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Poll: Worst/Most Hated Star Wars Character

13

Comments

  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    Holdo

    I believe the only things that are canon anymore are the films and (of all things) the Clone Wars animated series.

    Also the Rebels series, some of the newer books, and the various Marvel comics that have come out since TFA.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,394
    Jar Jar Binks
    @jjstraka34 what heppened to the expanded universe is my entire motivation for hating Disney's buying of Star Wars. I'm one of those weirdos who enjoy the EU just as much, if not more, than the original films.

    mashedtaters
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 8,732
    Jar Jar Binks
    Some of it was good, but everything from Jedi Academy up until Vector Prime was PRETTY bad. Of course, the whole New Jedi Order was basically one big story and I had simply read far too many Star Wars books at that point to keep going.

    The Crystal Star, Children of the Jedi and Planet of Twilight were especially awful. Darksaber was ok. The Black Fleet Crisis was better than it had any right to be. But honestly, the best stuff from that original run besides Zahn's 5 books was the Han Solo Trilogy.

    Oh, and the Bounty Hunter Wars was also an incredibly disappointing series of books.

  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,243
    Other (Specify)
    Anyone wonder how the whole point of the first six episodes now fits into the films?
    The whole point was that Abikin himself would “bring balance to the force.”
    How is that officially being rationalized? I had figured that when Darth Vader and Palpatine died, the last of the Sith Lords has been killed and the Light side of the force was going be fostered by Luke.
    Instead Luke has just been a hobo living in isolation for no good reason.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,394
    Jar Jar Binks
    @mashedtaters That same problem crops up with every bit of the EU set after RotJ.

    mashedtaters
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,243
    Other (Specify)
    I guess the real questions to ask are:
    what does “balance” mean?
    and if “balance” was indeed an ambiguous term that could have meant anything, why were the Jedi so bent on attaining it?

    ThacoBell
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    Holdo

    Anyone wonder how the whole point of the first six episodes now fits into the films?
    The whole point was that Abikin himself would “bring balance to the force.”
    How is that officially being rationalized? I had figured that when Darth Vader and Palpatine died, the last of the Sith Lords has been killed and the Light side of the force was going be fostered by Luke.
    Instead Luke has just been a hobo living in isolation for no good reason.

    Well, one reason could be that because Luke tried to restart the Jedi Order he disturbed the balance that existed after killing off the Sith.

    It might even have factored into his desire to "see the Jedi end"

  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    Holdo

    . But honestly, the best stuff from that original run besides Zahn's 5 books was the Han Solo Trilogy.

    The X-Wing books were excellent imho. Great blend of action, intrigue, politics, and espionage.

    Zahn's best accomplishment was Palleon. That guy's "White Man's Burden" view of human-alien actually made support for the Empire believable.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 8,732
    edited March 2018
    Jar Jar Binks

    . But honestly, the best stuff from that original run besides Zahn's 5 books was the Han Solo Trilogy.

    The X-Wing books were excellent imho. Great blend of action, intrigue, politics, and espionage.

    Zahn's best accomplishment was Palleon. That guy's "White Man's Burden" view of human-alien actually made support for the Empire believable.
    Well I have to correct myself, because I never did read even one X-Wing book, probably because they just gave off this "technical" vibe. And the fact that the space dog fights were never really my favorite part of the movies, and I was even less interested in a series that, at least on the surface and how they were marketed, seemed to be exclusively about that. I know now that isn't the case, but I just never picked one up. I had pretty much the whole collection at a certain point in time, but I sort of just erased them from the equation in my mind for whatever reason. They seemed more like a spin-off than part of the main story I was following (and the EU did at least pay some lip service to previous events in other books).

  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,510
    Other (Specify)
    I wonder what it would have been like if Michael Jackson had actually been Jar Jar
    https://rollingstone.com/music/news/michael-jackson-wanted-to-play-jar-jar-binks-in-star-wars-20150724
    Probably at least as awful...

    mashedtaters
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Rose
    All thie discussion because a sizeable number of the audience didn'y buy what was on screen.

    Here's an idea, make the writing better.

    Radical huh?

    The most amusing thing in some ways is that those who have attacked Disney for years have now become their ardent defenders because they bung a few quasi females in their films.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,373
    Other (Specify)
    Well, I liked the writing. I've seen schlocky writing many times, but I haven't seen it in the last three Star Wars movies.

    ThacoBell
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Rose

    Well, I liked the writing. I've seen schlocky writing many times, but I haven't seen it in the last three Star Wars movies.

    Good for you, where did I suggest people didn't?

