Are darts the most under-appreciated weapon?
GreenWarlock
Member Posts: 1,354
Darts get no love in this game. The one NPC with a clear love of darts is used as semi-comic relief early in the first game, but yet he inspired me! What is the maximum potential of this neglected weapon?
Well, we'll start with the good news: 3 attacks per round. We will want to hit hard and often, so looking for +damage to boost our output, each boost is automatically tripled! And we can do this single-weapon style or while holding down a shield, for an early AC boost.
Then the bad news starts - no strength bonus. We do get a great THAC0 bonus from max dex early in the game, but dex is the least boostable stat over the length of BG saga - I have no idea if it plays any better in IWD, but I get the impression that has significantly fewer stat boosts, so STR-based weapons might not get ahead as easily?
However, we can get a weapon specialization bonus, for 1+THAC0/+2 damage for any impure fighter class (such as a paladin or a multi class) and a whopping +3/+5 for 5 pips as a 9th level pure-breed fighter. This comes win a bonus 4th APR, and as we are straight fighter, we pick up another 1/2 APR at 7th and 13th, leading to 5 APR (unhasted) doing +5 damage - but can we do better?
The obvious place to look is kits, but we are spectacularly unlucky. As a fighter, I would want something like the Kensai kit, which grants extra damage every few levels for melee weapons, but bans range weapons. It happens to boost throwing weapons that double as melee weapons, which is every other throwing weapon in the game that is not a dart, oh, and they get the strength damage bonus too. So no help there. Never mind, Archers provide a similar bonus for missile weapons, but guess what? Throwing weapons are not missile weapons either - so dart is the ONLY weapon in the game that can benefit from neither of those significant boosters. Still, all is not lost!
First, we can play an assassin. That gives us an extra +1 THAC0 and +1 damage from level 1, plus the use of poison which plays super well without many APR. So option (1) is a 2 level dip into assassin, dealing at the first opportunity so that we do not lose out on too many fighter hit points, and giving up any idea of a fighter kit (they don't help darts builds much anyway).
Option 2 is a longer-term bet that will not pay off until late into ToB - swashbuckler. Swashes get +1/+1 THAC0/damage bonus every 5 levels, so +5/+5 at 25th level, costing 3.3 million xp. 26th level fighter will run you another 4.5 million xp, totaling 7.8Mxp, just under the 8 million cap. It is possible! But highly unlikely solo, and gives up a lot of HLAs. Also, you are not going to get 27th level fighter, that is 50kxp over the xp cap. But I think that is our ultimate build for unassisted damage output - +8/+10 THAC0/damage at 5 APR from weapon style and dualed kit. You will see this so late that it will not be relevant, but may be fun to cross off on the "Hey, I did it!" list. Console jockeys can have fun too.
A more reasonable dual from swash at 20th means "only" 2.2 million xp into Swash, and hitting 21st fighter at a further 3,250,000 xp. I have had a 6 person party hitting around 5Mxp completing SoA with a good deep dive into Watcher's Keep, so this is totally doable for a straight BG play through, although unlikely to repay the dual until early ToB. The extra 5 levels of swash seem unconvincing for an extra +1/+1. Conversely, taking swash to 40 for +8/+8 also seems a poor choice, as you give up the weapon specialization. You do not even get the +1/+2 from basic specialization playing a Swash, as darts are still not melee weapons. Finally, you will have only 3 APR rather than the fighter's 5, although you are still getting more than half the attacks, so it is not a big a penalty as for builds around more useful weapons
Of course, the next consideration is: is there any good kit to boost the weapons for me? The most obvious is the gauntlets of weapon specialization, which give a further +1/+2 in BG, where they are easily obtained towards the end of act 3, or a +2 THAC0 bonus, if preferred, from the aforementioned comic relief. Unfortunately, the BG2 version of those gloves is buried deep in Watcher's Keep, and comes with a bonus 1/2 APR that you won't be able to use (if fighter) as the game caps APR to 5 without magical assistance (enhanced haste only?)
Speaking of improved haste, Cespenar can make an improved cloak of protection which casts improved haste once per day, pushing us briefly to 10 APR. Likewise, the ring of gaxx will give us another 3 castings per day.
In the helm slot, the Helm of Balduran can give another +1 THAC0, but no extra damage.
