If you want extra combat info add the following to the LUA file: SetPrivateProfileString('Game Options','Extra Combat Info','1')
Here's an example of the sort of information you get: That shows the base attack roll together with all the possible sources of modifiers to that. In this example the only modifier is a -1 as a result of the dog having a piercing attack and my character wearing studded leather armor. Similarly the information shows the base damage roll following a successful attack and the possible modifiers to that.
Please note though that this information still does not tell you what you need to hit - the AC of the enemy you're attacking is not included in the modifier scores. You thus can't tell directly just from a displayed roll whether it should be a hit or not.
I appreciate the effort to sound like Quayle, but I don't think it's the best way to get help with your problem. Sometimes Charisma higher than 9 is pretty handy.
x (roll) + y (modifier, which ac should affect) = hit if > thac0. I understand that fully. What's weird is my y value, the modifier, is changing. No weapons changes, no armor changes, same target. Also, my totals are calculated wrong sometimes. Rolled a 12, with my thac0 of 9 with bows, and got a miss.
The modifiers to your THAC0 (e.g., Dex bonus, weapon enchantment, spell effects) as well as special modifiers to the target's AC (e.g., armor bonuses/penalties vs. certain attack types) are included in the "+y", but the target's base AC is not.
In your first example, the Greater Doppelganger has AC 0. Your PC's base THAC0 is 16, so he needs a 16 to hit after modifiers. Your rolls were: * 13 + 10 = 23: Hit * 2 + 10 = 12: Miss * 9 + 10 = 19: Hit
It appears to be working*.
* I don't have a full accounting of your equipment, race, class, ability scores, spell effects, etc.. Basically, you have not provided enough information to ascertain if the +10 is correct or not.
Ok, looking at example #2: Skeleton Warrior has AC 2. Your PC needs a 14 to hit after modifiers (16 - 2 = 14). Your rolls were: * 2 + 10 = 12: Miss
Again, appears to be working.
Example #3: Riggilo has Leather Armor +1 and 18 DEX, giving him an AC of 3. Your PC needs a 13 to hit after modifiers (16 - 3 = 13). * 4 + 8 = 12: Miss * 12 + 8 = 20: Hit
Again, appears to be working.
Note regarding the modifier difference from Example 2 to Example 3: You get a +2 modifier with a dagger vs Riggilo, since leather armor has a 2 point AC penalty vs piercing weapons, but not against the Skeleton Warrior because it's AC is natural. Also, against the Skeleton Warrior, it appears you were attacking from the shadows, so that gave a +4 to hit bonus for being invisible. So, the difference appears correct (take away the +4 invisible bonus but give the +2 armor modifier, and the difference should be -2, which it is, +10 vs +8).
Here's another example, Abdel vs. a Brown Bear.
Abdel has base THAC0 of 13. The Brown Bear has AC 6 (no modifiers vs attack type). So Abdel needs a 7 after modifiers to hit the Bear (i.e, 13 - 6 = 7).
Abdel also has 17 STR (+1 to hit), 4 pips in Long Sword (+3 to hit), and is using a normal Long Sword. Therefore, his total modifiers are +4, i.e., he needs to roll a 3 before modifiers (i.e., 3 + 4 = 7) to hit the bear.
I'll try my hand at an explanation: THAC0 stands for "To Hit Armor class 0." As in, if you had 20 THAC0, you'd need to roll at 20 to hit someone who has 0 AC. If they had, say, 4 AC, you would need to roll a 20 - 4 = 16 to hit. The formula is you need to roll a (your THAC0 - their AC) to hit them, so if your THAC0's 9, but their AC's negative 6, you would need a (9 - (-6)) = 9 + 6 = 15 to hit.
So your roll of 12 misses with 7 THAC0: this implies that your opponent's AC is at better than 7 - 12 = -5. You're just fighting against a guy with good AC (for BG1 standards), this does NOT imply that THAC0 is broken.
I think the fluctuating stuff's been explained, but look at, say, Full Plate Armor which has a base AC of 1, with bonus +4 AC vs slashing and +3 vs missile and piercing. If someone's attacking another guy wearing full plate with a longsword, the console would say "Attack roll: 16 - 4 = 12," whereas if the guy was wearing no armor whatsoever, it might read "Attack roll: 10 + 0 = 10." The pluses and minuses are literally only used for the modifications to AC, not the base AC itself.
You can ****ing ramble on and try to tell me i don't understand thac0 and all this ****, but the fact of the matter is EE does all kinds of weird **** to the thac0 calcs, and their ****ing wrong.
None of you can look at the particular instance i'm talking about, and give me a reason for those numbers.
