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Are darts the most under-appreciated weapon?

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Comments

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,951
    As one of the ppl who did play BG back in the day pre-EE, but not at all as extensively as I've done post-EE, I don't even remember what @Grond0 writes. But it's true, a lot of the changes is for convenience (pause on inventory, item stacking etc) but also removes part of the flavor. For me personally, I prefer convenience though.

    Looking at Grond0's list above actually make it look very balanced in the originals. You had to make choices and those choices mattered somewhat more than now. Thanks for sharing that Grond0. Interesting with the eagle bow giving STR damage as well!

    AerakarGreenWarlock
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,711
    Skatan said:

    Interesting with the eagle bow giving STR damage as well!

    That specific point was always contentious. The bow gave strength damage, but it was an undocumented feature - so it was always questionable whether it was intended or not. I gleefully used the bow in the past of course, but the removal of the strength bonus seems more reasonable to me than its addition to daggers and slings.

    I agree with you that the improved convenience is generally a good thing. However, with axes for instance the low stack sizes fitted well with the high weight - even characters with exceptional strength couldn't carry huge quantities of them. If we were considering convenience as the main goal it would also have been better to allow missile weapons to be put in quivers rather than quick weapon slots. One of the biggest dangers for me when using axes as a solo player in the past was the fact that when the stack runs out your character automatically rushes into melee combat - you can prevent that with autopause, but I dislike using any AI features when playing the game (I know that makes it my fault B)).

    SkatanGreenWarlock
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    edited May 2018
    Grond0 said:

    Axes' weight was reduced from 5 to 1. With the change in stacking size from 10 to 40 that means that using throwing axes is now a far easier and more convenient option than in vanilla. I'm not generally a great fan of the various changes to missiles made in the EE. In the past you had real choices to make:
    - darts gave high APR, but short range and low base damage
    - axes were slow, heavy and shorter ranged, but the only missile that gave strength bonus
    - daggers had the benefit of full range and twice the APR of slings, but had weight, cost more and had stacking limitations
    - for slings you had BG2 to look forward to with the huge boon of a sling with strength damage (you also got that from the Eagle bow in BG1).
    There's much less differentiation between missile weapons in the EE.

    I do think that dropping axes' weight and increasing stack size is a good idea; think of them as small throwing hatchets. And I like to use the Tweaks mod to allow you to recover some of them from fallen enemies. Axes are more durable than arrows, after all.

    BUT you are spot-on in your anslysis of ranged weapons. There was a lot of variation and different kinds of utility in each category, and the few that gave you STR bonuses were special and cool. I don't know what possessed Beamdog to make all the changes they did, but they are definitely changes for the worse.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    Grond0ThacoBell
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,100
    Are we sure throwing axes gave a strength bonus in the original games? I could've sworn that one sling was the only ranged weapon that did that.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,711
    @Chronicler it's a long time since I played vanilla BG1 (as opposed to BGT), so I can't swear to the behavior in that. Axes definitely got a strength bonus in vanilla BG2 (which BGEE used as the base for its engine).

    AerakarGreenWarlock
  • MonoCanallaMonoCanalla Member Posts: 291
    Throwing daggers is greater than darts, with the str bonus and because you can use daggers in melee.

    Now, I’m tired of char names with Strenght 19 who are supposed to be skinny guys. Such strength should be for dudes like Minsc and Dorn. That’s why darts matter.

    GreenWarlock
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,044

    Poison weapon has never been too realistic, but no less so than countless other mechanics in the game, such as reaching into your pack in the middle of melee for a potion, which you then somehow manage to uncork and drink while someone's trying to take your head off with a poleaxe.

    Well, BG1 didn't actually let you do that. As long as you want to go back to the good old days, should Beamdog for the game to unpause when you are in the inventory screen?

    .
    Out of curiosity would that be the sort of thing which could be easily restored? Sounds like a nice way to add a little more realism though it might end up being irritating without one or two UI changes.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    Mantis37 said:

    Poison weapon has never been too realistic, but no less so than countless other mechanics in the game, such as reaching into your pack in the middle of melee for a potion, which you then somehow manage to uncork and drink while someone's trying to take your head off with a poleaxe

    Well, BG1 didn't actually let you do that. As long as you want to go back to the good old days, should Beamdog for the game to unpause when you are in the inventory screen?
    Out of curiosity would that be the sort of thing which could be easily restored? Sounds like a nice way to add a little more realism though it might end up being irritating without one or two UI changes.
    Unfortunately no. It would be super cool because it makes quickslots actually matter. (Minsc only having 2 quickslots in iriginsl BG1 was actually a very big deal.)

