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BUG#1 OF: Holy ****ing bugs, batman!! **kersmack**

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Comments

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,922
    If you want extra combat info add the following to the LUA file:
    SetPrivateProfileString('Game Options','Extra Combat Info','1')

    Here's an example of the sort of information you get:

    That shows the base attack roll together with all the possible sources of modifiers to that. In this example the only modifier is a -1 as a result of the dog having a piercing attack and my character wearing studded leather armor. Similarly the information shows the base damage roll following a successful attack and the possible modifiers to that.

    Please note though that this information still does not tell you what you need to hit - the AC of the enemy you're attacking is not included in the modifier scores. You thus can't tell directly just from a displayed roll whether it should be a hit or not.

    FlashburnSt. Andrew[Deleted User]lolien
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,636
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 785
    I'll try my hand at an explanation:
    THAC0 stands for "To Hit Armor class 0." As in, if you had 20 THAC0, you'd need to roll at 20 to hit someone who has 0 AC. If they had, say, 4 AC, you would need to roll a 20 - 4 = 16 to hit. The formula is you need to roll a (your THAC0 - their AC) to hit them, so if your THAC0's 9, but their AC's negative 6, you would need a (9 - (-6)) = 9 + 6 = 15 to hit.

    So your roll of 12 misses with 7 THAC0: this implies that your opponent's AC is at better than 7 - 12 = -5. You're just fighting against a guy with good AC (for BG1 standards), this does NOT imply that THAC0 is broken.

    I think the fluctuating stuff's been explained, but look at, say, Full Plate Armor which has a base AC of 1, with bonus +4 AC vs slashing and +3 vs missile and piercing. If someone's attacking another guy wearing full plate with a longsword, the console would say "Attack roll: 16 - 4 = 12," whereas if the guy was wearing no armor whatsoever, it might read "Attack roll: 10 + 0 = 10." The pluses and minuses are literally only used for the modifications to AC, not the base AC itself.

    Grond0JuliusBorisovAstroBryGuy
  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    PLEASE STOP EXPLAINING WHAT THAC0 IS.


    The issue here, is 2 particular instances where these things are not calculated properly.

    Look at the instances, and explain these rolls! USING MATH.

    THEY AREN'T CORRECT. I HAVE A THAC0 OF 9. I AM ROLLING TO HIT A THIEF IN LEATHER ARMOR, Riggollo.

    His ac is not less than 5, I rolled a 4. 9-5=4. HIT. Their math shows 4 + 8 = 12: Miss.

    What in the literal **** is this nonsense? ^^^

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    edited April 2017
    You can ****ing ramble on and try to tell me i don't understand thac0 and all this ****, but the fact of the matter is EE does all kinds of weird **** to the thac0 calcs, and their ****ing wrong.

    None of you can look at the particular instance i'm talking about, and give me a reason for those numbers.


    It's like i'm asking a group of chimpanzees to explain a specific differential equation

    Post edited by Tresset on
  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    edited April 2017
    I will cite the manual VERBATIM:

    "For example: a 3rd level fighter has a THAC0 of 18. He is attacking a hobgoblin with an AC of 5. The AC of the hobgoblin is subtracted from from the THAC0, giving a "to hit" number of 13. If the fighter rolls a 13 or higher on the twenty-sided die, he hits successfully and does damage."

    Now i will replace the MANUALS EXAMPLE, EXACTLY, WITH MY EXAMPLE FROM THE SCREENSHOT:

    "For example: a 10th level assassin has a THAC0 of 9. He is attacking a Riggollo with an AC of 5. The AC of the Riggollo is subtracted from from the THAC0, giving a "to hit" number of 4. If the assassin rolls a 4 or higher on the twenty-sided die, he hits successfully and does damage."

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,570
    edited April 2017

    I will cite the manual VERBATIM:

    "For example: a 3rd level fighter has a THAC0 of 18. He is attacking a hobgoblin with an AC of 5. The AC of the hobgoblin is subtracted from from the THAC0, giving a "to hit" number of 13. If the fighter rolls a 13 or higher on the twenty-sided die, he hits successfully and does damage."

    Now i will replace the MANUALS EXAMPLE, EXACTLY, WITH MY EXAMPLE FROM THE SCREENSHOT:

    "For example: a 10th level assassin has a THAC0 of 9. He is attacking a Riggollo with an AC of 5. The AC of the Riggollo is subtracted from from the THAC0, giving a "to hit" number of 4. If the assassin rolls a 4 or higher on the twenty-sided die, he hits successfully and does damage."

    I just checked EE keeper and Riggollo has an AC of 2, not 5, but since you are using a piercing weapon, and he is wearing leather armor, I believe you get a +1 to hit on him so against a piercing weapon his AC would be 3

    so with that being said you would have to roll a 6 to hit him, hence the reason why 4 missed ( 9 thac0 - 3 AC = 6 )

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    What the hell is 4 + 8 = 12?

