the Druid himself is to throw in Insect Plague. As the Demons - for whatever reason - target Caelar or summons first your chances are good enough to give it a try - despite its long casting time.
However: With this tactic Big B will fall sooner or later - its just a matter of reloads!
Therefore i started a new incarnation of Krell in BG1 cause i want to see if Berserker/Druid can beat BG1 as well. If this is the case i will try to push him as far as possible into SoA. I dont bother doing this under no-reload-restrictions for the moment cause the final fights alone are just too luck based. Thats something for the future...
My question now is: How far should i push the Berserker? Level 6 would be dreamland as the Druid can still reach level 10 but i cannot see how to regain Druid levels after doing all the easy stuff. Any ideas?
Well, if you think it's a problem, you could leave a number of quest rewards not done. Once you've got charm person available at L3 it should be possible to do quite a few additional encounters with a bit of patience - nymphs obviously will then make things much easier at L7.
If you can see how to get XP I would be inclined to go for berserker L7. That would make the Sarevok fight a bit harder, but should make most other encounters easier.
From my limited experience of the SoD opening dungeon I suspect you would also struggle there even if you get past Sarevok.
Level 7 would hurt a lot against Sarevok @Grond0. Yeah, Charm might help the Druid at early levels but its duration is rather short for LoB. And what does the Berserker offer more than 4 HP bonus per level and a second rage at level 6?
The Undead in Korlasz dungeon would be painful - yes! But i have found a way around. Only precondition: You have to start SoD with at least 193375 XP so after Porios talking you will reach level 10 to summon one Fire Elemental. As in most cases my Berserker/Druids had around 220k+ XP chances are high that you wil hit level 10 right at the start. Once you moved downstairs the following path had put me through so far:
1. Call in four Nymphs and a Fire Elemental (immune to most weapons!) 2. Use the summons as bait so the Undead will target them first and lure them to the Flaming Fist 3. Now you just have to wait until - hopefully - all undead have selected a target. Cast Pixie Dust. 4. Switch to fast running bear and try to slip through. As the Undead tend to block the corridor this can be really tricky. Sometimes you just have to wait until some summons (or Flaming Fists) have gone down. 5. Sneak through enemy lines, use the door mechanism and rest just outside of Korlasz vision (does not always work!) 6. Call in a Greater Fire Elemental and cast Insect Swarm on it 7. Right before impact trigger the talking with Korlasz. Now Insect Swarm will constantly damage and interrupt her while the Fire Elemental is immune to all weapons! 8. Immediately retreat a bit and cast Pixie Dust so even if some undead follow they cannot attack you (if Bonebats try to attack you remember that they will get blocked by own troops easily so you should have no big problems avoiding them) 9. Try to block the running path of Korlasz so your Fire Elemental will have an easier time catching her 10. Wait until Korlasz drops to "Injured" and talk to her so the surrender triggers. Try to time the talking so that only a minimum of Followers can target you cause sometimes it happens that they will shoot one more time which might result in a painful death. 11. Once you have survived its time to move on to the city once more - job done!
The whole process will most likely need a lot of reloads as in some cases you just cannot slip through the undead or some latecomers target you and immediately follow (which will make casting Pixie Dust really tricky). Sometimes the Dispelling Trap triggers so early that even with bear speed the followers discovered me, sometimes resting will not work, sometimes the talking triggered so late that Insect Swarm was just gone before they turned hostile. Another time the Fire Elemental was blocked by the Followers so it had to kill several of them before catching up Korlasz and more than one time i got killed after Korlasz surrendered as several followers continued shooting. At the end its just a matter of reloads, luck and a lot of patience...
Level 7 would hurt a lot against Sarevok @Grond0. Yeah, Charm might help the Druid at early levels but its duration is rather short for LoB. And what does the Berserker offer more than 4 HP bonus per level and a second rage at level 6?
I was thinking of the extra APR and THAC0 - that should help significantly when tanking with ironskins, but if you're intending to rely purely on summons I agree that's less of an issue.
