God I hate Hexxat (rant)

Grum

While waiting for Siege of Dragonspear, I started yet another run. This time an elven fighter/thief who starts off chaotic neutral and who ends up neutral evil after the helltrials. Got her through BG1, started BG2. I planned to have her take an evil party (as I very rarely do anything evil) and planned to see the Hexxat romance, because the only other time I took Hexxat I learned nothing about her.

Already she is making me angry. Ok, I solo her initial tomb. I say solo because Clara can't do much. That's fine. Hexxat murders Clara. Alright, I'll let that slide. She promised me treasure and selling the +2 dagger didn't even cover the expedition costs.

But then I get the cloak. Hexxat demands it back and...she still talks down to me? She gives me next to no information for it, doesn't pay me for it, and if I give it to her she then makes another demand of me. Just RPing it through the first time led to me killing her by demanding information/not kissing her ass. Had to reload and pick the 'right' way to get her into my party.

And she isn't even mechanically anything useful to have. Sure, she can't die...but she dies so fast that she isn't worth being a tank. Sure, she has Str20, but as a single class thief she can't even backstab for much damage and dies soon afterwords. Sure, she has Dex20, but that isn't even +1 AC. Right now she's shooting a shortbow in such a way that if she had a Mr. Meeseeks, she'd end up with a stake through her heart.

I'm trying to force myself to not just leave her out in the sun to replace her with someone halfway competent (even Cernd would be a better choice). The only things keeping her alive is (a) trying to experience the romance to see if it makes her more tolerable (b) the hilarity of having 2x thieves setting traps. With the ground rule that no metagaming allowed for trap placement, only using them when they make sense. But even with that, her personality and crap use makes not killing her so, so hard.

InKal

I would recommend modding her via EE Enhanced NPC and/or Klatu fixes.

http://imgur.com/GzyU7ON

She is still NOT a frontline fighter that much but ehehheh a little more useful

http://imgur.com/AdL5E9A

tbone1

Hexxat is not my favorite NOC and not even my favorite EE NPC (nod to Rasaad). But she isn't too bad.

First,she filled two needs: lack of evil thief and lack of female romance options. These were generally seen as he biggest gaps in the game before the EE version.

Second, her quest is interesting and I found it challenging.

Third, her demanding if not pompous personality kinda works when seen from the point of view of her plot line; like Anomen, she's a better character than she is a personality. (Funny that people don't object to this quality in a Viconia, huh?)

Fourth, straight thieves really aren't frontline characters; that's more of a fighter and cleric role.

Fifth, she can't die, she can't be level drained, and she gives you a free bag of holding in Chapter 2. These are not small considerations.

I will grant you her lack of kit is a bit disappointing, but maybe with her other advantages it would be too much.

So while she isn't my favorite NPC, she certainly isn't the worst. And to be fair, the one I like least is often cited as awesome on these boards.

ThacoBell

@Grum Wait, you are playing an elf?

Lord_Tansheron

I gave her a chance, and then I gave her another chance, and now I'm just letting her rot in her tomb each game. No thanks, I don't need the catalog of problems that comes with using her.

Argyle

I thought Clara was pretty interesting, too bad she had to die. She reminded me of those inmates in Spellhold who see other planar things, and thus could have been a really interesting character to fill that badly needed neutral thief role. Hexxat had a certain charm, but not enough for long term employment.

Lord_Tansheron

Argyle said:

I thought Clara was pretty interesting, too bad she had to die. She reminded me of those inmates in Spellhold who see other planar things, and thus could have been a really interesting character to fill that badly needed neutral thief role. Hexxat had a certain charm, but not enough for long term employment.

Many people think so, I'm sure a mod is in the works already if it hasn't been done yet.

PaulaMigrate

Lord_Tansheron said:

Argyle said:

I thought Clara was pretty interesting, too bad she had to die. She reminded me of those inmates in Spellhold who see other planar things, and thus could have been a really interesting character to fill that badly needed neutral thief role. Hexxat had a certain charm, but not enough for long term employment.

Many people think so, I'm sure a mod is in the works already if it hasn't been done yet.

http://www.shsforums.net/topic/56877-mod-clara-the-mistshadow-bg2ee/?hl=clara

I think I saw another attempt as well but can't find it right now.

