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Poll: Worst/Most Hated Star Wars Character

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Comments

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414
    edited March 2018
    Other (Specify)

    My guess is that the reason why Holdo didn't explain herself to Poe is the same reason the CEO of a company doesn't stop to explain high-level strategy to a low-ranking employee who confronts them in the hall: the CEO is busy, and the low-ranking employee doesn't have any say in the final decision anyway. Holdo's job is to make plans and give orders; Poe's job is to fly ships and shoot bad guys.

    Like most people, Poe does a good job when he does his own job, and fails when he tries to do someone else's.

    So once again, and I'm afraid TLJ does this a lot, leaves it to the viewer to fill in the gaps.

    What makes it worse in TLJ is that later what has not been adquately explained is then used as a major plot device.
    And then insults the audience by pretending that the "hyperspace destruction scene" was just something that grew naturally from the story rather than being a contrived spectacle.

    So TLJ
    Holdo gives no reasons for the actions.
    Poe reacts to the actions.

    Can you really not see how that is just contrived and lazy writing?
    No, it's just a realistic situation that the commanding officer isn't going get into an argument and justify her orders with a junior officer - one who doesn't need to know the plan yet and who the previous CO just demoted for disobeying a direct order (Tell me disobeying a direct order from your CO isn't a thing in a military organization. Poe's lucky he isn't the brig.).

    Story-wise, it keeps the audience knowing as much as Poe knows. Poe doesn't know who Holdo is, what her plan is, if there *is* a plan... This leads the audience to agree with his decision to launch a rogue covert op and mutiny. If Poe was going against Leia, or even Ackbar, the audience would be much less likely to agree with Poe. They'd be thinking "Why doesn't this idiot trust Leia?" Having Holdo be in command allows the audience to see things from Poe's point-of-view. Holdo is there to serve Poe's arc, as he evolves from a "hero" to a "leader".
    So you admit then that introducing Holdo was a plot device being used because,

    " If Poe was going against Leia, or even Ackbar, the audience would be much less likely to agree with Poe".

    And we need the audience to agree with Poe because.....???

    Hang on, hang on, I get it, it wasn't the character who needed an arc, it was the audience.
    So clumsy fourth wall breaking.

    So the writer used a "plot device" that is easily identified and yet the writing is still not considered poor?

    What actually would it take?
    Yes, I admit it. Supporting characters are there to serve the narrative. Why is that so shocking?

    And, yes, the audience often gets to follow a character on their arc, learning information with that character. That's not fourth-wall breaking; it's just a standard literary device. Would Sixth Sense be as good if it was made clear from the start that Bruce Willis' character was dead when talking to the kid? [EDIT: Apologies to the reader if you haven't seen the Sixth Sense.]

    In Empire Strikes Back, Luke needed to be trained as a Jedi, but Lucas had a problem. He had axed Obi-Wan at the end of Star Wars. So, he introduced Yoda, a never-before-mentioned Jedi Master who was waiting for Luke (or Leia) on Dagobah ("This one, a long time have I watched."). Introducing Yoda was a plot device to train Luke as a Jedi. Does that make the The Empire Strikes Back bad writing?

    Continuing with the example from Empire: to keep the audience in Luke's POV, we aren't shown beforehand that the green Muppet in the swamp is Yoda, and that Yoda is testing Luke with his "crazy swamp dweller" act. Would those scenes from Empire have been as good as they are if Lucas had added a scene of Yoda talking to Obi-Wan's Force ghost before Luke arrives laying out his plan to test Luke by pretending to be crazy old Muppet? No, the audience wouldn't feel Luke's apprehension about this new character, knowing he is actually Yoda.

    In The Last Jedi, Rian Johnson put the Resistance into deep Bantha doo-doo by incapacitating its leader and killing much of the senior staff. It's not clumsy. It's a pretty standard plot device for creating tension - take out the leaders. Introducing Holdo helps to amp up that tension. She's an unknown to the main characters and the audience. Due to his lack of trust in Holdo, Poe acts rashly; he tries to be "the hero" because that's what he does. But at that moment, what the Resistance needs is a leader. Poe's arc shows him the difference.

    Could they have gone another way with Poe's arc? Of course. Rian Johnson originally had Poe go to Canto Bight with Finn & Rose, but decided it wasn't interesting.