It's like i'm asking a group of chimpanzees to explain a specific differential equation
"For example: a 3rd level fighter has a THAC0 of 18. He is attacking a hobgoblin with an AC of 5. The AC of the hobgoblin is subtracted from from the THAC0, giving a "to hit" number of 13. If the fighter rolls a 13 or higher on the twenty-sided die, he hits successfully and does damage."
Now i will replace the MANUALS EXAMPLE, EXACTLY, WITH MY EXAMPLE FROM THE SCREENSHOT:
"For example: a 10th level assassin has a THAC0 of 9. He is attacking a Riggollo with an AC of 5. The AC of the Riggollo is subtracted from from the THAC0, giving a "to hit" number of 4. If the assassin rolls a 4 or higher on the twenty-sided die, he hits successfully and does damage."
"For example: a 3rd level fighter has a THAC0 of 18. He is attacking a hobgoblin with an AC of 5. The AC of the hobgoblin is subtracted from from the THAC0, giving a "to hit" number of 13. If the fighter rolls a 13 or higher on the twenty-sided die, he hits successfully and does damage."
Now i will replace the MANUALS EXAMPLE, EXACTLY, WITH MY EXAMPLE FROM THE SCREENSHOT:
"For example: a 10th level assassin has a THAC0 of 9. He is attacking a Riggollo with an AC of 5. The AC of the Riggollo is subtracted from from the THAC0, giving a "to hit" number of 4. If the assassin rolls a 4 or higher on the twenty-sided die, he hits successfully and does damage."
I just checked EE keeper and Riggollo has an AC of 2, not 5, but since you are using a piercing weapon, and he is wearing leather armor, I believe you get a +1 to hit on him so against a piercing weapon his AC would be 3
so with that being said you would have to roll a 6 to hit him, hence the reason why 4 missed ( 9 thac0 - 3 AC = 6 )
You don't have a THAC0 of 9. You have a THAC0 of 15 ("Base: 16" - "To Hit: 1"). Everything else shown in the inventories THAC0 display is, functionally, a modifier to your roll, not to your THAC0. The inventory display may be misleading, but the end result(hit/miss) is correct.
Baldur's Gate has some quirks, and a few of them are present here.
The first is its use of Effective AC in character files to occasionally determine what an creatures base AC is (as opposed to their armor determining it).
So basically what is happening here is that Riggilo has a base of 6 AC according to his character file. When it comes to determining what base AC is used by a character the best is always used. So in this case instead of using the 7 AC his armor gives he uses the 6 his character file gives. Then of course he gets -4 from his dexterity so his AC is 2.
Another quirk is how Thac0 and attack rolls are treated differently by different items. In this case Legacy of the Masters gives a Base Thac0 bonus of -1. But (despite the Character Record/Inventory telling you otherwise) the other -6 worth of bonuses are actually just benefiting your attack roll.
In any case your Thac0 is 15. His AC is 2. So you need to roll at least a 13 to hit him.
You rolled a 4. 6 is then added to that roll because of your various equipment/strength/assassin bonuses. Another 2 is added because his armor is bad against piercing weapons (even though his armor isn't being used as a means of base AC you still get this bonus - I know it doesn't make sense but that's just how this has always been handled in the engine).
So you miss because you only have 12 against a 13.
"For example: a 3rd level fighter has a THAC0 of 18. He is attacking a hobgoblin with an AC of 5. The AC of the hobgoblin is subtracted from from the THAC0, giving a "to hit" number of 13. If the fighter rolls a 13 or higher on the twenty-sided die, he hits successfully and does damage."
I have a small amount of sympathy for you St. Andrew because I agree the manual is confusing on this point. However, if you had properly read the previous posts that I and others had made you would have realised some time ago how things worked rather than simply repeating your stated position and being pointlessly rude to people trying to help.
As I've said previously the rolls shown in the game do not show or take account of the AC of the target. This calculation is done behind the scenes in determining whether a roll is a miss or hit. Thus, while the manual description correctly describes the overall calculations, it does not describe the rolls actually shown in the game text. The manual could have been written something like: "For example: a 3rd level fighter has a base THAC0 of 18 and a magic sword giving him +1 to hit. He is attacking a hobgoblin with an AC of 5. The game rolls a twenty-sided die for his attack score and the base roll and the +1 adjustment are shown in the text box together with whether the result of the attack is a hit or miss. In order to hit the adjusted total roll must be equal to or greater than the base THAC0 minus the AC of the hobgoblin, i.e. 13. Thus if the game rolled a 12 for the attack the text shown would be: Fighter: Attack Roll 12 + 1 = 13 : Hit
Hit rolls are not broken - please don't keep saying this and potentially confusing people who might search for information about hit rolls and come across this thread.
