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Retcon overconnection of dots is a pox upon storytelling

DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
What is overconnection of dots? I will use Star Wars as an example. The droids R2D2 and C3PO are in episode 1 revealed to be built by Anakin. Why? Can they just not be droids who have been with the rebellion? In fact, does that not make them more interesting? Indeed it does, and such is the curse of overconnection.

Now, please keep in mind that overconnection is different from simply telling more backstory. Staying in the Star Wars universe, Rogue One told more backstory without overcennecting (with the possible exception of the very end).

Overconnection stems from a desire to tie the bag together - unnecissarily! It has been around for ages; Jesus's apprentice Mary Magdalene, for instance, WAS not a prostitute, despite popular belief. There is in the bible a prostitute called Mary and later there is an apprentice called Mary... and 700 or 300 or whatever years later, a cabal of priests decided they were the same person, with no evidence what so ever to support that notion.

So, why should one avoid overconnecting? Because it, invariably, makes the story less interesting.

You need more evidence before you are convinced? Sure thing!

The trade federation making the plans for the death star = blargh!
Jon Snow being of noble dragon lord origin = hand me a bucket!
The new alien movies revealing aliens to be experimental weapons = I will hug the toilett all night long!!!

Final remark; note that overconnecting is different from "fantastic encounters" which is a fine practice. What is a fantastic encounter then? Well, you take one story and overlap with another story, in orders to force two interesting agents to interact. For instance; aliens versus predator. It, too, have been around for ages. For instance, Herodes died before Jesus was born. Their encounter is forced, due to the interesting "What if?" stories such an encounter yields.
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Comments

  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 910
    I frequented the Jedi Council forums back in the days before Episode III came out. I remember that people were really worried about what more weird overconnections the next movie would bring. The most dreaded one was any attempt to give a young Han Solo a cameo.

    I don't like stuff like Anakin-made-C3PO because it feels like a glaringly obvious nod at the fans instead of a natural part of the story. You know the shot from Rocky horror picture show when Tim Curry stares right into the camera with a raised eyebrow and goes "Well, how about that"? That's what I feel a movie does when trying to connect the dots like that. "Wow, C3PO was actually made by Anakin - Well how about that, audience!".
  • redlineredline Member Posts: 296
    DrakeICN said:


    Jon Snow being of noble dragon lord origin = hand me a bucket!


    This was heavily foreshadowed by the books, so much so that many fans pieced it together well before it was revealed in the show. I agree with your overall point but this is a bad example.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    DrakeICN said:


    The trade federation making the plans for the death star = blargh!
    Jon Snow being of noble dragon lord origin = hand me a bucket!
    The new alien movies revealing aliens to be experimental weapons = I will hug the toilett all night long!!!

    Can't say I'm opposed to the last one, to be honest.

    God knows the average toilet deserves a snuggle for all the crap they take from us.
  • Son_of_ImoenSon_of_Imoen Member Posts: 1,806
    I myself have always been totally irked by the overconnection (I didn't know the word before reading your post, but did know about the Mary of Magdalene thing) of mixing Jesus disciple Mary of Magdalene up with the prostitute from another part of the story. But since we're on the Beamdog boards, are there examples of this phenomenon of over-connection in the BG, IWD, PST or NWN games?
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 910
    All the former companions that show up in BG2 comes to mind. Some make sense while some just feel weird to me. Like Faldorn and Ajantis. Since there is no mention at all that you've met Faldorn before (is there?), I prefer to head canon that Faldorn is just a common name among Shadow druids.
  • ArdanisArdanis Member Posts: 1,736
    edited January 2018
    JoenSo said:

    All the former companions that show up in BG2 comes to mind.

    I'm pretty sure that's continuity, not connection. BG2 *is* a sequel after all.

    DrakeICN said:


    The trade federation making the plans for the death star = blargh!
    Jon Snow being of noble dragon lord origin = hand me a bucket!
    The new alien movies revealing aliens to be experimental weapons = I will hug the toilett all night long!!!

    Can't say I'm opposed to the last one, to be honest.

    God knows the average toilet deserves a snuggle for all the crap they take from us.
    Let us all hold hands together and say in unison "DO NOT WANT!" (C) Darth Vader to coprophilia.
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 910
    I didn't mean literally all the former companions. Just in the sense that there's so many of them showing up. Waking up in a dungeon with the people you supposedly adventured with in the previous game is a nice, logical way to connect the two games. Including Ajantis and Faldorn like that, with no way to comment on how you actually know those people, isn't really continuity.