    Best I could do is make a mod that stops you from chugging potions in the inventory screen. It's not the same though, because you can still pause the game, go safely into your inventory, and move a new potion to a quickslot.

  • LethlianLethlian Member Posts: 20
    Seems like I might in the minority here. But I think darts are absolutely amazing. I built a level 7 fighter dualed to thief in BG1 / SOD using darts and single weapon style.

    It was an amazing build. I was able to put four proficiency points (high mastery) into darts for the +4 damage, gauntlets of specialization for another +2 and using countless +1 darts at 4 apr per round. My damage range was 1d3+1, +4, +2. So a single dart had a minimum damage of 8. Assuming I did the minimum for each dart I was still at 8 x 4 = 32 minimum damage a round! Max possible damage was 40 damage a round non crits. So the ceiling isn't that high....but this is still just using simple + 1 darts.

    It's gets stupid crazy when talking about elemental darts at a plus 1d6. If the targets make there saves, the worse case scenario is still 32 damage a round, but let's say max potential on max rolls = 64 damage a round! For darts on non crits.

    Of course things get A little more consistent when you add in darts like Biter at 1d3+2, +1 acid (returning dart) so it ranges from 40 to 48 dmg per round on my build of a vanilla fighter/thief.

    If you have a fighter dualed to mage using darts of wounding (20 poison damage in 20 seconds) with a luck spell you kill Saverok in a 3 rounds flat in BG1.

    While darts aren't the end all be all, they have decent potential in BG1, SoD, and early BG2 (SoA)

    In ToB you have access to to the Cloak of stars which gives you limited +5 darts, but typically l it's only enough for 2 rounds of combat. All other weapons will give a greater dps output at this point.

    SkatanAerakar
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,063
    Unless a new patch removed it, it should still be possible to make those +5 darts permanent by dropping them off on the ground, in a container, selling them to a store, or perhaps temporarily kicking out a party member who's holding them to wait out the duration. Even without that trick, though, you can have up to 18 darts in a single rest period (create 6, rest, create 6, rest, create 6), which is enough to break through anything short of PFMW (or SCS' Absolute Immunity) as well as Stoneskins. For more reliable damage output from darts in BG2, you can use the Crimson Dart, available on the first level of Watcher's Keep at minimal risk.

    SkatanGrond0LethlianAerakar
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Lethlian said:

    Seems like I might in the minority here. But I think darts are absolutely amazing. I built a level 7 fighter dualed to thief in BG1 / SOD using darts and single weapon style.

    It was an amazing build. I was able to put four proficiency points (high mastery) into darts for the +4 damage, gauntlets of specialization for another +2 and using countless +1 darts at 4 apr per round. My damage range was 1d3+1, +4, +2. So a single dart had a minimum damage of 8. Assuming I did the minimum for each dart I was still at 8 x 4 = 32 minimum damage a round! Max possible damage was 40 damage a round non crits. So the ceiling isn't that high....but this is still just using simple + 1 darts.

    It's gets stupid crazy when talking about elemental darts at a plus 1d6. If the targets make there saves, the worse case scenario is still 32 damage a round, but let's say max potential on max rolls = 64 damage a round! For darts on non crits.

    Of course things get A little more consistent when you add in darts like Biter at 1d3+2, +1 acid (returning dart) so it ranges from 40 to 48 dmg per round on my build of a vanilla fighter/thief.

    If you have a fighter dualed to mage using darts of wounding (20 poison damage in 20 seconds) with a luck spell you kill Saverok in a 3 rounds flat in BG1.

    While darts aren't the end all be all, they have decent potential in BG1, SoD, and early BG2 (SoA)

    In ToB you have access to to the Cloak of stars which gives you limited +5 darts, but typically l it's only enough for 2 rounds of combat. All other weapons will give a greater dps output at this point.

    Out of curiosity, how important is figher extra 1/2 APR? Because while archers cannot get 5 PiPs in darts, they will still get +1 to BAB and dmg with darts. So at... lvl 6 they catch up to the 5 PiPs BAB bonus, and at lvl 9 they catch up to the dmg bonus and it's only getting better from there on. Add called shot and spells to that and... well...

    Lethlian
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,100
    5 is the max number of attacks per round you can have without some sort of buff.