Not much notable in the armors, although Shurrupak plate packs a +1 dex bonus, which may or may not be helpful.
Nothing great jumps out of the amulet, belt, boots, or shield slots, although the shield of Balduran -1 STR penalty is not going to be a concern when chasing down beholders with darts
For cloaks, the other strong candidate is cloak of the stars, to make 6 +5 darts/day. Alternate cloaks to make the most of their abilities.
Finally, we come to the darts themselves. Stock a variety of special purpose darts that do +1d6 damage of various elements, or cause wounding etc. These are more useful in BG2 and later, as the high APR barrage of damage is enough for most non-magical foes in BG1.
For BG2, there is only one game in town - make a beeline for the first floor of Watcher's keep and the +3 returning crimson dart, which will be your mainstay for the rest of the game.
So at the end of the day, is a dart build feasible? Well, generally any build is feasible in this game, and it is certainly not awful. I have a lot of fun playing my darts builds. The most glaring omission in the BG series is the lack of any distinct boost at all focused on darts. It would be nice to have just one new kit added, perhaps for halflings, that gave the kensai/archer bonus for thrown weapons. Then it will still likely be a poor relation to thrown weapons with a STR bonus, but would be closer to the fore of the crazy builds.
Main thing in favor of this build is high APR multiplying any damage bonuses, and novelty. Down side is darts do piercing damage, very little damage without bonus, and even have a poor range compared to bows - you are not sniping safely out of harm's way.
Go forth and have fun!
Well, we'll start with the good news: 3 attacks per round. We will want to hit hard and often, so looking for +damage to boost our output, each boost is automatically tripled! And we can do this single-weapon style or while holding down a shield, for an early AC boost.
Then the bad news starts - no strength bonus. We do get a great THAC0 bonus from max dex early in the game, but dex is the least boostable stat over the length of BG saga - I have no idea if it plays any better in IWD, but I get the impression that has significantly fewer stat boosts, so STR-based weapons might not get ahead as easily?
However, we can get a weapon specialization bonus, for 1+THAC0/+2 damage for any impure fighter class (such as a paladin or a multi class) and a whopping +3/+5 for 5 pips as a 9th level pure-breed fighter. This comes win a bonus 4th APR, and as we are straight fighter, we pick up another 1/2 APR at 7th and 13th, leading to 5 APR (unhasted) doing +5 damage - but can we do better?
The obvious place to look is kits, but we are spectacularly unlucky. As a fighter, I would want something like the Kensai kit, which grants extra damage every few levels for melee weapons, but bans range weapons. It happens to boost throwing weapons that double as melee weapons, which is every other throwing weapon in the game that is not a dart, oh, and they get the strength damage bonus too. So no help there. Never mind, Archers provide a similar bonus for missile weapons, but guess what? Throwing weapons are not missile weapons either - so dart is the ONLY weapon in the game that can benefit from neither of those significant boosters. Still, all is not lost!
First, we can play an assassin. That gives us an extra +1 THAC0 and +1 damage from level 1, plus the use of poison which plays super well without many APR. So option (1) is a 2 level dip into assassin, dealing at the first opportunity so that we do not lose out on too many fighter hit points, and giving up any idea of a fighter kit (they don't help darts builds much anyway).
Option 2 is a longer-term bet that will not pay off until late into ToB - swashbuckler. Swashes get +1/+1 THAC0/damage bonus every 5 levels, so +5/+5 at 25th level, costing 3.3 million xp. 26th level fighter will run you another 4.5 million xp, totaling 7.8Mxp, just under the 8 million cap. It is possible! But highly unlikely solo, and gives up a lot of HLAs. Also, you are not going to get 27th level fighter, that is 50kxp over the xp cap. But I think that is our ultimate build for unassisted damage output - +8/+10 THAC0/damage at 5 APR from weapon style and dualed kit. You will see this so late that it will not be relevant, but may be fun to cross off on the "Hey, I did it!" list. Console jockeys can have fun too.
