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  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,174
    Grond0 said:

    It's being reported on the radio that 15% of Tory MPs (a minimum of 48) have written letters saying they no longer have confidence in her leadership. It seems that an election to determine whether she should continue as leader (and prime minister) will be tonight (results due by 22.00 GMT). Edit: story here.

    I think she will win. In the past leaders in a similar situation have tended to resign unless they win by a significant margin, but it's quite likely she will hold on with any win. The reality is that there is no majority in Parliament for any potential solution and I don't see any reason to believe any other leader could do better in negotiating with the EU than her - I'm sure she also believes that, so her logical position would be not to resign unless she's forced to.

    Yes, she'll likely win, as much due to circumstances as to personal merit. Usually one would wonder if more than 100 against would be the end but May will hang on until some clonks her with a ceremonial mace and plunges some stakes through her horcruxes.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694

    A devastating report details a 'monumental' assault on science at the Department of the Interior

    https://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-interior-science-20181210-story.html?fbclid=IwAR1SNSoeh34g65GWHM3gncrxsXXMxxrhRZ67O7SU1CxjP5yOUxxtdDBRdus
    Trump doesn't want to believe it, therefore, it's not science.

    Trump's family empire/entities hit with 30 subpoenas. Multiple federal agencies involved.

    https://www.sourcepolitics.com/trump-hit-with-30-subpoenas-irs-and-other-entities-involved/?fbclid=IwAR3jeSHx4m6NEpdVEq_Z-EVcmk8NVYKoq-J547HPXWvTF23Il7Gg6fnuWtU
    Watch him rant in 3, 2, 1...

    WHY DO REPUBLICANS QUESTION THE IQ OF OPINIONATED WOMEN LIKE ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ? | OPINION

    https://www.newsweek.com/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-iq-republicans-opinionated-women-1233647?fbclid=IwAR0y3rvhJdkFWf9S-SeJmNYOvTPAEw-68U7TsB03KkfsBbFh0LfX2siTGJg
    Because she's intelligent. That scares and intiidates them, so they have to try to bring her down. That's my take.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited December 2018
    Grond0 said:

    It's being reported on the radio that 15% of Tory MPs (a minimum of 48) have written letters saying they no longer have confidence in her leadership. It seems that an election to determine whether she should continue as leader (and prime minister) will be tonight (results due by 22.00 GMT). Edit: story here.

    I think she will win. In the past leaders in a similar situation have tended to resign unless they win by a significant margin, but it's quite likely she will hold on with any win. The reality is that there is no majority in Parliament for any potential solution and I don't see any reason to believe any other leader could do better in negotiating with the EU than her - I'm sure she also believes that, so her logical position would be not to resign unless she's forced to.

    I'm no fan of May, but she isn't the core issue, Brexit is. It seems to me a vast number of people voted for something even though they had no concept of what it meant or what the consequences would be. Now they expect someone to ride in on a white horse and save the day. They were sold a bill of goods (didn't Farage promise a massive influx of money into the NHS and backtrack hours after the vote??) and now expect someone to clean up their mess and make something presentable out of it. Won't happen. The only hope is a second referendum. Otherwise, the UK is going to have to lie in the bed they made, and feel the consequences. Pity for those who voted against it, but the only way the other side will ever learn. These expectations that it should just "happen" and everything will work out fine is the same ignorance that brought about this problem in the first place.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    edited December 2018
    LadyRhian said:

    Also, on whether the President could pull off a "Step Down, put Pence in Charge, have Pence pardon him" scenario

    First, this professor is not discussing the scenario I laid out using the 25th Amendment of step out, pardon, step back in; instead, he is discussing the legality/constitutionality of indicting a sitting President. A pardon *does* prevent any future prosecution for the pardoned offense but only if the offense is Federal--Presidential pardons do not apply to State crimes, which is how the people who desperately wish to take down Trump are going to wind up taking him down. Don't forget: accepting a pardon implies an admission of guilt. Second, this professor wants nothing more than to see Trump go down in flames--he presumes that Trump is already guilty of all sorts of crimes--and thus everything he says is going to be skewed in that way. I don't think Trump is innocent, clearly, but at this time he isn't guilty, either, because he hasn't been placed on trial and found guilty.