    Actually, I guess that's what I don't like with it. Because Faldorn and Ajantis should be continuity, but they really aren't. They're just... there. They are not continuing anything, just briefly connecting the two games.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    Ajantis's connection started in BG though with his biography story.

    Unless travelling with his mentor is another over-connection.
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 910
    edited January 2018
    And that would've been a good connection if they had actually done something with it.
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,428
    Coran was mentioned as being from the Forest of Tethyr in the first game, so him having a home there later makes sense in its way. Of course, it raises the question of how the hell he survived in a place filled with all of those crazy mists and other such things, but eh.
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  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    JoenSo said:

    I didn't mean literally all the former companions. Just in the sense that there's so many of them showing up. Waking up in a dungeon with the people you supposedly adventured with in the previous game is a nice, logical way to connect the two games. Including Ajantis and Faldorn like that, with no way to comment on how you actually know those people, isn't really continuity.

    Actually, I guess that's what I don't like with it. Because Faldorn and Ajantis should be continuity, but they really aren't. They're just... there. They are not continuing anything, just briefly connecting the two games.

    There's no retconning though, at least AFAIK.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Faldorn kinda comes out of nowhere, I'll grant. But Ajantis is the single most likely NPC to actually be in Amn. Its where he actually lives.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    ThacoBell said:

    Faldorn kinda comes out of nowhere, I'll grant. But Ajantis is the single most likely NPC to actually be in Amn. Its where he actually lives.

    Granted vanilla said Waterdeep IIRC, so that was retconned.

    The spider lady (always forget her name) was retconned too to tie Irenicus into the first game. No where was she mentioned in his backstory from the second game and it contradicts him having another lover than Ellesime.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @deltago I don't recall there ever being a Waterdeep connection, but Ajantis is also my second least used npc so its certainly possible.

    As for Centeol (the spider lady), in vanilla and charmed, she will mention a "Jon Icarus". So there is a tenuous connection, but not a solid one.
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    edited January 2018
    ThacoBell said:

    @deltago I don't recall there ever being a Waterdeep connection, but Ajantis is also my second least used npc so its certainly possible.

    As for Centeol (the spider lady), in vanilla and charmed, she will mention a "Jon Icarus". So there is a tenuous connection, but not a solid one.

    Ajantis is from Waterdeep in vanilla. This is even expanded by the widely used BG1NPC mod. His relation to Amn is through his service for Helm by which he is bound to the temple in Athkatla. His teacher/mentor is Keldorn there. His SoA contents is provided by a mod that continues his BG1NPC contents into BG2.

    The Centeol stuff again is vanilla contents that was expanded further by BG1NPC mod to mention Jon Irenicus. In the Sandrah Saga part3 you finally will see the connection:
    Centeol was another elf when Bodhi and Irenicus were still elves. She was a friend of Bodhi and secretly in love with Irenicus. The mage however had only eyes for Ellesime. Bodhi's efforts in favour of Centeol failed.


    A lot of mod contents is build on unused/unearthed vanilla contents. There was a lot of stuff left in game files that never appeared during play but that was found by modders and brought back for use. When the original game was published, nobody really cleaned up the game from unised files...
    There were even planned quests and NPCs etc that were never pursued. Modders reused them, expanded them. Old classic mods like NTotSC are build from such material.

    As such, the OP is only partly correct as far as BG is concerned - there is a lot of hidden stuff in BG1. Sometimes BG2 was making references or use of that with the devs forgetting that the BG1 contents wasn't in the published game.
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    edited January 2018
    ThacoBell said:

    @deltago I don't recall there ever being a Waterdeep connection, but Ajantis is also my second least used npc so its certainly possible.

    As for Centeol (the spider lady), in vanilla and charmed, she will mention a "Jon Icarus". So there is a tenuous connection, but not a solid one.

    It's not tenuous. Jon Icarus/Irenicus was taken from the same PnP campaign that Minsc, Sarevok, Edwin, Xan, et al. came from.

    'Ross Gardner played Jon Icarus, the character who later inspired Baldur's Gate II villain Joneleth Irenicus. “I changed [the name] because of its connection with Greek mythology,” says Ohlen.'

    http://blog.beamdog.com/2017/12/six-siders-space-hamsters.html
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    redline said:

    DrakeICN said:


    Jon Snow being of noble dragon lord origin = hand me a bucket!