    What is so radical about asking for better writing so that more people buy into what is being sold?
    A few things, like give a few reasons for events on screen that so that those who currently feel the story isn't very coherent start to believe it is?
    How would that affect your enjoyment?

    I'm really not seeing the point you are making.

    Here's something pretty uncontroversial.
    Why didn't Holdo tell Poe of her plan?
    Nobody has ever suggested she did.

    I don't want to hear your theory because that maybe incorrect. I'd like to watch the writers reason depicted.

    mashedtaters
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,373
    Other (Specify)
    My guess is that the reason why Holdo didn't explain herself to Poe is the same reason the CEO of a company doesn't stop to explain high-level strategy to a low-ranking employee who confronts them in the hall: the CEO is busy, and the low-ranking employee doesn't have any say in the final decision anyway. Holdo's job is to make plans and give orders; Poe's job is to fly ships and shoot bad guys.

    Like most people, Poe does a good job when he does his own job, and fails when he tries to do someone else's.

    StummvonBordwehrBalrog99lolien
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,510
    Other (Specify)
    How about Count Dooku?

    Just kidding, like I could diss the actor whose image is my avatar right now ;)

    In all seriousness, it's Anakin, for me. Not even the childhood Anakin, but the one that turned and killed the kids at the Jedi temple. His slide just happened too fast for me to accept. He went from taking revenge on the sand people for murdering his mother and stopping Mace Windu from killing Palpatine so he could save Padme to straight up murdering children. Plus we had to wait for Rogue One to see the scene we really wanted, just Vader messing people up. It wasn't even a minute long, but was exactly the scene the prequels left me hungry for. The prequels just reveal Vader to be a whiny brat, nobody needed that.

    I wonder how things would have been if Michael Jackson had played Jar Jar Binks. He was originally planned to play him. https://rollingstone.com/music/news/michael-jackson-wanted-to-play-jar-jar-binks-in-star-wars-20150724

    ThacoBelllolien
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,243
    Other (Specify)
    Better writing might not look like a carbon copy of someone else’s work.

    Can’t speak to The Last Jedi, but that is what The Force Awakens is.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 8,732
    Jar Jar Binks

    How about Count Dooku?

    Just kidding, like I could diss the actor whose image is my avatar right now ;)

    In all seriousness, it's Anakin, for me. Not even the childhood Anakin, but the one that turned and killed the kids at the Jedi temple. His slide just happened too fast for me to accept. He went from taking revenge on the sand people for murdering his mother and stopping Mace Windu from killing Palpatine so he could save Padme to straight up murdering children. Plus we had to wait for Rogue One to see the scene we really wanted, just Vader messing people up. It wasn't even a minute long, but was exactly the scene the prequels left me hungry for. The prequels just reveal Vader to be a whiny brat, nobody needed that.

    I wonder how things would have been if Michael Jackson had played Jar Jar Binks. He was originally planned to play him. https://rollingstone.com/music/news/michael-jackson-wanted-to-play-jar-jar-binks-in-star-wars-20150724

    I actually never liked Count Dooku at all. I thought his outfit was ridiculous and the entire idea was half-baked. Christopher Lee is great, and he did what he always did, turning in a solid performance, but that couldn't save the character. Plus they were clearly winking at his countless portrayals of Dracula but.....why?? The thing is, I saw these prequel movies multiple times each when they came out in the theater, and now I can barely sit though them. Even "Revenge of the Sith", which I legitimately thought was a good movie for years, doesn't really hold up, aside the portrayal of Palpatine.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,394
    Jar Jar Binks
    Count Dooku is a LOT like Irenicus. A premise that could have been a lot more interesting, but wasn't implemented super well, but saved by an amazing actor.

    lolienBelgarathMTH
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Rose

    My guess is that the reason why Holdo didn't explain herself to Poe is the same reason the CEO of a company doesn't stop to explain high-level strategy to a low-ranking employee who confronts them in the hall: the CEO is busy, and the low-ranking employee doesn't have any say in the final decision anyway. Holdo's job is to make plans and give orders; Poe's job is to fly ships and shoot bad guys.

    Like most people, Poe does a good job when he does his own job, and fails when he tries to do someone else's.

    So once again, and I'm afraid TLJ does this a lot, leaves it to the viewer to fill in the gaps.

    What makes it worse in TLJ is that later what has not been adquately explained is then used as a major plot device.
    And then insults the audience by pretending that the "hyperspace destruction scene" was just something that grew naturally from the story rather than being a contrived spectacle.

    So TLJ
    Holdo gives no reasons for the actions.
    Poe reacts to the actions.

    Can you really not see how that is just contrived and lazy writing?

