End Game Decision - What's your choice? (Massive spoilers)
Wandering_Ranger
Member Posts: 175
This is actually quite a deep conundrum surrounding the concept of freedom, so this question is rather philosophical in nature because it delves into the nature of who we truly are.
Throughout the entire saga you struggle against overwhelming odds, battling through the wilderness, cities, even politics and religion. You love, you lose, you literally die, and you return to life. You have known friends, enemies, and betrayals. What an adventure it has been! Finally, the long road ends and the conclusion arrives in the form of a difficult choice:
1. Godhood. Become the next Lord of Murder. This choice is of the power-seeking evil path, but it is so hard not to want it considering everything you have been through. After all, who wouldn't want to be a God? The temptation is great. Apart from being evil, however, this choice is also the choice of "not-freedom" (you are a slave to destiny and have never made your own path in life - you were just an actor in a script, a creature born to fulfil a prophecy). If you choose to follow the path of Godhood, you have never escaped your sire's shadow and will merely be Bhaal Junior. But it is a satisfying choice to make because the story "ends" there. Your goal is accomplished. There is closure. (Please do not argue that you could "overcome" this dark essence and somehow be a force for good - there is absolutely nothing in the game to suggest this, and much to suggest the opposite. Such an argument is the mere wishful thinking of having your cake and eating it. This is definitely a choice of succumbing to power, evil, and darkness, which is the whole point behind such a difficult decision at the end of a long saga.)
2. Freedom. This is the good or neutral choice. Your own path indicates that although you have given up on Godlike power, you are also choosing a path of independence. The entire saga can be viewed as an overwhelming task you had to do in order to throw off the chains of your birth. After it is over and done with, you are ready to cast away the shadow of the past and be truly free for the first time - no more prophecy, nothing you HAVE to do... Just life as you wish to live it. Whether you want to be a farmer or an adventurer, mercenary, Baron or anything else is entirely up to you. Though you do not get to be all-powerful or immortal via this choice, it is the choice of the person who wishes to be truly free, no matter the cost (ie, giving up Godhood). This can be incredibly satisfying too, if chosen, because the story does not "end" there - you can imagine all sorts of different things the Bhaalspawn gets up to post-TOB. But perhaps some people like definitive closure so this would not appeal to them.
Who knows? The choice is yours.
The point of this poll is what did you choose and why? Obviously for those of us who have played the game more times have experienced both paths, but this question is asking you what would you choose if *you yourself* were making such a decision? No reloads, no do-overs: Just a one-time choice.
It doesn't matter what you picked on your first playthrough, or tenth. All that matters is that you've thought thoroughly about this decision and are able to make up your mind one way or another. What is the right choice for you and why?
It is a very strange decision to make because it seems counter-intuitive in many ways. Surely, as a God you would have attained ultimate freedom, because you have so much power. Yet it isn't. The true path of freedom lies in not being ultimately powerful in this instance. This choice would be one of freedom if you had chosen this path for yourself. For example, what Irenicus was trying to do is a choice born of freedom. He isn't a Bhaalspawn but wanted Godlike power. He *freely* chose that path. Ditto Amelyssan. You didn't (nor did Sarevok). You were born into destiny, and the question remains: Will you shake yourself free of it, or be chained to it - but as a God?
"Weak," mortal, and free? Powerful, immortal, but a slave to both destiny and a taint within?
(I have not presented a third option because the game itself doesn't give us one.)
Godhood, or Freedom?
Throughout the entire saga you struggle against overwhelming odds, battling through the wilderness, cities, even politics and religion. You love, you lose, you literally die, and you return to life. You have known friends, enemies, and betrayals. What an adventure it has been! Finally, the long road ends and the conclusion arrives in the form of a difficult choice:
1. Godhood. Become the next Lord of Murder. This choice is of the power-seeking evil path, but it is so hard not to want it considering everything you have been through. After all, who wouldn't want to be a God? The temptation is great. Apart from being evil, however, this choice is also the choice of "not-freedom" (you are a slave to destiny and have never made your own path in life - you were just an actor in a script, a creature born to fulfil a prophecy). If you choose to follow the path of Godhood, you have never escaped your sire's shadow and will merely be Bhaal Junior. But it is a satisfying choice to make because the story "ends" there. Your goal is accomplished. There is closure. (Please do not argue that you could "overcome" this dark essence and somehow be a force for good - there is absolutely nothing in the game to suggest this, and much to suggest the opposite. Such an argument is the mere wishful thinking of having your cake and eating it. This is definitely a choice of succumbing to power, evil, and darkness, which is the whole point behind such a difficult decision at the end of a long saga.)