Please read the answers you've had previously in this thread explaining how hit rolls work. All the examples you've given of changes to the attack modifier are due to changes in the game situation, e.g. type of weapon, type of armor, whether attacking from invisible, use of missile weapons etc. For instance the modifier of -8 above will be the result of a mugger not shifting from a missile weapon quickly enough before attacking one of your characters in melee range. The +4 to hit will be from muggers attacking from stealth.
Yea not seeing the issue. He rolled a 5, he got a -8 penalty added to that roll (as pointed out by Grond0 this is most likely from him using his light crossbow in close range)...thus -3.
I use the dialogue box's to hit rolls to estimate the enemy's AC. It's often hard to tell what an enemy's AC is, but I noticed this long before I bought the Enhanced Edition.
I agree that they're not as clear as they were in Icewind Dale 2, but this is how attack rolls appeared in the original BG2--the Enhanced Edition did not change them.
Comments
SetPrivateProfileString('Game Options','Extra Combat Info','1')
Here's an example of the sort of information you get:
That shows the base attack roll together with all the possible sources of modifiers to that. In this example the only modifier is a -1 as a result of the dog having a piercing attack and my character wearing studded leather armor. Similarly the information shows the base damage roll following a successful attack and the possible modifiers to that.
Please note though that this information still does not tell you what you need to hit - the AC of the enemy you're attacking is not included in the modifier scores. You thus can't tell directly just from a displayed roll whether it should be a hit or not.
I appreciate the effort to sound like Quayle, but I don't think it's the best way to get help with your problem. Sometimes Charisma higher than 9 is pretty handy.
In your first example, the Greater Doppelganger has AC 0. Your PC's base THAC0 is 16, so he needs a 16 to hit after modifiers. Your rolls were:
* 13 + 10 = 23: Hit
* 2 + 10 = 12: Miss
* 9 + 10 = 19: Hit
It appears to be working*.
* I don't have a full accounting of your equipment, race, class, ability scores, spell effects, etc.. Basically, you have not provided enough information to ascertain if the +10 is correct or not.
Ok, looking at example #2:
Skeleton Warrior has AC 2. Your PC needs a 14 to hit after modifiers (16 - 2 = 14). Your rolls were:
* 2 + 10 = 12: Miss
Again, appears to be working.
Example #3: Riggilo has Leather Armor +1 and 18 DEX, giving him an AC of 3. Your PC needs a 13 to hit after modifiers (16 - 3 = 13).
* 4 + 8 = 12: Miss
* 12 + 8 = 20: Hit
Again, appears to be working.
Note regarding the modifier difference from Example 2 to Example 3: You get a +2 modifier with a dagger vs Riggilo, since leather armor has a 2 point AC penalty vs piercing weapons, but not against the Skeleton Warrior because it's AC is natural. Also, against the Skeleton Warrior, it appears you were attacking from the shadows, so that gave a +4 to hit bonus for being invisible. So, the difference appears correct (take away the +4 invisible bonus but give the +2 armor modifier, and the difference should be -2, which it is, +10 vs +8).
Here's another example, Abdel vs. a Brown Bear.
Abdel has base THAC0 of 13. The Brown Bear has AC 6 (no modifiers vs attack type). So Abdel needs a 7 after modifiers to hit the Bear (i.e, 13 - 6 = 7).
Abdel also has 17 STR (+1 to hit), 4 pips in Long Sword (+3 to hit), and is using a normal Long Sword. Therefore, his total modifiers are +4, i.e., he needs to roll a 3 before modifiers (i.e., 3 + 4 = 7) to hit the bear.
From the combat log, Abdel rolls a 3... and hits!
THAC0 stands for "To Hit Armor class 0." As in, if you had 20 THAC0, you'd need to roll at 20 to hit someone who has 0 AC. If they had, say, 4 AC, you would need to roll a 20 - 4 = 16 to hit. The formula is you need to roll a (your THAC0 - their AC) to hit them, so if your THAC0's 9, but their AC's negative 6, you would need a (9 - (-6)) = 9 + 6 = 15 to hit.
So your roll of 12 misses with 7 THAC0: this implies that your opponent's AC is at better than 7 - 12 = -5. You're just fighting against a guy with good AC (for BG1 standards), this does NOT imply that THAC0 is broken.
I think the fluctuating stuff's been explained, but look at, say, Full Plate Armor which has a base AC of 1, with bonus +4 AC vs slashing and +3 vs missile and piercing. If someone's attacking another guy wearing full plate with a longsword, the console would say "Attack roll: 16 - 4 = 12," whereas if the guy was wearing no armor whatsoever, it might read "Attack roll: 10 + 0 = 10." The pluses and minuses are literally only used for the modifications to AC, not the base AC itself.
The issue here, is 2 particular instances where these things are not calculated properly.
