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Hexxat is the best Enhanced Edition NPC [Major Spoilers!]

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  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 814
    From a role playing perspective, I have a hard time justifying allowing Hexxat into the party after killing Clara unless I'm an absolutely died-in-the-wool evil character, which is too bad. I know BG2 was lacking in evil NPCs and needed Hexxat to finally allow for a fully evil 6-person team, but I tend to play ambiguous neutral types and wish there was more grey area to her character. Her ending is an interesting narrative choice and her early personal quests are fun, but irredeemable evil is about as interesting to me as uncorruptible good.
    BaptorAttalus
  • BaptorBaptor Member Posts: 150
    Purudaya said:

    From a role playing perspective, I have a hard time justifying allowing Hexxat into the party after killing Clara unless I'm an absolutely died-in-the-wool evil character, which is too bad. I know BG2 was lacking in evil NPCs and needed Hexxat to finally allow for a fully evil 6-person team, but I tend to play ambiguous neutral types and wish there was more grey area to her character. Her ending is an interesting narrative choice and her early personal quests are fun, but irredeemable evil is about as interesting to me as uncorruptible good.

    Yeah, gotta agree with you. Clara is the sticky part. If they could have given even a passing reason for her demise, maybe she worked for L and was evil too, it would not be so bad. I have to admit my first ee run I killed hexxat for the villain she was. But her story was just too intriguing to pass up the second time, and I found it to be the most interesting of them all. But yeah, even most evil NPCs would stake her after witnessing that butchery. Who could trust her? Ever?

    Once you get past that, it's a great story IMHO. Overall I loved hexxat. There are definite flaws, like Clara's murder, but as a whole I still think she's at the top of the new NPCs for me.

    Purudaya
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 814
    I think Clara's existence was more about giving fans a surprise at release (which worked quite well) than about her being necessary to set up Hexxat. As a result, you have a character that had a fun short term purpose but does not age well with the game. Her role (and voice acting) was off-putting enough for me that I get irritated just seeing her hanging around the Copper Coronet, especially knowing that she'll be there *forever* unless I decide to do something about it. CTRL+Y, usually.

    Hexxat could have just as easily lured Charname and party into the crypt via some kind of messenger, portal, spell, or one of many other methods of pushing characters from point A to point B in the realms. I'd love to see a mod that does exactly that, come to think of it.
    Baptor
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,224
    Hexxat's character design was the one with the most potential in the EE. I kinda like her too, though it is a real shame the writing is so subpar. She could indeed be the best EE NPC with better writing but as of now this really isn't true.
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 187
    From something I read Hexxat likes to have romances with women. So she probably does like her and have a thing for maiden women. So she probably is trying to be nice to her... and perhaps hit on her a bit.

    If she shows signs of being remorseful or regretful for what she is. Maybe what should be done in a mod somewhere is perhaps under the right circumstances being able to change her from a vampire somehow.
    I haven't gotten to really play with her so I can't say how feasible that is. I'm just going off of some things that I'm reading here.

    As for Korgan. He backs down in a few instances. Perhaps with a bit of Irony they are mostly to situations involving women. Another one that isn't mentioned in this particular thread is that if you get a romance with aerie far enough. Instead of shrinking away in their confrontation dialogue she actually stands up to him and snaps back and he kind of apologizes and says he was doing all of it to kind of toughen her up. They actually get along better after that conversation. I think one of the triggers to get the conversation to change was either Chapter 6 or ToB. It's been so long I don't remember which.

    On the Issue of Mod Characters. Most unrepentant evil characters were met with ridiculous ammounts of hate of the same kind seen in certain places for Hexxat. And I would have to agree on the point that too many of the characters don't react all that much to many evil things that you can do or have the party do. There only seem to be a few evil triggers that really get hackles up. There are one or two individual character ones. But mostly it's like if you don't get your rep too low. Don't join Bodhi. A couple other things I can't remember. Your Good Characters won't complain much or interject or break ranks too often. And a couple of them won't even do it for most of those. At least one of the semi-popular "add a vampire" npc mods that was out for a while back in the day got no reaction to her evil ways and was basically overpowered a decent amount of the time for being a vampire without any remorse. level drain was tried as an inate power on at least one of them as well and it was found that it was just way too powerful to stick on an npc. That is probably part of the reason Hexxat doesn't have it now.

