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The Adventurer's Lounge: Guidance and Support for No Reload Challengers- Newbie or Veteran

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  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,508
    I don't know ascension but would stoneskin, mirror image, shadow door, contingency-stoneskin or polymorph rat (cloak of the sewers) help?
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited December 2020
    The rat form could definitely be nice. Melissan does slashing damage in Ascension so jelly form isn't great, but rat form is very wicked. You'd still have to deal with her on-hit effects, one of which can stun-lock you. I think that could work.

    @Blackraven: I don't think it defeats the purpose. It's normal to have party members do the heavy lifting, or even all of the work, depending on the situation. The idea is not for the Transmuter to be self-sufficient (the Maze tactic would be fatal in a solo run), but for it to survive. It's functionally comparable to Invisibility, Resilient Sphere, or just running away. The fact that Maze can work on any character, not just a Transmuter, is not unique; plenty of strats are like that.

    Compare it to having a Wizard Slayer use a Protection from Magic scroll or Peridan to block disablers. It doesn't defeat the purpose of having a Wizard Slayer just because it compensates for its weaknesses. After all, no-reload gameplay is all about finding ways to get around a character's weaknesses.

    Traditionally the Transmuter has been seen as impractical because it can't use PFMW, nor can it achieve high damage resistance. The whole point is to find another way for it to survive.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    I'm not sure I'd compare Maze to Invisibility etc because Maze really places the character outisde the battle. ToB enemies can see through invisibility, they can dispel a Resilient Sphere, and shoot missiles / chase / cast spells at characters that are running away. And a Wizard Slayer blocking spells with PfMagic or Peridan is still exposed to physical threats. But despite that, I don't disagree with your main point. No-reload is about survival, and it makes sense to do whatever it takes in hugely challenging runs. I spoke rashly and I apologize if I came across as dismissive.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    No worries!

    One notable disadvantage of Maze is that the duration is random. You don't really know when the character will emerge, and there's always a chance that it will run out quickly and leave you vulnerable. Freedom can end it early, and fortunately Freedom scrolls are cheap. In practice, it could be tricky.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    No worries!

    One notable disadvantage of Maze is that the duration is random. You don't really know when the character will emerge, and there's always a chance that it will run out quickly and leave you vulnerable. Freedom can end it early, and fortunately Freedom scrolls are cheap. In practice, it could be tricky.

    That's a very good point too, the random duration can make it quite tricky. Do you think it's possible to chain-Maze the Transmuter? It has a casting time of 3, so with Vecna, and enough spells/scrolls (maybe scribing them with the scribe scrolls ability from aTweaks?), one could theoretically keep the character mazed ad infinitum, with only centiseconds of exposure. Even so, you don't want the Maze to end during an enemy Time Stop... So all in all yes, quite tricky, and definitely worth testing.
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,508
    edited December 2020
    Doesn't it kind of defeat the purpose of getting the character to the end game if it is not contributing. You might then just as well use any character.

    Just a thought
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Now I'm starting to think the Transmuter run isn't worth trying... And I'm wondering if there's any purpose at all to trying new characters unless it's a solo run.

    We don't have a multi-classed Fighter/Druid in the Hall. But would a Fighter/Druid run really be any different from every run with Jaheira in the party? What makes it novel to have a Fighter/Druid Charname, if you can always have a Fighter/Druid in the party?
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,508
    edited December 2020
    Yes, those are really good points.
    To me, a noreload is a success if my main character goes I to combat with all the main bosses and pulls through, because in the end the story is about the main character. S/he doesn't need to get the most kills or the most damage, but involvement matters to me.
    Then again, I wonder if you can do a passive noreload with mainchar at the back doing absolutely nothing all game.
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 614
    I see it in simpler terms. If Jaheira gets killed, big deal. Just resurrect her. If PC fighter/druid gets killed, game over. That's the challenge.

    All no-reload successes are to be cherished, no such thing as a bad one. The rest is just about what the player wants to do and the kind of fun you want to have. In one run you could play a solo PC who has to deal with everything thrown at them. In the very next run you could play a game where the PC is not allowed to do anything. Try that as a challenge: your PC can't attack anyone, can't cast any spells, can't drink a potion, just a literal passenger. So the challenge is to keep that PC safe (through the actions of the rest of the party) to survive a no-reload. Think that would be an extraordinary challenge.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited December 2020
    That's reassuring. Thank you. :smile:

    I've actually considered a "passive Charname run, where Charname could not do anything except walk and talk--no items, no spells or special abilities, no attacks, no stealth or bard songs or thief skills or anything. The ideal class would probably be a Dwarven Defender for earliest resistances and HD and saves, a halfling Barbarian for slightly better AC but later-game resistances, or a monk for the movement rate and MR.

