As one of the ppl who did play BG back in the day pre-EE, but not at all as extensively as I've done post-EE, I don't even remember what @Grond0 writes. But it's true, a lot of the changes is for convenience (pause on inventory, item stacking etc) but also removes part of the flavor. For me personally, I prefer convenience though.
Looking at Grond0's list above actually make it look very balanced in the originals. You had to make choices and those choices mattered somewhat more than now. Thanks for sharing that Grond0. Interesting with the eagle bow giving STR damage as well!
Interesting with the eagle bow giving STR damage as well!
That specific point was always contentious. The bow gave strength damage, but it was an undocumented feature - so it was always questionable whether it was intended or not. I gleefully used the bow in the past of course, but the removal of the strength bonus seems more reasonable to me than its addition to daggers and slings.
I agree with you that the improved convenience is generally a good thing. However, with axes for instance the low stack sizes fitted well with the high weight - even characters with exceptional strength couldn't carry huge quantities of them. If we were considering convenience as the main goal it would also have been better to allow missile weapons to be put in quivers rather than quick weapon slots. One of the biggest dangers for me when using axes as a solo player in the past was the fact that when the stack runs out your character automatically rushes into melee combat - you can prevent that with autopause, but I dislike using any AI features when playing the game (I know that makes it my fault ).
@Chronicler it's a long time since I played vanilla BG1 (as opposed to BGT), so I can't swear to the behavior in that. Axes definitely got a strength bonus in vanilla BG2 (which BGEE used as the base for its engine).
Throwing daggers is greater than darts, with the str bonus and because you can use daggers in melee.
Now, I’m tired of char names with Strenght 19 who are supposed to be skinny guys. Such strength should be for dudes like Minsc and Dorn. That’s why darts matter.
Poison weapon has never been too realistic, but no less so than countless other mechanics in the game, such as reaching into your pack in the middle of melee for a potion, which you then somehow manage to uncork and drink while someone's trying to take your head off with a poleaxe.
Well, BG1 didn't actually let you do that. As long as you want to go back to the good old days, should Beamdog for the game to unpause when you are in the inventory screen?
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Out of curiosity would that be the sort of thing which could be easily restored? Sounds like a nice way to add a little more realism though it might end up being irritating without one or two UI changes.
I have realised that the secret for using darts is not to be a hoarder type of player. Got poison darts or darts of stunning? Have your rogue use them on every enemy instead of waiting for powerful ones, that will make you value both your rogue and her darts.
Seems like I might in the minority here. But I think darts are absolutely amazing. I built a level 7 fighter dualed to thief in BG1 / SOD using darts and single weapon style.
It was an amazing build. I was able to put four proficiency points (high mastery) into darts for the +4 damage, gauntlets of specialization for another +2 and using countless +1 darts at 4 apr per round. My damage range was 1d3+1, +4, +2. So a single dart had a minimum damage of 8. Assuming I did the minimum for each dart I was still at 8 x 4 = 32 minimum damage a round! Max possible damage was 40 damage a round non crits. So the ceiling isn't that high....but this is still just using simple + 1 darts.
It's gets stupid crazy when talking about elemental darts at a plus 1d6. If the targets make there saves, the worse case scenario is still 32 damage a round, but let's say max potential on max rolls = 64 damage a round! For darts on non crits.
Of course things get A little more consistent when you add in darts like Biter at 1d3+2, +1 acid (returning dart) so it ranges from 40 to 48 dmg per round on my build of a vanilla fighter/thief.
If you have a fighter dualed to mage using darts of wounding (20 poison damage in 20 seconds) with a luck spell you kill Saverok in a 3 rounds flat in BG1.
While darts aren't the end all be all, they have decent potential in BG1, SoD, and early BG2 (SoA)
In ToB you have access to to the Cloak of stars which gives you limited +5 darts, but typically l it's only enough for 2 rounds of combat. All other weapons will give a greater dps output at this point.
Unless a new patch removed it, it should still be possible to make those +5 darts permanent by dropping them off on the ground, in a container, selling them to a store, or perhaps temporarily kicking out a party member who's holding them to wait out the duration. Even without that trick, though, you can have up to 18 darts in a single rest period (create 6, rest, create 6, rest, create 6), which is enough to break through anything short of PFMW (or SCS' Absolute Immunity) as well as Stoneskins. For more reliable damage output from darts in BG2, you can use the Crimson Dart, available on the first level of Watcher's Keep at minimal risk.