2. Freedom. This is the good or neutral choice. Your own path indicates that although you have given up on Godlike power, you are also choosing a path of independence. The entire saga can be viewed as an overwhelming task you had to do in order to throw off the chains of your birth. After it is over and done with, you are ready to cast away the shadow of the past and be truly free for the first time - no more prophecy, nothing you HAVE to do... Just life as you wish to live it. Whether you want to be a farmer or an adventurer, mercenary, Baron or anything else is entirely up to you. Though you do not get to be all-powerful or immortal via this choice, it is the choice of the person who wishes to be truly free, no matter the cost (ie, giving up Godhood). This can be incredibly satisfying too, if chosen, because the story does not "end" there - you can imagine all sorts of different things the Bhaalspawn gets up to post-TOB. But perhaps some people like definitive closure so this would not appeal to them.
Who knows? The choice is yours.
The point of this poll is what did you choose and why? Obviously for those of us who have played the game more times have experienced both paths, but this question is asking you what would you choose if *you yourself* were making such a decision? No reloads, no do-overs: Just a one-time choice.
It doesn't matter what you picked on your first playthrough, or tenth. All that matters is that you've thought thoroughly about this decision and are able to make up your mind one way or another. What is the right choice for you and why?
It is a very strange decision to make because it seems counter-intuitive in many ways. Surely, as a God you would have attained ultimate freedom, because you have so much power. Yet it isn't. The true path of freedom lies in not being ultimately powerful in this instance. This choice would be one of freedom if you had chosen this path for yourself. For example, what Irenicus was trying to do is a choice born of freedom. He isn't a Bhaalspawn but wanted Godlike power. He *freely* chose that path. Ditto Amelyssan. You didn't (nor did Sarevok). You were born into destiny, and the question remains: Will you shake yourself free of it, or be chained to it - but as a God?
"Weak," mortal, and free? Powerful, immortal, but a slave to both destiny and a taint within?
(I have not presented a third option because the game itself doesn't give us one.)
Godhood, or Freedom?
- End Game Decision - What's your choice? (Massive spoilers)103 votes
- Godhood37.86%
- Freedom62.14%
7
Comments
I'm the kind of person that would rather achieve inner peace and live free than possess great power. As the end suggest, becoming a god is only the start of a new struggle : Cyric, for instance, is not going to be happy that you chose to walk the path of your father (and his portfolio), which he pretty much took for himself.
On that, I agree with you : becoming a god is nice and all in theory, but it is actually a very complicated thing to deal with. With all the power struggles between the gods of Abeir-Toril and their hierarchy, it will not be a walk in the park to become the newbie. Plus, being a god is does NOT mean absolute immortality. Even a god can die ; think of your own father Bhaal, Bane, Mystra and Amaunator,... They're not all technically dead forever, but they prove that a god CAN die.
and if they have a romance that is a big red flag for no godhood.
Just like to point out the game doesn't make it clear that you cannot overcome the evil taint. The Solar even offers to stand by you and help you overcome any evil taint so that you can become a force for good. The epilog even says as much.
Anyway, so why Godhood?
Immortality, quite simple.
I like to play as human or at least half human and throughout the game the short lifespan of humans is mentioned many times.
You finish TOB and what are you, heading for 25?
So less than another 20 years and the effects of aging will be felt. The adventuring/fighting life style will have taken it's toll, chances are health problems will start to show up ect.
Meanwhile, a lot of those you meet will be looking forward to hundreds of years more.
I think that would affect humans in the FR more than the game deals with (obviously that's not in the games remit).
So as an extended lifetime is not on offer, I'd go for Godhood, (though I might try and haggle about it, "you can have the "taint" back and lock it up safely but in return, couple of hundred years at least please").
