At this point my strong belief that no Charname would ever entertain having a vampire in party begins to crumble.
Problem is, Hexaat is no Spike and to make the character work, she has to be. Just as Edwin, Viconia, Kagain are written well enough that the "evil" can be overlooked. They failed with Dorn too in BG2.
You mean, after Spike went through that bit with The Initiative? When he couldn't bite anybody or be too violent or he would have a disabling headache? Sort of the pseudoscientific equivalent of a geas? I might give that a try, but I would really have to be certain about the geas. Like, I was never fully convinced of Sarevok's so-called geas because it was all according to him. If maybe Elminster told me of it... it would depend on the class the vamp was. A pure fighter, like Angel, not a thief.
At this point my strong belief that no Charname would ever entertain having a vampire in party begins to crumble.
Problem is, Hexaat is no Spike and to make the character work, she has to be. Just as Edwin, Viconia, Kagain are written well enough that the "evil" can be overlooked. They failed with Dorn too in BG2.
You mean, after Spike went through that bit with The Initiative? When he couldn't bite anybody or be too violent or he would have a disabling headache? Sort of the pseudoscientific equivalent of a geas? I might give that a try, but I would really have to be certain about the geas. Like, I was never fully convinced of Sarevok's so-called geas because it was all according to him. If maybe Elminster told me of it... it would depend on the class the vamp was. A pure fighter, like Angel, not a thief.
No, Spike the character.
There's a conversation with Spike when Angelus returns and he sides with Buffy to destroy him, series 2? He describes people/humans/mortals as "McDonalds happy meals walking around" so why would he want them destroyed, why would he even dislike them?
You can work with that, immoral though it maybe, if the character is attractive enough to get away with it.
And though it's shallow, charisma/looks/sex appeal/entertainment is the key. Hexaat lacks all that, so why would you put up with her?
Of course it's all balony, I said a while back, Spike was the one who really destroyed the vampire myth. He was stunning and made you laugh and.......... was a merciless killer. Well we all have our faults so that can be overlooked.............?
The "initiative" nonsense was created to deal with the character they created which made no sense whatsoever in the Buffy world but the public/viewers adored.
Hexxat is a full-blown Mary-Sue. Which is not surprising given that a self-proclaimed male feminist wrote the character.
This is an interesting claim. I was unaware that male feminists were more prone to creating poorly-written self-inserts.
My intuition might have run the opposite. The term Mary-Sue comes from the fan fiction community, (the Star Trek fanfic community, specifically). Fanfic skews overwhelmingly, (overwhelmingly!), female. So if Mary-Sues tended to be gendered thing, as a fan of Bayesian logic, my prior would be that they "belong" more to the female gender than the male.
(In the same way, I would assume that behaviors that were more common on Reddit than Pinterest were more "male" behaviors, while behaviors that were more common on Pinterest than Reddit were more "female" behaviors.)
And yet here you're specifically saying that the tendency to write Mary-Sues belongs more to the male gender, provided those males happen to be feminists. (It can't just be a feminist thing, or else the "male" modifier would have not only not added any clarifying information, it would have obfuscated clarifying information. In an attempt to be as generous to your point as possible, I'm assuming that all modifiers you used were actually relevant.)
Is it the fact that they're a feminist that makes them more prone? Or the fact that they're a male? Is this an intersectional issue, where males in general are not prone, and feminists in general are not prone, it's just the intersection of male and feminism that makes one prone?
And is the propensity towards self-inserts in general, to poor writing in general, or is it a specific blind spot that causes them to only poorly write their self-inserts while leaving all of their other writing unchanged?
And now it occurs to me that I might have missed the point entirely. Are you saying it's the self-proclaimed part that is the key? Are male feminists that don't admit to being male feminists better at characterization? And if so, how could we possibly know since by definition they're not admitting they're male feminists?
(I suppose one could compare self-admitted male feminists to all males who don't admit they're feminists under the assumption that the latter population must surely contain some male feminists who aren't self-professing. But thinking of the kinds of lurking variables that would incorporate gives me a little bit of indigestion.)
I said male feminist. Feminist is the key word here. When feminists write female characters, they almost always end up being a Mary-Sue. It happened with Star Wars as well. Kathleen Kennedy hired some feminists to "help with the script" for SW episode 7, because strong female characters = important. They are important, but like every other character they need to be believable. Rey (just using her as a general example here) had zero weaknesses and she was good at absolutely everything no explainable reason. She could fly the Falcon better than Han Solo could, despite telling Finn she had never flown a ship before. She also knew how the Falcon worked better than Han did. Later she learns to use the force right off the bat and masters the Mind Trick on her second try. It took Luke 6 years to learn that one and he had mentors. Finn was a trained soldier and he got destroyed by an injured Kylo Ren. Rey defeated him easily the first time she even used a lightsaber.
That is called a Mary-Sue, and Hexxat has a pile of Mary-Sue traits.
A fantastic example of a strong female character is Ripley from the alien movies. She struggles past her fears, accepts help and advice when she needs it. She pushes through and somehow manages to survive despite being so afraid she is crying and shaking from fear. She is arguably the strongest symbol of feminism in pop-culture so far. Because she is written well, and she isn't great at everything right off the bat because "we need more feminism in this". Character first. Then "political agenda". In that order. Switch them around and you just get a character written to fulfil some quota.
A fantastic example of a strong female character is Ripley from the alien movies. She struggles past her fears, accepts help and advice when she needs it. She pushes through and somehow manages to survive despite being so afraid she is crying and shaking from fear. She is arguably the strongest symbol of feminism in pop-culture so far. Because she is written well, and she isn't great at everything right off the bat because "we need more feminism in this". Character first. Then "political agenda". In that order. Switch them around and you just get a character written to fulfil some quota.