    Now, after yesterday's train wreck of a public debate, any hopes Trump might have had about Pence being willing to pardon him have vanished. It is unwise to throw your second-in-command under the bus, but no one ever accused Trump of being wise.

    AOC is not unintelligent, only naive. She thinks that she is living the Mr. Smith Goes to Washington dream, that she is going to change Congress with her youth and her enthusiasm. The opposite is going to occur--the entrenched Powers That Be are going to require her to step in line and they won't tolerate her dissent for very long. Eventually, she is going to lose patience with her Democratic colleagues because, to her, they aren't Progressive enough.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    edited December 2018
    LadyRhian said:

    ...

    WHY DO REPUBLICANS QUESTION THE IQ OF OPINIONATED WOMEN LIKE ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ? | OPINION

    ...
    another misuse of 'opinionated' by the media. did this word really get a positive connotation with time?

  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    edited December 2018

    LadyRhian said:

    Also, on whether the President could pull off a "Step Down, put Pence in Charge, have Pence pardon him" scenario

    First, this professor is not discussing the scenario I laid out using the 25th Amendment of step out, pardon, step back in; instead, he is discussing the legality/constitutionality of indicting a sitting President. A pardon *does* prevent any future prosecution for the pardoned offense but only if the offense is Federal--Presidential pardons do not apply to State crimes, which is how the people who desperately wish to take down Trump are going to wind up taking him down. Don't forget: accepting a pardon implies an admission of guilt. Second, this professor wants nothing more than to see Trump go down in flames--he presumes that Trump is already guilty of all sorts of crimes--and thus everything he says is going to be skewed in that way. I don't think Trump is innocent, clearly, but at this time he isn't guilty, either, because he hasn't been placed on trial and found guilty..
    But even being pardoned at this point isn't going to save him. And the point is that Pence may wind up also being indicted, which will scotch any plans for Pence to pardon him. Even if Pence isn't accused of "High Crimes and Misdemeanors", it's possible that if he is guilty of a crime, Pence won't be able to pardon anyone without himself being impeached, something I think Pence would try to avoid. The founders wouldn't want a President guilty of High Crimes and Misdemeanors to be pardoned and get off scot-free, without punishment.

    Now, after yesterday's train wreck of a public debate, any hopes Trump might have had about Pence being willing to pardon him have vanished. It is unwise to throw your second-in-command under the bus, but no one ever accused Trump of being wise.

    Trump is *not* wise. He may be intelligent, but that doesn't prevent him from doing stupid things and acting in stupid ways. Also, he's utterly incurious and hates to read. All he sees and hears comes out of the cesspit of Fox News. He also is well known to throw people under the bus once he no longer has a use for them.

    AOC is not unintelligent, only naive. She thinks that she is living the Mr. Smith Goes to Washington dream, that she is going to change Congress with her youth and her enthusiasm. The opposite is going to occur--the entrenched Powers That Be are going to require her to step in line and they won't tolerate her dissent for very long. Eventually, she is going to lose patience with her Democratic colleagues because, to her, they aren't Progressive enough.

    She may be naive, but there are plenty of progressives who are willing to go along with her. As the past election proved, one vote *can* make a difference. (One representative didn't vote on election day, and his election was literally tied at equal votes because he didn't vote for himself. As he said, "One vote *can* make a difference. Literally."
    bob_veng said:

    LadyRhian said:

    ...

    WHY DO REPUBLICANS QUESTION THE IQ OF OPINIONATED WOMEN LIKE ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ? | OPINION

    ...
    another misuse of 'opinionated' by the media. did this word really get a positive connotation with time?
    Because most people don't read, and the news only needs a 5th level education to read. And don't ask about science reporting- that's even worse!
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,320
    bob_veng said:

    LadyRhian said:

    ...