With all this talk of poverty runs I thought I would see how far a sorcerer could get. Early levels would be a bit of a pain just using spells so I took find familiar as a starting spell. That makes basilisks easy, to provide a nice XP boost, but plenty of other work has been done as well - the combination of skull trap, acid arrows and MMs often being sufficient to take down enemies without resting.
Fael the sorcerer is up to level 8 and has just completed the Nashkel Mines. Without the ability to charm Mulahey he used a skull trap barrage from out of sight - Mulahey failed to react to that beyond summoning some friends to die with him.
Interesting reading this thread was in my holidays, my fingers are also itching to get back into the game again. One thing has been bugging me, why is it called a "poverty run"? Shouldn't it be called a "spellcaster run" as it plays for the strenght of spellcasters? The opposite would be "silenced run", which would play to other skills? Lets add also no talking besides main plot, as using no money besides quests.
Comments
I tested Korlasz dungeon just for fun and a Greater Fire Elemental plus three Spirit Lions together with the Flaming Fist were able to beat the first group of undead. After that Krell could just sneak through to Korlasz calling in Spirit Wolves and a Fire Elemental while timing Insect Swarm so that it hit right after she went hostile. Worked like a charm. I think with his summons i could beat everything in SoD up to Big B which would be - pretty much like Sarevok - another neverending nightmare. Damn, damn, damn it!!!
The main problem is to take out all of his friends before saving the Spirit Lions as long as possible. And avoid dying!
I'm surprised you were being successful with dispel magic. In LoB that would be expected to have virtually no chance of success as Sarevok is so much higher level than you.
@Grond0: Dispel Magic + Farsight indeed works!!! The problem is: If you kill Semaj or Tazok Sarevok will trigger the talking but Diarmid and Angelo will NOT appear. Which also means: Sarevok is immortal.
The trick is: Hack Tazok and Semaj down to nearly dead (maybe using CTRL+M) and only then trigger the talking. Angelo and Diarmid will port in but the others are still close to death.
When now charming Diarmid he will take down Tazok in no time. Another option: Cast Insect Swarm on one of the bats in front of them to take them out and only then charm Diarmid. Which would mean: Only Angelo is left.
But as we all know: Angelo will easily die to the Spirit Summons. Which means only Sarevok would be left...
Time for more tests!
In my install, he has a permanent haste ring that can't be dispelled.
Update: Sarevok is no more! After many, many reloads Krell the Totemic Druid managed to beat him.
Okay, i nearly got Sarevok down even though i think there is room for improvement:1. Dispel Magic to get rid of Haste as well as making Semaj and Tazok visible
2a. Move along the east and use one Spirit Lion to bring both close to zero
2b. Alternativly use Animal Summon II to bring both close to zero
3. Retreat the summon and trigger the talking so Diarmid and Angelo port in
4. Insect Swarm on Bat in front of the group which will kill Tazok and Semaj
5. In most cases this activates Angelo who will run directly into the Spirit Lion
6. Let one Spirit Lion take down Angelo even though this may take a while
7. Hide and wait until Diarmids PfM expires
8a. Call in four Nymphs and cast Pixie Dust to get them into position unseen
8b. Without Pixie Dust split them up and let one Nymph soak up all the hits
9. Cast Mental Domination on Diarmod (~50% chance) and let him shoot Sarevok
10. Wait until Diarmid is dead and call in Spirit Lion - play hit & run with Sarevok
The last part so far is the hardest as the Skeleton Warriors prove to be a major pain.
Any ideas are welcome!
EDIT: Another real close fight where Sarevok was left with 23 HP only before the last Spirit Lion went down. Damn it. Diarmid made this one a lot easier cause the Nymphs bought him a lot of time and he put down good damage on Sarevok ("only" 668 HP left). Still not enough cause of some bad moves at the end. The rest of the fight works really smooth in most cases (only the Diarmid charming is pure dice luck) so with some lucky rolls and fresh minded micromanagement a naked Totemic Druid should win even this final battle!
EDIT2: Most critical part will be to lure away Sarevok without pulling the Skeleton Warriors (at least there is no improved call for help). But still: Tricky one. A single Skeleton can be handled while two or more around Sarevok makes the fight more or less impossible. Its all about positioning now. But first: Some rest!