Look at the instances, and explain these rolls! USING MATH.
THEY AREN'T CORRECT. I HAVE A THAC0 OF 9. I AM ROLLING TO HIT A THIEF IN LEATHER ARMOR, Riggollo.
His ac is not less than 5, I rolled a 4. 9-5=4. HIT. Their math shows 4 + 8 = 12: Miss.
What in the literal **** is this nonsense? ^^^
None of you can look at the particular instance i'm talking about, and give me a reason for those numbers.
It's like i'm asking a group of chimpanzees to explain a specific differential equation
"For example: a 3rd level fighter has a THAC0 of 18. He is attacking a hobgoblin with an AC of 5. The AC of the hobgoblin is subtracted from from the THAC0, giving a "to hit" number of 13. If the fighter rolls a 13 or higher on the twenty-sided die, he hits successfully and does damage."
Now i will replace the MANUALS EXAMPLE, EXACTLY, WITH MY EXAMPLE FROM THE SCREENSHOT:
"For example: a 10th level assassin has a THAC0 of 9. He is attacking a Riggollo with an AC of 5. The AC of the Riggollo is subtracted from from the THAC0, giving a "to hit" number of 4. If the assassin rolls a 4 or higher on the twenty-sided die, he hits successfully and does damage."
so with that being said you would have to roll a 6 to hit him, hence the reason why 4 missed ( 9 thac0 - 3 AC = 6 )
You have a THAC0 of 15 ("Base: 16" - "To Hit: 1").
Everything else shown in the inventories THAC0 display is, functionally, a modifier to your roll, not to your THAC0.
The inventory display may be misleading, but the end result(hit/miss) is correct.
How does (4 - 2 = 2) = (4 + 8 = 12)?
Thanks!
Your Attack Roll Modifiers: (+6) (+3 from Strength, +1 "Bonus", +2 other[can't see in screenshot])
Riggilo's Piercing AC: (+2 penalty)
Your THAC0: 15 (Base:16, -1 from Legacy of the Masters)
Riggilo's AC: 2 (Base: 6, -4 from Dexterity)
4 + (6 + 2) < 15 - 2
12 < 13
Baldur's Gate has some quirks, and a few of them are present here.
The first is its use of Effective AC in character files to occasionally determine what an creatures base AC is (as opposed to their armor determining it).
So basically what is happening here is that Riggilo has a base of 6 AC according to his character file. When it comes to determining what base AC is used by a character the best is always used. So in this case instead of using the 7 AC his armor gives he uses the 6 his character file gives. Then of course he gets -4 from his dexterity so his AC is 2.
Another quirk is how Thac0 and attack rolls are treated differently by different items. In this case Legacy of the Masters gives a Base Thac0 bonus of -1. But (despite the Character Record/Inventory telling you otherwise) the other -6 worth of bonuses are actually just benefiting your attack roll.
In any case your Thac0 is 15. His AC is 2. So you need to roll at least a 13 to hit him.
You rolled a 4. 6 is then added to that roll because of your various equipment/strength/assassin bonuses. Another 2 is added because his armor is bad against piercing weapons (even though his armor isn't being used as a means of base AC you still get this bonus - I know it doesn't make sense but that's just how this has always been handled in the engine).
So you miss because you only have 12 against a 13.
As I've said previously the rolls shown in the game do not show or take account of the AC of the target. This calculation is done behind the scenes in determining whether a roll is a miss or hit. Thus, while the manual description correctly describes the overall calculations, it does not describe the rolls actually shown in the game text. The manual could have been written something like:
"For example: a 3rd level fighter has a base THAC0 of 18 and a magic sword giving him +1 to hit. He is attacking a hobgoblin with an AC of 5. The game rolls a twenty-sided die for his attack score and the base roll and the +1 adjustment are shown in the text box together with whether the result of the attack is a hit or miss. In order to hit the adjusted total roll must be equal to or greater than the base THAC0 minus the AC of the hobgoblin, i.e. 13. Thus if the game rolled a 12 for the attack the text shown would be:
Fighter: Attack Roll 12 + 1 = 13 : Hit
5-8=-3
18+4=22 (what??)
3+4=7(double what??)
1+0=(Better than +4 but still what?)
Please read the answers you've had previously in this thread explaining how hit rolls work. All the examples you've given of changes to the attack modifier are due to changes in the game situation, e.g. type of weapon, type of armor, whether attacking from invisible, use of missile weapons etc. For instance the modifier of -8 above will be the result of a mugger not shifting from a missile weapon quickly enough before attacking one of your characters in melee range. The +4 to hit will be from muggers attacking from stealth.
I agree that they're not as clear as they were in Icewind Dale 2, but this is how attack rolls appeared in the original BG2--the Enhanced Edition did not change them.