Agree. I think Ripley is a great, great character and Sigourney Weaver played her to perfection.
I assume that you dislike the fact that Luke was able to destroy Death Star via force with basically zero training as much as Rey's competence, @Rawgrim. And kid Anakin blowing up Federation ship annoys you as well. And 11-years old Harry Potter defeating Quirrell. And fat, lazy Hobbit surviving dangerous journey. It's almost as if epics require certain type of a character. Also I'm amazed how little you remember from the movie. Kylo Ren: a) got shot by Wookie crossbow b) had to wander in snow injured, looking for Finn and Rey c) got to fight Finn d) taunted him and got injured again e) had to fight Rey immediately afterwards f) had orders to bring her alive. But yeah, none of above matters. It's just those awful feminists and their Mary Sues! Not like well-rounded and not Chosen-Onish, not plot-armoured, not definitely not powerful without earning it Luke and Anakin.
Harry doesn't really win in a fair fight against any main villain for quite a while and has a prophecy on his side to boot. Hermione is a great example of a strong female character that isn't a Mary Sue. The most intelligent of the bunch, the most magically adept of the bunch, the most mature of the bunch, but isn't some swaggering example of perfection and comes with a variety of her own faults that make her entirely believable.
If you really get into star wars quite a bit of Rey's so called traits can actually be attributed to the force untrained.
If you go back to the original trilogy. Luke just has a knack for fixing machines. Gets on the MF and without much trouble at all fixes a problem that Han can't even find then without any real gunner training outshoots Han, not to mention makes a ridiculously hard shot to destroy the first death star, with no combat flight training, no computer assistance, and with a powerful force user on his tail for much of the engagement. Luke, A Male, isn't any more believable from your criteria than Rey is. yet there are characters like these two littered all over that particular IP and they are common place. Many of them in existence Long Before Rey ever came into existence at the hands of supposed feminist writers.
edit: Hermione is closer to a mary-sue in the books. Even with her supposed faults (part of which are arguably superficial) As she is the direct reason that Harry and his little merry band of cohorts survives or succeeds at all in books. Her only failing to it is that she's not the one in the "final showdowns" that make Harry the hero so to speak. It's basically her work and him taking the glory.
If you really get into star wars quite a bit of Rey's so called traits can actually be attributed to the force untrained.
If you go back to the original trilogy. Luke just has a knack for fixing machines. Gets on the MF and without much trouble at all fixes a problem that Han can't even find then without any real gunner training outshoots Han, not to mention makes a ridiculously hard shot to destroy the first death star, with no combat flight training, no computer assistance, and with a powerful force user on his tail for much of the engagement. Luke, A Male, isn't any more believable from your criteria than Rey is. yet there are characters like these two littered all over that particular IP and they are common place. Many of them in existence Long Before Rey ever came into existence at the hands of supposed feminist writers.
Male Mary Sues Men want to be like them. Women want to sleep with them.
Female Mary Sues are competition for men and women.
Just look at the way women are attacked everyday in the mainstream by other women. Not by men, by women.
You have no buyers. So what are you going to do when nobody wants to buy what you are selling?
I said male feminist. Feminist is the key word here.
If "feminist" is the key word, then why did you lead with "self-proclaimed" and "male" as if they somehow carried any relevance? You might as well have written "it's not surprising that Hexxat is a Mary-Sue given that a tall red-haired feminist wrote the character."
Male Mary Sues Men want to be like them. Women want to sleep with them.
Female Mary Sues are competition for men and women.
Heh. I have been gone from the commentariat for some time, so, enlighten me: The NPC in KotOR2 that I am fondest of (I have a colored pencil sketch of her on D'uxun hanging on my studio wall) is Brianna the Handmaiden. Once you 'Jedify' her and get her a lightsaber, she is the most powerful NPC in the game. I didn't realize how powerful 'til I had to split the party on that silly twin mission, and I put that weird girl Jedi- Koveras was it? - in charge of Group B. They failed miserably at their task. Three times. So then I fell back, put Brianna in charge, with no other change, and it was no sweat. She is dynamite. So, is she a Mary Sue? I sure liked (and like) her. I sure wasn't in competition with her. If I was not in a committed relationship, I would certainly want to date her. My two sons felt the same. Comments?
Harry doesn't really win in a fair fight against any main villain for quite a while
Just like Rey. She defeated Kylo Ren when he had like 5 hp, self-imposed penalty to thaco, and to ac because of injuries. It's like saying that CHARNAME is a Mary Sue, because he defeated Irenicus in Spellhold. I mean - well, he/she is, but that's not the reason.
Harry doesn't really win in a fair fight against any main villain for quite a while
Just like Rey. She defeated Kylo Ren when he had like 5 hp, self-imposed penalty to thaco, and to ac because of injuries. It's like saying that CHARNAME is a Mary Sue, because he defeated Irenicus in Spellhold. I mean - well, he/she is, but that's not the reason.
Kylo Ren isn't really Vader either anyway, he's the insecure wannabe Vader who constantly fears his own weakness to the light. And his training apparently isn't even complete. Vader was already a veteran in A new hope.
That they made Lukes lightsaber into almost a magical artifact with visions is a little silly though.. imo
As for Star wars characters with sue-ish traits..What about everyones golden boy Revan? Although his personality is fairly undefined in the first two games.
Male Mary Sues Men want to be like them. Women want to sleep with them.
Female Mary Sues are competition for men and women.
