When I said they took things too far I wasn't referring specifically to replacing the old movies (though in my personal opinion, this particular change does count as completely unnecessary).
I'm going to insist on my previous argument: you want a great example of an Enhanced Edition that's faithful to the spirit of the original? Look at PST:EE. BG:EE is, at best, a mixed bag.
Replacing awful, outdated graphics with more modern ones isn't exactly "taking things to far". If the source material for BG hadn't been lost then we would've seen that happen all over the place, with the maps, the sprites, and so on.
Well all I can say is thank the Gods it was lost.
Where do you see this going? Where would you draw the line as to what should be updated?
There are without doubt some questionable attitudes expressed in BG/BG2 that have no place in this "Brave New World". Happy to see them updated?
"Where would you draw the line as to what should be updated?"
Everything up to presentation is fair game. Don't change the existing story, or re write anything that isn't spelling or grammar errors. But things like graphics, sound quality, and resolution are all on the list of "Must make better." I've gone back to the original BG1 and you know what? Its unplayable. Everything about it on a technical level pales in comparison to its sequel, which is already dated on its own. The molasses slow walking speeds, long load times, eyeball stabbing cinematics, disc switching, changes to all of that is WELCOME. BGEE is just flat out BETTER than the original in every way.
I'm not going to seriously suggest people should play BG in a 640x480 resolution, nor will I deny that BG2's engine is leaps and bounds superior. From a technical standpoint, the EEs are a superior product. No contest.
I believe, however, that Beamdog hasn't so much improved the graphics as much as making them almost unrecognizable. I keep referring to PST:EE because on that game, they were totally faithful to the original by merely making it high-res and also making every change optional. It's disheartening that BG didn't get the same treatment.
Not to mention the whole bunch of arbitrary changes and the poor implementation of the new NPCs (mind you, I'm not criticizing the NPCs themselves - just the way they were implemented, sticking out like sore thumbs and hogging the spotlight from the original ones).
With the first 30 seconds being cinematics, I was starting to get disappointed because I hate when promos do stuff like that. Then they started getting to sort-of gameplay, and it looked awesome.
So, I spent a lot of time today playing the original BG. First, the original character sprites are so awesomely beautiful. I'll likely play original IWD next so I can enjoy those sprites some more.
Second, it's fascinating to see BG1 again as it was originally intended. There's an awful lot of stuff added by mods like Tweaks and NPC Project that people don't even realize, that changes the whole balance of the early game. People have used the most popular mods for so many years, I think most people have forgotten what comes from a mod and what doesn't.
Did you know that Remove Fear was originally on the druid first level spell list, and Jaheira has it? And that she originally started with almost enough xp to be 2/2? That Remove Fear radically alters the entire low level druid balance. I have no idea why they thought it was a good idea to deny druids Remove Fear in BG2, and therefore in any back port of BG2 rules into BG1.
Artillery management with maximum stacks of 20 can actually be fun. And *so* much more realistic. Don't even get me started on how immersion-breaking dual-wielding is to me, since I know how absurdly unrealistic it is. In reality, wielding a weapon in each hand does nothing to increase your damage. See LindyBeige videos about dual wielding on YouTube if you doubt that.
Ditto for the enhanced realism of not being able to pause on inventory screen.
Did you know that Imoen only has a Wand of Missiles if you are playing a pure class? If you play a multi-class, she has no wand.
I am impressed anew with all the awesomeness that has been lost from this game over the years of modding it to death.
@BelgarathMTH "And that she originally started with almost enough xp to be 2/2?" She doesn't for you? She is always my first level up because the game gives her so much starting xp. Too each their own for the other stuff. That is all things that I HATED in the original.
*EDIT* Ugh, that sounded dismissive (curse you hindsight!) Its great that you are having so much fun with the original. Glad you're having fun.
I'll likely play original IWD next so I can enjoy those sprites some more.
You may actually need a mod for that. IIRC, either Heart of Winter or Trials of the Luremaster replaces the glorious BG1-style animations with those hideous BG2 ones. Unless, of course, you don't intend to install those expansions.
I'll likely play original IWD next so I can enjoy those sprites some more.
You may actually need a mod for that. IIRC, either Heart of Winter or Trials of the Luremaster replaces the glorious BG1-style animations with those hideous BG2 ones. Unless, of course, you don't intend to install those expansions.
Aww. I guess the GoG version has the BG2 replacements, then. I'm not sure why I was remembering it differently. At least I can play at 640 resolution and with no kits and the original weapon proficiency system. I prefer original resolution in these games because of the flawless zoom in. I don't like the zoomed out look of higher resolutions, and the EE zoom in feature causes blurriness when you zoom in as close as I like it.
