In no concievable universe could Edwin be called a "Mary Sue". If anything the character mechanically should be better.
It makes sense in the context of the game that a RWofT should be far better at slinging spellls than anybody else you meet. Thay is a society based on magic, it maintains order based on magic, it exerts influence based on magic. Trained Thay mages are going to knock seven bells out of anybody who hasn't had that level of training. Because if a society is based on having efficient magic users and if they weren't turning out good magic users, the society would fail. Nobody would have heard of the place. The "amulet" IMO is unecessary, the advantages should be inherent from being a RWofT.
And that's backed up in game when Degarden turns up and simply dispells a Nether Scroll "curse" in comparison to Thallyntyre (sp) who can't easily and sometimes fails completely.
You're the son of a God and it's impossible for you to be as good of a mage as Edwin, who may be a Red Wizard, but as far as I can tell is just some random Red Wizard. It's not like he was the Chosen Wizard of Thay, He Who Was Prophesied, The Last Best Hope of Wizardkind, or the reincarnated spirit of some ancient archmage.
Again, as near as I can tell, from Thay's standpoint he's just some kid wizard from down the street who took off and left. If Thay was the Shire, Edwin would be Frodo. Except instead of relying on his companions to help him carry his burden, he became literally more powerful than a god.
If Edwin is a typical Thayvian Wizard, it boggles my mind how they haven't conquered the entire universe yet. He gets three extra spells per level at every single level and basically only gives up Identify and True Sight. Mechanically speaking, it's absurd.
Say you replaced magic with science, would being the son of a God make you a better scientist than anybody else? It's not the usual Godlike attribute that you think of, usually SofaG tends to boost the physical aspects, stronger, faster, fitter, ect. If instead you looked at it, yes they can be a very good scientist, one of the best. But the Godlike bits means they can also run the 100 m faster than anybody else, carry more than anybody else ect. and do all that as well as the science. Would't you say that was more Godlike?
Well @SomeSort Edwin merely has an Amulet that lets him cast more spells, there's plenty of other magic items in the game that are extremely powerful, although i am sure all of us would love to get an Amulet like his. End of the day it's just a magic item, no more, no less. Based on his name there is speculation that his Dad was extremely high up in the RWoT, if so that could explain his attitude and Amulet, family Heirloom and all that. Mind you as family Heirlooms go i think i'll take God of Murder over an Amulet
Say you replaced magic with science, would being the son of a God make you a better scientist than anybody else? It's not the usual Godlike attribute that you think of, usually SofaG tends to boost the physical aspects, stronger, faster, fitter, ect. If instead you looked at it, yes they can be a very good scientist, one of the best. But the Godlike bits means they can also run the 100 m faster than anybody else, carry more than anybody else ect. and do all that as well as the science. Would't you say that was more Godlike?
No. I'd think divine blood makes you better at whatever your calling is. If you're a fighter, you're an exceptional fighter. If you're a thief, you're a fantastic thief. And if you're a mage, you're a phenomenal mage. You can roll a Charname with sub-10 scores in his physical stats (Str/Dex/Con) and that's totally fine and reconcilable with your backstory, IMO.
(Beyond that, gods are hardly monoliths, so I wouldn't expect their children to be, either. I'd imagine Oghma runs a pretty slow 100m, all things considered.)
Well @SomeSort Edwin merely has an Amulet that lets him cast more spells, there's plenty of other magic items in the game that are extremely powerful, although i am sure all of us would love to get an Amulet like his. End of the day it's just a magic item, no more, no less. Based on his name there is speculation that his Dad was extremely high up in the RWoT, if so that could explain his attitude and Amulet, family Heirloom and all that. Mind you as family Heirlooms go i think i'll take God of Murder over an Amulet
Well, we know that the extra spells come from his amulet. But the in-game explanation is that his extra spells are an innate ability and the amulet is just a family heirloom, not the most powerful relic in all of Faerun.
Sort of like Imoen in the starter dungeon is wearing a belt that makes her unkillable, and we know that this unkillability is a property of the belt because we've read the belt's properties on NI, but from an in-game perspective it's not the belt. When you meet her you're not all "Hey Imoen, whatever happened to that belt that made you immortal, that sure would come in handy right now."
If Edwin is a typical Thayvian Wizard, it boggles my mind how they haven't conquered the entire universe yet. He gets three extra spells per level at every single level and basically only gives up Identify and True Sight. Mechanically speaking, it's absurd.
Already covered in another thread how Edwin does not meets the requirements for Red Wizard of Thay (Can't remember if it was 14 Wis or Cha he needed. I think it was Cha), and his amulet of +2 spells/level should be +1 spell/level. If one was interested in having him follow PnP rules.
I still think that the devs should have made an extra storyline for good aligned parties where they could choose to save Clara from Hexxat and have her as a companion. Don't get me wrong. I think Hexxat is a decent NPC but she just never fit into my good/neutral aligned party. An option to keep Clara could have been nice. But I guess that is a long gone hope now lol.
I still think that the devs should have made an extra storyline for good aligned parties where they could choose to save Clara from Hexxat and have her as a companion. Don't get me wrong. I think Hexxat is a decent NPC but she just never fit into my good/neutral aligned party. An option to keep Clara could have been nice. But I guess that is a long gone hope now lol.
Agree with above. I's kind of a "What were they thinking?" I still remember how shocked I was when *that* happened the first time (actually, still the *only* time). Maybe that's what they were going for, but, speaking strictly for myself, I have no idea why they think a good or neutral CHARNAME would include her in his/her party after that.
I still think that the devs should have made an extra storyline for good aligned parties where they could choose to save Clara from Hexxat and have her as a companion. Don't get me wrong. I think Hexxat is a decent NPC but she just never fit into my good/neutral aligned party. An option to keep Clara could have been nice. But I guess that is a long gone hope now lol.