    Although I'm not sure how to deal with SoD's Unspeakable Horror or Bhaal in the Spellhold dream without fighting...
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,320
    Although I'm not sure how to deal with SoD's Unspeakable Horror or Bhaal in the Spellhold dream without fighting...

    If you're allowing the use of active defences, then would fire shield be permitted?
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited December 2020
    No, that would be spellcasting or using items.

    Maybe have a party member set a trap for the Unknowable Horror and maybe some polymorph teleporting to get Jon's Key early and go right to the Underdark via the portal, skipping City Sushi?
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 614
    If the challenge is not to actively do anything, you could potentially do some damage passively by wearing items that do backlash damage. Can't think of anything obvious or ideal, it would require some theorycrafting, but isn't there a studded leather of thorns? Must be some other stuff as well. The katana from Tactics mod is also a thing if you're willing to use stuff like that.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Sanchuudoku could work in Spellhold, but I'm not sure if the damage would be enough. The Studded Leather of Thorns is in ToB, too late for Spellhold. Both are too late for SoD.

    I'd actually like to avoid equipping items, either, if possible.
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 614
    So it's a naked no-action run? That's certainly extreme. Is there some exploitative way for another character to cast a chain contingency on the PC?
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Jaheiras_Witness: Pre-EE, casters could cast Chain Contingency as long as they had a spellbook and Nahal's Reckless Dweomer via hotkey as long as they had a mage's spellbook. I don't think I'd use that if it were still available, though.

    The character would probably be pretty dependent on running around and invisibility, with Hardiness from another character's Wish spell to deal with Melissan's Time Stop and such (a Barbarian or Dwarven Defender with the Ascension physical damage resistances from defeating the Ravager can still break 85% damage resistance for Melissan without needing the Defender of Easthaven).
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,508
    edited December 2020
    The suncatcher, would that be on time. I forget what you mean with the horror.

    Also, you could consider that it of necessity you could defend yourself from the attacker if no one else is around.
  • EnuhalEnuhal Member, Moderator Posts: 946
    edited December 2020
    My approach would be a bit more pragmatic: As we can set up our own rules for these types of challenge runs, why not just include an exception: "unless the game forces us to solely rely on our main character, such as the end of SoD or the Bhaal dream in Spellhold." People in the no-reload thread know the game quite well and are aware that there would be no conventional ways to deal with these situations, and I don't think anyone would take away anything from such a run if those exceptions were made.

    The Suncatcher is from SoD, and it might be possible to export it into SoA via BG:EE:T, but killing something with this thing would certainly be painful, given its low chance to trigger and its very low damage. Might be a possibility, though, given enough time, ways to heal (rings of regeneration) and to run away from Bhaal. So, propably the best option mentioned so far from a purist perspective. Would still be equipping an item, but I'm not sure if there is a way to deal with these situations otherwise.
  • Adam_en_tiumAdam_en_tium Member Posts: 99
    The numbers are just bad, and Mirror Image doesn't safely compensate.

    You can always have a luck spell to make sure the images are struck first, but it's maybe a bit too much to cast both. And I think luck has quite a short duration...
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    The numbers are just bad, and Mirror Image doesn't safely compensate.

    You can always have a luck spell to make sure the images are struck first, but it's maybe a bit too much to cast both. And I think luck has quite a short duration...

    Good point, maybe having a bard in the party to give luck through their song could be worthwhile, at least in BG1?

    Not sure if the Transmuter is already level 7 but there are two Stoneskin scrolls in in the game that can be acquired relatively early on (technically even in Chapter 2). There is one obtainable through Neera's quest (final battle), though in my previous attempts Ekandor, the red wizard carrying that scroll, read it before I could kill him. The other one is carried by Dezkiel on the Ice Island. If you can make everyone invisible and have Alora disarm all the traps in the dungeon you should be able to safely reach Dezkiel without having to deal with the other wizards. Wand summons can be used to rid Dezkiel of his spells and the scroll will be yours.
  • Adam_en_tiumAdam_en_tium Member Posts: 99
    Blackraven wrote: »
    Good point, maybe having a bard in the party to give luck through their song could be worthwhile, at least in BG1?