Heh. I have been gone from the commentariat for some time, so, enlighten me: The NPC in KotOR2 that I am fondest of (I have a colored pencil sketch of her on D'uxun hanging on my studio wall) is Brianna the Handmaiden. Once you 'Jedify' her and get her a lightsaber, she is the most powerful NPC in the game. I didn't realize how powerful 'til I had to split the party on that silly twin mission, and I put that weird girl Jedi- Koveras was it? - in charge of Group B. They failed miserably at their task. Three times. So then I fell back, put Brianna in charge, with no other change, and it was no sweat. She is dynamite. So, is she a Mary Sue? I sure liked (and like) her. I sure wasn't in competition with her. If I was not in a committed relationship, I would certainly want to date her. My two sons felt the same. Comments?
Handmaiden is definitely beast-mode combat wise. Even better than Hanharr. Jedi monks are fun. But blind Sith girl is best waifu (forget her name)
Male Mary Sues Men want to be like them. Women want to sleep with them.
Unless you're Wesley Crusher, Mary-Sue Extraordinaire. Then everyone hates you equally.
For Mouse Magic. Wasn't aware I was selling anything. And I know plenty of men and women where that isn't true. And it's actually the reverse where both hate a male mary-sue. And they feel more rivalry/want to sleep with/want to be the female.
As for Wesley. he was just the first signs of Wil Wheaton's curse by rolling critical fail after critical fail on his charisma checks.
You mean, after Spike went through that bit with The Initiative? When he couldn't bite anybody or be too violent or he would have a disabling headache? Sort of the pseudoscientific equivalent of a geas? I might give that a try, but I would really have to be certain about the geas. Like, I was never fully convinced of Sarevok's so-called geas because it was all according to him. If maybe Elminster told me of it... it would depend on the class the vamp was. A pure fighter, like Angel, not a thief.
Heh, funny you mention that. I had a guy play a demon in one of my games who was under a Geas that allowed him only to attack Evil aligned characters/monsters or he'd suffer excruciating pain. He was in a semi-humanoid form (tiefling appearance). He got the idea from Spike. Great character, lots of funny moments.
I assume that you dislike the fact that Luke was able to destroy Death Star via force with basically zero training as much as Rey's competence, @Rawgrim. And kid Anakin blowing up Federation ship annoys you as well. And 11-years old Harry Potter defeating Quirrell. And fat, lazy Hobbit surviving dangerous journey. It's almost as if epics require certain type of a character. Also I'm amazed how little you remember from the movie. Kylo Ren: a) got shot by Wookie crossbow b) had to wander in snow injured, looking for Finn and Rey c) got to fight Finn d) taunted him and got injured again e) had to fight Rey immediately afterwards f) had orders to bring her alive. But yeah, none of above matters. It's just those awful feminists and their Mary Sues! Not like well-rounded and not Chosen-Onish, not plot-armoured, not definitely not powerful without earning it Luke and Anakin.
Anakin in episode 1 was a Mary-Sue as well. Harry Potter defeated Quirrell? No he didn't. He "won" because of a charm his mother had cast on him. And Frodo actually failed. He had zero special powers or anything like it. It was actually Gollum that destroyed the ring, not Frodo. Frodo had to get rescued by Sam, Gandalf, Aragorn, the Eagles and others all through the story. That isn't a Mary-Sue, is it?
a) Yes he was shot. Still had no problems defeating Finn - a trained soldier, despite of it. b) Still defeated Finn easily despite having walked through the snow. c) yes he did. And won easily. d) Yes he was toying with it and got a very minor scratch before finishing Finn off. e) Yes. A girl that had never used a lightsaber before. She mastered it during the fight vs him for no good reason. f) Yes. Alive but not unharmed.
Luke got saved time and time again through the OT. He got his ass handed to him by a tusken raider, Vader, and others. Got saved by Kenobi, Han (twice), Wedge, and Vader in the end.
Anakin got beaten all over the place as well. He was a very flawed character. Look what happened when he attacked Dooku - who was a powerful jedi before he turned sith. Dooku chopped his arm off in seconds.
Harry doesn't really win in a fair fight against any main villain for quite a while
Just like Rey. She defeated Kylo Ren when he had like 5 hp, self-imposed penalty to thaco, and to ac because of injuries. It's like saying that CHARNAME is a Mary Sue, because he defeated Irenicus in Spellhold. I mean - well, he/she is, but that's not the reason.
Rey learned to move objects with the force right off the bat before that fight. And for some reason she gained fighting skills with a weapon she had never used as well.
I did. I remember, for an instance, how powerful Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi was simply eliminated from the fight by two "minor scratches" in fight with Dooku. He didn't have to get shot by Wookie. He didn't have to walk around in freezing cold. Apparently, those "very minor scratches" hurt pretty badly a guy good enough to be given title of Jedi Master. I remember how Rey was kidnapped by Kylo Ren, and when he was in full strength, he could kill her thousand times and had no problems with taking her. Btw, according to historical fencing instructor (link) it's perfectly reasonable for Rey to defeat him, especially given that she has combat training. You are either blinded by nostalgia to deny such trivial fact that Star Wars main heroes are Mary Sues in general, or simply want to hate Rey for some reason.
Btw, I like how unfairly you compare Rey from 1 movie to Luke and Anakin from trilogies. You really want to hate her, don't you?
According to the definition given in the Fanlore Wiki a character may be judged Mary Sue if she is competent in too many areas, is physically attractive, and/or is viewed as admirable by other sympathetic characters. And "Mary Sue" is an extremely subjective value judgement.
Hexxat is maybe competent in some (but not many) areas, and only when its dark or indoors. Not very mary sue-ish in my book.
Every CHARNAME with 90+ attribute points should be considered a mary sue/gary stu character. And I played many.