    WHY DO REPUBLICANS QUESTION THE IQ OF OPINIONATED WOMEN LIKE ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ? | OPINION

    ...
    another misuse of 'opinionated' by the media. did this word really get a positive connotation with time?
    I think the answer to that is probably, yes. Dictionary definitions vary, with some of them still putting a definitely negative slant to the word along the lines of being obstinate or conceited about the value of your opinions. There are a number though that are more like the Cambridge English dictionary that defines it as: "having strong opinions that you feel free to express". While not precisely positive, that's no longer negative and from the posts in this thread it sounds like it accurately describes her ...
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    LadyRhian said:

    But even being pardoned at this point isn't going to save him. And the point is that Pence may wind up also being indicted, which will scotch any plans for Pence to pardon him. Even if Pence isn't accused of "High Crimes and Misdemeanors", it's possible that if he is guilty of a crime, Pence won't be able to pardon anyone without himself being impeached, something I think Pence would try to avoid. The founders wouldn't want a President guilty of High Crimes and Misdemeanors to be pardoned and get off scot-free, without punishment.


    Presidential pardons *will* save him from Federal offenses; that is why they exist. As I said, State crimes will be how Trump could be taken down--only the Governor of New York can issue pardons or commutations for those offenses. The way pardons are written into the Constitution, someone *can* commit a Federal offense, be pardoned, and wind up completely in the clear (aside from the presumption of guilt which goes along with accepting a pardon).

    This is the first time I have ever heard anyone even suggest that Pence is suspected of anything. Even if Trump is guilty, that does not mean that Pence had a hand in anything. I understand the sentiment, though--some Democrats are hoping beyond hope that both Trump *and* Pence can somehow be removed from office, which would make Pelosi the POTUS (after she assumes the office of Speaker). I wouldn't bet on that happening--you are more likely to win the Powerball lottery. Truthfully, once Trump has been impeached (probably by March, more likely by May) as well as indicted his best course of action would be resignation as per Nixon; after that, just let Pence ride out the second half of the term and wait until November 2020.

    Just out of curiosity, what happens if a New York court subpoenas Trump and he refuses to go? Who will go arrest him inside the White House? Federal Marshals (but aren't they a subset of Justice)? The FBI? Probably won't happen, but the possibility needs to be considered.

    re: AOC...there aren't that many Progressives in Washington, D. C. at this time. Maybe in 20 years, but not right now--she will be on the fringe.

    re: "opinionated" That term is neither positive nor negative, in and of itself. Every person here is "opinionated".
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited December 2018

    It wasn't just Stormy Daniels. At least TWO hush money payments were made to two different women (the other Karen McDougall) in the waning days of the campaign, this one facilitated by a national tabloid that is in the check-out counter of every supermarket in America. This is illegal. These are illegal contributions done with the strict intent to deceive the public. At this point, I'm ready to declare this entire Presidency illegitimate, and everything from the Supreme Court picks and tax cut is as well. The entire process was robbed and hijacked by illegal acts left and right.
    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694

    Sarah Sanders hopes people remember her as being 'transparent and honest'

    https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/420961-sarah-sanders-she-hopes-people-remember-her-as-being?fbclid=IwAR3VRbuwsXTco4z5vTI9pCyO-CbellxnSNaCHBjGLw0O6t3GPU3c6bgOZ10#.XBEuHhbUN24.facebook
    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! There is NO WAY anyone will remember her like that!

    Poll: Americans Want Trump To Compromise On Border Wall To Avoid Possible Shutdown

    https://www.npr.org/2018/12/11/675334306/poll-americans-want-trump-to-compromise-on-border-wall-amid-possible-shutdown?fbclid=IwAR0rvBewUBHFJM5wvm5UUh-7pi4Npad_IGhBgHJAwqwERW-QA8sXI7jGFTI
    And Trum has said he will gladly shut down the government and take credit for ir- an unlooked for gift to the democrats!