I'll likely play original IWD next so I can enjoy those sprites some more.
You may actually need a mod for that. IIRC, either Heart of Winter or Trials of the Luremaster replaces the glorious BG1-style animations with those hideous BG2 ones. Unless, of course, you don't intend to install those expansions.
I'm pretty sure that it is Heart of Winter that replaces the sprites. I remember when I first bought it I thought something had gone wrong with my computer because my beautiful game of IWD suddenly looked horrible. Eventually, I worked out what had happened and uninstalled it without ever playing it. I was such a relief to get the game back looking like it should.
I had a similar reaction when I first loaded BG2. I just couldn't believe how ugly the sprites were. They looked horrible and that was before you even got to the mirroring.
So, I spent a lot of time today playing the original BG. First, the original character sprites are so awesomely beautiful.
+1 million or twenty.
BG sounds are also generally better than BG2’s, with of course but a few exceptions. I’m playing BGT with the latest alpha of Infinity Sounds and it’s an aural bliss.
I also prefer to play at lower resolutions now, though I used to like EEs better when they employed the fancy Catmull-Rom scaling algo (that was up to 1.3.) Hopefully we’ll get it back in a future patch; it was really good.
EDIT: I actually believe it was Trials of the Luremaster that changed the sprites to BG2’s, and unjustifiedly so (IIRC there was no dual-wielding in IWD even with the expansions.)
Since this is a thread about older nostalgic videos, here's the definitive roleplayed Let's Play of the original Baldur's Gate by Tord, aka IAmNotLilly, in case anyone has never seen it and/or would be interested. Tord's videos have been an inspiration to all roleplayers ever since he posted them several years ago. He ran Lilly Black through all of the original BG and BG2, and through Act I of Neverwinter Nights. In the NWN video, he brought roleplaying and making videos to an art form. Sadly, he got a new job of some kind after he did Act I of NWN and never posted videos again.
Plain slate grey stone is the most boring UI I have ever had to put up with. The black stone has a lot more little details worked in than the ugly grey. The blue and gold stone UI is still the best looking though.
Still got the proper stone and gold but with more at the side which I like.
I'm sorry @ThacoBell but that "after" one is poor, not at all in keeping with an epic saga portrayed in an epic game.
It's the reason I have a copy of the later BG installed (had to to get SOD) and have never played it. Also why I actually struggle with a messed up BG2 install rather than "upgrade" to 2. 'whatever number they are on now'.
The endless releasing of versions has been very detrimental to the cohesiveness of the fan base/players, worrying which mods will work, people talking about something happening in their game which doesn't happen in a different version ect.
Wouldn't it have been better to actually ask what the customers wanted? It's not like here was any lack of customer research and feedback. Nearly twenty years of it, most companies would give their eye teeth to have such extensive market research and feedback before they released a product. It costs them millions to collect normally.
Wouldn't it have been better to actually ask what the customers wanted?
Because customers will not all want the same things and some of the things they want will probably be incompatible. Beamdog made changes that some customers want and that some other customers don't. You can't please everyone.
You can precisely see that with the discussion about which UI is the best
You ask the customers before making changes obviously, not make them and sit back and watch the sh*tstorm.
That's why I made the point about the endless versions harming the cohesiveness of the player community.
A very simple change, isolated from affecting much else. The spell book. Really, seriously people were asking to have it made more complicated with more chance of a mistake being made (which is my experience with the SOD spellbook)? They were sitting around saying, "you know, that BG game would be absolutely perfect if they removed the sound of pages being turned"?
Wouldn't it have been better to actually ask what the customers wanted?
Because customers will not all want the same things and some of the things they want will probably be incompatible. Beamdog made changes that some customers want and that some other customers don't. You can't please everyone.
You can precisely see that with the discussion about which UI is the best
Hey lefreut i have used some of your mods to try to make the new UI as bearable as possible. Do you currently or have plans to do a recreation of the stone and gold theme from the original BG for both BGEE and BG2EE? I simply love the look, nostalgia or not i think it is elegant in my opinion. I really want that look as close as possible for the latest UI. Can you help me?
You ask the customers before making changes obviously, not make them and sit back and watch the sh*tstorm.
You ask them, and they still won't all give you the same answer.
Personally, I like the SoD interface. The interface has some nice detailing, but it fades to the background of my perception when I'm playing the game. I don't really care for skeuomorphic design. I don't need faux-stone or parchment to make the game enjoyable. Just make it functional and unobtrusive.
You can have a great game with an interface of line art...
In the case of the spell book/scroll interfaces, they aren't perfect, but I appreciate the functionality they added (e.g., more than 24 spells per level, spell names visible, spell descriptions easily visible).