According to the definition given in the Fanlore Wiki a character may be judged Mary Sue if she is competent in too many areas, is physically attractive, and/or is viewed as admirable by other sympathetic characters. And "Mary Sue" is an extremely subjective value judgement.
Hexxat is maybe competent in some (but not many) areas, and only when its dark or indoors. Not very mary sue-ish in my book.
Every CHARNAME with 90+ attribute points should be considered a mary sue/gary stu character. And I played many.
I consider my current orc this way certainly. I may play with a party of 6 but most of them are there to either do traps or provide backup in tactical situations. my Fighter Orc does the majority of the damage. And with several scores at 18 or higher it's a good label.
According to the definition given in the Fanlore Wiki a character may be judged Mary Sue if she is competent in too many areas, is physically attractive, and/or is viewed as admirable by other sympathetic characters. And "Mary Sue" is an extremely subjective value judgement.
Hexxat is maybe competent in some (but not many) areas, and only when its dark or indoors. Not very mary sue-ish in my book.
In gameplay she is not -- I argued about this enough in previous posts. But the way she is written definitely hits a lot of points on the common Mary Sue traits list.
- When you first meet her she's supremely confident and self-assured. She refers to herself as the reward for your work and is quick to threaten you if you don't do what she asks, like give her the cloak. At this point of the quest you have no idea the cloak is worthless, it's like the only real loot you found. And she wants it too. In order to even get Hexxat in your party you have to do everything she asks without really knowing why and refusal ends in violence (with a pre-battle boast full of badass confidence).
- She's considered very attractive by the characters who can get past her vampirism (the evil ones). Edwin is clearly taken with her and so is Korgan. The main character (either in journal or in dialogue) is also quick to refer to her as "mysterious" or "exotic".
- Her conversations with good characters paint her as sympathetic by making them extremely hostile to her, sometimes without provocation. Even someone like Aerie, who isn't confrontational at all and breaks during her altercations with Korgan WILL give the first blow when Hexxat is concerned, while the latter is just apologetic.
- She constantly has the last word in arguments. Dialogue options allowing you to side against her makes you sound like an ass.
- She's "too good for you" in that you will lose her permanently if you don't practically beg her to stay (with Charisma check to boot) at the end of her ToB quest.
- She is related to one of the most powerful beings in the Forgotten Realms setting.
I did. I remember, for an instance, how powerful Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi was simply eliminated from the fight by two "minor scratches" in fight with Dooku. He didn't have to get shot by Wookie. He didn't have to walk around in freezing cold. Apparently, those "very minor scratches" hurt pretty badly a guy good enough to be given title of Jedi Master. I remember how Rey was kidnapped by Kylo Ren, and when he was in full strength, he could kill her thousand times and had no problems with taking her. Btw, according to historical fencing instructor (link) it's perfectly reasonable for Rey to defeat him, especially given that she has combat training. You are either blinded by nostalgia to deny such trivial fact that Star Wars main heroes are Mary Sues in general, or simply want to hate Rey for some reason.
Btw, I like how unfairly you compare Rey from 1 movie to Luke and Anakin from trilogies. You really want to hate her, don't you?
Dooku was a SITH LORD. He is also described as the most deadly duelist with a lightsaber (yes. That is canon) Kylo Ren, however, is NOT a sith lord. He is a a regular jedi apprantice that fell to the dark side.
That freezing cold as you describe it wasn't THAT cold. Rey had no problems with the cold and she had a lot thinner clothes on.
Yes. Kylo captured Rey by using a force move on her. He has had many years to learn it. Rey learns to use the force in seconds, with no training. Kylo was trained by Luke and then Snoke.
Luke is a Mary-Sue? Really? Gets beaten by tusken raiders. Gets saved by Kenobi. Gets saved by Kenobi at the cantina as well. Then he gets caught by the dianoga, and only escapes because it lets go. Pure luck. He then needs saving 2 times during the Death Star battle.
Episode V. Gets captured by a Wampa and needs to be saved by Solo. Gets shot down during the Hoth battle and has to escape. He then crashlands on Dagobah (a mary sue would have made a perfect landing). He fails his test in the cave. He fails when he tries to lift the X-Wing out of the swamp. And he gets completely owned by Vader at Cloud City. He fails throughout the whole movie. How is that a Mary-Sue character?
Episode 6. Messes up at Jabba's palace and gets tossed into the pit with the rancor. He kills the rancor but only by being smart. He doesn't use any "superpowers". He loses vs Vader and the emperor, but Vader turns to the light side and saves him - yet another saving.
You don't know what a Mary-Sue is, do you?
You were the one that brought up Luke and Anakin, not I. But yes. Luke and Anakin fails over and over again in the movies they are in. Rey has been in one movie and she has mastered flying a space ship despite saying she has never flown before. She mastered the lightsaber as soon as she youched it. And she learned to use the force without having anyone to tell her what the force could even do.
See the difference? That is not being blinded by nostalgia. That is just facts. Not a fan of those, are you?
Dooku was a SITH LORD. He is also described as the most deadly duelist with a lightsaber (yes. That is canon) Kylo Ren, however, is NOT a sith lord. He is a a regular jedi apprantice that fell to the dark side. (...) Yes. Kylo captured Rey by using a force move on her. He has had many years to learn it. Rey learns to use the force in seconds, with no training. Kylo was trained by Luke and then Snoke.