    JoenSoThacoBellStummvonBordwehr
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,373
    Other (Specify)


    This goes no way to answering my critisism.

    Nobody's trying to disprove your argument, @UnderstandMouseMagic. A couple people might disagree with you, but we're not trying to prove you wrong.

    In general, I try to discourage people from "winning" debates with each other on the forum. Trying to prove oneself right or prove the other person wrong usually just drags out discussions and reduces them to semantics, leaving the participants frustrated and everyone else bored.

    ThacoBellBalrog99Nonnahswriterlolien
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Rose
    ThacoBell said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic Would the movie have been better if everything had stopped and Holdo turned to the person next to them and said,"I'm not explaining anything to Poe because I am his surperior officer and its his job to follow orders."? I think its entirely fair for a movie to assume that the average moviegoer understands how chain of command works. Your bosses don't tell you everything at work, and you are expected to follow direction anyway.

    I don't know much about the military, but often what's portrayed in films is a very high ranking officer giving some sort of overall order/direction then turning it over to less senior officers to explain the detail.
    Can think of dozens of films and TV shows that have that scenario.

    Your bosses don't tell you everything at work because no boss is asking/expecting you to be killed in the execution of your work.
    To compare the two is laughable.

    You talk about the "chain of command", OK, so why has the "chain of command" broken down in TLJ so badly that it comes to mutiny?
    Where is the "chain of command"?
    Where is this chain that links every single person in this volunteer military (and remembering that it's volunteer is very important) that portrays those in the chain not knowing anybody else in the chain?

    And as the military is not the bad guy that's always assumed it is by left leaning intellectuals, they have to accomodate the ranks need to trust and to follow their orders. And so the high ranking members show their faces, make an effort with their troops. They are not dictators otherwise they would end up with no volunteers enlisting.
    The important word here is follow.

    The average moviegoing does not understand the military, not at all.
    They have been fed a diet of liberal/left propaganda that armies turn people into mindlesss baby killers.

    And this film uses that bollox but instead of being against it (as usually portrayed) it now tells me, an audience member with a memory, that that's all good.
    Of course the troops should be mindless automaton who obey (not follow) orders without question.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,394
    Jar Jar Binks
    @UnderstandMouseMagic "
    You talk about the "chain of command", OK, so why has the "chain of command" broken down in TLJ so badly that it comes to mutiny?
    Where is the "chain of command"?"

    Hence Poe's character arc. He was a danger to his own side because he resfused orders in dangerous situations.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Rose

    My guess is that the reason why Holdo didn't explain herself to Poe is the same reason the CEO of a company doesn't stop to explain high-level strategy to a low-ranking employee who confronts them in the hall: the CEO is busy, and the low-ranking employee doesn't have any say in the final decision anyway. Holdo's job is to make plans and give orders; Poe's job is to fly ships and shoot bad guys.

    Like most people, Poe does a good job when he does his own job, and fails when he tries to do someone else's.

    So once again, and I'm afraid TLJ does this a lot, leaves it to the viewer to fill in the gaps.

    What makes it worse in TLJ is that later what has not been adquately explained is then used as a major plot device.
    And then insults the audience by pretending that the "hyperspace destruction scene" was just something that grew naturally from the story rather than being a contrived spectacle.

    So TLJ
    Holdo gives no reasons for the actions.
    Poe reacts to the actions.

    Can you really not see how that is just contrived and lazy writing?
    No, it's just a realistic situation that the commanding officer isn't going get into an argument and justify her orders with a junior officer - one who doesn't need to know the plan yet and who the previous CO just demoted for disobeying a direct order (Tell me disobeying a direct order from your CO isn't a thing in a military organization. Poe's lucky he isn't the brig.).

    Story-wise, it keeps the audience knowing as much as Poe knows. Poe doesn't know who Holdo is, what her plan is, if there *is* a plan... This leads the audience to agree with his decision to launch a rogue covert op and mutiny. If Poe was going against Leia, or even Ackbar, the audience would be much less likely to agree with Poe. They'd be thinking "Why doesn't this idiot trust Leia?" Having Holdo be in command allows the audience to see things from Poe's point-of-view. Holdo is there to serve Poe's arc, as he evolves from a "hero" to a "leader".
    So you admit then that introducing Holdo was a plot device being used because,

    " If Poe was going against Leia, or even Ackbar, the audience would be much less likely to agree with Poe".