Seems like I might in the minority here. But I think darts are absolutely amazing. I built a level 7 fighter dualed to thief in BG1 / SOD using darts and single weapon style.
It was an amazing build. I was able to put four proficiency points (high mastery) into darts for the +4 damage, gauntlets of specialization for another +2 and using countless +1 darts at 4 apr per round. My damage range was 1d3+1, +4, +2. So a single dart had a minimum damage of 8. Assuming I did the minimum for each dart I was still at 8 x 4 = 32 minimum damage a round! Max possible damage was 40 damage a round non crits. So the ceiling isn't that high....but this is still just using simple + 1 darts.
It's gets stupid crazy when talking about elemental darts at a plus 1d6. If the targets make there saves, the worse case scenario is still 32 damage a round, but let's say max potential on max rolls = 64 damage a round! For darts on non crits.
Of course things get A little more consistent when you add in darts like Biter at 1d3+2, +1 acid (returning dart) so it ranges from 40 to 48 dmg per round on my build of a vanilla fighter/thief.
If you have a fighter dualed to mage using darts of wounding (20 poison damage in 20 seconds) with a luck spell you kill Saverok in a 3 rounds flat in BG1.
While darts aren't the end all be all, they have decent potential in BG1, SoD, and early BG2 (SoA)
In ToB you have access to to the Cloak of stars which gives you limited +5 darts, but typically l it's only enough for 2 rounds of combat. All other weapons will give a greater dps output at this point.
Out of curiosity, how important is figher extra 1/2 APR? Because while archers cannot get 5 PiPs in darts, they will still get +1 to BAB and dmg with darts. So at... lvl 6 they catch up to the 5 PiPs BAB bonus, and at lvl 9 they catch up to the dmg bonus and it's only getting better from there on. Add called shot and spells to that and... well...
5 is the max number of attacks per round you can have without some sort of buff.
3 base attacks per round from the darts, 1 attack per round from warrior levels. If you get 1 APR from weapon grandmastery, then that means you're at max without needing any equipment to boost it.
If you get 0.5 from weapon specialization, then that's only 4.5, but you can use equipment to boost it to 5 if it's really that important to you.
A lot of people feel that APR is very important on an archer, because their class bonuses to hit and damage are per hit. More hits means more bonuses. Their called shot also is stronger the more times you can hit the enemy in rapid succession.
I have limited experience with the higher levels of Baldur's Gate but I suspect the difference between 4.5 and 5 isn't incredibly gamebreaking or anything though.
Seems like I might in the minority here. But I think darts are absolutely amazing. I built a level 7 fighter dualed to thief in BG1 / SOD using darts and single weapon style.
It was an amazing build. I was able to put four proficiency points (high mastery) into darts for the +4 damage, gauntlets of specialization for another +2 and using countless +1 darts at 4 apr per round. My damage range was 1d3+1, +4, +2. So a single dart had a minimum damage of 8. Assuming I did the minimum for each dart I was still at 8 x 4 = 32 minimum damage a round! Max possible damage was 40 damage a round non crits. So the ceiling isn't that high....but this is still just using simple + 1 darts.
It's gets stupid crazy when talking about elemental darts at a plus 1d6. If the targets make there saves, the worse case scenario is still 32 damage a round, but let's say max potential on max rolls = 64 damage a round! For darts on non crits.
Of course things get A little more consistent when you add in darts like Biter at 1d3+2, +1 acid (returning dart) so it ranges from 40 to 48 dmg per round on my build of a vanilla fighter/thief.
If you have a fighter dualed to mage using darts of wounding (20 poison damage in 20 seconds) with a luck spell you kill Saverok in a 3 rounds flat in BG1.
While darts aren't the end all be all, they have decent potential in BG1, SoD, and early BG2 (SoA)
In ToB you have access to to the Cloak of stars which gives you limited +5 darts, but typically l it's only enough for 2 rounds of combat. All other weapons will give a greater dps output at this point.
Out of curiosity, how important is figher extra 1/2 APR? Because while archers cannot get 5 PiPs in darts, they will still get +1 to BAB and dmg with darts. So at... lvl 6 they catch up to the 5 PiPs BAB bonus, and at lvl 9 they catch up to the dmg bonus and it's only getting better from there on. Add called shot and spells to that and... well...