    Michael Cohen sentenced to 3 years in prison, blames President Trump for his 'path of darkness'

    https://www.yahoo.com/gma/cohen-face-sentencing-campaign-finance-violations-lying-congress-095803441--abc-news-topstories.html?.tsrc=notification-brknews
    I think they were equally at fault.

    Vote of no confidence: a brief history

    https://www.historyextra.com/period/modern/vote-no-confidence-history-facts-explain-first-prime-minister/?utm_source=Browser&utm_medium=Push_Web_Notifications&utm_campaign=General modern

    National Enquirer owner is cooperating with prosecutors, admits it helped bury Playboy model's Trump sex claims

    https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-pol-national-enquirer-playboy-trump-sex-20181212-story.html
    The parent company of right-wing tabloid National Enquirer has admitted it helped bury salacious stories about President Trump ahead of the 2016 election, federal prosecutors in New York revealed Wednesday.
    The U.S. Attorney’s Office in Manhattan said American Media Inc. was given a non-prosecution agreement in exchange for admitting that it helped the Trump campaign facilitate an illicit $150,000 pre-election hush payment to Karen McDougal, a former Playboy model who had threatened to go public with claims she had sex with the President in 2006.
    “AMI further admitted that its principal purpose in making the payment was to suppress the woman’s story so as to prevent it from influencing the election,” said Robert Khuzami, the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York.
    Well, again, nit a big surprise. They've been reporting this for almost 2 years now. Nice to see it confirmed, though.

    Trump throws a fit after being pwnd by Dems as more #TrumpRussia news emerges.

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/12/11/1818586/-Trump-throws-a-fit-after-being-pwnd-by-Dems-as-more-TrumpRussia-news-emerges?detail=emaildkre
    Michael Flynn filed his sentencing memorandum tonight. The memo itself is only 13 pages long, and it mostly says what I would expect--that Flynn has served his country admirably and that Mueller was correct to recommend no prison time. The other 165 pages are exhibits.
    2/ You may be most interested in Flynn's description of his cooperation. He spent over 62 hours speaking with Mueller's team, and produced documents on several occasions totaling thousands of pages.
    There can be little doubt, after Mueller's filing, that he helped Mueller.
    3/ What is most interesting to me is how Flynn's attorneys described his offense. They emphasize that Flynn (unlike Papadopoulos) was not warned that lying to the FBI is a crime and that unlike Van der Zwann he was not an attorney.
    4/ His attorneys give the impression that he was tricked by the FBI agents, noting that he viewed them as "allies," but what the agents did was routine. Interviewees are not typically warned that lying to the FBI is a crime, and the FBI usually doesn't alarm the interviewee.
    5/ Overall, however, his attorneys did a very job writing the memorandum, which isn't surprising because they work at a large, well-regarded law firm. They should be credited with convincing Flynn to set aside the wishes of some of his family members to fight Mueller.
    6/ There can be no serious question that the sentence will be a great result for Flynn and that is due to his early and strong cooperation with Mueller. What remains to be seen is whether he will change his tune after sentencing, as Papadopoulos did. /end

    Dems laugh at old man Republican who complained to Google CEO about his iPhone

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/12/11/1818534/-Democrats-burst-out-laughing-at-old-man-Republican-who-complained-to-Google-about-his-iPhone?detail=emaildkre
    At today’s very solemn House Judiciary Committee hearing meant to get to the bottom of why Donald Trump’s picture appears whenever anyone Googles “idiot,” Rep. Steve King (R-eally clueless about any technology invented since Gunsmoke was canceled) complained about an incident in which his young granddaughter was playing a game on her phone and saw a picture of King sullied by some coarse language.
    From Business Insider:
    "I'm not going to say into the record what kind of language was used around that picture of her grandfather," he said.
    Then, holding up his Apple device, King asked [Google CEO Sundar] Pichai, "How does that show up on a 7-year-old’s iPhone who's playing a kids game."
    To which the Google CEO answered, "Congressman, iPhone is made by a different company."
    The Democratic staff table erupted in laughter at Pichai's reply, according to Business Insider's Joe Perticone who attended Tuesday's hearing.