    And we need the audience to agree with Poe because.....???

    Hang on, hang on, I get it, it wasn't the character who needed an arc, it was the audience.
    So clumsy fourth wall breaking.

    So the writer used a "plot device" that is easily identified and yet the writing is still not considered poor?

    What actually would it take?
    Yes, I admit it. Supporting characters are there to serve the narrative. Why is that so shocking?

    And, yes, the audience often gets to follow a character on their arc, learning information with that character. That's not fourth-wall breaking; it's just a standard literary device. Would Sixth Sense be as good if it was made clear from the start that Bruce Willis' character was dead when talking to the kid? [EDIT: Apologies to the reader if you haven't seen the Sixth Sense.]

    In Empire Strikes Back, Luke needed to be trained as a Jedi, but Lucas had a problem. He had axed Obi-Wan at the end of Star Wars. So, he introduced Yoda, a never-before-mentioned Jedi Master who was waiting for Luke (or Leia) on Dagobah ("This one, a long time have I watched."). Introducing Yoda was a plot device to train Luke as a Jedi. Does that make the The Empire Strikes Back bad writing?

    Continuing with the example from Empire: to keep the audience in Luke's POV, we aren't shown beforehand that the green Muppet in the swamp is Yoda, and that Yoda is testing Luke with his "crazy swamp dweller" act. Would those scenes from Empire have been as good as they are if Lucas had added a scene of Yoda talking to Obi-Wan's Force ghost before Luke arrives laying out his plan to test Luke by pretending to be crazy old Muppet? No, the audience wouldn't feel Luke's apprehension about this new character, knowing he is actually Yoda.

    In The Last Jedi, Rian Johnson put the Resistance into deep Bantha doo-doo by incapacitating its leader and killing much of the senior staff. It's not clumsy. It's a pretty standard plot device for creating tension - take out the leaders. Introducing Holdo helps to amp up that tension. She's an unknown to the main characters and the audience. Due to his lack of trust in Holdo, Poe acts rashly; he tries to be "the hero" because that's what he does. But at that moment, what the Resistance needs is a leader. Poe's arc shows him the difference.

    Could they have gone another way with Poe's arc? Of course. Rian Johnson originally had Poe go to Canto Bight with Finn & Rose, but decided it wasn't interesting.
    It is made clear from the start that the Bruce Willis' character is a ghost in the sixth sense.
    How much information does it take, the wife not seeing him at dinner is the clincher.

    You are comparing the small amount of time Yoda pretends to be a "crazy swamp ghost" and doesn't tell Luke "to shut up and die along with everybody else because I'm boss" while still pretending to be a "crazy swamp monster", with Holdo as a plot device?
    That's stretching things.

    Lack of trust is a reasonable motivation for not following orders, especially when those who are asking for trust do nothing to earn it. Trust has to be one of the most important factors, particularly in a volunteer army made up of whoever is willing to join when they are in serious danger of being anihilated.
    What else has any commander ever had?

    That Johnsen felt himself incapable of writing an entertaining and engaging story/script because two characters get on so well says more I than ever could about his writing defeciences.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Rose


    This goes no way to answering my critisism.

    Nobody's trying to disprove your argument, @UnderstandMouseMagic. A couple people might disagree with you, but we're not trying to prove you wrong.

    In general, I try to discourage people from "winning" debates with each other on the forum. Trying to prove oneself right or prove the other person wrong usually just drags out discussions and reduces them to semantics, leaving the participants frustrated and everyone else bored.
    I think a few people here are trying to disprove the argument I am making that, IMO, the writing is poor.
    Good luck to them.

    Not entirely sure why this post has been directed at me (which I assume it is because you quoted my post).

    Couldn't exactly the same direction be given to those posters who are using argument and examples to prove that I am wrong in my conclusion that the writing is poor?
    Are they not trying to "win" by pulling in examples and parrallels to discount my arguments?

    I appreciate that of course arguments get dragged out, but that's kind of the internet writ large. I hardly think we have got to the point of discussing semantics when I have been told that the writer in question relied on the intelligence of the audience to write themselves what they couldn't be bothered to.