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    What in the literal **** does 4 + 8 = 12 have to do with ANYTHING going on in this hit rolls besides the 4 being my roll

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    ENHANCED EDITION, WHERE (4 -2 =2) = (4 + 8 = 12)

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,245
    You don't have a THAC0 of 9.
    You have a THAC0 of 15 ("Base: 16" - "To Hit: 1").
    Everything else shown in the inventories THAC0 display is, functionally, a modifier to your roll, not to your THAC0.
    The inventory display may be misleading, but the end result(hit/miss) is correct.

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    Hi Kjeron,

    How does (4 - 2 = 2) = (4 + 8 = 12)?

    Thanks!

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    Are we just arbitrarily adding 10 to the modifier and the end result for funzies?

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,245
    Your Roll: 4
    Your Attack Roll Modifiers: (+6) (+3 from Strength, +1 "Bonus", +2 other[can't see in screenshot])
    Riggilo's Piercing AC: (+2 penalty)

    Your THAC0: 15 (Base:16, -1 from Legacy of the Masters)
    Riggilo's AC: 2 (Base: 6, -4 from Dexterity)

    4 + (6 + 2) < 15 - 2
    12 < 13

    elminster[Deleted User]lolien
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,415

    YOU ARE ALL WRONG

    Nope. You are. You're also being a rude jerk to those who are trying to help you. So I'm done.

    KuronaArtona
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,215
    edited April 2017
    kjeron is correct here.

    Baldur's Gate has some quirks, and a few of them are present here.

    The first is its use of Effective AC in character files to occasionally determine what an creatures base AC is (as opposed to their armor determining it).

    So basically what is happening here is that Riggilo has a base of 6 AC according to his character file. When it comes to determining what base AC is used by a character the best is always used. So in this case instead of using the 7 AC his armor gives he uses the 6 his character file gives. Then of course he gets -4 from his dexterity so his AC is 2.

    Another quirk is how Thac0 and attack rolls are treated differently by different items. In this case Legacy of the Masters gives a Base Thac0 bonus of -1. But (despite the Character Record/Inventory telling you otherwise) the other -6 worth of bonuses are actually just benefiting your attack roll.

    In any case your Thac0 is 15. His AC is 2. So you need to roll at least a 13 to hit him.

    You rolled a 4. 6 is then added to that roll because of your various equipment/strength/assassin bonuses. Another 2 is added because his armor is bad against piercing weapons (even though his armor isn't being used as a means of base AC you still get this bonus - I know it doesn't make sense but that's just how this has always been handled in the engine).

    So you miss because you only have 12 against a 13.

    Post edited by elminster on
    JuliusBorisovlolien
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,922

    I will cite the manual VERBATIM:

    "For example: a 3rd level fighter has a THAC0 of 18. He is attacking a hobgoblin with an AC of 5. The AC of the hobgoblin is subtracted from from the THAC0, giving a "to hit" number of 13. If the fighter rolls a 13 or higher on the twenty-sided die, he hits successfully and does damage."

    I have a small amount of sympathy for you St. Andrew because I agree the manual is confusing on this point. However, if you had properly read the previous posts that I and others had made you would have realised some time ago how things worked rather than simply repeating your stated position and being pointlessly rude to people trying to help.

    As I've said previously the rolls shown in the game do not show or take account of the AC of the target. This calculation is done behind the scenes in determining whether a roll is a miss or hit. Thus, while the manual description correctly describes the overall calculations, it does not describe the rolls actually shown in the game text. The manual could have been written something like:
    "For example: a 3rd level fighter has a base THAC0 of 18 and a magic sword giving him +1 to hit. He is attacking a hobgoblin with an AC of 5. The game rolls a twenty-sided die for his attack score and the base roll and the +1 adjustment are shown in the text box together with whether the result of the attack is a hit or miss. In order to hit the adjusted total roll must be equal to or greater than the base THAC0 minus the AC of the hobgoblin, i.e. 13. Thus if the game rolled a 12 for the attack the text shown would be:
    Fighter: Attack Roll 12 + 1 = 13 : Hit

    [Deleted User]BlackravenJuliusBorisovlolien
  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    edited April 2017
    MORE BROKEN TO HIT ROLLS






  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    edited April 2017
    NEVERMIND SORRY MISREAD THAT, ONLY A CHANGE IN 2 WHEN ACTUAL AC CHANGE IS 8

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    MUGGER ATTACK ROLL
    5-8=-3
    18+4=22 (what??)
    3+4=7(double what??)
    1+0=(Better than +4 but still what?)


  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,215
    edited April 2017
    Yea not seeing the issue. He rolled a 5, he got a -8 penalty added to that roll (as pointed out by Grond0 this is most likely from him using his light crossbow in close range)...thus -3.

    Post edited by elminster on
    JuliusBorisovlolien
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,808
    edited April 2017
    I use the dialogue box's to hit rolls to estimate the enemy's AC. It's often hard to tell what an enemy's AC is, but I noticed this long before I bought the Enhanced Edition.

    I agree that they're not as clear as they were in Icewind Dale 2, but this is how attack rolls appeared in the original BG2--the Enhanced Edition did not change them.

    elminsterJuliusBorisovlolien
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