Agree with above. I's kind of a "What were they thinking?" I still remember how shocked I was when *that* happened the first time (actually, still the *only* time). Maybe that's what they were going for, but, speaking strictly for myself, I have no idea why they think a good or neutral CHARNAME would include her in his/her party after that.
FWIW I don't think they ever intended Hexxat to fit into a Good/Neutral party. Like Dorn, she is unabashedly and over the top evil. They fit in with evil parties only, and really, I think thats how it should be.
I still think that the devs should have made an extra storyline for good aligned parties where they could choose to save Clara from Hexxat and have her as a companion. Don't get me wrong. I think Hexxat is a decent NPC but she just never fit into my good/neutral aligned party. An option to keep Clara could have been nice. But I guess that is a long gone hope now lol.
Agree with above. I's kind of a "What were they thinking?" I still remember how shocked I was when *that* happened the first time (actually, still the *only* time). Maybe that's what they were going for, but, speaking strictly for myself, I have no idea why they think a good or neutral CHARNAME would include her in his/her party after that.
FWIW I don't think they ever intended Hexxat to fit into a Good/Neutral party. Like Dorn, she is unabashedly and over the top evil. They fit in with evil parties only, and really, I think thats how it should be.
yeah dorn and hexxat are not edwin, vicky or korgan who can easily fit in a good neutral party with out issue. thats where most of this lies people think they should be in any party then complain that it won't work.
yeah dorn and hexxat are not edwin, vicky or korgan who can easily fit in a good neutral party with out issue. thats where most of this lies people think they should be in any party then complain that it won't work.
Truth. Some NPCs just aren't meant to play along. The same can be said the other way. You can't make an evil or even neutral party and stick Keldorn into it and expect everything to be hunky dory. The moment you are like, "I'ma break the rules to get this done." Keldorn is outta there.
yeah dorn and hexxat are not edwin, vicky or korgan who can easily fit in a good neutral party with out issue. thats where most of this lies people think they should be in any party then complain that it won't work.
From this thread, I get the impression that the problem is exactly the opposite. People are more complaining that Hexxat should work with *fewer* NPCs, not more. There's no way, for instance, that Nalia would be all "What are we doing in this dungeon right now, we should be out helping the less fortunate! Or, you know, in Hexxat's case feeding on them I guess, but it's cool, different strokes for different folks."
From this thread, I get the impression that the problem is exactly the opposite. People are more complaining that Hexxat should work with *fewer* NPCs, not more. There's no way, for instance, that Nalia would be all "What are we doing in this dungeon right now, we should be out helping the less fortunate! Or, you know, in Hexxat's case feeding on them I guess, but it's cool, different strokes for different folks."
Totally agree. BTW it is always a laugh for me when she says that trudging around inside her family's Keep.
yeah dorn and hexxat are not edwin, vicky or korgan who can easily fit in a good neutral party with out issue. thats where most of this lies people think they should be in any party then complain that it won't work.
From this thread, I get the impression that the problem is exactly the opposite. People are more complaining that Hexxat should work with *fewer* NPCs, not more. There's no way, for instance, that Nalia would be all "What are we doing in this dungeon right now, we should be out helping the less fortunate! Or, you know, in Hexxat's case feeding on them I guess, but it's cool, different strokes for different folks."
there are really two camps/complaints throughout the thread. One is like you said. Not enough react negatively to her obviously evil and uncaring behavior.
The other is that she doesn't fit in with their good and neutral aligned charname and groups based around that.
The two overlap somewhat but it boils down to a bit of both. I usually argue that people are a little too trusting of the evil characters from the original game that do mix in a little better because their motives are equally unhealthy... and more subtle.
Storywise I'm the type that all different types are useful. even if they don't always mesh well. powergaming wise. I have uses for a pure thief... Most of the thieves in the game are kind of hampered even though I'll get all kinds of arguments about dual and multiclassing being superior. I find there are certain things that in some ways make a single class thief very useful and occasionally better. But my style also tends to vary a bit from other peoples.
Well @SomeSort Edwin merely has an Amulet that lets him cast more spells, there's plenty of other magic items in the game that are extremely powerful, although i am sure all of us would love to get an Amulet like his. End of the day it's just a magic item, no more, no less. Based on his name there is speculation that his Dad was extremely high up in the RWoT, if so that could explain his attitude and Amulet, family Heirloom and all that. Mind you as family Heirlooms go i think i'll take God of Murder over an Amulet
Well, we know that the extra spells come from his amulet. But the in-game explanation is that his extra spells are an innate ability and the amulet is just a family heirloom, not the most powerful relic in all of Faerun.
Sort of like Imoen in the starter dungeon is wearing a belt that makes her unkillable, and we know that this unkillability is a property of the belt because we've read the belt's properties on NI, but from an in-game perspective it's not the belt. When you meet her you're not all "Hey Imoen, whatever happened to that belt that made you immortal, that sure would come in handy right now."
It's really just speculation, none of us know what the devs planned, i could easily say that knowing Edwin he would explain it as innate greatness whilst slapping your hands away every time you got near to his Amulet. Question is do you believe the Evil Mage Megalomaniacs explanation or not?
I also wouldn't say it's the most powerful relic in the realms, it's great for a mage, but once you get past a certain point then spells per level become less impressive and casting speed becomes MUCH more important. As long as you have enough spell slots for the key spells then all that really matters is using them wisely because you can either make them last regardless of Edwin's additional quota, or rest/wish rest.
Most of my runs are solo with a mage class usually dual or multi, the only items i tend to use with extra spell slots are ToB ones, perhaps the Bards gloves if/when UAI is unlocked and sometimes Circlet of Netheril. If i had the choice of using Edwins Amulet i would decline because +1 spell speed and immunity to level drain plus a bit of magic resistance is almost always more useful. I mean yes you can get neg plane protection from various weapons, but they are not always able to be equipped and are always on upgraded weapons which come later, past the point where spell speed >>>>> spell slots.