    You say you are a writer, well when something doesn't work, you rewrite it until it does or question whether the direction the story is taking matches all the information you provided. And if it doesn't, well maybe the story cannot take that direction based on what has come before. You don't leave to the reader to do what you have been incapable of surely?

    And that's particularly relevent with the film in question, it doesn't fit with what came immediately before in Force Awakens nor with the original trilogy.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Rose
    ThacoBell said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic "
    You talk about the "chain of command", OK, so why has the "chain of command" broken down in TLJ so badly that it comes to mutiny?
    Where is the "chain of command"?"

    Hence Poe's character arc. He was a danger to his own side because he resfused orders in dangerous situations.

    Do you mean when he was engaging the big ship at the beginning (can't remember the name, but let's not get bogged down on semantics)?
    How was that a danger to his own side, he had been told to do that.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,394
    Jar Jar Binks
    @UnderstandMouseMagic Are you sure The Sixth Sense made it clear Bruce Willis was a ghost? It is constantly cited as one of the greatest plot twists in cinema history.

    "Lack of trust is a reasonable motivation for not following orders"
    In what context? You follow your bosses orders, or you're fired. Trust is never a part of that equation.In some jobs "firefighting, commercial fishing, etc. refusing to follow orders gets people killed.

    "How was that a danger to his own side, he had been told to do that."

    when he went against orders.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Rose
    ThacoBell said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic Are you sure The Sixth Sense made it clear Bruce Willis was a ghost? It is constantly cited as one of the greatest plot twists in cinema history.

    "Lack of trust is a reasonable motivation for not following orders"
    In what context? You follow your bosses orders, or you're fired. Trust is never a part of that equation.In some jobs "firefighting, commercial fishing, etc. refusing to follow orders gets people killed.

    "How was that a danger to his own side, he had been told to do that."

    when he went against orders.

    I saw the film, knew there was a plot twist, spent the entire film waiting for it, found out that it was something which IMO was made clear from early on.
    It's not a big deal, I enjoyed the film anyway.
    But I dispute it's cited as "one of the greatest plot twists in cinema history".

    I gave you context and I pointed out that there was no comparison to be made between the military and something your boss tells you when it comes to trust.

    He was told to disengage, he turned off his communication and carried on and was proved correct with the help of the commanders on the bombers, who also must have ignored orders, when the big ship was destroyed.
    The big ship which would have destroyed the rebel fleet, (big ship was referred to as the fleet destroyer), and ended the film over 2 hours earlier.

    But here's the thing that's always overlooked when it comes to the argument that Poe, on his own, endangered the fleet.
    He didn't, all the bombers ignored the orders as well.
    Every commander on the bombers refused to disengage, they must have agreed with Poe or he was in charge of them.

    When you talk about chain of command, what actually are you talking about?
    Because in the first 10/15 minutes of the film, it's shown that Poe was the commander, the big boss. His orders either overode any other orders or the bomber command rebelled at that point.

    He should have told Leia to go shove her head in a bucket, he had more authority than her according to the fleet.
    We were shown he did, it's there on film.

    Square the circle, flyboy hotshot pilot who's a mere cog or Commander in charge of the fleet and the fleet carries out his orders as they should.

  • gugulug5000gugulug5000 Member Posts: 238
    edited March 2018
    Holdo
    Regarding Holdo not telling Poe the plan because "chain of command says that she doesn't have to," since that's about the only justification I have seen anyone make for it online: no, she doesn't HAVE to tell him, but yes, she SHOULD have told him, and that's what makes her stupid. Their first encounter, sure, dismiss him as a flyboy. When he comes back and makes a scene and demands to know if there is a plan, all she had to do was pull him aside, tell him her plan was more elaborate than it seems (or just tell him the whole plan!) and move on. No mutiny. Easy as that.

    I didn't think the Force Awakens was really good or bad honestly. It was just a copy of A New Hope, but that's kind of what the franchise needed at the time. It needed a safe movie to reassure fans after the prequels, and that's what it did. The Last Jedi, however, is just prequel level bad. It adds mostly uninteresting places/characters to the universe (Rose, Holdo, Canto Bight, DJ, etc) and takes a steaming dump on some of the existing ones (Luke, Ackbar, Snoke, Phasma). I honestly went in to the theater wanting to like it, but came out confused and disappointed, and then later after I had thought about it more, frustrated and annoyed. There was just nothing enjoyable about the movie (except the throne room fight).