I agree with you, I was just sharing my play through with my F/Th. I never tried it with the archer build, seems like it has potential. For me though I mostly play (re-play) from BG1 to the end of SoA.
I never enjoyed ToB that much. So I can't speak of high level game play that much.
My guess is that playing solo... no. Very few classes can play this saga solo AND win, BUT you can play with an aide (a magic user) and still get far more XPs that you would get with a six people party.
That said darts are great against magic users. And this saga has lots of them which are a real pita. The stunning or wounding darts will make them unable to cast anything. And darts are fast as a diving falcon, so you can bet you will win the initiative most times.
If we're talking Archers, then darts seem like a waste to me. Their main draw is their APR, but in SOA, at least, Archers can get to 5 attacks per round easily enough with a shortbow, while also enjoying longer range and significantly higher damage, between the weapon itself and the ability to get grand mastery. And with the buff to Enchanted Weapon, even the easy availability of the Crimson Dart isn't nearly as important as it used to be.
They have a significantly shorter range than most missiles as well, so a mage is able to begin their first spell before you can start attacking.
This. This more than anything. Assassins and blackguards wielding poisoned darts of stunning or whatever optimized character you have made STILL HAVE TO CROSS HALF THE SCREEN to start chucking up close. Unless you're advancing under cover of allies or terrain, that's an unenviable position when facing ranged foes, especially mages.
Old topic but I'm tempted to do some dart dual-class meme-god-of-murder. The goal is to have 5 APR and have a mage in party for improved haste to then shoot with 10 APR (and hit, a lot).
Few options that seems tempting. First with warrior second (for higher thac0, warrior HLA but lower HP and limited utility of first class):
* lvl 12 druid (300K) exp and can be dualed into fighter (1,35 mil needed for lvl 13): this gives 2 slots of level 5 and 6 spells so some decent-ish healing and minimal magical defense (being close to tank due to darts and ready to cast cure).
* lvl 11 thief (220k) into fighter: this could be bounty hunter for extra traps, or assassin for poison: poison seems weak due to one saving throw instead of multiple. At level 11 you can get open locks/traps + some tertiary skill but not full set and no UAI
Dru->Fighter can replace she-druid and likely any priest, although low on chaotic commands and alike (mage with fear protection). Thief->Fighter can allow for non-thief mage in group.
Now Fighter -> Other:
* Fighter->Druid: going 13/14 is 1,5 mil exp on druid and 1,25 mil on fighter so a lot in total. Going 7/8 or 9/10 is drastically lower at the expense of 0,5 APR (to be covered by other item like Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization).
* Fighter->Thief: 13/14 is 880k on thief, but still easily can be done lower (and having fun with UAI). Initial thief exp can be done solo clearing any lock and trap in a city...
* Fighter->Mage: "the classic". Self haste, protection, offense, needs a lot of exp (solo spell learning for some exp?). More darts with more simulacrums (+helm)
Kensai - no ranged weapons, Barbarian - 2*, Berserker no ranged weapons, Wizard Slayer - sucks somewhat as it works only on arcane not divine casters but could be used, likely only with Thief.
F->D could replace divine NPC with mage covering things like fear. F->T removes thief from mages. F->M makes you look for a thief... Lower thac0 limiting the "meme" effect of 10 hits per round.
As for extra darts: Underrepresented Items does have few darts (+1 returning variants of stun/wounding) and +5 big boy with dispel at the risk of blindness (dispel and wizard slayer miscast magic?).
Comments
Looking at Grond0's list above actually make it look very balanced in the originals. You had to make choices and those choices mattered somewhat more than now. Thanks for sharing that Grond0. Interesting with the eagle bow giving STR damage as well!
I agree with you that the improved convenience is generally a good thing. However, with axes for instance the low stack sizes fitted well with the high weight - even characters with exceptional strength couldn't carry huge quantities of them. If we were considering convenience as the main goal it would also have been better to allow missile weapons to be put in quivers rather than quick weapon slots. One of the biggest dangers for me when using axes as a solo player in the past was the fact that when the stack runs out your character automatically rushes into melee combat - you can prevent that with autopause, but I dislike using any AI features when playing the game (I know that makes it my fault
Now, I’m tired of char names with Strenght 19 who are supposed to be skinny guys. Such strength should be for dudes like Minsc and Dorn. That’s why darts matter.