So Kylo Ren is experienced Force user and regular apprentice at the same time, I guess. Whatever will support your claim how Rey is awful and other characters are cool, eh? Tell me again, what's so shocking that Rey was able to defeat regular apprentice suffering from many wounds? How is that Mary-Suish? It's nice that you admit that Rey actually was defeated by Kylo Ren (and with no trouble). Once again - so why is she Mary Sue? Just because she learned mind trick? Destroying federation flagship and disabling entire droid army, building robot while being ten and being freaking son of the Force itself kinda outweighs that. So either say that Star Wars protagonists are over-the-top, or treat Rey just like other characters, instead of coming up with ridiculous, artificial reasons to hate her. Or just say that you don't like her. It's okay. Pretending that she somewhat doesn't fit the formula is embarrasingly stupid. Btw, you are ignoring a fact that Kylo Ren allowed Rey to probe his brain, so she had a chance to learn some things about Force. But I guess you skipped that part, since you are so adamant on hating her.
Episode V.
Irrelevant, given we don't know what will happen with Rey in next episode.
Episode 6.
Irrelevant, given we don't know what will happen with Rey in next episode.
You were the one that brought up Luke and Anakin, not I.
I brought up their first movies.
But yes. Luke and Anakin fails over and over again in the movies they are in.
Just like Rey. You admitted that yourself.
Rey has been in one movie and she has mastered flying a space ship despite saying she has never flown before.
Just like Luke managed to destroy Death Star while being a farm boy whose only combat experience was shooting to rats. Like Anakin, 10 YEARS OLD KID, managed to destroy flagship of federation. Unlike them, Rey, as scavenger, at least had to have some knowledge about how starships work.
She mastered the lightsaber as soon as she youched it.
Yeah, because her clumsy thrust are now "mastering the lightsaber". You will simply say anything that will support that ridiculous "Rey is Mary Sue SJW feminist propaganda!" agenda.
And she learned to use the force without having anyone to tell her what the force could even do.
Yeah, because it's not like Star Wars has little kids who win deadly races with experienced adults. Or village boys being able to hold againt trained Empire soldiers with a gun. No, that never happened in Star Wars. It was always about hard work and experience, and that's why you don't have Chosen Ones and prophecies in those movies. Also - probing Kylo's brain. Watch a movie.
See the difference? That is not being blinded by nostalgia.
Sure. :-)
That is just facts. Not a fan of those, are you?
That's pretty... bold statement. xD I find it totally hilarious how the most obvious example of "your power is in your heart" kind of movie suddenly gets treated as serious piece about training, commitment and plausible outcomes. Yeah, sure. If that was the case, Kenobi would die on Naboo.
That freezing cold as you describe it wasn't THAT cold. Rey had no problems with the cold and she had a lot thinner clothes on.
...but the cold makes injuries flare up. You do know that, don't you? Yep. You want to hate her.
To compare Luke in "A New Hope" to Rey in "Episode 7" is absurd.
At the time the films came out Luke was considered a Doofus and it was Han Solo who was the cool one.
As I have always been a Luke fan, it's kind of nice nowadays that Luke gets some praise whereas at the time, there were very few fighting Luke's corner for being anything other than an idiot. Children yes, they liked Luke, but young adults, no way, everything in ANH got raved over except for Luke.
I liked the new film when I saw it at the cinema, but it doesn't stand up to repeated viewings. The whole Rey part is ridiculous and starts to grate, you start wondering why anybody else bothers getting out of bed in the morning.
A New Hope, saw it at least 15 times at the cinema alone at the time, screenings of the whole triology, and then I had children. So yay, more excuses to watch Star Wars.
Luke's failure's only come when it serves to advance story plot or aren't the losses they seem to be. Anakin is even worse and does things that not even other jedi can pull off and his very very very few failures are all scripted to show his darkside descent. not actually be failings of his character. It's all plot setup.
I was gonna say a lot more about how it's not but I realized this just isn't really the place for it or worth that kind of effort at this moment. not to mention others well covered some of the base points that I was going to cover myself.
I don't think there is any Star Wars Protagonist that stands up to time besides Han. And he was written as more of an Anti-Hero. And a good one at that. Though it still stands that every lead protagonist seems to be the thing to hate when the movies come out.
Every CHARNAME with 90+ attribute points should be considered a mary sue/gary stu character. And I played many.
Before, or after BG tomes?
I know of 23 NPCs with 90 or higher attribute totals. All are mod NPCs, except Sarevok and Dorn. Most happen to be naturally OP ones such as famously FR canon NPCs such as Drizzt and company, Artemis Entreri, and Jarlaxle, but also the Bodhi and Irenicus mod NPCs. Aside from all those, there is Sandra, Chloe, Leina, Therrin, Ajantis, Saerileth, Adario, Mordragon, Neh'taniel, Saradas, Sirene, and Tsujatha. 6 of those 12 are Paladins. Highest non-paladin, non-famous mod NPC is...Chloe, at 92.
Every CHARNAME with 90+ attribute points should be considered a mary sue/gary stu character. And I played many.
Before, or after BG tomes?
I know of 23 NPCs with 90 or higher attribute totals. All are mod NPCs, except Sarevok and Dorn. Most happen to be naturally OP ones such as famously FR canon NPCs such as Drizzt and company, Artemis Entreri, and Jarlaxle, but also the Bodhi and Irenicus mod NPCs. Aside from all those, there is Sandra, Chloe, Leina, Therrin, Ajantis, Saerileth, Adario, Mordragon, Neh'taniel, Saradas, Sirene, and Tsujatha. 6 of those 12 are Paladins. Highest non-paladin, non-famous mod NPC is...Chloe, at 92.
Also, "Mary-Sue" doesn't imply powerful, it implies unreasonably powerful. (And a host of other things, too.) Thor, Hulk, and Vision are crazy powerful. But they're not Mary-Sues, they're a God, an unkillable radiation monster, and a computer with an Infinity Stone embedded in its head. Their power level is perfectly reasonable for what they are.