The reason the Solar offers to stand by you is because she knows the difficulty of keeping the taint within, and she doesn't want to see you succumb to it (she is also impressed by your resilience). If you were taking up the mantle of a god of love, for instance, there'd be nothing to worry about and she would light-heartedly send you on your way. The heaviness of the dialogue between you and the Solar, as well as your companions before the final choice indicates that choosing to succumb to your destiny is not a path of good. At best, it's a path of extreme optimism.
In any case, we can nitpick at such things forever. The larger point here is that those who chose freedom are choosing not to be defined by their birth. Even if the choice was to be a god of love the argument would still be the same.
If you choose Godhood, you are a slave to destiny and prophecy. If you choose Freedom, you are finally your own person outside the parameters of your birth. Nothing defines you any longer except yourself (in many ways, that in itself is godhood!).
I am personally stunned by how many people chose freedom. An overwhelmingly one-sided response.
It is very pleasing to see that there are enough individuals here who value their own freedom (both spiritual and material) above even things such as Godhood and immortality.
I pick godhood because I'm a contrarian at heart and both Cyric and the Solar attempt to push you into remaining mortal. Though you could make a case about the Solar employing reverse psychology -- Ao is the only one who could have sent it your way and it's not a stretch to imagine he wants to see ascend a god who does his job correctly.
If you wanted to be a good god, you would need to quickly figure out how to acquire a new portfolio--one that all the other gods somehow forgot to claim after thousands of years of competition. Otherwise you will quickly die from a lack of worshippers.
Your prospects as a good-aligned or neutral-aligned deity would boil down to withholding the portfolio of murder from Cyric as long as you can, until you die of neglect. Surviving as a god is not realistic given the circumstances, because your alignment prevents you from exploiting the very basis of your godhood.
Good-aligned gods of murder are more or less doomed to get absorbed by Cyric unless they can come up with a very clever plan to get around those limitations.
Also... GODHOOD. Come on.
Either you wanted responses and can accept that others do not agree with you or you shouldn't have started this thread.
It's a little rude to imply that people who gave the "wrong" response, in your opinion, do not value freedom.
Perhaps I am mature enough to realise that people are very rarely free, nor do they want to be, when it entails overthrowing everything they were bought up to believe.
Individuality is extremely overated and usually turns out to be nothing of the sort.
Everybody is defined by their birth/upbringing, how else does Charname even have any comprehension of good/evil?
You talk about a "God of Love" why?
What has taught you as Charname to understand love, that it is "better" than hate?
Why do you even write that?
Had Bhaal been a good God, and Charname bought up by a murderous sect where survival/advancement depended on murder, you really think the "taint" would be enough to overcome upbringing?
When push came to shove, murder would have been the response.
Maybe by ascending, you truely gain freedom because you would be freed from the constraints of your birth/upbring?
Those simply wouldn't be of concern any longer.
Judging from your response you seem to have a very narrow definition of freedom.
So you don't ascend, and then what?
Will you still need money/food/shelter?
I presume so, and like most, have to compromise freedom to obtain them.
Will you have to fight and carry on fighting to stay alive when you know full well that there are going to be many who would prefer you dead just in case the "taint" is still a part of you?
Will you have to justify the choices that you have made?
Will you be judged?
Will you have to answer for the slaughter that has followed the Bhaalspawn, as the others are all dead, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Charname became the one to carry the can.
I'm just wondering what form you imagine this "freedom" will take?
Being free to make choices doesn't mean freedom to me. It's not having to make choices at all because you have ascended beyond where choices have to be made. All possibilities are open.
@semiticgod I don't actually think it would be that difficult to find a new portfolio and survive as a god. There may be many gods in the Forgotten Realms setting, but not everything is covered, and there is definitely a certain amount of overlap between gods (see under: Selûne, Sehanine, and Eilistraee). It would be quite appropriate, for instance, for Charname to have a seat in dad's chair and twist its purpose on its head, becoming something like a god of widow(er)s and orphans whose calling is to safeguard against untimely (and especially violent) death and protect those left behind when such tragedy strikes. They might also guide the souls of innocent murder victims into a peaceful afterlife. Such a portfolio would quickly earn Charname allies among gods like Helm, Bahamut, Ilmater, etc., who would then be willing to aid in fighting Cyric.