    I forgot about the luck effect of the bard song !
    Then @semiticgoddess maybe you could grab Garrick instead of Xan ?
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,508
    edited December 2020
    You can also just use the chant spell and not have an inactive character
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    All brilliant ideas! The concept of a mage-heavy party just doesn't seem right after losing Xan's Moonblade, but maybe in a future run I'll do an arcane party with a bard or Chant to ensure safe Mirror Images. Right now I've brought on Khalid, Jaheira, and Dorn to give us some decent tanks--most of BG1 is done by now; it's time to just smash through the remaining obstacles and get to SoD.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    The Transmuter is currently trampling SoD with a mage-heavy party. Things are different when you have Stoneskin; you have a really solid buffer that gives you plenty of time to break fights with big spells.

    Plus, with Emotion, Hope and Emotion, Courage from the IWD section of SCS, Minute Meteors deal +5 damage, and at 5 APR unhasted, that's a lot of burst damage with high accuracy.

    One of the things I'm doing differently in this run is I'm trying to play with some NPCs I normally don't go with. BG1 is a lot harder without Coran's archery (bows are just plain better than almost anything else, from Candlekeep to Sarevok), but Minute Meteors have compensated reasonably well for Corwin's absence in SoD (Corwin is by far the best NPC in SoD in my experience). I did still keep Alora because I love her personality, and I do still have Baeloth on hand, but Baeloth is a lot less useful in my version of SCS, in which the NPC customization system is bugged: he doesn't get any of his extra spell picks that his ring is supposed to grant, so he's just an ordinary sorcerer with 50% MR and bad DEX.

    BG2 will be a bit tougher. No Spell Immunity and no PFMW make for a lousy mage Charname, but BG2 has always been the easiest game for me simply due to familiarity.

    ToB will still be sticky. We'll probably spend much of it clinging to the Staff of the Magi and running for dear life whenever anyone gets a peek at us.

    A bit of good news is that for Melissan, the Ascension Pocket Plane bonuses will stack with shapeshifting and Hardiness. Iron golems get 20% physical damage resistance and jellies get 30% resistance to slashing and crushing, plus 100% resistance to piercing and 85% resistance to missile damage, so if we have Edwin with a Potion of Insight spamming Wish, we can hit some pretty solid undispellable resistances for 10 rounds per Wish Hardiness:

    Iron Golem:

    Slashing: 85%
    Crushing: 85%
    Piercing: 85%
    Missile: 100% (with the Belt of Inertial Barrier)

    Mustard Jelly:

    Slashing: 95%
    Crushing: 95%
    Piercing: 100%
    Missile: 100%

    Pretty wicked! Jelly form is also immune to stun, so Melissan won't be able to stun-lock it. But Hardiness is dependent on Wishes, and Edwin's Project Image clone won't be able to drink Potions of Insight for Wishes in SCS. Aerie can do it after 6 million XP, but she can only hit 17 WIS without visiting the Machine of Lum the Mad and has limited level 9 spell slots. And while our Transmuter will have easy Wishes at 18 WIS, she can't cast Wish when shapeshifted.

    So I don't know. Maybe we'll have to stay safe with Maze; maybe we'll rely on iron golem or jelly form; maybe we'll use rat form. But all of them have big disadvantages: the first has random durations, the second prevents spellcasting and can still let in scratch damage, and the third prevents spellcasting and can still let in elemental damage from Melissan's spear.

    One notable advantage of shapeshifting is that, with the right items to ensure fire immunity, our Transmuter could be a very convenient target for the Scorcher Ammunition--but I think the Scorcher Ammunition with Firetooth does piercing rather than missile damage (so iron golem form would take damage from it), and jelly form is bad for mobility. So maybe rat form would make the most sense; it lasts 20 rounds and will be restored by occasional Wish rests.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I mean, there's always carpeting the map with Skull Traps and Delayed Blast Fireballs and luring Melissan over to a clean batch after the Five are gone by teleporting away during Time Stop so she gets hit by a whole mess of them once Time Stop ends (@histamiini invented that trick), with the Cloak of Mirroring to avoid dying instantly if we aren't in iron golem or jelly form, and there's always using the Wand of Lightning trick to multiply Wishes on Edwin and ensure a healthy supply, but I don't want to flood the map and crash the game right at the end and I've lost interest in the WoL trick because it can break almost anything.

    I've contemplating trying an all-Transmuters party if this one fails, but I'm wondering how a party of 6 Transmuters could handle BG2 and ToB safely. If no one in the party can maintain buffs safely, we're just going to get wiped out by something stupid like a Chaos spell or Horrid Wilting--or massacred by melee enemies because we're all in jelly form.
  • aldainaldain Member Posts: 308
    I just wanted to say I really enjoy your theory-crafting with regards to Transmuter charnames @semiticgoddess . Starting to think I might want to try one myself...
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