    'The bottom is going to fall out': GOPers privately starting to disown Individual-1

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/12/11/1818468/--The-bottom-is-going-to-fall-out-GOPers-privately-starting-to-disown-Individual-1?detail=emaildkre
    Republican support, especially in the Senate where they retain a majority, is Individual-1’s only defense and only hope. The flip side of our ongoing frustration with relentless GOP support for him no matter how obscene his actions is that when it goes, he’s toast. And GOPers have their fingers in the wind. The corporate media has been incrementally forced by the legal filings of Mueller and the other investigating prosecutors into taking TrumpRussia seriously, which will force many more Americans to take it seriously, posing a very big problem in 2020 for GOP lawmakers who want to keep their jobs.

    Trump, in meeting with Pelosi and Schumer, unwittingly gives America a lesson in sexism

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/12/11/1818484/-Trump-in-meeting-with-Pelosi-and-Schumer-unwittingly-gives-America-a-lesson-in-sexism?detail=emaildkre
    Armed with notecard props and pre-arranged talking points, Trump essentially told Nancy Pelosi, over and over again, that he had enough votes in the House to pass legislation to fund his “wall," and Speaker Pelosi told Trump, over and over again, that if he thought he had the votes he should just go ahead and hold the vote. The meeting accomplished nothing substantive, with Trump ending up huffing that he would be “proud to shut down the government” if the Democrats refused to play along.
    But the fact that nothing was accomplished here should not detract from the classic demonstration Trump provided of a phenomenon that permeates every level of our society, from interpersonal relationships to corporate boardrooms, whenever a woman deigns to speak about a subject with authority to an audience of men.

    Trump's fossil fuel-promoting energy adviser is ruthlessly laughed at during climate change talks

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/12/11/1818470/-Trump-s-energy-adviser-promoting-fossil-fuels-is-ruthlessly-laughed-at-during-climate-change-talks?detail=emaildkre
    Katowice, Poland, is hosting the world’s largest climate conference. Dignitaries, scientists, politicians, and ambassadors from all over the world have come to discuss what is happening and (hopefully) what can be done to secure humanity’s place on our warming planet.
    The United States has sent Wells Griffith, Donald Trump’s energy and climate adviser. Because Griffith represents one of the most powerful countries on the planet, he was allowed to speak on Monday. He spent his speech explaining how we need to continue to push for coal because it make people money and couldn’t be completely suspended from use right away.
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    Griffith: We strongly believe that no country should have to sacrifice economic prosperity or energy security in pursuit of environmental sustainability.
    About 200 people began to laugh at Griffith at this point, with many standing to throw their hands up in disgust. Many in the crowd were protesters and began a chant against a man who seems to have a personal interest in, at the very least, hair oil.

    Here's why the Russian spy's cooperation agreement is HUGELY problematic for Trump and the NRA

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/12/11/1818459/-Here-s-why-the-Russian-spy-s-cooperation-agreement-is-HUGELY-problematic-for-Trump-and-the-NRA?detail=emaildkre
    Russian spy Maria Butina has reportedly been struggling during her time in a U.S. federal prison. Butina’s lawyers have repeatedly asked U.S. District Court Judge Tanya Chutkan to order Butina out of the solitary confinement in which she is held and released into the general prison population. In late November, her lawyers said Butina is increasingly in poor mental health because of the isolation, but Judge Chutkan denied their request.
    Only days later, word came that Butina appeared to be breaking in spirit and would accept a plea deal with federal prosecutors, changing her plea from not guilty to guilty on conspiracy charges. She’s come to realize Putin isn’t riding in bare-chested atop some white horse to make a deal and save her. She’s staring at more than a decade in federal prison. And who could blame her? Just this week, Vladimir Putin threw her under a Russian-made 18-wheeler when he claimed that not only does he not know her, but neither do any of his top spy chiefs.