Grum

ThacoBell said:

@Grum Wait, you are playing an elf?

Aye. Playing a character who fights for the challenge and on whim rather than morals. Chaotic Neutral with a turn to evil. This is someone who joins Dorn for the excitement and Hexxat out of attraction. A dwarf just doesn't fit that bill.

Note: waiting for SoD, I have a dwarven defender and a fighter/cleric both waiting patiently.

And yes, I had to defend my honor here

Mirandel

PaulaMigrate said:

Lord_Tansheron said:

Argyle said:

I thought Clara was pretty interesting, too bad she had to die. She reminded me of those inmates in Spellhold who see other planar things, and thus could have been a really interesting character to fill that badly needed neutral thief role. Hexxat had a certain charm, but not enough for long term employment.

Many people think so, I'm sure a mod is in the works already if it hasn't been done yet.

http://www.shsforums.net/topic/56877-mod-clara-the-mistshadow-bg2ee/?hl=clara

I think I saw another attempt as well but can't find it right now.

I was sure I saw it recently at Pocket Plane forums - something about contacting the initial writer and getting most of the files. But can not find it either

SomeSort

PaulaMigrate said:

Lord_Tansheron said:

Argyle said:

I thought Clara was pretty interesting, too bad she had to die. She reminded me of those inmates in Spellhold who see other planar things, and thus could have been a really interesting character to fill that badly needed neutral thief role. Hexxat had a certain charm, but not enough for long term employment.

Many people think so, I'm sure a mod is in the works already if it hasn't been done yet.

http://www.shsforums.net/topic/56877-mod-clara-the-mistshadow-bg2ee/?hl=clara

I think I saw another attempt as well but can't find it right now.

I know @BCaesar and @Ratatoskr are working on a mod that gives you a playable Clara, too. I think she's initially scheduled to be part of their "All Things Mazzy" mod before they move on to an expanded Hexxat mod.

bob_veng

Grum said:

ure, she has Str20, but as a single class thief she can't even backstab for much damage

how's that true? she can backstab for plenty damage.
i played with hexxat til tob and didn't notice any problems. you should look at her "immortality" like it's a really powerful skill, not just some flavory quirk

TheArtisan

bob_veng said:

how's that true? she can backstab for plenty damage.

Because there is a huge problem with strength bonuses to backstabs - the multiplier only applies to your weapon's base damage, which means your strength bonus is only dealing a fraction of the damage it should. In other words, if Hexxat was using an ordinary short sword with 20 STR and x5 multiplier, the calculation is actually (1d6*5)+8 and not (1d6+8)*5. So despite that massive strength bonus, she's only dealing slightly more damage in a backstab than a thief with no strength bonus at all.

Just to make sure I wasn't imagining things (can't imagine I am given how much I play assassins) I created a 19 strength half-orc assassin. When wielding a dagger, his damage output 1d4 + 1 (assassin bonus) + 7 (strength bonus). I backstabbed a target several times and my attack never dealt more than 16 damage. This means that neither the assassin damage bonus nor the strength bonus is being multiplied. I then tried the same with a dagger +1 and the most damaging backstab was 19 damage. Which means the only part of your damage calculation which is multiplied by backstab is the damage on your weapon.

I don't know if this is a bug or intentional behavior, but it makes strength a lot less valuable than it looks. Still important, of course, for the THAC0 modifier, but that +8 damage is actually fairly unimpressive.

EDIT: Correcting myself - assassin bonus is multiplied. I managed to get 17 damage out of a backstab. But strength bonus definitely isn't. In fact, the math behind backstab is weird all around. I'm convinced than rather than rolling for weapon damage then multiplying the result by the backstab multiplier, it just rolls the amount of dice that is the backstab multiplier (so x5 equals 5d4 damage).