I mean yes you can get neg plane protection from various weapons, but they are not always able to be equipped and are always on upgraded weapons which come later, past the point where spell speed >>>>> spell slots.
Which ones? The only one I can think of is the Runehammer, but would gladly learn more
Well @SomeSort Edwin merely has an Amulet that lets him cast more spells, there's plenty of other magic items in the game that are extremely powerful, although i am sure all of us would love to get an Amulet like his. End of the day it's just a magic item, no more, no less. Based on his name there is speculation that his Dad was extremely high up in the RWoT, if so that could explain his attitude and Amulet, family Heirloom and all that. Mind you as family Heirlooms go i think i'll take God of Murder over an Amulet
Well, we know that the extra spells come from his amulet. But the in-game explanation is that his extra spells are an innate ability and the amulet is just a family heirloom, not the most powerful relic in all of Faerun.
Sort of like Imoen in the starter dungeon is wearing a belt that makes her unkillable, and we know that this unkillability is a property of the belt because we've read the belt's properties on NI, but from an in-game perspective it's not the belt. When you meet her you're not all "Hey Imoen, whatever happened to that belt that made you immortal, that sure would come in handy right now."
It's really just speculation, none of us know what the devs planned, i could easily say that knowing Edwin he would explain it as innate greatness whilst slapping your hands away every time you got near to his Amulet. Question is do you believe the Evil Mage Megalomaniacs explanation or not?
Nah mate, the amulet recreates the benefits of the Red Wizard class kit. It's pretty damn probable that, in a game which didn't feature kits, that his amulet's powers are supposed to be interpreted as being from his special training as opposed to literally bestowed to him from a magic item. The devs did this for the ease of coding it that way, just like Imoen's belt. That is all there is to it.
I mean yes you can get neg plane protection from various weapons, but they are not always able to be equipped and are always on upgraded weapons which come later, past the point where spell speed >>>>> spell slots.
Which ones? The only one I can think of is the Runehammer, but would gladly learn more
Upgraded Spectral Brand is the only other one to have "Negative Plane Protection".
Although there's more that have immunity to level drain which is literally all that there is to NPP. Upgraded Mace of Disruption Upgraded Angurvadal
(Upgraded) Hindo's Doom has Lesser/Greater Restoration charges. Upgraded one has immunity to death effects, but not level drain. (So basically built in 'Death Ward').
This search done by string text searching and checking relevant items, so I might be missing some with such a limited search.
I'm not necessarily going to disagree with those who say almost no one would work with Hexxat, because it's a good point. But personally if I really were the Bhaalspawn and thrown into this situation, the only people I WOULD trust is Imoen, Jaheira, Minsc, Aerie, Nalia, and Mazzy. Maybe Jan.
Now this is ME I'm talking about, and how I feel I'd judge them based on first impressions.
The first list should be obvious. All are good (Jaheira is not neutral) and most of them are old companions who've proven their trust.
Jan is just the sort of person I'd trust. Can't explain it better than that. I like the cut of his jib.
Keldorn and Anomen are obviously good, but I would be wary of them. While I know that I have the best intentions, there's the fact I'm the son of a dead evil god and the whole...misunderstanding in Baldur's Gate after the Siege of Dragonspear. Something would worry me they'd decide I was "too dangerous to be left alive." I know they don't, but if this were "real" I wouldn't have that kind of pre cognizance.
Valygar I would trust if I weren't a mage and I always am, so no.
Cernd is too druid for me. I'm always wary of potential Poison Ivy types.
Haer'dalis is a jerk. From the very start, I'd hate him.
Yoshimo comes across as too convenient from the very start. My very first playthrough, I knew he was trouble.
Everyone else is evil and gives plenty of reason not to trust them.
Now I say all of that to say this - I've had most of thee above in my party before, and i've done whole playthroughs with them. It didn't always make sense - because the real me wouldn't trust most of those people, but I wanted to have the fun of playing them and seeing their stories unfold. So while I freely admit no sane person would ever allow Hexxat, a vampire, into the confidence of the party - I lay that aside to see her story and her tale, which I frankly found compelling.
I also wouldn't say it's the most powerful relic in the realms, it's great for a mage, but once you get past a certain point then spells per level become less impressive and casting speed becomes MUCH more important. As long as you have enough spell slots for the key spells then all that really matters is using them wisely because you can either make them last regardless of Edwin's additional quota, or rest/wish rest.
It's kind of quibbling whether it's literally the most powerful relic in the entire universe or only in the top 5. And sure, by the time you're level 27 the difference between 5 level 9 spells and 7 level 9 spells isn't that big anymore. (Though I'd note that Wish-Resting is never guaranteed, so if you're going to rely on it, having seven level 9 spells *IS* a substantial advantage. The difference between four Wishes plus one Time Stop and four wishes plus three Time Stops is substantial.)
But I'd say Edwin's Amulet is unambiguously better than Robe of Vecna up through level 17 (since you need Improved Alacrity to take full advantage of the robe), and I'd say it's still better at 18 and 19 (because there's a huge difference between four level 9 spells and two level 9 spells). Around level 20 and 22 it'd be a heavy debate for me, and by level 27 I'd definitely prefer Robe of Vecna. But that's almost 6.4m experience in, which is basically the end of ToB with a party of six.
There's never any point where I'd take Amulet of Power over Edwin's Amulet, though. A 1-point casting speed increase isn't doing a whole lot for me compared to two extra casts of my highest-level spells. Negative Plane Protection is kind of unnecessary on a mage thanks to Protection from Magic Weapons and Animate Dead and Mordenk's Sword. (Or, for that matter, just plain-old invisibility.)
Like I said, it's all kind of splitting hairs. If we accept that the extra spells are intended to be considered a feature of his amulet (and not a feature of Edwin himself), then we must accept that there's a level 2 mage just wandering around with literally one of the most powerful artifacts ever created and he's hanging out in some flyspeck mining town because he needs some help to deal with a handful of gnolls.