    Chloe got hate for several reasons. A godlike Dex that the PC couldn't get was one of them,and considering the addiction that people have for the kensai class that may not be surprising. As was mentioned. For a while it seemed like every single mod Was some kind of Kensai or Kensai mixed class and a number of those mods are all practically the same. And this is considering she was better written than most of the Kensai mods that were actually out there back in the day, not to mention issues with some of the non-Kensai mods.

    I personally liked Chloe and she wasn't really overpowered. For having that godlike stat she was more or less balanced for the group (specially considering Dex is the second to least useful Stat for her to have at the highest levels). The true problem with her is that she had a great many things to say about everything and that could get a little annoying. Certain versions of the mod she'd even break banters of other party members once upon a time. There was also some small issue that certain things about her were a bit Imoen reliant as well unfortunately which could take up two of your character slots when party planning.
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,251
    edited April 26
    I've never understood what parts of Hexxat's dialogues people feel are "sub-par". I've read many people say just that, but I don't remember ever seeing anyone actually quoting said sub-par dialogues. It would be an interesting read since I think Hexxat is the best EE NPC in the BG games, and including SoD I think she is on par with Corwin as number 1 overall from Beamdog when it comes to story and writing. I don't filter in personal opinions on the actual character of the character in this judgement. I leave such emotional parameters outside when grading NPCs which is why I can see that Neera is very well-made and integrated overall, I'd probably rate her top three overall, but I never play her due to her appalling character.

    Personally I have never encountered bugs with her, so that has left me with a good impression, but I think part of the hate for Hexxat come from the early versions where her quests was kinda bugged. This is just speculation from my part though and I can't back it up with any quotes or facts.

    Edit: I should probably mention that the reason why I think Hexxat is number one is because of the way she is introduced (and I LOVE the scene where the empty shell of Clara is drained by Hexxat) and because of her overall story and personal quests. It's without a doubt the most innovative introduction to an NPC and the quests are perfect, both in size and lenght.

    Edit 2: Just one more thing (hehe); I think it's extremely interesting that some people think that Hexxat killing Clara is reason to kill her on the spot; partly because she is a vampire that just killed someone, and partly because Clara was a party member. I mean, REALLY?! Clara is a mindless meatbag with one purpose and a few lines of dialogue she keeps repeating. If she dies, what party leader would actually care that strongly? I mean if you care so much for her then you should care equally strong for every elemental/Skeleton/wild dogs/hobgoblins you summon forth and who are then died, they have about the same personality as Clara. I have no problem RPing that most charnames take Hexxat in (unless the CHARNAME is an UD hunter, Cleric of Lathander etc). She may be evil, but not much more so than ie Baeloth or Edwin.
    tbone1
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,461
    edited April 26
    @Skatan I am currently doing a run for the Hexxat romance. While I do like her as a character, her writing is lacking in the way that there are only very few dialogue options for the player to choose. It's almost Dragon Age 2 levels of bad at times, where you can only choose between "lawful good no fun allowed", "sassy and punny" and "evil uncaring". It makes for very limited roleplay.

    Like, I don't care if additional dialogue options actually make a difference, but it's the lacking flavour that makes me frequently go "my Charname wouldn't say either of these". I mean, I am not expecting Planescape: Torment levels of option diversity, but there are notably fewer options than in most of the BG2 vanilla dialogues.

    PS: But honestly, anyone who claims that her writing is bad because "my lawful good paladin can't take along the literal vampire in good conscience" needs to seriously rethink that statement.
    Post edited by Buttercheese on
    Skatantbone1JuliusBorisovBaptor
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 187
    I've got an assassin game slowly in the works. I may take hexxat for that to play her all the way through myself.
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,251
    Thanks @buttercheese. I don't remember that from my playthroughs (only two with her, IIRC) so probably my charnames fit the dialogues rather good then, I presume.