I like most of the old movies, especially the introduction to Nashkel. Those kobolds creeping adds flavour to the scenario. I do like the new sleeping movies, though. It'd be nice to alternate them with the old ones. it'd be nice to select which movies play (maybe in the config file?).
That PS1 port is great. XD It reminds me of the unit walking speed in WarCraft 1.
I replayed Warcraft 1 recently. Its almost completely unplayable, only just for the nostalgia hit... nothing quite like being sniped by a ****ing catapult, or struggling to select the 4 units I can clumsily control at the time. The graphics hurt the eyes mostly, and there are so many terrible idiosyncrasys, like the roads. it was bloody amazing when it came out, now its hard as heck despite being simplistic, because its so hard to actually do anything. Its not challenging gameplay-wise, just hard to play.
Warcraft 2 is still playable though, and doesn't look bad really. It varies from way too easy to too hard, with very little middle ground. I used to be able to beat the Alamo, now I think I'd be swamped by 3 enemies in Garden of War.
The EEs are a wonderful update imho on a very good but troubled product. The EE interface is better than the original too imho.
Hey lefreut i have used some of your mods to try to make the new UI as bearable as possible. Do you currently or have plans to do a recreation of the stone and gold theme from the original BG for both BGEE and BG2EE? I simply love the look, nostalgia or not i think it is elegant in my opinion. I really want that look as close as possible for the latest UI. Can you help me?
As @AndreaColombo pointed out, I've been working (at a sluggish pace) on porting the classic stone UI to the EEs. I expect to have a beta version by the end of the year and a proper release some time after the new patch.
Porting the old UI to the Enhanced Edition is hard because the original arts are low-res, the EEs introduces new screens that you have to recreate in the old skin and even if the new UI is very powerful, there are things that can't be modded.
The original assets can be resized with an acceptable loss of quality (it won't look as large as it used to look on a 640x480 screen, though that is most certainly for the best), but as lefreut points out, resizing stuff is but a small part of the work involved.
Another video I hadn't seen before. The trailer from 1998.
I'm not so sure that this is real BG trailer. Look closely, and you will easily see, that there is a lot of scenes, where sprites from BG2 are used (e.g. 0:17, 0:21, 0:25, 0:30). More than that, there are scenes, where game uses 3D acceleration (1:25) and this feature wasn't present in BG1. Also, there is a lot of spell effects from BG2 (like confuse in 1:35)...
Interesting stuff, to be honest, but I don't think it was made by Bioware. Maybe BGT/TUTU fan trailer? On the other hand, there are scenes from vanilla BG1...
The other videos listed on Interplay's original site are on FP too. Not sure about the comic book; haven't looked yet but no, their FTP links don't work sadly.
I say files because you're running an actual executable of an old version of the original engine as opposed to just a video! Emphasis on old so it quite likely won't run correctly on Windows 10 but you can use a virtual machine of XP or '98 or whatever instead.
I don't remember being able to be struck by lightning in the actual game. I suppose most of what's in this demo is creative uses of the engine as opposed to actual game content, yes?
Comments
I'm going to insist on my previous argument: you want a great example of an Enhanced Edition that's faithful to the spirit of the original? Look at PST:EE. BG:EE is, at best, a mixed bag.
Where do you see this going?
Where would you draw the line as to what should be updated?
There are without doubt some questionable attitudes expressed in BG/BG2 that have no place in this "Brave New World".
Happy to see them updated?
Everything up to presentation is fair game. Don't change the existing story, or re write anything that isn't spelling or grammar errors. But things like graphics, sound quality, and resolution are all on the list of "Must make better." I've gone back to the original BG1 and you know what? Its unplayable. Everything about it on a technical level pales in comparison to its sequel, which is already dated on its own. The molasses slow walking speeds, long load times, eyeball stabbing cinematics, disc switching, changes to all of that is WELCOME. BGEE is just flat out BETTER than the original in every way.
I believe, however, that Beamdog hasn't so much improved the graphics as much as making them almost unrecognizable. I keep referring to PST:EE because on that game, they were totally faithful to the original by merely making it high-res and also making every change optional. It's disheartening that BG didn't get the same treatment.
Not to mention the whole bunch of arbitrary changes and the poor implementation of the new NPCs (mind you, I'm not criticizing the NPCs themselves - just the way they were implemented, sticking out like sore thumbs and hogging the spotlight from the original ones).
Second, it's fascinating to see BG1 again as it was originally intended. There's an awful lot of stuff added by mods like Tweaks and NPC Project that people don't even realize, that changes the whole balance of the early game. People have used the most popular mods for so many years, I think most people have forgotten what comes from a mod and what doesn't.