I'm not necessarily going to disagree with those who say almost no one would work with Hexxat, because it's a good point. But personally if I really were the Bhaalspawn and thrown into this situation, the only people I WOULD trust is Imoen, Jaheira, Minsc, Aerie, Nalia, and Mazzy. Maybe Jan.
Now this is ME I'm talking about, and how I feel I'd judge them based on first impressions.
The first list should be obvious. All are good (Jaheira is not neutral) and most of them are old companions who've proven their trust.
Jan is just the sort of person I'd trust. Can't explain it better than that. I like the cut of his jib.
Keldorn and Anomen are obviously good, but I would be wary of them. While I know that I have the best intentions, there's the fact I'm the son of a dead evil god and the whole...misunderstanding in Baldur's Gate after the Siege of Dragonspear. Something would worry me they'd decide I was "too dangerous to be left alive." I know they don't, but if this were "real" I wouldn't have that kind of pre cognizance.
Valygar I would trust if I weren't a mage and I always am, so no.
Cernd is too druid for me. I'm always wary of potential Poison Ivy types.
Haer'dalis is a jerk. From the very start, I'd hate him.
Yoshimo comes across as too convenient from the very start. My very first playthrough, I knew he was trouble.
Everyone else is evil and gives plenty of reason not to trust them.
Now I say all of that to say this - I've had most of thee above in my party before, and i've done whole playthroughs with them. It didn't always make sense - because the real me wouldn't trust most of those people, but I wanted to have the fun of playing them and seeing their stories unfold. So while I freely admit no sane person would ever allow Hexxat, a vampire, into the confidence of the party - I lay that aside to see her story and her tale, which I frankly found compelling.
I can agree with this reasoning for a good or possibly neutral Charname. For an evil charname I think it's less about "trusting" your companions and more about "using" your companions. I wouldn't trust anyone, but I'd be happy to let them tag along as long as they helped me further my own ends. I'd just keep an extra wary eye on them.
I'd also add Viconia to the list of NPCs I trusted, ironically enough. Not in BG1 because all you really know about her is that she's (a) a drow and (b) on the run from the law. But in BG2 you can see pretty quickly that she literally has nowhere else to go. She can't betray you because she has no one to betray you to. Unlike some of the companions, (Yoshimo), there's really nothing "convenient" about her meeting to put my guard up, either.
I don't trust her as a person to look out for my best interests, but I trust her as a person to look out for her own best interests, and I trust that cooperating with me is definitely in her best interests.
I definitely wouldn't trust Jan; kookiness is an easy front for a schemer. And while I wouldn't trust Keldorn to never betray me, I would trust him to give me notice before betraying me, which would probably be good enough for my purposes.
I also wouldn't say it's the most powerful relic in the realms, it's great for a mage, but once you get past a certain point then spells per level become less impressive and casting speed becomes MUCH more important. As long as you have enough spell slots for the key spells then all that really matters is using them wisely because you can either make them last regardless of Edwin's additional quota, or rest/wish rest.
It's kind of quibbling whether it's literally the most powerful relic in the entire universe or only in the top 5. And sure, by the time you're level 27 the difference between 5 level 9 spells and 7 level 9 spells isn't that big anymore. (Though I'd note that Wish-Resting is never guaranteed, so if you're going to rely on it, having seven level 9 spells *IS* a substantial advantage. The difference between four Wishes plus one Time Stop and four wishes plus three Time Stops is substantial.)
But I'd say Edwin's Amulet is unambiguously better than Robe of Vecna up through level 17 (since you need Improved Alacrity to take full advantage of the robe), and I'd say it's still better at 18 and 19 (because there's a huge difference between four level 9 spells and two level 9 spells). Around level 20 and 22 it'd be a heavy debate for me, and by level 27 I'd definitely prefer Robe of Vecna. But that's almost 6.4m experience in, which is basically the end of ToB with a party of six.
There's never any point where I'd take Amulet of Power over Edwin's Amulet, though. A 1-point casting speed increase isn't doing a whole lot for me compared to two extra casts of my highest-level spells. Negative Plane Protection is kind of unnecessary on a mage thanks to Protection from Magic Weapons and Animate Dead and Mordenk's Sword. (Or, for that matter, just plain-old invisibility.)
Like I said, it's all kind of splitting hairs. If we accept that the extra spells are intended to be considered a feature of his amulet (and not a feature of Edwin himself), then we must accept that there's a level 2 mage just wandering around with literally one of the most powerful artifacts ever created and he's hanging out in some flyspeck mining town because he needs some help to deal with a handful of gnolls.
Umm, if you need 2 extra spells per level for the later part of the game then you are doing it wrong. Immunity to level drain is extremely handy because it means you don't have to constantly blow Protection from Magic weapons every time you encounter something with energy drain, having to cast 1 spell every 4 rounds that is 6th level is going to really add up in extra rests or possibly cost you dearly if you have ran out.
Once i get project image then 1 7th level spell means i can cast my ENTIRE spell list, unless it gets dispelled, that includes anything in the quick use slots such as scroll of wish, lol. In fact the reason i usually use the Circlet of Netheril in ToB is precisely because it's an otherwise fairly redundant slot for a mage that adds 1 7th and 1 8th, meaning 1 more project image, not that i NEED another, but i'll take +10 HP's and 2 high level slots over pretty much anything else i mage can plonk on their head.
As for immunity to level drain then, especially solo, there are several encounters throughout the game that have energy draining enemies that can see through invisibility, now sure it's rare, but like i said most of the items that have energy drain protection are difficult to obtain early and in many cases cannot be wielded by a Mage OR a Thief w/o UAI. So question is do i want to switch in a weapon that i cannot backstab with (if multi/dual thief/Mage combo) just so i could theoretically use Edwins +2 spells per level amulet that i have literally NEVER needed in any play-through s because a mage or Sorcerer has all the tools by late game to never run out of spells unless they specifically choose to limit themselves or they are a Necromancer and do not get access to Illusion spells.