EDIT3: Last close call before rest. Sarevok again down to nearly dead but at the end i unfortunately pulled two Skeletons (.....) who made short work of the last Spirit Lion. Krell tried to save the day but: No!
EDIT4: As i cannot sleep i tried the final fight a little bit more using Animal Summoning instead of Spirit Lion at the very start. It failed hard cause the Wolves are just not hitting hard enough (as well as missing too often). With one Spirit Lion Semaj and Tazok dropped low really fast while always taking a close look at their HP with CTRL+M.
The next critical phase started after Diarmid got charmed. I splitted the three Nymphs as far as possible to gain more time before they got killed. Time Diarmid used to constantly shoot Acid Arrows at Sarevok (too bad Mental Domination lasts only eight rounds). But: As he nearly always hits this still takes away lots of HP (around 600+ if everything works perfect).
It was absolutely crucial that Diarmid is standing far away from the door once he turns hostile again as the other Skeleton Warriors will also gather around him. Parking them near Sarevoks starting points gives enough room for the next and final kiting phase.
In a perfect scenario we have parked Sarevok so that we can pull him solo to our second Spirit Lion (Lion cause he has the best APR and a really good punch). From now on Krell tried to get Sarevoks attention so his Lions will get a lot attacks of opportunity. Running in circles had proven to be the most efficient way (sometimes even the Bats will block Sarevok shortly) while always watching if his evil brother switches the target (he will randomly do this from time to time). If this happened the Lion was running while Krell tried to get into Sarevoks path regaining his attention. Without Haste it was all about quick pause and a little bit micromanagement. For me it felt easier with every new round so in this last and final try both of them got hit only once. I did not count the rounds but as the Lion remains for 6 turns there was plenty of time getting in enough hits (4 APR & 10-17 damage hurted even Sarevok quite a lot!):
That was a hell of a fight and one that slowly turned from "impossible" to "still hard but somehow manageable". There are many things that can go wrong and without "some" luck it can be over really fast. Doing this in a no-reload-run would be a nerve-racking thriller.
Its also clear that without summons and the nice spell collection Krell would have failed forever here - which shows again how powerful the Totemic Druid is for this challenge. SoD will be another story even though i am quite sure that he can beat everything up to Avernus. Big B himself feels untouchable at the moment - even more than Sarevok before. Should i give it a try? Maybe...
Cause after dispelling Tazoks and Semajs invisibility you can just walk along the eastern part so you can see both of them but NOT Sarevok. This means: Another Nymph summon and even more time for Diarmid to shoot at Sarevok.
With some luck you can also extend Mental Domination a bit more when delaying the casting of at least one Nymph - just let it stay back a bit so it wont get targeted first. More time, more damage.
You can also cast two times Animal Summoning I and split them on Semaj and Tazok. This will save one Spirit Lion which could be used against Sarevok later. The downside is that you need good rolls especially on Tazok to lower his HP far enough before the summons vanish again (3 turns is not always enough). It will also mean that only two Nymphs will be present for charming Diarmid. With reloads this doesnt matter but in a no-reload-setting this path seems a little bit unreliable.
Yeah, you are right @Grond0 and @semiticgod. With reloads its theoretically possible to get in Magic Resistance, land Harm and not getting feared in between even though it will take dozens of reloads.
As Krell has already beaten Korlasz i think that i will let him roll a bit more - no?
EDIT: Okay, there seems to be an even better way. Instead of Pixie Dust you can memorize Animal Summoning II. These summons hit hard enough to bring Semaj and Tazok close to zero before vanishing again. This puts us back to four Nymphs but we lack invisibility. To get around this i moved in to Diarmid from all sides so that one of them will soak up their attention while the other three get out Mental Domination on Diarmid. Pixie Dust makes things easier but seems not to be essential. This also means that the first Spirit Lion will still be around when Diarmid dies so hunting down Sarevok should be much easier...