Did you know that Remove Fear was originally on the druid first level spell list, and Jaheira has it? And that she originally started with almost enough xp to be 2/2? That Remove Fear radically alters the entire low level druid balance. I have no idea why they thought it was a good idea to deny druids Remove Fear in BG2, and therefore in any back port of BG2 rules into BG1.
Artillery management with maximum stacks of 20 can actually be fun. And *so* much more realistic. Don't even get me started on how immersion-breaking dual-wielding is to me, since I know how absurdly unrealistic it is. In reality, wielding a weapon in each hand does nothing to increase your damage. See LindyBeige videos about dual wielding on YouTube if you doubt that.
Ditto for the enhanced realism of not being able to pause on inventory screen.
Did you know that Imoen only has a Wand of Missiles if you are playing a pure class? If you play a multi-class, she has no wand.
I am impressed anew with all the awesomeness that has been lost from this game over the years of modding it to death.
*EDIT* Ugh, that sounded dismissive (curse you hindsight!) Its great that you are having so much fun with the original. Glad you're having fun.
I had a similar reaction when I first loaded BG2. I just couldn't believe how ugly the sprites were. They looked horrible and that was before you even got to the mirroring.
BG sounds are also generally better than BG2’s, with of course but a few exceptions. I’m playing BGT with the latest alpha of Infinity Sounds and it’s an aural bliss.
I also prefer to play at lower resolutions now, though I used to like EEs better when they employed the fancy Catmull-Rom scaling algo (that was up to 1.3.) Hopefully we’ll get it back in a future patch; it was really good.
EDIT: I actually believe it was Trials of the Luremaster that changed the sprites to BG2’s, and unjustifiedly so (IIRC there was no dual-wielding in IWD even with the expansions.)
This UI from '98 is absolutely gorgeous. The attention to detail of the stone and gold-outlines is a work of
art.
Before
After
Seems to be the best of both worlds.
Still got the proper stone and gold but with more at the side which I like.
I'm sorry @ThacoBell but that "after" one is poor, not at all in keeping with an epic saga portrayed in an epic game.
It's the reason I have a copy of the later BG installed (had to to get SOD) and have never played it.
Also why I actually struggle with a messed up BG2 install rather than "upgrade" to 2. 'whatever number they are on now'.
The endless releasing of versions has been very detrimental to the cohesiveness of the fan base/players, worrying which mods will work, people talking about something happening in their game which doesn't happen in a different version ect.
Wouldn't it have been better to actually ask what the customers wanted?
It's not like here was any lack of customer research and feedback. Nearly twenty years of it, most companies would give their eye teeth to have such extensive market research and feedback before they released a product. It costs them millions to collect normally.
That's why I made the point about the endless versions harming the cohesiveness of the player community.
A very simple change, isolated from affecting much else.
The spell book.
Really, seriously people were asking to have it made more complicated with more chance of a mistake being made (which is my experience with the SOD spellbook)?
They were sitting around saying, "you know, that BG game would be absolutely perfect if they removed the sound of pages being turned"?
Personally, I like the SoD interface. The interface has some nice detailing, but it fades to the background of my perception when I'm playing the game. I don't really care for skeuomorphic design. I don't need faux-stone or parchment to make the game enjoyable. Just make it functional and unobtrusive.
You can have a great game with an interface of line art...
In the case of the spell book/scroll interfaces, they aren't perfect, but I appreciate the functionality they added (e.g., more than 24 spells per level, spell names visible, spell descriptions easily visible).
Warcraft 2 is still playable though, and doesn't look bad really. It varies from way too easy to too hard, with very little middle ground. I used to be able to beat the Alamo, now I think I'd be swamped by 3 enemies in Garden of War.
The EEs are a wonderful update imho on a very good but troubled product. The EE interface is better than the original too imho.
Interesting stuff, to be honest, but I don't think it was made by Bioware. Maybe BGT/TUTU fan trailer? On the other hand, there are scenes from vanilla BG1...
https://fileplanet.com/archive/p-52140/Baldur-s-Gate-Non-Interactive-Preview
The other videos listed on Interplay's original site are on FP too. Not sure about the comic book; haven't looked yet but no, their FTP links don't work sadly.
I say files because you're running an actual executable of an old version of the original engine as opposed to just a video! Emphasis on old so it quite likely won't run correctly on Windows 10 but you can use a virtual machine of XP or '98 or whatever instead.
I don't remember being able to be struck by lightning in the actual game. I suppose most of what's in this demo is creative uses of the engine as opposed to actual game content, yes?
Gus