    I can fully understand why ppl regards writing as poor if the dialogue options are too limited though. I always assumed that when people say the Hexxat writing is sub-par or bad, I thought they meant her dialogues rather than the replies for Charname.
    Buttercheese
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,461
    It's often hard to tell what people actually mean vs. what they are saying, so I can't blame you ;D
    But yeah, no doubt that in a lot of cases people mean exactly what you assume they mean.
    Ech.
    Skatan
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,224
    Skatan said:

    Thanks @buttercheese. I don't remember that from my playthroughs (only two with her, IIRC) so probably my charnames fit the dialogues rather good then, I presume.

    I can fully understand why ppl regards writing as poor if the dialogue options are too limited though. I always assumed that when people say the Hexxat writing is sub-par or bad, I thought they meant her dialogues rather than the replies for Charname.

    Well Hexxat's writing really felt like the quintessence of what I didn't appreciate too much with EE NPCs (though they were good overall, I would not say otherwise), namely a limited choice of options on how to react to what she says. Your answer choice often boils down to:
    Yes I agree
    No I disagree
    Some overly forced joke that is not funny.


    And while this is OK with Neera who's definitely an eccentric, or with Dorn because he reacts to that teasing in a way I like, being the overly sensible Half-orc he is. Calling Dorn a "big lug" might feel out of place but even as an Evil character this type of humor feels nice enough that I like it. An association of Evil people do not necessarily need to be badass at all time, IMHO. And Rasaad is pretty much the same, except he is a goody-two-shoes more than a "baddy-two-shoes". But their design are more adapted to that type of answers.
    Hexxat however is a very different type of Evil. While Dorn and Korgan are bloodthirsty and would do anything for more power or wealth, Hexxat doesn't enjoy killing people. The reason why Hexxat is classified Evil is because she is selfish. She would do anything to survive, but she wouldn't kill just for fun, and she very much would like not to have to kill people and return to a not-vampire state. She might have been, decades before the game begins, like Dorn or Korgan, but she spent decades in that coffin and this must have changed a thing or two to her wealth/power wish.


    Please note, however, that this is only my opinion and I am totally respectful of yours.
    Skatan
  • AttalusAttalus Member Posts: 136
    Skatan said:

    Just one more thing (hehe); I think it's extremely interesting that some people think that Hexxat killing Clara is reason to kill her on the spot; partly because she is a vampire that just killed someone, and partly because Clara was a party member. I mean, REALLY?! Clara is a mindless meatbag with one purpose and a few lines of dialogue she keeps repeating. If she dies, what party leader would actually care that strongly? .

    Maybe some of us thought that she was under some type of spell (as indeed she was) and we could cure her. Maybe some of us are paternal and protective of our party NPCs and don't relish getting one killed by a horrid vampire (with a TERRIBLE portrait) and think that said horrid vampire should be resting in Dragomir's tomb with a stake through her black heart. Maybe.

    SkatanUnderstandMouseMagicThacoBellArtona
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,461
    Attalus said:

    (with a TERRIBLE portrait)

    Are we talking about the same portrait here or ...?
    tbone1Skatan
  • AttalusAttalus Member Posts: 136
    Dunno. De gustibus est non disputandum
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 679
    atlest it's not sendai's.
    ThacoBellAttalusBaptor
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 187
    edited April 26
    half of the BG1 portraits are horrible. It'd be nice if SoB had overwritten a few of them completely. Imoen's and Viconia's are just two that come immediately to mind but I'm sure there are more.

    If we based things purely on horrible portraits we'd never get a working party together.
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,251
    ThacoBell said:

    Personally, I don't think Hexxats writing is sub-par so much as it gets under my skin.

    ThacoBell said:

    ...everything about how she is written annoys me.

    Hehe :D :D :D
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 256
    Skatan said:


    Edit: I should probably mention that the reason why I think Hexxat is number one is because of the way she is introduced (and I LOVE the scene where the empty shell of Clara is drained by Hexxat) and because of her overall story and personal quests. It's without a doubt the most innovative introduction to an NPC and the quests are perfect, both in size and lenght.