    This was heavily foreshadowed by the books, so much so that many fans pieced it together well before it was revealed in the show. I agree with your overall point but this is a bad example.
    This was heavily foreshadowed in the first book ("Promise me, Ned").
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited January 2018
    Jon Snow's origin was definitely NOT a retcon.

    Rogue One, on the other hand, was both a retcon (from Dark Forces) and connected plot points that didn't really need to be connected for the larger narrative. But it was still a great movie. So I think your claim that it is "invariably" bad is rubbish.

    It is a bit of a lazy way of writing - rather than come up with an original plot, simply write a story to connect existing plot points. And the new Alien movies are certainly rubbish. The bioweapon idea has been a fan theory since the first movie came out, but I would call it far too obvious to be interesting. I didn't much care for the shoehorning of BG1 NPCs into BG2 either.

    So I will settle for saying it "sometimes" makes the story less interesting.
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Fardragon said:


    Rogue One, on the other hand, was both a retcon (from Dark Forces) and connected plot points that didn't really need to be connected for the larger narrative. But it was still a great movie. So I think your claim that it is "invariably" bad is rubbish.

    No, it was not. It was made very clear in the movies that the rebels managed to steal a copy of the death star blueprints. This movie was simply telling that story. There is a, sometimes subtle, difference between connecting dots and overconnecting dots. It is like explaining the difference between being charming and swarmy. Not always easy to specify, but you know the difference when you see it played out in action.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Kyle Katarn stole the Death Star blueprints.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    From what I know, that game isn't canon. Or at least, is not canon anymore.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    O_Bruce said:

    From what I know, that game isn't canon. Or at least, is not canon anymore.

    Thats my big problem with the new Star Wars movies. They toss everything out that isn't the original movies or the prequels. Most of my favorite Star Wars moments and stories are from the old EU. So the new Disney stuff just feels like a big fat middle finger to me.
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 858
    edited January 2018
    Overconnection is more likely to happen in an interquel than it is in a sequel or full-on prequel, mostly because interquels tend more towards making those references in the first place (prequels can fall into this trap as well, but not nearly as strongly since they're only pulling from one direction).

    I could go on at length about this using Rise From The Ashes (the 5th case in the DS port of Ace Attorney 1) as an example, but it would be summarized as "when does 'wink wink nudge nudge say no more' stop making sense within the story?"
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    ThacoBell said:

    O_Bruce said:

    From what I know, that game isn't canon. Or at least, is not canon anymore.

    Thats my big problem with the new Star Wars movies. They toss everything out that isn't the original movies or the prequels. Most of my favorite Star Wars moments and stories are from the old EU. So the new Disney stuff just feels like a big fat middle finger to me.
    Even before Disney the EU wasn't "G-canon" (i.e., George Lucas canon). As George Lucas himself stated:

    "There are two worlds here. There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."

    And George did disregard the EU when it suited him. For example, George didn't use Zahn's Spaarti cloning cylinders in Attack of the Clones. He came up with a different cloning technology that the clones grow at an accelerated rate through childhood and adolescence.

    If George still owned Lucasfilm and was producing Episodes VII, VIII, and IX, he wouldn't be caring about treading on EU continuity either.
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    I don't mind that the old EU got de-canoned. I still enjoy some of it, and the books are still here.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    O_Bruce said:

    From what I know, that game isn't canon. Or at least, is not canon anymore.

    It used to be canon (Kyle Katarn crops up occasionally in other legends-EU sources). It isn't canon now, Rogue One is canon. Ergo Rogue One is a retcon. I don't have a problem with that, but trying to prove a thesis by frantically trying to rule out exceptions isn't good thinking. It's better to avoid thinking in a absolutes in the first instance.
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    Dark Forces was never primary canon, however. Only the movies were.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Doesn't matter, the old EU had about 4 different levels of canon. It's still looking for excuses to exclude any evidence that doesn't fit the initial hypthesis, rather than modifying the hypothesis to fit the evidence.

    It's something humans do a lot, which is why it's important to challenge that kind of thinking at every opportunity.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    redline said:

    DrakeICN said:


    Jon Snow being of noble dragon lord origin = hand me a bucket!


    This was heavily foreshadowed by the books, so much so that many fans pieced it together well before it was revealed in the show. I agree with your overall point but this is a bad example.
    I was going to say the same. The tv series, however, I think handled that plotline disappointingly badly.
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