    I credit you and others commenting here with enough intelligence to understand the point of all the above.
    To give the filmaker the opportunity of "filming" the hyperspace fleet destruction, not story telling.
    You would have to have never seen any film before not to pick that up.


  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    Holdo
    Does anyone else here like The Force Awakens but loathe The Last Jedi?

    gugulug5000
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,373
    edited March 2018
    Other (Specify)


    So once again, and I'm afraid TLJ does this a lot, leaves it to the viewer to fill in the gaps.

    Ideally, yes, an author should be able to cover these gaps on their own. But explaining these things generally isn't very interesting to do in-story. For example:

    Q: Why didn't Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader use the Force to try to turn off each other's light sabers?

    A: Most light saber duels do involve each user trying to click the button on the other guy's light saber. It's hard to see, but whenever two people are dueling with light sabers, they're constantly trying to turn off their opponent's light saber, but the Force also allows them to thwart the other guy's attempts to turn off their light saber by shielding the little button that turns off the saber.

    It's a valid question about something that doesn't make sense, but few people would really be interested in hearing Obi-Wan explain to Luke why something isn't happening.

    lolien
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,394
    Jar Jar Binks
    Have you ever watched a movie/tv show that explains EVERYTHING to the viewer? It slows everything down and ruins the pacing, Anime is TERRIBLE at this. Its always a breath of fresh air when a show or movie respects the viewers intelligence enough to put the details together on their own for minor details.

    AstroBryGuylolien
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Rose
    ThacoBell said:

    Have you ever watched a movie/tv show that explains EVERYTHING to the viewer? It slows everything down and ruins the pacing, Anime is TERRIBLE at this. Its always a breath of fresh air when a show or movie respects the viewers intelligence enough to put the details together on their own for minor details.

    I don't watch Anime so can't comment.

    And it could be equally said that it's only when viewers are intelligent enough or well read enough, that they notice the flaws.

    That said, plenty of books/films ect. do as you say. Why do you assume my critism is based on whether this particular work does that or not because I have never enjoyed or admired other works which leave out details?

    One of my favourite authors is William Faulkner. He not only leaves out details, his books are arse over elbow when it comes to following a cohesive narrative that as a reader is easily grasped and followed. I have honestly read a work by him where even as much as 1/2 or 3/4 way through the book, I still didn't understand the narrative. But then he's a genius and suddenly it all clicks together.
    You are left breathless at the audacity and sheer creativity of the way he has created and conveyed the story, the themes, whatever he wanted to convey.

    Pointing out similarities with good writing when talking about bad writing doesn't change that the writing, being considered in comparison, is poor.
    You might as well say,
    "well look, they are both written in English, they use the same words".

    gugulug5000
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414
    Other (Specify)

    My guess is that the reason why Holdo didn't explain herself to Poe is the same reason the CEO of a company doesn't stop to explain high-level strategy to a low-ranking employee who confronts them in the hall: the CEO is busy, and the low-ranking employee doesn't have any say in the final decision anyway. Holdo's job is to make plans and give orders; Poe's job is to fly ships and shoot bad guys.

    Like most people, Poe does a good job when he does his own job, and fails when he tries to do someone else's.

    So once again, and I'm afraid TLJ does this a lot, leaves it to the viewer to fill in the gaps.

    What makes it worse in TLJ is that later what has not been adquately explained is then used as a major plot device.
    And then insults the audience by pretending that the "hyperspace destruction scene" was just something that grew naturally from the story rather than being a contrived spectacle.

    So TLJ
    Holdo gives no reasons for the actions.
    Poe reacts to the actions.

    Can you really not see how that is just contrived and lazy writing?
    No, it's just a realistic situation that the commanding officer isn't going get into an argument and justify her orders with a junior officer - one who doesn't need to know the plan yet and who the previous CO just demoted for disobeying a direct order (Tell me disobeying a direct order from your CO isn't a thing in a military organization. Poe's lucky he isn't the brig.).

    Story-wise, it keeps the audience knowing as much as Poe knows. Poe doesn't know who Holdo is, what her plan is, if there *is* a plan... This leads the audience to agree with his decision to launch a rogue covert op and mutiny. If Poe was going against Leia, or even Ackbar, the audience would be much less likely to agree with Poe. They'd be thinking "Why doesn't this idiot trust Leia?" Having Holdo be in command allows the audience to see things from Poe's point-of-view. Holdo is there to serve Poe's arc, as he evolves from a "hero" to a "leader".