    3 base attacks per round from the darts, 1 attack per round from warrior levels. If you get 1 APR from weapon grandmastery, then that means you're at max without needing any equipment to boost it.

    If you get 0.5 from weapon specialization, then that's only 4.5, but you can use equipment to boost it to 5 if it's really that important to you.

    A lot of people feel that APR is very important on an archer, because their class bonuses to hit and damage are per hit. More hits means more bonuses. Their called shot also is stronger the more times you can hit the enemy in rapid succession.

    I have limited experience with the higher levels of Baldur's Gate but I suspect the difference between 4.5 and 5 isn't incredibly gamebreaking or anything though.

    Grond0ThacoBell
  • LethlianLethlian Member Posts: 20
    DrakeICN said:

    Lethlian said:

    Seems like I might in the minority here. But I think darts are absolutely amazing. I built a level 7 fighter dualed to thief in BG1 / SOD using darts and single weapon style.

    It was an amazing build. I was able to put four proficiency points (high mastery) into darts for the +4 damage, gauntlets of specialization for another +2 and using countless +1 darts at 4 apr per round. My damage range was 1d3+1, +4, +2. So a single dart had a minimum damage of 8. Assuming I did the minimum for each dart I was still at 8 x 4 = 32 minimum damage a round! Max possible damage was 40 damage a round non crits. So the ceiling isn't that high....but this is still just using simple + 1 darts.

    It's gets stupid crazy when talking about elemental darts at a plus 1d6. If the targets make there saves, the worse case scenario is still 32 damage a round, but let's say max potential on max rolls = 64 damage a round! For darts on non crits.

    Of course things get A little more consistent when you add in darts like Biter at 1d3+2, +1 acid (returning dart) so it ranges from 40 to 48 dmg per round on my build of a vanilla fighter/thief.

    If you have a fighter dualed to mage using darts of wounding (20 poison damage in 20 seconds) with a luck spell you kill Saverok in a 3 rounds flat in BG1.

    While darts aren't the end all be all, they have decent potential in BG1, SoD, and early BG2 (SoA)

    In ToB you have access to to the Cloak of stars which gives you limited +5 darts, but typically l it's only enough for 2 rounds of combat. All other weapons will give a greater dps output at this point.

    Out of curiosity, how important is figher extra 1/2 APR? Because while archers cannot get 5 PiPs in darts, they will still get +1 to BAB and dmg with darts. So at... lvl 6 they catch up to the 5 PiPs BAB bonus, and at lvl 9 they catch up to the dmg bonus and it's only getting better from there on. Add called shot and spells to that and... well...
    I agree with you, I was just sharing my play through with my F/Th. I never tried it with the archer build, seems like it has potential. For me though I mostly play (re-play) from BG1 to the end of SoA.

    I never enjoyed ToB that much. So I can't speak of high level game play that much.

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,740
    @Lethlian your post was caught by the forum's spam filter. I have restored it and verified you so that this should not happen again.

    LethlianGreenWarlock
  • helmo1977helmo1977 Member Posts: 364
    My guess is that playing solo... no. Very few classes can play this saga solo AND win, BUT you can play with an aide (a magic user) and still get far more XPs that you would get with a six people party.

    That said darts are great against magic users. And this saga has lots of them which are a real pita. The stunning or wounding darts will make them unable to cast anything. And darts are fast as a diving falcon, so you can bet you will win the initiative most times.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,100
    helmo1977 said:


    And darts are fast as a diving falcon, so you can bet you will win the initiative most times.

    I notice the projectile speed is pretty low with darts, so it takes a while to reach its target, even if you attack first.

  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    If we're talking Archers, then darts seem like a waste to me. Their main draw is their APR, but in SOA, at least, Archers can get to 5 attacks per round easily enough with a shortbow, while also enjoying longer range and significantly higher damage, between the weapon itself and the ability to get grand mastery. And with the buff to Enchanted Weapon, even the easy availability of the Crimson Dart isn't nearly as important as it used to be.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • Grond0 said:

    They have a significantly shorter range than most missiles as well, so a mage is able to begin their first spell before you can start attacking.

    This. This more than anything. Assassins and blackguards wielding poisoned darts of stunning or whatever optimized character you have made STILL HAVE TO CROSS HALF THE SCREEN to start chucking up close. Unless you're advancing under cover of allies or terrain, that's an unenviable position when facing ranged foes, especially mages.

    GreenWarlockAerakar
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