This is getting off topic, but I think it serves as an explanation as to why Hexxat's 20 strength isn't all that amazing.

bob_veng

i know that, in fact i've been writing similar replies to other people, but i'd never conclude based on that that it's not good backstab damage. a high multiplier and a good weapon such as the staff of striking is plenty of damage for SoA. i remember her doing something in the range of 60 damage

AstroBryGuy

Thief backstab damage is not supposed to multiply Strength bonus, as per the Player's Handbook:

The multiplier given in Table 30 applies to the amount of damage before modifiers for Strength or weapon bonuses are added. The weapon's standard damage is multiplied by the value given in Table 30. Then Strength and magical weapon bonuses are added.

Nikuss

I havent played with her, I only talked to her at the copper coronet. But during that short talk we had I made a decision not to ever have her in my party since she would end up annoying the hell out of me... Because of her appalling voice acting. The worst I have heard so far and I have played my fair share of shitty games.

ThacoBell

Nikuss said:

I havent played with her, I only talked to her at the copper coronet. But during that short talk we had I made a decision not to ever have her in my party since she would end up annoying the hell out of me... Because of her appalling voice acting. The worst I have heard so far and I have played my fair share of shitty games.

You never did her initial quest? Lets just say that her voice is like that for a reason.

semiticgoddess

I think Hexxat is underrated mechanically, but I did find her terribly cold.

And if you've read much of any lesbian literature, you know that heartfelt warmth is so much better. That deep emotional aspect is the best part, but Hexxat does not seem to have it.

abacus

I found her a steady performer with one of the returning throwing daggers... makes the most of her Strength & Dex

tbone1

semiticgod said:

I think Hexxat is underrated mechanically, but I did find her terribly cold.

And if you've read much of any lesbian literature, you know that heartfelt warmth is so much better. That deep emotional aspect is the best part, but Hexxat does not seem to have it.

Yeah, but there is that whole ... not entirely human thing. So it sorta makes sense.

Raduziel

AstroBryGuy said:

Thief backstab damage is not supposed to multiply Strength bonus, as per the Player's Handbook:

The multiplier given in Table 30 applies to the amount of damage before modifiers for Strength or weapon bonuses are added. The weapon's standard damage is multiplied by the value given in Table 30. Then Strength and magical weapon bonuses are added.

Good for us that Staff of Striking disagrees.

Flashburn

Raduziel said:

AstroBryGuy said:

Thief backstab damage is not supposed to multiply Strength bonus, as per the Player's Handbook:

The multiplier given in Table 30 applies to the amount of damage before modifiers for Strength or weapon bonuses are added. The weapon's standard damage is multiplied by the value given in Table 30. Then Strength and magical weapon bonuses are added.

Good for us that Staff of Striking disagrees.

Backstab is calculated as follows:
(base weapon damage + PHYSICAL damage bonus from weapon enchantment + proficiency damage bonus + kit damage bonus + weapon style damage bonus + misc. damage bonuses via items or spells [Bless, Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise, etc.]) x multiplier + strength bonus = total; total doubled if critical.

That's why the Staff of Striking and Staff of the Ram are good for backstabs, because of that physical damage bonus from their enchantment (+9; +10/+12 respectively).

sarevok57

I found hexxat to be alright, the only time I brought her along was when I was doing an evil run I want to say a couple of years ago? I had all the evils on my team and main was that ever a pain in the ass attempting to make the reputation not garbage

first you lose 2 points for bringing in viconia

then I think you lose some for dorn? and dummy wants to go slaughter everyone off in the noble heart and lose more rep, and I was like holy crap fam, tone 'er down a bit there skid row

even after doing the circus tent and haegen quest for some easy rep points, I think I was still down to around 3 rep, and that's a little low for a beginning party in SoA

but then I think the game bugs out, and if your REP hits too low ( with at least dorn in your party im assuming ?) the cowled wizards don't come ever, even afterwards when I was ready to create genocide and have 1 REP, no cowled wizards, no centurians no nothin' ( which was kind of disappointing)

but the thing that annoyed me the most is that ALL the evil peeps (except viconia) want you to go run off and do their quest nonsense right away, and if you don't they get mad sort of thing ( and from what I recall dorn's and hexxat's quest isn't something that is exactly easy to do with a fresh team, especially if you don't have the right weaponry)

but once all the side quest garbage was done and organized, in the end I found hexxat to be adequate, just does what she has to do, and she is an option for evil teams

but then again I don't RP at all, and if anyone tries to set up a romance with me I tell them to go pound sand, so maybe that is why I don't get annoyed by certain NPCs

Nikuss

ThacoBell said:

Nikuss said:

I havent played with her, I only talked to her at the copper coronet. But during that short talk we had I made a decision not to ever have her in my party since she would end up annoying the hell out of me... Because of her appalling voice acting. The worst I have heard so far and I have played my fair share of shitty games.