    ThacoBellsemiticgodlolien
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,394
    Jar Jar Binks
    @UnderstandMouseMagic I'm not assuming your critisicm is based on this, I'm just replying to your most recent criticism.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Rose

    My guess is that the reason why Holdo didn't explain herself to Poe is the same reason the CEO of a company doesn't stop to explain high-level strategy to a low-ranking employee who confronts them in the hall: the CEO is busy, and the low-ranking employee doesn't have any say in the final decision anyway. Holdo's job is to make plans and give orders; Poe's job is to fly ships and shoot bad guys.

    Like most people, Poe does a good job when he does his own job, and fails when he tries to do someone else's.

    So once again, and I'm afraid TLJ does this a lot, leaves it to the viewer to fill in the gaps.

    What makes it worse in TLJ is that later what has not been adquately explained is then used as a major plot device.
    And then insults the audience by pretending that the "hyperspace destruction scene" was just something that grew naturally from the story rather than being a contrived spectacle.

    So TLJ
    Holdo gives no reasons for the actions.
    Poe reacts to the actions.

    Can you really not see how that is just contrived and lazy writing?
    No, it's just a realistic situation that the commanding officer isn't going get into an argument and justify her orders with a junior officer - one who doesn't need to know the plan yet and who the previous CO just demoted for disobeying a direct order (Tell me disobeying a direct order from your CO isn't a thing in a military organization. Poe's lucky he isn't the brig.).

    Story-wise, it keeps the audience knowing as much as Poe knows. Poe doesn't know who Holdo is, what her plan is, if there *is* a plan... This leads the audience to agree with his decision to launch a rogue covert op and mutiny. If Poe was going against Leia, or even Ackbar, the audience would be much less likely to agree with Poe. They'd be thinking "Why doesn't this idiot trust Leia?" Having Holdo be in command allows the audience to see things from Poe's point-of-view. Holdo is there to serve Poe's arc, as he evolves from a "hero" to a "leader".
    So you admit then that introducing Holdo was a plot device being used because,

    " If Poe was going against Leia, or even Ackbar, the audience would be much less likely to agree with Poe".

    And we need the audience to agree with Poe because.....???

    Hang on, hang on, I get it, it wasn't the character who needed an arc, it was the audience.
    So clumsy fourth wall breaking.

    So the writer used a "plot device" that is easily identified and yet the writing is still not considered poor?

    What actually would it take?

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Rose
    ThacoBell said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic I'm not assuming your critisicm is based on this, I'm just replying to your most recent criticism.

    "Its always a breath of fresh air when a show or movie respects the viewers intelligence enough to put the details together on their own for minor details."

    This goes no way to answering my critisism.
    It's a generalised statement coached in terms that encourages the reader to agree with it.
    Very positive, very upbeat.

    "fresh air thinking", and an assumption of viewers intelligence.

    Let's try this one,,

    "It's always a mistake when a show or movie underestimates the viewers' intelligence to see details that make the narrative incohesive".

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,394
    Jar Jar Binks
    @UnderstandMouseMagic Would the movie have been better if everything had stopped and Holdo turned to the person next to them and said,"I'm not explaining anything to Poe because I am his surperior officer and its his job to follow orders."? I think its entirely fair for a movie to assume that the average moviegoer understands how chain of command works. Your bosses don't tell you everything at work, and you are expected to follow direction anyway.

  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 884
    edited March 2018
    Jar Jar Binks
    @UnderstandMouseMagic
    I fully agree on William Faulkner being a genius - the Nobel Prize commitee even agrees with us. But if we have William Faulknerish expectations for a film manuscript for sci fi movie in its 8. installement, we are bound for dissapointment.. imho

    Personally I dont think that compairing movies and books is fair. At least my taste in books is way more elitarian than my taste in movies (preferring the classics and Nobel prize winners in books - and having seen all 4 installments of the scorpion king...). Most movies just give you entertainmant for a couple of hours whilst books can leave you pondering for days, weeks or even years.

    The movie producers do their best to make a great movie, and easily slices 30 minuttes of the movie and alters the ending. For some an imersion breaking intrucion, for some a much needed way out of 30 minuttes of the director mansplaining the plot into the most minute details, but for most its just more entertaining that way.

    Imo Disney is producing solid entertaiment - and I can live with the fact that they never will win the Palme d’Or or the gold bear for their movies.


    I voted Jar Jar Binks, because he imo just is that bad.. I think George Lucas’ fondness for comic relief and fuzzy animals got the better off him. A new hope was heavily inspired by Akira Kurosawas the hidden fortress, and the droids where inspired by the comic reflief in that movie. The result is quite good... but the difference between George Lucas and Akira Kurosawa is obvious: Jar Jar banks and a movie about some cute bears on Endor being the worst.

    ThacoBell
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