    Edit 2: Just one more thing (hehe); I think it's extremely interesting that some people think that Hexxat killing Clara is reason to kill her on the spot; partly because she is a vampire that just killed someone, and partly because Clara was a party member. I mean, REALLY?! Clara is a mindless meatbag with one purpose and a few lines of dialogue she keeps repeating. If she dies, what party leader would actually care that strongly? I mean if you care so much for her then you should care equally strong for every elemental/Skeleton/wild dogs/hobgoblins you summon forth and who are then died, they have about the same personality as Clara. I have no problem RPing that most charnames take Hexxat in (unless the CHARNAME is an UD hunter, Cleric of Lathander etc). She may be evil, but not much more so than ie Baeloth or Edwin.

    The thing is, Clara's actions until then have been under Hexxat's Domination (or roleplayed to be.) The instant she's free from it, she begs for mercy. And then Hexxat kills her. Compared to the other evil NPCs, not counting the EE ones just yet, this is a remarkable difference: a Good CHARNAME can justifiably believe that Viconia's innocent with lack of evidence of wrongdoing and all that, Edwin's doing the exact same thing you are in backstabbing Maevar, Korgan's a particularly bloodthirsty dwarf that's basically a mercenary. Hexxat has no plausible deniability, no reason to believe that she won't try to kill CHARNAME after Hexxat's used him/her. Dominate someone to get adventurers to release you from a coffin, sure. KILL that someone that just helped you for no good reason after releasing that someone from mind control? Yeah no.
    ArtonaSkatanGrum
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,461
    Oh no, evil characters comitting evil acts!
    THE HORROR!

    There are cases just as bad in vanilla BG.
    Looking at you, Eldoth.
    There is no logically feasable way for a female Charname to take him along unless the player doesn't do roleplay or if Charname is conceptualised as a complete moron. Kinda sorta the same vice versa (hah, rhyme) with Shar-Teel, but at least she is open and honest about her motives. Then there is Tiax who is obviously, clinically insane. Safana is a manipulative, lying b. Xzar and Montaron have just all sorts of wrong going on. Don't let me even get started on Edwin.

    No wise and/or "good" character would take them along.
    We take them along anyway, because of other reasons.
    Examples include but are not limited to: Super capable/ useful, fun/ interesting personality, interesting quest line, fun/ interesting banter with companions, simply attractive, etc.

    Honestly, I can think of more good reasons to take Hexxat along than to take along Eldoth, Skie or Tiax.
    Nine hells, there are more good reasons to take her along than Nalia (unless you are playing a fighter/monk).

    If you don't wanna take her along, fine.
    But I for my part find Hexxat a very enjoyable, welcome and most importantly refreshing addition to the roster.

    Oh yeah, also, if a player can find the will to side with Bodhi (of all people) instead of the Shadow Thieves, they should also be able to find it in themselves to take along Hexxat. Oh yeah, same with Viconia, Baeloth, Dorn and Edwin, who I may remind you all share an equally bad reputation to vampires (drow, black guard, Red Wizard of Thay).

    I have quite a few of Charname's who would absolutely be willing to take along Hexxat, exactly because she is a ruthless vampire. Vampires are known to be super strong and nigh indestructable. Having her as an ally is no less of a risk than having for example Korgan or Dorn.
    tbone1Skatan
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 653
    edited April 27
    ThacoBell said:

    Personally, I don't think Hexxats writing is sub-par so much as it gets under my skin. She screams "Mary Sue".

    She's a pureclass, kitless thief, though, which is a major Mary Sue fail.
    AttalusKuronaBaptor
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 940
    @Buttercheese

    "Vampires are known to be super strong and nigh indestructable."

    Unless the Charname is "stupid evil" they'd ask for garentees/restrictions before they'd take on Hexaat. A geas or something that would ensure they were in control.

    It's a bit like, dynamite is useful but you wouldn't smoke a fag while holding it. And Charname and the NPC's are walking, talking cigarettes to a vampire. And you are going places where the tobacconists are closed.
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,461
    As I said, she is no bigger of a thread than some of the other evil teammates.
    The part about her seeming level-headed and not insane makes her a safer bet than Korgan even, who would betray you for a nickel and a small keg of ale.
    And Dorn is a completely loose canon.