It was an amazing build. I was able to put four proficiency points (high mastery) into darts for the +4 damage, gauntlets of specialization for another +2 and using countless +1 darts at 4 apr per round. My damage range was 1d3+1, +4, +2. So a single dart had a minimum damage of 8. Assuming I did the minimum for each dart I was still at 8 x 4 = 32 minimum damage a round! Max possible damage was 40 damage a round non crits. So the ceiling isn't that high....but this is still just using simple + 1 darts.
It's gets stupid crazy when talking about elemental darts at a plus 1d6. If the targets make there saves, the worse case scenario is still 32 damage a round, but let's say max potential on max rolls = 64 damage a round! For darts on non crits.
Of course things get A little more consistent when you add in darts like Biter at 1d3+2, +1 acid (returning dart) so it ranges from 40 to 48 dmg per round on my build of a vanilla fighter/thief.
If you have a fighter dualed to mage using darts of wounding (20 poison damage in 20 seconds) with a luck spell you kill Saverok in a 3 rounds flat in BG1.
While darts aren't the end all be all, they have decent potential in BG1, SoD, and early BG2 (SoA)
In ToB you have access to to the Cloak of stars which gives you limited +5 darts, but typically l it's only enough for 2 rounds of combat. All other weapons will give a greater dps output at this point.
3 base attacks per round from the darts, 1 attack per round from warrior levels. If you get 1 APR from weapon grandmastery, then that means you're at max without needing any equipment to boost it.
If you get 0.5 from weapon specialization, then that's only 4.5, but you can use equipment to boost it to 5 if it's really that important to you.
A lot of people feel that APR is very important on an archer, because their class bonuses to hit and damage are per hit. More hits means more bonuses. Their called shot also is stronger the more times you can hit the enemy in rapid succession.
I have limited experience with the higher levels of Baldur's Gate but I suspect the difference between 4.5 and 5 isn't incredibly gamebreaking or anything though.
I never enjoyed ToB that much. So I can't speak of high level game play that much.
That said darts are great against magic users. And this saga has lots of them which are a real pita. The stunning or wounding darts will make them unable to cast anything. And darts are fast as a diving falcon, so you can bet you will win the initiative most times.
Few options that seems tempting. First with warrior second (for higher thac0, warrior HLA but lower HP and limited utility of first class):
* lvl 12 druid (300K) exp and can be dualed into fighter (1,35 mil needed for lvl 13): this gives 2 slots of level 5 and 6 spells so some decent-ish healing and minimal magical defense (being close to tank due to darts and ready to cast cure).
* lvl 11 thief (220k) into fighter: this could be bounty hunter for extra traps, or assassin for poison: poison seems weak due to one saving throw instead of multiple. At level 11 you can get open locks/traps + some tertiary skill but not full set and no UAI
Dru->Fighter can replace she-druid and likely any priest, although low on chaotic commands and alike (mage with fear protection). Thief->Fighter can allow for non-thief mage in group.
Now Fighter -> Other:
* Fighter->Druid: going 13/14 is 1,5 mil exp on druid and 1,25 mil on fighter so a lot in total. Going 7/8 or 9/10 is drastically lower at the expense of 0,5 APR (to be covered by other item like Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization).
* Fighter->Thief: 13/14 is 880k on thief, but still easily can be done lower (and having fun with UAI). Initial thief exp can be done solo clearing any lock and trap in a city...
* Fighter->Mage: "the classic". Self haste, protection, offense, needs a lot of exp (solo spell learning for some exp?). More darts with more simulacrums (+helm)
Kensai - no ranged weapons, Barbarian - 2*, Berserker no ranged weapons, Wizard Slayer - sucks somewhat as it works only on arcane not divine casters but could be used, likely only with Thief.
F->D could replace divine NPC with mage covering things like fear. F->T removes thief from mages. F->M makes you look for a thief... Lower thac0 limiting the "meme" effect of 10 hits per round.
As for extra darts: Underrepresented Items does have few darts (+1 returning variants of stun/wounding) and +5 big boy with dispel at the risk of blindness (dispel and wizard slayer miscast magic?).
What are your takes?