A more reasonable dual from swash at 20th means "only" 2.2 million xp into Swash, and hitting 21st fighter at a further 3,250,000 xp. I have had a 6 person party hitting around 5Mxp completing SoA with a good deep dive into Watcher's Keep, so this is totally doable for a straight BG play through, although unlikely to repay the dual until early ToB. The extra 5 levels of swash seem unconvincing for an extra +1/+1. Conversely, taking swash to 40 for +8/+8 also seems a poor choice, as you give up the weapon specialization. You do not even get the +1/+2 from basic specialization playing a Swash, as darts are still not melee weapons. Finally, you will have only 3 APR rather than the fighter's 5, although you are still getting more than half the attacks, so it is not a big a penalty as for builds around more useful weapons
Of course, the next consideration is: is there any good kit to boost the weapons for me? The most obvious is the gauntlets of weapon specialization, which give a further +1/+2 in BG, where they are easily obtained towards the end of act 3, or a +2 THAC0 bonus, if preferred, from the aforementioned comic relief. Unfortunately, the BG2 version of those gloves is buried deep in Watcher's Keep, and comes with a bonus 1/2 APR that you won't be able to use (if fighter) as the game caps APR to 5 without magical assistance (enhanced haste only?)
Speaking of improved haste, Cespenar can make an improved cloak of protection which casts improved haste once per day, pushing us briefly to 10 APR. Likewise, the ring of gaxx will give us another 3 castings per day.
In the helm slot, the Helm of Balduran can give another +1 THAC0, but no extra damage.
Not much notable in the armors, although Shurrupak plate packs a +1 dex bonus, which may or may not be helpful.
Nothing great jumps out of the amulet, belt, boots, or shield slots, although the shield of Balduran -1 STR penalty is not going to be a concern when chasing down beholders with darts
For cloaks, the other strong candidate is cloak of the stars, to make 6 +5 darts/day. Alternate cloaks to make the most of their abilities.
Finally, we come to the darts themselves. Stock a variety of special purpose darts that do +1d6 damage of various elements, or cause wounding etc. These are more useful in BG2 and later, as the high APR barrage of damage is enough for most non-magical foes in BG1.
For BG2, there is only one game in town - make a beeline for the first floor of Watcher's keep and the +3 returning crimson dart, which will be your mainstay for the rest of the game.
So at the end of the day, is a dart build feasible? Well, generally any build is feasible in this game, and it is certainly not awful. I have a lot of fun playing my darts builds. The most glaring omission in the BG series is the lack of any distinct boost at all focused on darts. It would be nice to have just one new kit added, perhaps for halflings, that gave the kensai/archer bonus for thrown weapons. Then it will still likely be a poor relation to thrown weapons with a STR bonus, but would be closer to the fore of the crazy builds.
Main thing in favor of this build is high APR multiplying any damage bonuses, and novelty. Down side is darts do piercing damage, very little damage without bonus, and even have a poor range compared to bows - you are not sniping safely out of harm's way.
Go forth and have fun!
12
Comments
That being said, I think they are viable, so long as you have a backup weapon for enemies that are immune to piercing damage. The best characters I can think of for a dart build are assassins with poison weapon, and druids who don't feel like using a sling or throwing daggers. A fighter/druid, with the extra thaco and apr would be particularly lethal with darts. Or how about a shape shifter? He/she hits you with a dart and when you're stunned he/she transforms into a werewolf and chews you to bits? My question about this is: since you go through darts so quickly, are there even enough darts of wounding and stunning in the game?
Darts are a decent option in BG1, though their shorter range can be a concern - particularly if playing solo. Later in BG2 they also suffer from not being able to get as much THAC0 benefit as missile weapons (where you can stack the bonuses from both launcher and missile).
By the way, archers do get their bonuses when using darts. The problem with darts for an archer is that they can achieve grand mastery with bows, but only specialization with darts. That means darts are a decent option for an archer in BG1, but by BG2 they can't really compete.
Another kit where darts are a realistic alternative is the wizard slayer - the higher APR and availability of fighter THAC0 and weapon proficiency allow them to shut down mages very quickly in BG1.
I really enjoy darts because of their seemingly increased chance to interrupt spell casting. They can be quite nice against mages who use protection from magical weapons but neglect protection from missiles.
Managing darts (as in equipping the ones you want to use during the encounter and making sure your not wasting stunning or wounding on trash mobs) is the downside. It was easier when he was a pure fighter because of the extra quick slots.
