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BUG#1 OF: Holy ****ing bugs, batman!! **kersmack**

St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
edited April 2017 in Troubleshooting
TO HIT ROLLS BROKEN:


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Continued


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Continued



Post edited by Tresset on
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Comments

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    x (roll) + y (modifier, which ac should affect) = hit if > thac0. I understand that fully. What's weird is my y value, the modifier, is changing. No weapons changes, no armor changes, same target. Also, my totals are calculated wrong sometimes. Rolled a 12, with my thac0 of 9 with bows, and got a miss.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,918

    x (roll) + y (modifier, which ac should affect) = hit if > thac0. I understand that fully. What's weird is my y value, the modifier, is changing. No weapons changes, no armor changes, same target. Also, my totals are calculated wrong sometimes. Rolled a 12, with my thac0 of 9 with bows, and got a miss.

    That's not quite it. THAC0 stands for 'to hit armor class 0', i.e. that's the roll you would need to hit something with AC0. However, some enemies will have negative AC (just as you can) and hence you will need more than the THAC0 roll to hit them. If you were using a bow in melee range that would give you a different modifier to hit, which might explain part of the changes you're seeing.

    ThacoBell
  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    Grond0, you haven't said or corrected anything in any way that is helpful to resolve this issue. You have restated exactly what I understand already.

    I am telling you flat out, that I can remove armor, and it doesn't change the rolls except for by 2. I have shadow thieves armor on, and it changed the modifier by 2 when I am naked, as opposed to with it equipped. I'll start by posting screenshots.

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    Explain that? Here, i'll continue.

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    To hit rolls are literally broken. Ok? I fucking fought a battle horror, ran, hid, took off my armor, and looked at the same rolls, and it only added +2 to his chance to hit.

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    I'll be happy to go through my modifiers if someone feels like the glaring 4 number error in my thac0 chance, or the 2 number error in their chance to hit is somehow due to my inability to understand arithmetic

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,242

    I'll be happy to go through my modifiers if someone feels like the glaring 4 number error in my thac0 chance, or the 2 number error in their chance to hit is somehow due to my inability to understand arithmetic

    What your seeing and how its calculated, though written from the perspective of the attacker, the 2 point difference you see adjusted to the attack roll is because Studded Leather gives a 2 point bonus to Slashing AC. While the Base AC(4) affects the minimum number needed on the right side.

    [Deleted User]ThacoBell
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,918

    Grond0, you haven't said or corrected anything in any way that is helpful to resolve this issue. You have restated exactly what I understand already.

    I am telling you flat out, that I can remove armor, and it doesn't change the rolls except for by 2. I have shadow thieves armor on, and it changed the modifier by 2 when I am naked, as opposed to with it equipped. I'll start by posting screenshots.

    I was trying in my earlier post to explain (obviously not very well :)) that the chance to hit something is not the same as THAC0. Your THAC0 affects your chance to hit and modifiers to it also affect that chance, but you can't actually see from the attack rolls what that chance is (except indirectly if you miss with a roll one lower than a roll that hits). The information you need that isn't in the attack rolls is the AC of the enemy.

    In the case of the battle horror you referred to above for instance, when you took off your armor its modifier to hit changed by 2 because you were no longer wearing armor with a -2 adjustment to AC against a slashing weapon. It's base THAC0 obviously didn't change, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't hit you more easily - it would because your AC is worse.

    I appreciate the way to hit chances work is confusing - if you want to send me a PM I would be happy to explain in more detail.

    ThacoBell
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,618
    edited April 2017
    Also, the Site rules don't encourage using the F word on this forum, St. Andrew.

    Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
    [Deleted User]
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2017

    Also, the Site rules doesn't encourage using the F word on this forum, St. Andrew.

    Well, he/she didn't actually use it...
    Not that it matters, because if people recognize what he/she means, censoring it is pointless. And I doubt there's a single person here who won't recognize it.


    Anyway, I think what he/she's saying is that after modifying his THAC0, his hit rolls remain the same, that is, 1d20+10. Although I think he/she's not taking into account that your target's AC modifies that number as well.

    First he's attacking a doppelganger with a THAC0 value of 7, and then a Skeleton with a THAC0 value of 9. It probably means the higher THAC0 he has with the bow is balanced by the lower AC of the greater doppelganger, but hey, I'm no expert on game mechanics.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

    [Deleted User]ThacoBellsmeagolheartArtona
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2017

    I would be just spectacular if someone so torn up about a supposed bug could actually take the time to describe it in a sentence or two.