    One Texas judge has a habit of letting rapists walk, even when they plead guilty

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/12/11/1818456/-One-Texas-judge-has-a-habit-of-letting-rapists-walk-even-when-they-plead-guilty?detail=emaildkre
    This sickens me.

    'Courageous action is necessary': 30 faith leaders arrested at border in support of asylum seekers

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/12/11/1818457/--Courageous-action-is-necessary-30-faith-leaders-arrested-at-border-in-support-of-asylum-seekers?detail=emaildkre
    Border agents came armed and shielded with riot gear. They came shielded with prayers. Approximately 30 faith leaders—including those from Christian, Muslim, Jewish, and indigenous communities—were arrested at the U.S./Mexico border Monday, among the hundreds who gathered in San Diego to defend the international and U.S. right to seek asylum at our borders.
    “As a Quaker,” said organizer Laura Boyce of the American Friends Service Committee (AFSC), “I believe there is that of the divine in all of us. This belief calls us to stand with those fleeing violence and poverty, and to call on our government to uphold the human rights of migrants and end the militarization of border communities. In the face of unfounded fear, racism and violence, courageous action is necessary.”
    The faith leaders were among the 400 people who gathered to stand in solidarity with the thousands who continue to have their processing slow-walked by border officials as others have been illegally blocked altogether from presenting themselves at the border. When faith leaders “reached the enforcement zone,” a AFSC statement says, “they were stopped by a line of Border Patrol agents in riot gear. Leaders moved forward to offer a ceremonial blessing. Thirty people were taken into custody.”

    North Carolina GOP already trying to torpedo the rules ahead of possible House race do-over

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/12/11/1818547/-North-Carolina-GOP-already-trying-to-torpedo-the-rules-ahead-of-possible-House-race-do-over?detail=emaildkre
    On Tuesday, North Carolina GOP executive director Dallas Woodhouse declared that a new election in North Carolina’s 9th District was “warranted,” but not because of widespread reports that Republican Mark Harris was aided by election fraud. Instead, Woodhouse pointed to an affidavit from a poll worker in Bladen County who said that she saw election officials tabulating the county’s early votes before Election Day, contrary to state law. Woodhouse now says that if early vote numbers were leaked before the polls were closed, there should be a new race—perhaps using this excused in a doomed effort to deflect attention from the GOP’s absentee ballot fraud scheme.
    Of course, the North Carolina Republican party wouldn’t be the North Carolina Republican Party if it didn’t already have a plan in place to try and change the rules in it favor. On Tuesday, two leading GOP state legislators introduced a bill that would require a new primary if the state Board of Elections orders a new election.

    “It’s like a manhood thing for him as if manhood could ever be associated with him.This wall thing."

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/12/11/1818501/--It-s-like-a-manhood-thing-for-him-As-if-manhood-could-ever-be-associated-with-him-This-wall-thing?detail=emaildkre
    Nancy has his number. She has dealt with assholes like him her whole life. Do you think she got to where she is by sitting back and listening to some male clown pontificate on something he knows nothing about, but who believes he is an expert by virtue of his gender?

    The Pelosi and Schumer Show - the Reviews are In. Bravo!

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/12/11/1818557/-The-Pelosi-and-Schumer-Show-Some-Reviews?detail=emaildkre
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,320
    May won, but 117 MPs vote against her. The immediate reaction on the radio from Brexiteers (the same people who describe the original 52:48 vote as reflecting a clear decision to leave the EU) is that the 63% voting for her is a narrow margin and reflects a total lack of confidence in her. Also they want a say in future negotiations, which still reflects (obviously in my view) a staggering lack of insight into the fact that there is no longer any room for genuine negotiation.