    Usually when people make movies about failure, they at least have some deeper message. Examples, the movie 300 ends with them all dying, but the message is to stand firm and fight to the bitter end no matter the odds; Cool Runnings, ends with them tipping over their bobsled and not winning, but it shows it's not which place you get that matters, it's how you finish. The Last Jedi ends with most of the characters failing. Rey fails to be trained by Luke and fails to turn Kylo Ren, Fin and Rose fail to do anything of value in the movie and instead get their friends shot at, Poe fails to mutiny, etc. The underlying message? All I really get from it is "sometimes you fail" or in Poe's case, maybe trust authority. Why would I want to watch a movie about a bunch of people failing if there isn't even a good payoff?

    UnderstandMouseMagiclolienBelgarathMTH
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 8,732
    edited March 2018
    Jar Jar Binks
    ThacoBell said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic Are you sure The Sixth Sense made it clear Bruce Willis was a ghost? It is constantly cited as one of the greatest plot twists in cinema history.

    "Lack of trust is a reasonable motivation for not following orders"
    In what context? You follow your bosses orders, or you're fired. Trust is never a part of that equation.In some jobs "firefighting, commercial fishing, etc. refusing to follow orders gets people killed.

    "How was that a danger to his own side, he had been told to do that."

    when he went against orders.

    It's only clear Bruce Willis is a ghost in The Sixth Sense if you watch it again, which is like a whole different experience where all you are doing is looking for clues. If you don't immediately catch on when he is attacked at the beginning, it likely totally slips your mind. I'm not saying plenty of people didn't suspect it, but you'd have to be completely taken out of every other aspect of the movie for 90 minutes to see it. There is a reason it's viewed as one of the biggest curve balls in movie history, and it isn't because most people knew the whole time. It's way easier to make this claim about The Others than it is The Sixth Sense. Of course SOME people caught on, but The Sixth Sense was the biggest "spoiler" movie since Empire Strikes Back, in that you could completely ruin the entire movie for someone by telling them the secret.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,394
    Jar Jar Binks
    @UnderstandMouseMagic "But here's the thing that's always overlooked when it comes to the argument that Poe, on his own, endangered the fleet.
    He didn't, all the bombers ignored the orders as well.
    Every commander on the bombers refused to disengage, they must have agreed with Poe or he was in charge of them.

    When you talk about chain of command, what actually are you talking about?
    Because in the first 10/15 minutes of the film, it's shown that Poe was the commander, the big boss. His orders either overode any other orders or the bomber command rebelled at that point."

    Poe was the field commander. He recieves the message from central command (Holdo) who uses those orders to command the squads under him. He would be the only one who hears the orders from Holdo (to avoid confusing pilots with multiple layers of orders from multiple people). The squad leaders under Poe would then relay his orders (through them) to the fighters in their squads. Only Poe would have an open channel to Holdo, so the squads under him would be exempt from punishment for not following orders (because they can hear orders from the people immeidately above them).

    Context is also lost between channels so that orders can move out in a quick manner without extraneous details. Say for example: Earlier in a battle an enemy Star Destroyer was the main target and all the smaller fighter squads were ordered to to target it. Holdo, who oversees the entire battle and gets constant reports in from every squad has a larger picture for what is goign on. She sees that a new enemy fleet is coming in from the flank to defend the Star Destroyer, and leaves squads A-C open to massive casulties. Holdo would radio Poe (who gets constant updates on the squads under him) that enemy reinforcements are coming in on squad A-C. Poe's job would then be to tell the squad leaders of A-C udner him to break off from the attack and intercept the reinforcments. A little bit of contextual info is lost at each level, and the need for an order to be acted on quickly can save lives. Poe could cost the lives of every squad inder him if he fails to follow orders from higher up.

    Balrog99ronaldo
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    edited March 2018
    Rose
    ThacoBell said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic "But here's the thing that's always overlooked when it comes to the argument that Poe, on his own, endangered the fleet.
    He didn't, all the bombers ignored the orders as well.
    Every commander on the bombers refused to disengage, they must have agreed with Poe or he was in charge of them.