Each time Krell gets feared even before Magic Resistance is out. The problem: His Save vs Wands is only at 9. Take in Big B´s malus (was it -3?) the chances of getting feared during the whole process is quite high. Not to forget: The Bone Fiend also uses Cloak of Fear which drops chances more. Plus the Demons are constantly using Hold Person on him (Domination is blocked by Chaotic Commands). Even if Harm can somehow be casted Krell would still need to roll a 20 landing it AND get in a little bit more damage afterwards (Spirit Summon?). How many reloads would be needed here? Thousand? More?
However: My question to @Grond0 regarding the rules of poverty runs: Is it allowed to use gold buying quest items (Firebeads book) or help others (Farmer Brun)?
Overconfidence is no life assurance and so the first thing i had to learn with my Cleric of Thalos: Storm Shield is not fast enough when meeting Bandit Archers. Damn it!
My version of poverty is rather stricter than the original poverty challenge @semiticgod referred to. In summary:
- you can't pay for any items or services, but you can pay for quests.
- you can't use or equip anything (except magically created weapons such as MMMs, ghoul touch etc).
Thus I couldn't pay for a book for Firebead (but there is one of those in the house immediately south of him anyway). You could, however, pay for the quest for Farmer Brun (if you don't allow that sort of thing you would be forced to make a rules exception to allow you to pay the 15,000 gold required in BG2).
@Grond0: What about magically created weapons like non-SR Fire Seeds or SR's Enchanted Weapon, items that can be given to other party members? Are Goodberries acceptable?
- Gold for quests: Yes!
- Gold for items or services: No!
- Items only if they are temporary created by spells like Flame Blade, Shillelag and so on. Goodberries are acceptable too.
- Equipping items - if not essential for the main quest: No! Exception: Shapeshifting Tokens for Druids as they are innate abilities.
P.S. I have tested the fight against Big B a little bit more after failing hard with Totemic Druid. So far i think that the one and only class that - maybe - can beat Big B in a poverty run using our rule setting is the Berserker -> Druid. Rage keeps him immune to Charm, Paralyzation and Fear while Protection from Fire and Lightning negates elemental attacks. With Iron Skin up, good timing and a universe filled with luck this char can at least bring Big B down to 1 HP. So far i was able to cast Magic Resistance + Harm but - you know it - i failed landing it. But that is just a matter of time. My only question would be: How to land the killing blow?
1. Caelar Argent dies mostly too fast before the whole Magic Resistance + Harm combo goes through
2. Even if it works there seems to be no way getting in the killing blow on Big B
Caelar can hit Big B but keeping her alive is (nearly) impossible. My idea using Dolorous Decay does not work as Big B doesnt die even if he fails his save. Calling in a Fire Elemental seems to be no option either as the casting time is far too long.
My only hope would be the Hamatula and a perfectly triggered Barbed Defense. Can anyone explain me how this skill works? Sure it triggers when the Hamatula gets hit but i have watched Big B getting damaged too (one time he also got killed by it). How was that possible? Maybe @semiticgod can give me an answer? What about you @Ardanis?
Thanks for any ideas how to finish Big B with my poverty Berserker/Druid!
It will trigger on Belhifet whenever Belhifet casts his fire spell and catches them in the area of effect. That's 5.25 damage every time Belhifet casts the spell for every Hamatula who is at most 6 feet away from him when the fire spell hits them.
The damage is negligible considering how seldom Belhifet casts the spell. And you can't turn the Hamatula against Belhifet because the Hamatula has the RINGDEMN.itm ring that grants immunity to confusion and charm. Only the Seducer kit could let you deal more damage to Belhifet by charming the Hamatula (which is very unreliable in LoB mode).
A Berserker/Druid in a poverty run would only have 3 things that could bypass Belhifet's weapon immunities:
1. Fire Elementals
2. Fire Seeds
3. Harm
The Fire Elementals aren't enough, the Fire Seeds would deal zero damage due to Belhifet's resistances, and Harm is dicey.