Admittedly it helps solo because i vacuum up all the XP for 1 character, but the game is pretty much split into difficult mode, which means Pre-Project Image, and Easy mode, after-Project image, lol. Most bosses/dragons i fight once i hit level 15 involve project image and unloading my spell list, it's just inefficient not to do so and anything that can cast True sight can be countered by getting the image to put up Spell Immunity: Divination.
I'm not necessarily going to disagree with those who say almost no one would work with Hexxat, because it's a good point. But personally if I really were the Bhaalspawn and thrown into this situation, the only people I WOULD trust is Imoen, Jaheira, Minsc, Aerie, Nalia, and Mazzy. Maybe Jan.
Now this is ME I'm talking about, and how I feel I'd judge them based on first impressions.
The first list should be obvious. All are good (Jaheira is not neutral) and most of them are old companions who've proven their trust.
Jan is just the sort of person I'd trust. Can't explain it better than that. I like the cut of his jib.
Keldorn and Anomen are obviously good, but I would be wary of them. While I know that I have the best intentions, there's the fact I'm the son of a dead evil god and the whole...misunderstanding in Baldur's Gate after the Siege of Dragonspear. Something would worry me they'd decide I was "too dangerous to be left alive." I know they don't, but if this were "real" I wouldn't have that kind of pre cognizance.
Valygar I would trust if I weren't a mage and I always am, so no.
Cernd is too druid for me. I'm always wary of potential Poison Ivy types.
Haer'dalis is a jerk. From the very start, I'd hate him.
Yoshimo comes across as too convenient from the very start. My very first playthrough, I knew he was trouble.
Everyone else is evil and gives plenty of reason not to trust them.
Now I say all of that to say this - I've had most of thee above in my party before, and i've done whole playthroughs with them. It didn't always make sense - because the real me wouldn't trust most of those people, but I wanted to have the fun of playing them and seeing their stories unfold. So while I freely admit no sane person would ever allow Hexxat, a vampire, into the confidence of the party - I lay that aside to see her story and her tale, which I frankly found compelling.
I can agree with this reasoning for a good or possibly neutral Charname. For an evil charname I think it's less about "trusting" your companions and more about "using" your companions. I wouldn't trust anyone, but I'd be happy to let them tag along as long as they helped me further my own ends. I'd just keep an extra wary eye on them.
I'd also add Viconia to the list of NPCs I trusted, ironically enough. Not in BG1 because all you really know about her is that she's (a) a drow and (b) on the run from the law. But in BG2 you can see pretty quickly that she literally has nowhere else to go. She can't betray you because she has no one to betray you to. Unlike some of the companions, (Yoshimo), there's really nothing "convenient" about her meeting to put my guard up, either.
I don't trust her as a person to look out for my best interests, but I trust her as a person to look out for her own best interests, and I trust that cooperating with me is definitely in her best interests.
I definitely wouldn't trust Jan; kookiness is an easy front for a schemer. And while I wouldn't trust Keldorn to never betray me, I would trust him to give me notice before betraying me, which would probably be good enough for my purposes.
To some extent a Neutral Charname could be using the party as well. Specially if they are of a druidic leaning at all because they often are either seeking balance or the best way to do things and not necessarily the "right" way to do things.
I'd be wary of too many "goodie goodie" types in that case. Because they can do things unexpectedly because it's right to them. Which can throw a practical plan right out the window at a critical moment.
With Viconia, even as a good person, I'd give her some trust. For one. She's out for herself but that makes her responses extremely predictable and reliable to behave in certain ways. For Two. Being who and what she is in the situation she is. She's one that could potentially change. She's also one that even if she doesn't change. Could likely be the most loyal of characters if you can at least earn her trust when she doesn't trust much from anyone.
"Nah mate, the amulet recreates the benefits of the Red Wizard class kit. It's pretty damn probable that, in a game which didn't feature kits, that his amulet's powers are supposed to be interpreted as being from his special training as opposed to literally bestowed to him from a magic item. The devs did this for the ease of coding it that way, just like Imoen's belt. That is all there is to it."
Which is basically what I was trying to say but more succinct.
And then argue about the amulet being powerful? And also argue against the idea that RWofT should be more powerful in game?
To all intents and purposes, the amulet doesn't really exist, it's a get around for the developers.
"Nah mate, the amulet recreates the benefits of the Red Wizard class kit. It's pretty damn probable that, in a game which didn't feature kits, that his amulet's powers are supposed to be interpreted as being from his special training as opposed to literally bestowed to him from a magic item. The devs did this for the ease of coding it that way, just like Imoen's belt. That is all there is to it."
Which is basically what I was trying to say but more succinct.
And then argue about the amulet being powerful? And also argue against the idea that RWofT should be more powerful in game?
To all intents and purposes, the amulet doesn't really exist, it's a get around for the developers.
I'm saying there are two possible interpretations.
Interpretation #1: Edwin's bonus spell slots are due to something special about Edwin himself and the amulet is merely some trinket. (This is my preferred interpretation.) The "something special" is usually the fact that he's a Red Wizard, but that's only supposed to grant him one spell slot instead of two, and that's also supposed to give him another banned school which he doesn't have. Interpretation #2: Edwin's bonus spell slots are due to the amulet and Edwin is just an ordinary mage.
I'm also saying that both interpretations are highly problematic. Under the first interpretation, which I favor, Edwin is a Mary-Sue from a mechanical standpoint. What is so special about him that he gets to be the most powerful wizard in all of the realms, better at magecraft than you, the literal child of a god?
Under the second interpretation, which I don't favor but recognize that some people do, Edwin is still a Mary-Sue mechanically. What is so special about him to warrant giving him one of the most powerful artifacts to ever be created when he's just a lowly level 2 mage running around some podunk mining town looking for some help to kill some gnolls?