    When you talk about chain of command, what actually are you talking about?
    Because in the first 10/15 minutes of the film, it's shown that Poe was the commander, the big boss. His orders either overode any other orders or the bomber command rebelled at that point."

    Poe was the field commander. He recieves the message from central command (Holdo) who uses those orders to command the squads under him. He would be the only one who hears the orders from Holdo (to avoid confusing pilots with multiple layers of orders from multiple people). The squad leaders under Poe would then relay his orders (through them) to the fighters in their squads. Only Poe would have an open channel to Holdo, so the squads under him would be exempt from punishment for not following orders (because they can hear orders from the people immeidately above them).

    Context is also lost between channels so that orders can move out in a quick manner without extraneous details. Say for example: Earlier in a battle an enemy Star Destroyer was the main target and all the smaller fighter squads were ordered to to target it. Holdo, who oversees the entire battle and gets constant reports in from every squad has a larger picture for what is goign on. She sees that a new enemy fleet is coming in from the flank to defend the Star Destroyer, and leaves squads A-C open to massive casulties. Holdo would radio Poe (who gets constant updates on the squads under him) that enemy reinforcements are coming in on squad A-C. Poe's job would then be to tell the squad leaders of A-C udner him to break off from the attack and intercept the reinforcments. A little bit of contextual info is lost at each level, and the need for an order to be acted on quickly can save lives. Poe could cost the lives of every squad inder him if he fails to follow orders from higher up.

    Thankyou for explaining. :)
    But IMO, Poe did the right thing.


    They destroyed the fleet killer, they did the job they were supposed to.
    Bombers bomb things, that's what they are for.

    Why did the film ignore that when it suited the contrived "Poe's an arsehole" narrative.
    None of the bombers would have survived the "chase", none of the other ships did. And with that big ship, unlikely any ships would have.
    The order to withdraw when the defences were down on the big ship was a stupid order.

    What we saw on screen were some very slow moving ships that carried a lot of bombs with no defences.
    What are they for unless they did what we were shown they did?

    It's the same as the "Rose stopping Finn" scenario. The audience are supposed to forget two minutes later that Rose just ensured the rebels were destroyed because what?
    She wanted to molest Finn?
    And somehow now she's made the correct choice.

    Have a ship highlighted as a "fleet killer", emphasised as a "fleet killer", but when it suits the "story" let's ignore that.

    Edited to add

    I thought that the whole battle in space at the start of the film was a load of bollox from the off. That said, for myself I have tried to make some sense of it hence the above. Stupid fight, stupid ships, stupid tactics but it is what it is, so you have to try and make sense of the garbage.

    ThacoBellgugulug5000OrlonKronsteen
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 799
    Jar Jar Binks
    Well, I finally saw the movie. I didn't think much of it, but I still don't think it was nearly as bad as the prequels. The franchise has shifted from being a misguided product of Lucas's megalomania and artistic limitations, to a pure corporate entity. And Jar Jar still reigns supreme as the most irritating character in SW lore, IMO.

    Balrog99
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 6,288
    Jar Jar Binks
    I just saw the sequel to Pacific Rim and a lot of the same tropes are in that movie too. Young girl more skillful than people who trained their whole lives, racially diverse cast including nearly every race in the world (Native Americans excluded for some reason), and mega-corporation = ultimate-evil. Having said that, the girl had her head handed to her several times, the multi-racial aspect makes sense in regards to the global aspect of the threat and the corporation wasn't evil in and of itself but was infiltrated by alien intelligence. I rather enjoyed it despite what the critics said...

    OrlonKronsteenlolien
  • InKalInKal Member Posts: 149
    I have actually watched the movie yesterday LOL

    and I honestly must say that I like it very much.