A nymph's Hold Monster has a 3.8% chance of paralyzing Belhifet for 20 rounds. Likewise, Harm has a 15.2% chance of hitting Belhifet if the Berserker/Druid has 9 Berserker levels and is under the effects of Bless and rage. If Harm benefits from STR bonuses, the chance of killing Belhifet with Harm is 30.4%. All of this assumes that you managed to cast Magic Resistance on Belhifet. Note that Pixie Dust will not grant a THAC0 bonus against Belhifet because he can see through invisibility.
Assuming no spell disruption--which might be possible to guarantee with enough micromanagement--the chance of killing Belhifet with a Berserker/Druid is about (1-.304)^2 = 48.4%, if Harm benefits from STR bonuses. If Harm doesn't get STR bonuses, it's about 28%.
That's about the best we can hope for, I think.
With SR and IR, I can use a very important Imprisonment strategy against Ascension Melissan: since Imprisonment uses the Maze opcode, you can just vanish four of the Five and Melissan won't cast Freedom to bring them back. I don't know if I can handle the sheer pressure in that fight without SR Imprisonment; the numbers are just absurd. SR/IR will also allow me to score an easy kill on Belhifet with Fire Shield and Mestil's Acid Sheath. Finally, IR introduces Arrows of Detonation to BG2, and while the arrows are limited, I could use them for area-effect STR drain kills. IR cripples crossbows, but the Enchanted Weapon glitch could let my Archer Mage use the Scorcher Ammunition at full APR.
But SR and IR also prevents me from using the basilisk XP loop (petrification is replaced by a permanent hold effect) and nerfs Improved Haste so that it no longer doubles APR. My simulacrum clone would have 5 APR at best, which means only Energy Blades+Improved Alacrity (to cast Called Shot twice in the same round) or Time Stop could kill critters with unusually high STR values. Plus, IR cripples Arrows of Dispelling and SI: Abjuration becomes Dispelling Screen, which vanishes after absorbing a single Dispel Magic spell.
I don't know how I could survive early BG1, the invasion of the Coalition Camp, or the siege of Dragonspear Castle with SR/IR, but I also don't know how I could kill Belhifet and Melissan without SR/IR.
With regard to the killing chance of Harm: It does not get STR bonus therefore my Druids need to roll a 20 to land the spell. Thats only 5%. Not to forget the Magic Resistance that can still block it.
As Harm alone is not enough to win the fight, Fire Elementals cannot be summoned in, Fire Seed cant touch Big B and Barbed Defense is totally unreliable the chances of success for Berserker/Druids seem to be somewhere close to 0 - no?
Regarding SR/IR @semiticgod: Personally i dont like/use both of them as they push the game too far away from its origin and that somehow doesnt feel right for this challenge. But at the end its up to you.
Early BG1 should be no big deal as there are lot of easy quests while Korax can deal with the Baslisks on its own. If everything fails you can still farm Ankhegs.
Coalition Camp with Archer/Mage should be a joke. Really. Use precast Web and Arrows of Detonation (and Dispelling) to blow them away. It wont get easier.
Big B should no big deal either as long as you are good with hit & run. Just make sure to get 100+ Invisibilty Potions.
Mel is another story but as you have seen even Bounty Hunters or Cavaliers can do it. Shouldnt the Mage be on its own powerlevel at this stage? I am sure you can create a decent plan - even without SR/IR!
P.S. Too bad there is no way to combine Berserker + Totemic Druid. This one would rule "everything"...
P.P.S. Or we can put in another rule like "against final boss enemies the gods let you pick a single divine item of your choice"
Here is the plan for a poverty Berserker/Druid against Big B:
1. Once the battle starts immediately summon a Fire Elemental. As the Demons are porting in and Big B is casting Dispel Magic there is enough time before anyone gets hit. Lets hope its a Greater One!
2. As the Demons will split their attacks the Fire Elemental and/or Caelar will survive much longer (!)
3. When Big B has fnished his Dispel Magic he will most likely attack Caelar. This will happen around the moment when your Fire Elemental gets into action so run up to Big B (shift into fast moving bear to minmize the time!) and cast Magic Resistance + Harm. Pray that you will roll a 20 (i think Berserker with Rage will hit with lower numbers too) and bypass his magic resistance.