There's two explanations for how Edwin gets those spell slots, and neither of them really explains *WHY* this random nobody mage is potentially the most powerful spellcaster in the realms. He's not the son of a god. He's not been possessed by an ancient lich. He wasn't created in a lab, he didn't materialize after a powerful wish.
He's just some random no-name, nobody Red Wizard, of which there are literally hundreds, and yet he's running around with the most latent spellpower of any human who has ever lived. And that's not ever explained. And since "power and success far greater than would be explained by their backstory" was originally the defining characteristic of a Mary-Sue, I think an argument can be made that Edwin is the biggest Mary-Sue in BG2.
Everybody is always so big about whether it's the amulet or Edwin.
I would say there is technically a third interpretation. a middle of the road. Part of it is Edwin. Part of it is the Amulet. And the both of them combine to make up what we see mechanically on the amulet. Edwin is a hunter of rare and strange magic and we don't have any reason for Edwin to even be on the Sword Coast reguardless of how good a mage he is.
so I'm going to wrap this altogether. Edwin being a Red Wizard had better than basic spell casting abilities and then he stole an amulet from his betters that makes him even better in the form of extra spell slots on top of that. Giving us the mechanical effects of the amulet wrapped together to make the +2 item that we see before us. And the reason that he's in a Podunk mining town is because while he was absconding with the amulet off to some place low on the reach scale of Red Wizards he had a run in with Minsc and Dynaheir. Perhaps the reason that he wants her dead is she has some knowledge or recognition of his amulet and his stolen state and he doesn't want it to get out. We don't know. I recall I was once able to get them both into the same party with a really high charisma and just the right dialogue options but I don't think that is possible anymore.
I'd also add Viconia to the list of NPCs I trusted, ironically enough....Unlike some of the companions, (Yoshimo), there's really nothing "convenient" about her meeting to put my guard up, either.
"Ok, you all tie me up to this stake and give a big spiel about how I'm foul and need to beg for mercy before you burn me alive and then The Bhaalspawn'll see it and remember me and come kill you all and save me. QUICK, THERE HE/SHE IS!"
I'd also add Viconia to the list of NPCs I trusted, ironically enough....Unlike some of the companions, (Yoshimo), there's really nothing "convenient" about her meeting to put my guard up, either.
"Ok, you all tie me up to this stake and give a big spiel about how I'm foul and need to beg for mercy before you burn me alive and then The Bhaalspawn'll see it and remember me and come kill you all and save me. QUICK, THERE HE/SHE IS!"
If we're going to descend to that level of paranoia, there's no reason to trust Minsc, either. "Okay Irenicus, I led you to my group, now remember to throw me into one of the cages with them so I can keep an eye on them and if they do manage to bust out, they won't suspect me. That way they'll be sure to take me with and I can keep tabs on them for you."
Imoen: "Okay, okay, I'll do anything to stop the torture! What? Betray Charname? Never, he's practically my brother. OKAY FINE! I'll betray him, I'll betray him, just stop torturing me. Yes, I remember, when we break out I'm specifically supposed to cast a stupid pointless spell at you so the authorities have some silly pretense to take me away, too."
Nalia: "That Bhaalspawn is a big hero, so I'll need to invent some danger to get him to trust me. Here, I'm going to pay a group of trolls to attack my own keep. There's no way he'd ever suspect me of attacking my own keep just to get his attention!"
Aerie: "Uncle Quayle, are you sure we need to go to these great lengths to get the Bhaalspawn to take me in? I know, I know, we have to keep an eye on him, but he knows you, couldn't we just ask him? Alright uncle Quayle, you know him best. It was really clever to set up the circus tent right in front of his prison like that. Oh look, he just broke out, quick, let's slip that potion into Kalah's drink!"
(Nalia and Aerie especially, given that the way their plot resolves specifically points out that *something* set those events in motion, but we have no idea who or what. How convenient...)
(Also, if it were a ploy on Viconia's part, I doubt she'd have instructed the peasants to *actually light the fire, too*, especially given that we're operating under the assumption that you didn't trust her enough to bring her with in BG1. Remember, her defining trait is her self-preservation, which is why we find her trustworthy. So even a regularly paranoid Charname could just wait until the fire was lit before intervening.)
Aerie's situation in the tent actually is explained. There are little conversations and even dialogue options with the one that caused it before and after that explain that the little mad gnome did cause it all in his interest to be seen better and treated better than he thought he was being treated for being a bumbling little gnome entertainer. Kalah being the mad little gnome in this case.
(mad as in crazy just for that hopefully unneeded clarification)
Comments
It's subjective. Not more nor less. These discussions are sometimes entertaining but mostly pointless.
Again, as near as I can tell, from Thay's standpoint he's just some kid wizard from down the street who took off and left. If Thay was the Shire, Edwin would be Frodo. Except instead of relying on his companions to help him carry his burden, he became literally more powerful than a god.
If Edwin is a typical Thayvian Wizard, it boggles my mind how they haven't conquered the entire universe yet. He gets three extra spells per level at every single level and basically only gives up Identify and True Sight. Mechanically speaking, it's absurd.
Say you replaced magic with science, would being the son of a God make you a better scientist than anybody else?
It's not the usual Godlike attribute that you think of, usually SofaG tends to boost the physical aspects, stronger, faster, fitter, ect.
If instead you looked at it, yes they can be a very good scientist, one of the best. But the Godlike bits means they can also run the 100 m faster than anybody else, carry more than anybody else ect. and do all that as well as the science.
Would't you say that was more Godlike?
(Beyond that, gods are hardly monoliths, so I wouldn't expect their children to be, either. I'd imagine Oghma runs a pretty slow 100m, all things considered.)