    In fact, the more you get to know about Hexxat, the better a companion she becomes.
    Like, yeah, she is evil still, but she is about the same "type" of evil as Viconia.
    She's not like for example Bodhi who comepletely relishes the fact that she is a vampire, Hexxat pretty much hates it.
    tbone1
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 940

    As I said, she is no bigger of a thread than some of the other evil teammates.
    The part about her seeming level-headed and not insane makes her a safer bet than Korgan even, who would betray you for a nickel and a small keg of ale.
    And Dorn is a completely loose canon.

    In fact, the more you get to know about Hexxat, the better a companion she becomes.
    Like, yeah, she is evil still, but she is about the same "type" of evil as Viconia.
    She's not like for example Bodhi who comepletely relishes the fact that she is a vampire, Hexxat pretty much hates it.

    It doesn't come down to "evil" for me though, hell Ewin and Viconia are my favourites.
    It's the "unable to trust her not getting hungry" which is far less calculated than "heres this big bag of cash but the downside is Charname/NPC's are pretty strong should I decide to take it".

    If you have her in party, particularly after being trapped in a tomb for God knows how long, you know full well she will bite one of you should circumstances dictate she has to to survive.

    Now of course there's always the possibility that you/NPC have to resort to cannibalism should things go really south, that's a risk you have to take. But say in the Sauhagin city, what would a vampire have to eat?
    Fish?
    Never heard of a pescatarian vampire, and although the game shortens time, I would have thought it would take a week or so to sort that out in reality.
    There's a real advantage to being an omnivore.
  • AWizardDidItAWizardDidIt Member Posts: 92
    edited April 27
    SomeSort said:

    ThacoBell said:

    Personally, I don't think Hexxats writing is sub-par so much as it gets under my skin. She screams "Mary Sue".

    She's a pureclass, kitless thief, though, which is a major Mary Sue fail.
    Yeah, any argument of "Mary-Sueness" is immediately undercut by the reality of her class. She's got high stats and some nice-ish special abilities but even those don't quite balance out how weak her inherent class is. From a power-gamer perspective, she's just not that great. She's certainly not better than either Imoen or Jan who provide all of the necessary utility of a thief while also being powerful spellcasters. Since the writing of the game doesn't ever push her as any more or less powerful than any other npc, any claims of Mary Sue-ness seem fallacious to me.
    SomeSort
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,461
    edited April 27
    Maybe, but she is also really really useful.

    For as long as a party member stays above the yellow line, they are worth it.
    I think she is very worth it.
    Especially since she is the only pure-class thief besides yoshimo, has insane stats and cool racial abilities and comes with her own extensive questline and romance (the only f/f romance to boot). Oh yeah, she is also the only evil aligned thief in BG2.

    Like, if you just don't like her because of tastes that is cool and all, but that doesn't make her an objectively bad character.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,335
    edited April 27
    SomeSort said:

    ThacoBell said:

    Personally, I don't think Hexxats writing is sub-par so much as it gets under my skin. She screams "Mary Sue".

    She's a pureclass, kitless thief, though, which is a major Mary Sue fail.
    UAI and Spike Trap. Even ignoring those, pureclass thieves are incredibly strong and usefull.
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 693
    ThacoBell said:

    SomeSort said:

    ThacoBell said:

    Personally, I don't think Hexxats writing is sub-par so much as it gets under my skin. She screams "Mary Sue".

    She's a pureclass, kitless thief, though, which is a major Mary Sue fail.
    UAI and Spike Trap. Even ignoring those, pureclass thieves are incredibly strong and usefull.
    Imoen can do everything Hexxat can do except traps. Even her backstab can be made more useful because she has access to Mislead, Polymorph Self and Shapechange.

    Jan can do all this too plus traps and UAI. He outclasses Hexxat completely in every category.