Wesley Crusher, on the other hand, is a total Mary-Sue, despite the fact that Thor could kill him with his pinky. Because he's a kid who wasn't even good enough to get into the Starfleet Academy, and he's traveling on a ship with some of the best and most experienced officers in Earth's history, and yet somehow time after time it's Crusher who is swooping in and saving the day. That's not the slightest bit reasonable.
Is it unreasonable for Charname to have a 92 in stats? Nah. Keldorn has an 89, Jahiera and Yoshimo both have 88s. And Jahiera, Yoshimo, and Keldorn are just random humans / half-elves with normal parents, while you're literally the son or daughter of a god.
The closest analog we have to you is Sarevok, and that dude is rocking a 95 with 18/00 strength to boot!
(I'm open to suggestions that Edwin is a Mary-Sue, though. Mechanically, not based on his writing.)
(I'm open to suggestions that Edwin is a Mary-Sue, though. Mechanically, not based on his writing.)
Hmm. Well I really like Edwin, but I think the case can be made that yeah, he's a Mary Sue mechanically. That amulet makes him stupid powerful. There's almost NO practical reason not to bring him along as your mage or backup mage (if main is a sorcerer). I don't always because my groups are not always practical, but it does seem like I need two other mages (nalia and imoen) to make ONE Edwin.
And hey, I get that he's the only single class wizard in the vanilla game and that everyone else has the benefit of multi or dual class, but perhaps only +1 bonus spell? +2 just makes it way overboard and makes Neera a laughable character. (Oh, you get 2 less spells per level and might randomly kill us all?)
The excuse for all this is he's Thayan. Well yeah Thayans got more spells in PNP but they also gave up access to more schools. There is NO downside to Edwin compared to another Conjurer. Even his stats are pretty darn good.
That said, I still like Edwin, even though I am a worthless simian Neanderthal to him.
In no concievable universe could Edwin be called a "Mary Sue". If anything the character mechanically should be better.
It makes sense in the context of the game that a RWofT should be far better at slinging spellls than anybody else you meet. Thay is a society based on magic, it maintains order based on magic, it exerts influence based on magic. Trained Thay mages are going to knock seven bells out of anybody who hasn't had that level of training. Because if a society is based on having efficient magic users and if they weren't turning out good magic users, the society would fail. Nobody would have heard of the place. The "amulet" IMO is unecessary, the advantages should be inherent from being a RWofT.
And that's backed up in game when Degarden turns up and simply dispells a Nether Scroll "curse" in comparison to Thallyntyre (sp) who can't easily and sometimes fails completely.
Comments
There's a conversation with Spike when Angelus returns and he sides with Buffy to destroy him, series 2?
He describes people/humans/mortals as "McDonalds happy meals walking around" so why would he want them destroyed, why would he even dislike them?
You can work with that, immoral though it maybe, if the character is attractive enough to get away with it.
And though it's shallow, charisma/looks/sex appeal/entertainment is the key.
Hexaat lacks all that, so why would you put up with her?
Of course it's all balony, I said a while back, Spike was the one who really destroyed the vampire myth.
He was stunning and made you laugh and.......... was a merciless killer.
Well we all have our faults so that can be overlooked.............?
The "initiative" nonsense was created to deal with the character they created which made no sense whatsoever in the Buffy world but the public/viewers adored.
That is called a Mary-Sue, and Hexxat has a pile of Mary-Sue traits.
A fantastic example of a strong female character is Ripley from the alien movies. She struggles past her fears, accepts help and advice when she needs it. She pushes through and somehow manages to survive despite being so afraid she is crying and shaking from fear. She is arguably the strongest symbol of feminism in pop-culture so far. Because she is written well, and she isn't great at everything right off the bat because "we need more feminism in this". Character first. Then "political agenda". In that order. Switch them around and you just get a character written to fulfil some quota.
Agree. I think Ripley is a great, great character and Sigourney Weaver played her to perfection.
It's almost as if epics require certain type of a character.
Also I'm amazed how little you remember from the movie. Kylo Ren:
a) got shot by Wookie crossbow
b) had to wander in snow injured, looking for Finn and Rey
c) got to fight Finn
d) taunted him and got injured again
e) had to fight Rey immediately afterwards
f) had orders to bring her alive.
But yeah, none of above matters. It's just those awful feminists and their Mary Sues! Not like well-rounded and not Chosen-Onish, not plot-armoured, not definitely not powerful without earning it Luke and Anakin.
If you go back to the original trilogy. Luke just has a knack for fixing machines. Gets on the MF and without much trouble at all fixes a problem that Han can't even find then without any real gunner training outshoots Han, not to mention makes a ridiculously hard shot to destroy the first death star, with no combat flight training, no computer assistance, and with a powerful force user on his tail for much of the engagement. Luke, A Male, isn't any more believable from your criteria than Rey is. yet there are characters like these two littered all over that particular IP and they are common place. Many of them in existence Long Before Rey ever came into existence at the hands of supposed feminist writers.
edit: Hermione is closer to a mary-sue in the books. Even with her supposed faults (part of which are arguably superficial) As she is the direct reason that Harry and his little merry band of cohorts survives or succeeds at all in books. Her only failing to it is that she's not the one in the "final showdowns" that make Harry the hero so to speak. It's basically her work and him taking the glory.
Male Mary Sues
Men want to be like them.
Women want to sleep with them.
Female Mary Sues are competition for men and women.
Just look at the way women are attacked everyday in the mainstream by other women. Not by men, by women.
You have no buyers.
So what are you going to do when nobody wants to buy what you are selling?
Just like Rey. She defeated Kylo Ren when he had like 5 hp, self-imposed penalty to thaco, and to ac because of injuries. It's like saying that CHARNAME is a Mary Sue, because he defeated Irenicus in Spellhold.