Sort of like Imoen in the starter dungeon is wearing a belt that makes her unkillable, and we know that this unkillability is a property of the belt because we've read the belt's properties on NI, but from an in-game perspective it's not the belt. When you meet her you're not all "Hey Imoen, whatever happened to that belt that made you immortal, that sure would come in handy right now."
The other is that she doesn't fit in with their good and neutral aligned charname and groups based around that.
The two overlap somewhat but it boils down to a bit of both. I usually argue that people are a little too trusting of the evil characters from the original game that do mix in a little better because their motives are equally unhealthy... and more subtle.
Storywise I'm the type that all different types are useful. even if they don't always mesh well. powergaming wise. I have uses for a pure thief... Most of the thieves in the game are kind of hampered even though I'll get all kinds of arguments about dual and multiclassing being superior. I find there are certain things that in some ways make a single class thief very useful and occasionally better. But my style also tends to vary a bit from other peoples.
I also wouldn't say it's the most powerful relic in the realms, it's great for a mage, but once you get past a certain point then spells per level become less impressive and casting speed becomes MUCH more important. As long as you have enough spell slots for the key spells then all that really matters is using them wisely because you can either make them last regardless of Edwin's additional quota, or rest/wish rest.
Most of my runs are solo with a mage class usually dual or multi, the only items i tend to use with extra spell slots are ToB ones, perhaps the Bards gloves if/when UAI is unlocked and sometimes Circlet of Netheril. If i had the choice of using Edwins Amulet i would decline because +1 spell speed and immunity to level drain plus a bit of magic resistance is almost always more useful. I mean yes you can get neg plane protection from various weapons, but they are not always able to be equipped and are always on upgraded weapons which come later, past the point where spell speed >>>>> spell slots.
Although there's more that have immunity to level drain which is literally all that there is to NPP.
Upgraded Mace of Disruption
Upgraded Angurvadal
(Upgraded) Hindo's Doom has Lesser/Greater Restoration charges. Upgraded one has immunity to death effects, but not level drain. (So basically built in 'Death Ward').
This search done by string text searching and checking relevant items, so I might be missing some with such a limited search.
Now this is ME I'm talking about, and how I feel I'd judge them based on first impressions.
The first list should be obvious. All are good (Jaheira is not neutral) and most of them are old companions who've proven their trust.
Jan is just the sort of person I'd trust. Can't explain it better than that. I like the cut of his jib.
Keldorn and Anomen are obviously good, but I would be wary of them. While I know that I have the best intentions, there's the fact I'm the son of a dead evil god and the whole...misunderstanding in Baldur's Gate after the Siege of Dragonspear. Something would worry me they'd decide I was "too dangerous to be left alive." I know they don't, but if this were "real" I wouldn't have that kind of pre cognizance.
Valygar I would trust if I weren't a mage and I always am, so no.
Cernd is too druid for me. I'm always wary of potential Poison Ivy types.
Haer'dalis is a jerk. From the very start, I'd hate him.
Yoshimo comes across as too convenient from the very start. My very first playthrough, I knew he was trouble.
Everyone else is evil and gives plenty of reason not to trust them.
Now I say all of that to say this - I've had most of thee above in my party before, and i've done whole playthroughs with them. It didn't always make sense - because the real me wouldn't trust most of those people, but I wanted to have the fun of playing them and seeing their stories unfold. So while I freely admit no sane person would ever allow Hexxat, a vampire, into the confidence of the party - I lay that aside to see her story and her tale, which I frankly found compelling.
But I'd say Edwin's Amulet is unambiguously better than Robe of Vecna up through level 17 (since you need Improved Alacrity to take full advantage of the robe), and I'd say it's still better at 18 and 19 (because there's a huge difference between four level 9 spells and two level 9 spells). Around level 20 and 22 it'd be a heavy debate for me, and by level 27 I'd definitely prefer Robe of Vecna. But that's almost 6.4m experience in, which is basically the end of ToB with a party of six.
There's never any point where I'd take Amulet of Power over Edwin's Amulet, though. A 1-point casting speed increase isn't doing a whole lot for me compared to two extra casts of my highest-level spells. Negative Plane Protection is kind of unnecessary on a mage thanks to Protection from Magic Weapons and Animate Dead and Mordenk's Sword. (Or, for that matter, just plain-old invisibility.)
Like I said, it's all kind of splitting hairs. If we accept that the extra spells are intended to be considered a feature of his amulet (and not a feature of Edwin himself), then we must accept that there's a level 2 mage just wandering around with literally one of the most powerful artifacts ever created and he's hanging out in some flyspeck mining town because he needs some help to deal with a handful of gnolls.
I'd also add Viconia to the list of NPCs I trusted, ironically enough. Not in BG1 because all you really know about her is that she's (a) a drow and (b) on the run from the law. But in BG2 you can see pretty quickly that she literally has nowhere else to go. She can't betray you because she has no one to betray you to. Unlike some of the companions, (Yoshimo), there's really nothing "convenient" about her meeting to put my guard up, either.
I don't trust her as a person to look out for my best interests, but I trust her as a person to look out for her own best interests, and I trust that cooperating with me is definitely in her best interests.
I definitely wouldn't trust Jan; kookiness is an easy front for a schemer. And while I wouldn't trust Keldorn to never betray me, I would trust him to give me notice before betraying me, which would probably be good enough for my purposes.
Once i get project image then 1 7th level spell means i can cast my ENTIRE spell list, unless it gets dispelled, that includes anything in the quick use slots such as scroll of wish, lol. In fact the reason i usually use the Circlet of Netheril in ToB is precisely because it's an otherwise fairly redundant slot for a mage that adds 1 7th and 1 8th, meaning 1 more project image, not that i NEED another, but i'll take +10 HP's and 2 high level slots over pretty much anything else i mage can plonk on their head.