    With the exception of Nalia, who has so few Thief levels she needs gear and potions to function as one, Hexxat is the weakest Thief available (not counting Yoshimo since he isn't permanent). For a character the narrative treats as an über badass, this is pretty jarring.
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 187
    Technically. The first time charname meets Edwin is in BG1. The first words out of his mouth are going out and murdering some woman you don't even know. Or if you picked up minsc flipping out and demanding he go with you because Minsc can't be trusted and Edwin needs to murder the woman Minsc is after. And in the second one he's basically like "oh. somebody is finally here to kill everybody around me. I'll join you and show you where the proof you need for a certain shadowy organization is located."

    Korgan asks you to come along to help with a group that wronged him as a mercenary and when you get to them you find out that it is actually his Previous party which he betrayed and now has gotten you to come along to help kill them. That should be as big of a red flag and a worry in any adventuring mind as the potential of being eaten by a vampire. The only thing I can think of that actually holds him back is he is secretly afraid of your being Bhaalspawn. Considering the game takes place in a time where revealed Bhaalspawn are showing a reputation for being increasingly badass people.

    Viconia is the only one that doesn't seem to pose an internal threat to the group. Though she will likely bring you increased external problems since she's a Drow.
    SomeSortButtercheesetbone1
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 362
    I don't hate Hexxat, but I'm not particularly fond of her either. My biggest annoyance would be that she tries to be cool at the expense of the player - and it's not a good thing in a game that is shameless power fantasy. Every other character cares and is interesting in our heritage, our mission, our growing power... but not Hexxat, she's too ql for that. She definitely has that kinda embarassing, mary-suish, fanfiction feel to her: "you know what? My OC is so awesome that she *doesn't care* who Voldemort is/what that mess with the Ring is about. Sick, right?".
    But whatever, most of evil characters in those games are tongue-in-cheek, so I can live with puny vampire who thinks she can *not* care about demigod. With only Dorn having actually evil questline in both games, I'd rather create my own evil party.
    There is different problem I have with Hexxat, that makes me see her as wasted potential. It's her vampirism. I'll let slide thing that maybe just my taste - because for me vampire ncps just scream edgyness, even more than with Dorn and his blackguard thing. Okay, let's roll with that. But can we not agree that vampires aren't the most uncommon creatures both in fiction and Baldur's Gate 2? We basically deal with them since Irenicus' dungeon, right until end of a game (the latest encounter I can remember right now is Saradush prison). So we are getting another blood drinking undead. It's... kind of cheap, if you ask me. She doesn't add anything insighful about vampires - and I don't blame her, since subject has been done to death... but instead of listening to "Interview with vampire" banters, I'd rather have female thief from Chult, that would talk to me about jungles in the far south and stuff. Not about "oh, being vampire is such a curse!". We know.
    Then we have ridiculous entrance she makes - this kind of entrance that basically makes impossible to roleplay her recruitment. She lures as into dangerous dungeon, lying about a treasure we don't have, and after we deal with traps, shade wolves and Dragomir... she murders our party member, drinks her blood and casually proposes alliance.
    Good and neutral characters will cut her down immediately, and bad characters... even quicker. She manipulated us into situation that could get us killed. To exist, she needs to drink blood... and she already showed how much respect for our lives she has. No other bad NPC is this much of flashing "DANGER!" sign, as Hexxat. So, no. Meet Dorn's abyssal blade, smug vampire. Well, if she was human thief, there would be no need for such introduction, and that could be different story, but we got what we got.
    And... Bodhi. Once again, from all evil characters, she seems to be gaining most in betraying us, while not losing much. You can say "but Edwin doesn't love us either! Why he wouldn't sell us out to Bodhi?". The thing with Edwin, and Korgan, and Viconia and (to some extent) Dorn is that they are meal for vampires. Hexxat isn't. Edwin might think that forging alliance with people who need human blood for survival isn't the best idea, but what is stopping Hexxat? She is practical, right? She cares for herself. So every respecting evil CHARNAME would kill her just to be sure.
    But, to be fair: evil CHARNAME would probably also strangle Edwin and keep Korgan on a leash. So, yeah. I recruited her twice, once "released" in ToB and once kept. I don't think she is overpowered (and it's a plus), because high stats are balanced with lack of kit.
    AttalusUnderstandMouseMagicNuinGrum
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