You never did her initial quest? Lets just say that her voice is like that for a reason.

Yeah and its blatantly obvious... I dont even need to do her quest or read up on it to know why shes like that. But thats the problem, the voice acting is so horribly bad that I already know her story. I would expound upon it if I knew how to do that spoiler hidey thing :P

Lord_Tansheron

Nikuss said:

But thats the problem, the voice acting is so horribly bad that I already know her story. I would expound upon it if I knew how to do that spoiler hidey thing :P

There's a sticky on how to hide spoilers, but to be fair, since this is a discussion involving the character's story why bother

But yeah, that first meeting at the Copper Coronet is not what the character is about. Nor is her voice. To put it mildly.

ThacoBell

I don't like Hexxat, that is certainly not an uncommon opinion. But I don't dislike her because I think she is poorly written or implemented. I dislike for the same reason I dislike Anomen. I can't stand her personality. The one exception is I'm nor find of how the rest of the party is written when Hexxat speaks to them.

Dharius

I think Hexxat is OK, I used her in ToB and she was a nice change from Jan as a thief. But in SoA (like Dorn) her personality and quests are too difficult to stomach from an alignment point of view - she makes Edwin look like a saint.

I really don't like her ToB ending (non-romance) either where she essentially kills off Ubtao. He's a nice guy and really doesn't deserve that kind of treatment

I DO like Anomen, though, a lot, because he can develop in several different ways depending on when you acquire him in the game, and the decisions he makes. And that's cool.

inkblowout

Hexxat wasn't too bad, her kit is okay but during the day she's kinda bad (because you know... vampires.)

I also didn't know that her bag could hold extra stuff. Now that's cool. The quest with clara was pretty good and the plot twist was actually quite enjoyable. But what I didn't like was the character itself... she's really bland, like I know she's supposed to be another meanie like viccy but at least viccy is interesting. She doesn't say much that interests me, (hell I would say Clara was more interesting, since because she had that mysterious vibe.) Even her biography was lame compared to others.

Overall she's meh really, She's a cool addition but she doesn't really offer much both in character and with her kit. Her bag is the only thing that's worthwhile.

Now only if you had to choose between Clara and Hexxat.... now that would be awesome

Quartz

@Nikuss I've been super critical of Beamdog's additions and even I think you're jumping to conclusions too quickly.

I'll just go ahead and say it.

The "Hexxat" you initially meet is under mind control, and her voice acting is supposed to be shitty. The Hexxat you end up with is not even the same person, and while her voice acting is a manner of personal taste, I can confirm it is actual voice acting.

bdtgazo

I love Hexxat. Good thief, nice summons, can't die, great with speed boots, fire xbow, and some bonus thaco gear.

Plus I can RP justify giving my PC the vampire race and a bit of an upgrade, if I'm feeling evil. Vampire drow cleric/necro feels nice.

edit: also, sometimes its fun to play as an undead hunter or anti-vamp ranger who falls in love with her.

Grum

Update: switched her to a throwing dagger. She is...not completely useless. Not good, but not useless.

Romance started. It feels like Charname is begging her for a relationship, and there is 0 buildup for the attraction.

Charname can tease Rasaad.
Charname can flirt with Neera.
Charname can be hit on aggressively by Dorn.

Each of those romances has a basis for the attraction. You learn about them. You talk with them. You flirt. Or in Dorn's case he is attracted by your power. There is something there that makes the relationship happen.

But with Hexxat it is like...why is Charname pursuing her so hard? Hexxat doesn't reciprocate. Why is Charname defending Hexxat from what's-her-name the quest cover? Why is Charname so sure they are good together?

It's just so...bland. I can't do it anymore. I'm abandoning the run and will see if I can just find her romance dialogue on YouTube.