As for immunity to level drain then, especially solo, there are several encounters throughout the game that have energy draining enemies that can see through invisibility, now sure it's rare, but like i said most of the items that have energy drain protection are difficult to obtain early and in many cases cannot be wielded by a Mage OR a Thief w/o UAI. So question is do i want to switch in a weapon that i cannot backstab with (if multi/dual thief/Mage combo) just so i could theoretically use Edwins +2 spells per level amulet that i have literally NEVER needed in any play-through s because a mage or Sorcerer has all the tools by late game to never run out of spells unless they specifically choose to limit themselves or they are a Necromancer and do not get access to Illusion spells.
Admittedly it helps solo because i vacuum up all the XP for 1 character, but the game is pretty much split into difficult mode, which means Pre-Project Image, and Easy mode, after-Project image, lol. Most bosses/dragons i fight once i hit level 15 involve project image and unloading my spell list, it's just inefficient not to do so and anything that can cast True sight can be countered by getting the image to put up Spell Immunity: Divination.
I'd be wary of too many "goodie goodie" types in that case. Because they can do things unexpectedly because it's right to them. Which can throw a practical plan right out the window at a critical moment.
With Viconia, even as a good person, I'd give her some trust. For one. She's out for herself but that makes her responses extremely predictable and reliable to behave in certain ways. For Two. Being who and what she is in the situation she is. She's one that could potentially change. She's also one that even if she doesn't change. Could likely be the most loyal of characters if you can at least earn her trust when she doesn't trust much from anyone.
How can you agree with this,
"Nah mate, the amulet recreates the benefits of the Red Wizard class kit. It's pretty damn probable that, in a game which didn't feature kits, that his amulet's powers are supposed to be interpreted as being from his special training as opposed to literally bestowed to him from a magic item. The devs did this for the ease of coding it that way, just like Imoen's belt. That is all there is to it."
Which is basically what I was trying to say but more succinct.
And then argue about the amulet being powerful?
And also argue against the idea that RWofT should be more powerful in game?
To all intents and purposes, the amulet doesn't really exist, it's a get around for the developers.
Interpretation #1: Edwin's bonus spell slots are due to something special about Edwin himself and the amulet is merely some trinket. (This is my preferred interpretation.) The "something special" is usually the fact that he's a Red Wizard, but that's only supposed to grant him one spell slot instead of two, and that's also supposed to give him another banned school which he doesn't have.
Interpretation #2: Edwin's bonus spell slots are due to the amulet and Edwin is just an ordinary mage.
I'm also saying that both interpretations are highly problematic. Under the first interpretation, which I favor, Edwin is a Mary-Sue from a mechanical standpoint. What is so special about him that he gets to be the most powerful wizard in all of the realms, better at magecraft than you, the literal child of a god?
Under the second interpretation, which I don't favor but recognize that some people do, Edwin is still a Mary-Sue mechanically. What is so special about him to warrant giving him one of the most powerful artifacts to ever be created when he's just a lowly level 2 mage running around some podunk mining town looking for some help to kill some gnolls?
There's two explanations for how Edwin gets those spell slots, and neither of them really explains *WHY* this random nobody mage is potentially the most powerful spellcaster in the realms. He's not the son of a god. He's not been possessed by an ancient lich. He wasn't created in a lab, he didn't materialize after a powerful wish.
He's just some random no-name, nobody Red Wizard, of which there are literally hundreds, and yet he's running around with the most latent spellpower of any human who has ever lived. And that's not ever explained. And since "power and success far greater than would be explained by their backstory" was originally the defining characteristic of a Mary-Sue, I think an argument can be made that Edwin is the biggest Mary-Sue in BG2.
I would say there is technically a third interpretation. a middle of the road. Part of it is Edwin. Part of it is the Amulet. And the both of them combine to make up what we see mechanically on the amulet. Edwin is a hunter of rare and strange magic and we don't have any reason for Edwin to even be on the Sword Coast reguardless of how good a mage he is.
so I'm going to wrap this altogether. Edwin being a Red Wizard had better than basic spell casting abilities and then he stole an amulet from his betters that makes him even better in the form of extra spell slots on top of that. Giving us the mechanical effects of the amulet wrapped together to make the +2 item that we see before us. And the reason that he's in a Podunk mining town is because while he was absconding with the amulet off to some place low on the reach scale of Red Wizards he had a run in with Minsc and Dynaheir. Perhaps the reason that he wants her dead is she has some knowledge or recognition of his amulet and his stolen state and he doesn't want it to get out. We don't know. I recall I was once able to get them both into the same party with a really high charisma and just the right dialogue options but I don't think that is possible anymore.
Imoen: "Okay, okay, I'll do anything to stop the torture! What? Betray Charname? Never, he's practically my brother. OKAY FINE! I'll betray him, I'll betray him, just stop torturing me. Yes, I remember, when we break out I'm specifically supposed to cast a stupid pointless spell at you so the authorities have some silly pretense to take me away, too."
Nalia: "That Bhaalspawn is a big hero, so I'll need to invent some danger to get him to trust me. Here, I'm going to pay a group of trolls to attack my own keep. There's no way he'd ever suspect me of attacking my own keep just to get his attention!"
Aerie: "Uncle Quayle, are you sure we need to go to these great lengths to get the Bhaalspawn to take me in? I know, I know, we have to keep an eye on him, but he knows you, couldn't we just ask him? Alright uncle Quayle, you know him best. It was really clever to set up the circus tent right in front of his prison like that. Oh look, he just broke out, quick, let's slip that potion into Kalah's drink!"
(Nalia and Aerie especially, given that the way their plot resolves specifically points out that *something* set those events in motion, but we have no idea who or what. How convenient...)
(Also, if it were a ploy on Viconia's part, I doubt she'd have instructed the peasants to *actually light the fire, too*, especially given that we're operating under the assumption that you didn't trust her enough to bring her with in BG1. Remember, her defining trait is her self-preservation, which is why we find her trustworthy. So even a regularly paranoid Charname could just wait until the fire was lit before intervening.)
(mad as in crazy just for that hopefully unneeded clarification)