I mean - well, he/she is, but that's not the reason.
That they made Lukes lightsaber into almost a magical artifact with visions is a little silly though.. imo
As for Star wars characters with sue-ish traits..What about everyones golden boy Revan? Although his personality is fairly undefined in the first two games.
As for Wesley. he was just the first signs of Wil Wheaton's curse by rolling critical fail after critical fail on his charisma checks.
a) Yes he was shot. Still had no problems defeating Finn - a trained soldier, despite of it.
b) Still defeated Finn easily despite having walked through the snow.
c) yes he did. And won easily.
d) Yes he was toying with it and got a very minor scratch before finishing Finn off.
e) Yes. A girl that had never used a lightsaber before. She mastered it during the fight vs him for no good reason.
f) Yes. Alive but not unharmed.
Luke got saved time and time again through the OT. He got his ass handed to him by a tusken raider, Vader, and others. Got saved by Kenobi, Han (twice), Wedge, and Vader in the end.
Anakin got beaten all over the place as well. He was a very flawed character. Look what happened when he attacked Dooku - who was a powerful jedi before he turned sith. Dooku chopped his arm off in seconds.
Did you even watch the movies?
I did. I remember, for an instance, how powerful Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi was simply eliminated from the fight by two "minor scratches" in fight with Dooku. He didn't have to get shot by Wookie. He didn't have to walk around in freezing cold. Apparently, those "very minor scratches" hurt pretty badly a guy good enough to be given title of Jedi Master.
I remember how Rey was kidnapped by Kylo Ren, and when he was in full strength, he could kill her thousand times and had no problems with taking her.
Btw, according to historical fencing instructor (link) it's perfectly reasonable for Rey to defeat him, especially given that she has combat training.
You are either blinded by nostalgia to deny such trivial fact that Star Wars main heroes are Mary Sues in general, or simply want to hate Rey for some reason.
Btw, I like how unfairly you compare Rey from 1 movie to Luke and Anakin from trilogies. You really want to hate her, don't you?
Hexxat is maybe competent in some (but not many) areas, and only when its dark or indoors. Not very mary sue-ish in my book.
Every CHARNAME with 90+ attribute points should be considered a mary sue/gary stu character. And I played many.
- When you first meet her she's supremely confident and self-assured. She refers to herself as the reward for your work and is quick to threaten you if you don't do what she asks, like give her the cloak. At this point of the quest you have no idea the cloak is worthless, it's like the only real loot you found. And she wants it too. In order to even get Hexxat in your party you have to do everything she asks without really knowing why and refusal ends in violence (with a pre-battle boast full of badass confidence).
- She's considered very attractive by the characters who can get past her vampirism (the evil ones). Edwin is clearly taken with her and so is Korgan. The main character (either in journal or in dialogue) is also quick to refer to her as "mysterious" or "exotic".
- Her conversations with good characters paint her as sympathetic by making them extremely hostile to her, sometimes without provocation. Even someone like Aerie, who isn't confrontational at all and breaks during her altercations with Korgan WILL give the first blow when Hexxat is concerned, while the latter is just apologetic.
- She constantly has the last word in arguments. Dialogue options allowing you to side against her makes you sound like an ass.
- She's "too good for you" in that you will lose her permanently if you don't practically beg her to stay (with Charisma check to boot) at the end of her ToB quest.
- She is related to one of the most powerful beings in the Forgotten Realms setting.
And that's just on top of my head.
That freezing cold as you describe it wasn't THAT cold. Rey had no problems with the cold and she had a lot thinner clothes on.
Yes. Kylo captured Rey by using a force move on her. He has had many years to learn it. Rey learns to use the force in seconds, with no training. Kylo was trained by Luke and then Snoke.
Luke is a Mary-Sue? Really? Gets beaten by tusken raiders. Gets saved by Kenobi. Gets saved by Kenobi at the cantina as well. Then he gets caught by the dianoga, and only escapes because it lets go. Pure luck. He then needs saving 2 times during the Death Star battle.
Episode V. Gets captured by a Wampa and needs to be saved by Solo. Gets shot down during the Hoth battle and has to escape. He then crashlands on Dagobah (a mary sue would have made a perfect landing). He fails his test in the cave. He fails when he tries to lift the X-Wing out of the swamp. And he gets completely owned by Vader at Cloud City. He fails throughout the whole movie. How is that a Mary-Sue character?
Episode 6. Messes up at Jabba's palace and gets tossed into the pit with the rancor. He kills the rancor but only by being smart. He doesn't use any "superpowers". He loses vs Vader and the emperor, but Vader turns to the light side and saves him - yet another saving.
You don't know what a Mary-Sue is, do you?
You were the one that brought up Luke and Anakin, not I. But yes. Luke and Anakin fails over and over again in the movies they are in. Rey has been in one movie and she has mastered flying a space ship despite saying she has never flown before. She mastered the lightsaber as soon as she youched it. And she learned to use the force without having anyone to tell her what the force could even do.
See the difference? That is not being blinded by nostalgia. That is just facts. Not a fan of those, are you?
(...)
Yes. Kylo captured Rey by using a force move on her. He has had many years to learn it. Rey learns to use the force in seconds, with no training. Kylo was trained by Luke and then Snoke.
So Kylo Ren is experienced Force user and regular apprentice at the same time, I guess. Whatever will support your claim how Rey is awful and other characters are cool, eh?
Tell me again, what's so shocking that Rey was able to defeat regular apprentice suffering from many wounds? How is that Mary-Suish?