    This is definitely the best Star Wars movie since Empire Strikes Back in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, Empire is a league better than this but imo there is so much inspiration by both Empire and the best parts of Return of the Jedi - a cave, confrontation with Snoke (almost like a rip-off) that I was really surprised, very pleasantly surprised.
    When Luke nonchalantly throwed away the lightsaber behind I was laughing for a good ten minutes - the look on Mark Hamill's face and the massive butthurt of starwars fanboys - priceless.
    Holdo was annoying actually. She is a minor character but she was filmed like the main protagonist almost. Movie would be better with Leia and meme Ackbar doing all this stuff she done.
    Much less emo almost macho Kaylo was kinda good.
    Daisy was actually trying to act this time, not STARE all the time.

    There was only one really horrible, face-palming scene with Yoda. That was really painful and stupid and I mean fucking stupid - book burning?? Really? Dear SWJs, book burning? Seriously??!! Just.... stop. Not like this. Jedi Order, jedi "religion" and the "elitism" was criticised by liberal writers for a long time calling for "jedi for every peasant nao" but not like this pls guys! guys!

    Overall surprisingly good and entertaining watch. 7/10

    lolien
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414
    Other (Specify)
    @InKal - FYI... Burn the books, Yoda did not.

    From Luke & Yoda's conversation:

    Luke: So it is time for the Jedi Order to end.

    Yoda: Time it is. For you to look past a pile of old books, hmm?

    Luke: The sacred Jedi texts.

    Yoda: Oh. Read them, have you? Page-turners they were not. Yes, yes, yes. Wisdom they held, but that library contains nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess. Skywalker, still looking to the horizon. Never here, now, hmm? The need in front of your nose.


    Then, aboard the Falcon, Finn looks in a drawer for a blanket for Rose and the Jedi books are there!



    As Yoda said, Rey already possessed the books. Yoda burned down an old tree.

    semiticgodlolienBelgarathMTH
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    Jar Jar Binks
    I found Jar-Jar to be an uncomfortable character to watch. An alien based on white colonial black stereo types has too much baggage ever to be funny..

    lolienThacoBellOrlonKronsteen
  • ArdanisArdanis Member Posts: 1,736
    edited April 2018
    Other (Specify)
    I don't see much problem with Jar-Jar, C3PO, Chewbacca, ewoks, porgs and what other comedy elements can you name. It's a kids series, for Christ's sake.

    Rose - a shy wrench girl from background who suddenly got noticed by sempai and dragged into spotlight. I generally very much hate the leftist trend to make "realistic" characters to appeal to all kinds of minorities nobody cares about, but with Rose it really hit the sweet spot of cute. Probably my most favorite character in the whole movie.

    Holdo - she and Leia both deserve credit for putting the rash and arrogant Poe back into his place, if for nothing else.

    Poe - I'm rather tempted to give him my vote for VIII. This macho boy overdosed on testosterone first disobeyed Leia's order to get his entire squad killed, and then Holdo's to get almost everyone else dead as well. The only reason I'm not doing so is because I see rebels as terrorist scum who should get disposed of. Because they mostly consist of Poes full of themselves.

    What really has thrown me off was the VII's lead trio - a psychotic emo boy with daddy issues cosplaying Severus Snape; a Mary Sue tomboy waif showing non-stop her teeth (heck, I seriously thought she was Kristen Stewart's sister or something, having recently seen Snowwhite and Huntsman!); and a black man in a movie where hardly any blacks were present at all (they kinda attended that in VIII, but it was too late).
    The amount of blatant pandering was simply too damn high to be an accident. I strongly suspect that maybe the entire point of VII was to pit these against the old lead trio (Hamill, Ford and Fisher), to make it pristine clear what the art has degenerated into today. Namely, I think one thing missing from Han vs Ben confrontation was the ghost of Han's own father looking at the scene with disdainful "Son I'm disappoint".

    PS I think my vote goes to Rey. Because she wouldn't stop baring her teeth even in her sleep.

    Post edited by semiticgod on
    tbone1gugulug5000mashedtaters
  • gugulug5000gugulug5000 Member Posts: 238
    Holdo
    In Poe's defense though, had he not destroyed the Dreadnought, it likely would have been game over for everyone. There has to be a reason they call it a "fleet killer." Had he not destroyed it, then it would have come along with the Supremacy, and probably would have destroyed all of their ships.

    Come to think of it, how did they track the rebels in the first place? The tracker was on the Supremacy and the Supremacy didn't show up until after they had already left (unless I'm remembering incorrectly). There is an absurd amount of plot holes in that movie.

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