    Hear, hear!

    So, speak up, OP. Try to remain calm while doing so, too.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,569
    I don't think the OP understands how that "to hit bonus" works

    how the IE works is that it takes your "base thac0" and subtracts it from your "actual thac0" ( to this day I still don't know why it does that, because it has caused so much confusion over the years, perhaps the reason why it was added when SoA came out because it looks cool!)

    that's why it makes it look like you have a big "to hit" bonus, but in reality you don't

    in the original BG1 if you had a bonus on your attack roll it was because you had an actual bonus, but because of the bg2 version of the engine it does it the way I explained earlier, making things a little bit more confusing

    AndreaColombo
  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    No I censored it myself, not that it matters.

    Uh so besides the whole, I remove my armor, and it only affects the Y value of those trying to hit me by 2...

    My thac0 is a 7. My final to hit value after my roll, + the modifier, is a 12. Modifier consisting of their ac, + any bonuses/detrimental affects... like if I was wielding a bow in melee range.

    it calculates this as a miss. I don't find this confusing... I think the 12 responses I got definitely are though.

    This is arithmetic.

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    edited April 2017
    Just to spell this out, very simply... If my roll, + the modifier (ac, bonuses, etc.) = 12.. and my thac0 is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, or 12, welp, that's a hit.

    Post edited by St. Andrew on
  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    I feel like i'm talking to Minsc.

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    The misses that =12 should be hits. ....

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    edited April 2017
    Like what i'm trying to understand here though, given the client's super weird, ass backwards, nonsensical, loopedy loop math, is that if it is arbitrarily setting my thac0 to 13, is it then adding my thac0 reductions to the modifier?

    Post edited by St. Andrew on
  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    edited April 2017
    .

    Post edited by St. Andrew on
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,918

    Just to spell this out, very simply... If my roll, + the modifier (ac, bonuses, etc.) = 12.. and my thac0 is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, or 12, welp, that's a hit.

    That's not how it works - despite the fact you've said vehemently a number of times you understand THAC0, I'm afraid you don't. Please read my response to the other thread you posted this issue in before starting this one, where I briefly explained the way to hit chances work and offered further help if you wanted it.

    I would also say as a general statement that if you're asking for help on these Forums people are more likely to want to give it if you make it easy for them - for instance by being clear about the problem you have and polite in the way you describe it.

    ArtonaAstroBryGuysemiticgoddess
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 4,133
    edited April 2017
    Zaghoul said:

    Can a moderator move the THAC0 discussions (if it can be done) to the new THAC0 discussion started by St. Andrew (no offense meant). https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/64206/bug-1-of-holy-ing-bugs-batman-kersmack#latest

    Just will be easier to keep it on the matter at hand for both our separate issues. The instant death thing bugs really bugger up a no-reloader like myself.(can't help it after so long)

    This got missed in the mess I think, esp with the screenshots.
    This time I'll shall try casting the spell differently by summoning the powers that be AND at the risk of spell failure I shall make the attempt with TWO. I shall even thrown in my main spell component, dried puffball mushrooms. :) (with that special ingredient (for gray druids n such) I might even attract the attn. of another one or two as well)
    @mlnevese
    @semiticgod

    Post edited by Zaghoul on
  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    edited April 2017
    Spare me the paragraph, and show me the math. We have 2 perfectly good examples in the screenshots above.

    Post edited by St. Andrew on
  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    edited April 2017
    Show me how the result 4 + 8 = 12 : Miss on Riggolo is accurate, anyone.

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    If that resulting value (=12) is checked against the targets AC, it would be a hit. If that resultant value is just supposed to be greater than 0, it is a hit. If it is with respect to thac0, it is a hit.

  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 86
    edited April 2017
    @kjeron thanks but I am fully aware of all that, and cannot find "Extra Combat Info" anywhere in the options or baldur.lua

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,918
    edited April 2017
    From the above I presume you've not read the earlier post I referred to then. Here's a short-cut, but don't bother sending me a private message.
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/866020/#Comment_866020

    Edit: threads now merged, so comment referred to is in the thread above.

    Post edited by Grond0 on
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