You have to look at darts not a DPS, but as a disabler. Stunning, wounding, spell disrupted and when combined with wizard slayer spell miscasting allows other DPS options to do land easier.
Using spells like doom that lower saving throws before tossing them also helps with getting those second abilities off more often.
I know in both SoD and BG2 there is a returning dart (Asp and Crimson) respectively so those will make managing more beneficial in the long run.
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aren’t flails and morning stars the same prof? If so FoA and DoE are always mentioned.
I’ll give you clubs though because there is only two magical ones in BG and both are subpar and get mid game compared to other blunt weapons you get near the beginning.
That's no longer the case in EE, unfortunately, so lately I've been more fond of throwing daggers. That said, the EE did boost them with the elemental damage darts. 3d6 in acid damage alone per round will add up pretty quickly.
I agree though they are great disablers, but this is true for any class that can use them. Something with fighter (wizard slayer, F/Dr, F/Th,) or even swashbuckler seems to stand out for the higher APR and/or damage bonuses.
1) You have to keep darts in a quick weapon slot instead of ammo slots.
2) Their shorter range makes it harder to keep your flinger out of danger.
3) v2.x nerfing of PW makes assassins much less effective.
In fact the last point is the main reason why I reverted to playing v1.3.
As a reminder to 1.3 poison lovers, Tresset made a mod that allows you to use the 1.3 poison in 2.0.
I agree that there should have been a change with poison weapon in BG:EE too (e.g. damage scaling and giving blackguards a different (non-stacking) ability than assassins), I just think Beamdog really screwed the pooch with it and therefore debate is warranted.
I ran the numbers and the highest-damage ranged attacker in the BG trilogy is a Priest of Lathander > Fighter dual-class wielding a sling, so I'd go with slings for most underrated weapon.
But eventually, any damage-based build experiences diminishing returns. Dealing 500 damage per round isn't that much better than 499 when the enemy only has 200 HP.
With that said, I think ranged DPS scales far better than an equivalent amount of melee DPS. Yes, eventually you're far exceeding any single enemy's HP total, but the great thing about ranged is the ability to switch targets and immediately begin applying that spillover damage without any time wasted on travel.
Slings have a lot else going for them, too. Available to every class, (the only ranged weapon available to Clerics, in fact), plus they get the strength damage bonus. They get outshone in a lot of respects by throwing daggers, but in the early game they require less inventory management and give you access to magical ammo far quicker, and in the late game they scale up to hit as high as +5 and generally see a huge power spike thanks to whirlwind attack.
I was gonna add that darts
Regarding darts not getting any STR boost or similar, I think that's a good trade-off for their added APR. Even mages can get a few good hits in with darts with a decent DEX.
Regarding choice of classes, you've said most of them, but a blade with darts with offensive spin does decent damage as well. Ensuring the top damage on the minuscule dice of darts with an added APR is still a fairly decent weapon, though best used on switch rather than as a primary weapon IMHO.
Edit: and regarding most under-appreciated weapons it's a tough call, but I think I'd vote for bastard swords in BG1. In BG2 I dunno really.. Clubs maybe or as mentioned above, morningstars, but since they are not a category of their own, that makes less of an impact.
Slings have superiour range, and is a safer option for a 4 hp mageling. Plus you can get + to hit and damage bonuses from the sling and bullets as well, so each hit counts.
Still my mages get dart at lvl 1, dagger at lvl 6, staff at lvl 12 (when some good staves are available in bg2-SoA) and finally sling at lvl 18 (when you can get some good slings AND +4 bullets at tob: they pack a punch.)
As you said, APR is a very important factor and darts excel there. Therefore, it is very useful for assasins and mages that lack apr sorely. However, a fighter can use bows which are clearly superiour and they get fighter level+specialisation apr bonuses too, so dart bonus apr is kinda wasted on them.
Tuigan Shortbow also does a real number on the use-cases for darts in BG2.
- darts gave high APR, but short range and low base damage
- axes were slow, heavy and shorter ranged, but the only missile that gave strength bonus
- daggers had the benefit of full range and twice the APR of slings, but had weight, cost more and had stacking limitations
- for slings you had BG2 to look forward to with the huge boon of a sling with strength damage (you also got that from the Eagle bow in BG1).
There's much less differentiation between missile weapons in the EE.