It's nice that you admit that Rey actually was defeated by Kylo Ren (and with no trouble). Once again - so why is she Mary Sue? Just because she learned mind trick? Destroying federation flagship and disabling entire droid army, building robot while being ten and being freaking son of the Force itself kinda outweighs that. So either say that Star Wars protagonists are over-the-top, or treat Rey just like other characters, instead of coming up with ridiculous, artificial reasons to hate her.
Or just say that you don't like her. It's okay. Pretending that she somewhat doesn't fit the formula is embarrasingly stupid.
Btw, you are ignoring a fact that Kylo Ren allowed Rey to probe his brain, so she had a chance to learn some things about Force. But I guess you skipped that part, since you are so adamant on hating her.
Irrelevant, given we don't know what will happen with Rey in next episode.
Irrelevant, given we don't know what will happen with Rey in next episode.
I brought up their first movies.
Just like Rey. You admitted that yourself.
Just like Luke managed to destroy Death Star while being a farm boy whose only combat experience was shooting to rats. Like Anakin, 10 YEARS OLD KID, managed to destroy flagship of federation. Unlike them, Rey, as scavenger, at least had to have some knowledge about how starships work.
Yeah, because her clumsy thrust are now "mastering the lightsaber". You will simply say anything that will support that ridiculous "Rey is Mary Sue SJW feminist propaganda!" agenda.
Yeah, because it's not like Star Wars has little kids who win deadly races with experienced adults. Or village boys being able to hold againt trained Empire soldiers with a gun. No, that never happened in Star Wars. It was always about hard work and experience, and that's why you don't have Chosen Ones and prophecies in those movies. Also - probing Kylo's brain. Watch a movie.
Sure. :-)
That's pretty... bold statement. xD
I find it totally hilarious how the most obvious example of "your power is in your heart" kind of movie suddenly gets treated as serious piece about training, commitment and plausible outcomes. Yeah, sure. If that was the case, Kenobi would die on Naboo.
...but the cold makes injuries flare up. You do know that, don't you?
Yep. You want to hate her.
At the time the films came out Luke was considered a Doofus and it was Han Solo who was the cool one.
As I have always been a Luke fan, it's kind of nice nowadays that Luke gets some praise whereas at the time, there were very few fighting Luke's corner for being anything other than an idiot.
Children yes, they liked Luke, but young adults, no way, everything in ANH got raved over except for Luke.
I liked the new film when I saw it at the cinema, but it doesn't stand up to repeated viewings. The whole Rey part is ridiculous and starts to grate, you start wondering why anybody else bothers getting out of bed in the morning.
A New Hope, saw it at least 15 times at the cinema alone at the time, screenings of the whole triology, and then I had children. So yay, more excuses to watch Star Wars.
I was gonna say a lot more about how it's not but I realized this just isn't really the place for it or worth that kind of effort at this moment. not to mention others well covered some of the base points that I was going to cover myself.
I don't think there is any Star Wars Protagonist that stands up to time besides Han. And he was written as more of an Anti-Hero. And a good one at that. Though it still stands that every lead protagonist seems to be the thing to hate when the movies come out.
I know of 23 NPCs with 90 or higher attribute totals. All are mod NPCs, except Sarevok and Dorn. Most happen to be naturally OP ones such as famously FR canon NPCs such as Drizzt and company, Artemis Entreri, and Jarlaxle, but also the Bodhi and Irenicus mod NPCs. Aside from all those, there is Sandra, Chloe, Leina, Therrin, Ajantis, Saerileth, Adario, Mordragon, Neh'taniel, Saradas, Sirene, and Tsujatha. 6 of those 12 are Paladins. Highest non-paladin, non-famous mod NPC is...Chloe, at 92.
Wesley Crusher, on the other hand, is a total Mary-Sue, despite the fact that Thor could kill him with his pinky. Because he's a kid who wasn't even good enough to get into the Starfleet Academy, and he's traveling on a ship with some of the best and most experienced officers in Earth's history, and yet somehow time after time it's Crusher who is swooping in and saving the day. That's not the slightest bit reasonable.
Is it unreasonable for Charname to have a 92 in stats? Nah. Keldorn has an 89, Jahiera and Yoshimo both have 88s. And Jahiera, Yoshimo, and Keldorn are just random humans / half-elves with normal parents, while you're literally the son or daughter of a god.
The closest analog we have to you is Sarevok, and that dude is rocking a 95 with 18/00 strength to boot!
(I'm open to suggestions that Edwin is a Mary-Sue, though. Mechanically, not based on his writing.)
And hey, I get that he's the only single class wizard in the vanilla game and that everyone else has the benefit of multi or dual class, but perhaps only +1 bonus spell? +2 just makes it way overboard and makes Neera a laughable character. (Oh, you get 2 less spells per level and might randomly kill us all?)
The excuse for all this is he's Thayan. Well yeah Thayans got more spells in PNP but they also gave up access to more schools. There is NO downside to Edwin compared to another Conjurer. Even his stats are pretty darn good.
That said, I still like Edwin, even though I am a worthless simian Neanderthal to him.
In no concievable universe could Edwin be called a "Mary Sue".
If anything the character mechanically should be better.
It makes sense in the context of the game that a RWofT should be far better at slinging spellls than anybody else you meet. Thay is a society based on magic, it maintains order based on magic, it exerts influence based on magic.
Trained Thay mages are going to knock seven bells out of anybody who hasn't had that level of training. Because if a society is based on having efficient magic users and if they weren't turning out good magic users, the society would fail.
Nobody would have heard of the place.
The "amulet" IMO is unecessary, the advantages should be inherent from being a RWofT.
And that's backed up in game when Degarden turns up and simply dispells a Nether Scroll "curse" in comparison to Thallyntyre (sp) who can't easily and sometimes fails completely.