4. If Big B now drops to 1 HP either let Caelar or the Fire Elemental try to get in the killing blow while the Druid casts Insect Swarm.
Essential protections: Berserker Rage, Iron Skin, Protection from Fire & Lightning! Berserker Rage should be used right before the cutscene triggers. With perfect timing this should be more than enough until Big B goes down!
In my tests so far at least one of them is still standing after the Magic Resistance + Harm combo ends - if dice luck is on your side! With bad luck both will be dead. Or you miss Harm. Or Big B goes invisible before Magic Resistance is finished. Or the Fire Elemental gets feared away (the Greater One resists most of the time). There are a lot "IF´s" in this battle but with perfect execution and lots of luck it should work. At least i hope so. My first tries have shown that this is the way to go. More tests soon. But first: Some sleep!
However: With this tactic Big B will fall sooner or later - its just a matter of reloads!
Therefore i started a new incarnation of Krell in BG1 cause i want to see if Berserker/Druid can beat BG1 as well. If this is the case i will try to push him as far as possible into SoA. I dont bother doing this under no-reload-restrictions for the moment cause the final fights alone are just too luck based. Thats something for the future...
My question now is: How far should i push the Berserker? Level 6 would be dreamland as the Druid can still reach level 10 but i cannot see how to regain Druid levels after doing all the easy stuff. Any ideas?
If you can see how to get XP I would be inclined to go for berserker L7. That would make the Sarevok fight a bit harder, but should make most other encounters easier.
From my limited experience of the SoD opening dungeon I suspect you would also struggle there even if you get past Sarevok.
The Undead in Korlasz dungeon would be painful - yes! But i have found a way around. Only precondition: You have to start SoD with at least 193375 XP so after Porios talking you will reach level 10 to summon one Fire Elemental. As in most cases my Berserker/Druids had around 220k+ XP chances are high that you wil hit level 10 right at the start. Once you moved downstairs the following path had put me through so far:
1. Call in four Nymphs and a Fire Elemental (immune to most weapons!)
2. Use the summons as bait so the Undead will target them first and lure them to the Flaming Fist
3. Now you just have to wait until - hopefully - all undead have selected a target. Cast Pixie Dust.
4. Switch to fast running bear and try to slip through. As the Undead tend to block the corridor this can be really tricky. Sometimes you just have to wait until some summons (or Flaming Fists) have gone down.
5. Sneak through enemy lines, use the door mechanism and rest just outside of Korlasz vision (does not always work!)
6. Call in a Greater Fire Elemental and cast Insect Swarm on it
7. Right before impact trigger the talking with Korlasz. Now Insect Swarm will constantly damage and interrupt her while the Fire Elemental is immune to all weapons!
8. Immediately retreat a bit and cast Pixie Dust so even if some undead follow they cannot attack you (if Bonebats try to attack you remember that they will get blocked by own troops easily so you should have no big problems avoiding them)
9. Try to block the running path of Korlasz so your Fire Elemental will have an easier time catching her
10. Wait until Korlasz drops to "Injured" and talk to her so the surrender triggers. Try to time the talking so that only a minimum of Followers can target you cause sometimes it happens that they will shoot one more time which might result in a painful death.
11. Once you have survived its time to move on to the city once more - job done!
The whole process will most likely need a lot of reloads as in some cases you just cannot slip through the undead or some latecomers target you and immediately follow (which will make casting Pixie Dust really tricky). Sometimes the Dispelling Trap triggers so early that even with bear speed the followers discovered me, sometimes resting will not work, sometimes the talking triggered so late that Insect Swarm was just gone before they turned hostile. Another time the Fire Elemental was blocked by the Followers so it had to kill several of them before catching up Korlasz and more than one time i got killed after Korlasz surrendered as several followers continued shooting. At the end its just a matter of reloads, luck and a lot of patience...
Fael the sorcerer is up to level 8 and has just completed the Nashkel Mines. Without the ability to charm Mulahey he used a skull trap barrage from out of sight - Mulahey failed to react to that beyond summoning some friends to die with him.