All that aside, my Charname chose to remain mortal, though she did realize she was passing up an opportunity to undo her father's work on a massive scale and be a literal force for good. She didn't make the decision based on ideas about freedom, but rather on the fact that she was just tired and didn't want to have to keep dealing with other gods for the rest of eternity like some never-ending, epic stakes version of Mean Girls. Plus, she didn't want to abandon Imoen and Rasaad and her other friends or her obligations to Imnesvale as its ranger. The entire fact that she even has a choice to begin with sort of disproves to her the notion that destiny is anything but what you make of it.
Honestly, Godhood isn't even an option for me, I'm almost 18 and I've found myself bored on so many situations, I would never ever consider extending my lifetime to an indefinite amount of time. No way sir, I've already had enough by now.
Also, this:
And freedom is no choice at all unless you're suicidal. You think you can relax on your turnip farm? You will die the moment you let your guard down because there's so many people, factions, liches, etc that want you dead. And don't forget there's still a 100,000 gold bounty on your head! Godhood is your only hope.
This actually reminds me of an individual I had an argument with surrounding the concept of free will some years ago. His argument was "we don't have free will. If I jump off a cliff, I don't have the will NOT to fall,or will myself to fall up."
This individual, like you, simply doesn't understand what freedom is and is making null arguments because of that.
Of course you will need food, shelter, and surprisingly enough, air to breathe as well. Needing these things does not entail being not free, just as not being able to fall "up" doesn't disprove the existence of free will.
Being able to make your own choices, your own mistakes, and not being bound by anything (especially a concept like prophecy, which reduces people to mere actors in a script they did not write) is the very essence of freedom.
Your definition of freedom is... what, exactly? Floating in aether for eternity and somehow enjoying a perfect existence while needing nothing outside of you to sustain yourself?
"It's not having to make choices at all because you have ascended beyond where choices have to be made. All possibilities are open."
This is logically absurd. In your scenario, no possibilities are open, for there are no choices to be made. This isn't the definition of freedom. It's a description of death.
So you could end up being the Lord of Murder, Parties, Booze, Knowledge and Dragons if you felt like it.
Nine hells you could just keep on going and off all the other gods but I'd just do one or two to avoid a war. Take over a nice realm, something with little floating islands and endless reverie because there is no way am I living in a creepy demon plane filled with slayers.
If you're okay with living in a demon realm there is zero reason not to expand your influence further into the pits. Murder or subjugate your lesser neighbors, this won't even get any gods upset with you, demons kill demons all the time. I mean it would be a simple thing to wage a war against most of the major demonic gods, Take Lloth for instants. Start a war with Lloth and you instantly have the backing of the entire Elven patheon, plus probably half the drow patheon.
God of opposite alignment.
I think that choosing godhood would be equal to throwing everythng that made you who you are away. Also, the power you recieve as a deity is not really yours, but your father's. Where is satisfaction with that, coming to power by not your own strength? There are people who would do that without hesistation, but not I and not majority of my charnames.
Also, if what was stated by someone in this topic is true (the part about deities owning the souls of their worshippers), then majority of my charnames wouldn't dare to LOWER themselves to these assholes' level.
That being said, some of my charnames would choose being a deity and would have viable reasons for doing so. Like power-obsessed psychopath or paladin wanting to sacriface his mortality to contribute towards sometihng greater.
But in this case, things are different. You are claiming what already is partly yours, and you aren't stealing any portfolio. Personally, however, I chose the freedom ending, mostly because being a deity of murder didn't sit well with me, because that would have meant leaving friends behind, and because being a deity changes you (just look at what Kelemvor had to do).
Regarding Lolth, Bhaal himself was an intermediary power. You would probably start as less than that, since in Faerun, a god is only as powerful as the number of worshippers they have. You would have close to zero to begin with therefore starting out as a lesser deity and working your way up. Since your portfolio is murder, there is no way to take anyone else's portfolio, therefore the only followers you could attract are evildoers and murderers.
Lolth is an intermediary deity. Starting a war with her would probably get you annihilated, for she is older, more experienced, has more followers, and is therefore more powerful. The Elven pantheon would not support you, for your portfolio of murder would go against everything they stood for. They would view it as two of their enemies hacking each other to pieces, which would mean less work for them.