    Unlike Margaret Thatcher, May will be going nowhere as a result of winning this confidence vote and the Brexit process will now continue unchanged - which will involve a bit of meaningless spin on the political declaration followed by taking her Brexit proposal to Parliament.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    Grond0 said:


    Unlike Margaret Thatcher, May will be going nowhere as a result of winning this confidence vote and the Brexit process will now continue unchanged - which will involve a bit of meaningless spin on the political declaration followed by taking her Brexit proposal to Parliament.

    So - where does that leave Brexit? It sounds like there's next to no chance that Parliament will pass the current deal, especially in light of the EU's ruling that the U.K. can unilaterally back out of the exit whenever they want.

    It sounds like the U.K. is heading towards a hard exit now, unless they set up a new referendum, right? (And I don't know Joe politically feasible a new referendum even is - although I can't imagine the U.K. staying in the EU without one).
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,320

    Grond0 said:


    Unlike Margaret Thatcher, May will be going nowhere as a result of winning this confidence vote and the Brexit process will now continue unchanged - which will involve a bit of meaningless spin on the political declaration followed by taking her Brexit proposal to Parliament.

    So - where does that leave Brexit? It sounds like there's next to no chance that Parliament will pass the current deal, especially in light of the EU's ruling that the U.K. can unilaterally back out of the exit whenever they want.

    It sounds like the U.K. is heading towards a hard exit now, unless they set up a new referendum, right? (And I don't know Joe politically feasible a new referendum even is - although I can't imagine the U.K. staying in the EU without one).
    May's strategy has always been to show MPs the precipice and hope they withdraw from it. I think there is a possibility that she could still get her deal through (remember that some Labour MPs may well support it even against Corbyn's wishes), though I agree that's unlikely. A no deal is definitely a possibility as, in the absence of any other legislation being passed, that will happen automatically. A second referendum is also still possible as that seems to be the option at the moment with the greatest cross party support and, if it came down to a Parliamentary choice between no deal and a second referendum, I think it would be a very clear decision for a referendum. It would really need the Government to propose the legislation for that and they've said thus far there's no chance of that - but as I said the other day May has a track record of saying very strongly she won't do something ... and then turning round and doing it.

    That's all a long-winded way of saying I really don't know what will happen :p.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    The biggest proponents of Brexit never expected it to pass. Since it was sold with lies and (it was revealed later) illegal campaign funding (funny how this keeps popping up in right-wing populist causes/candidates), people like Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson immediately washed their hands of the entire situation, happy to have set the building on fire and expect someone else to put it out.

    In comes May after Cameron is forced out by the debacle. She doesn't even really support it, but is bound to negotiate the exit anyway. Meanwhile, the hardocre Brexit crowd, filled with delusion from the start, imagines Britain's strength at the negotiating table as being FAR greater than it actually is (because a totally out of proportion believe in the importance of the UK is, of course, exactly what a nationalist movement would believe). Since they are operating under the myth that the UK are the ones negotiating from a position of strength (when it is the exact opposite), they now view any compromise or anything less than 100% of what they want as a betrayal or weakness. Because they are operating from the assumption of a reality that doesn't exist.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694

    LadyRhian said:

    But even being pardoned at this point isn't going to save him. And the point is that Pence may wind up also being indicted, which will scotch any plans for Pence to pardon him. Even if Pence isn't accused of "High Crimes and Misdemeanors", it's possible that if he is guilty of a crime, Pence won't be able to pardon anyone without himself being impeached, something I think Pence would try to avoid. The founders wouldn't want a President guilty of High Crimes and Misdemeanors to be pardoned and get off scot-free, without punishment.

    Presidential pardons *will* save him from Federal offenses; that is why they exist. As I said, State crimes will be how Trump could be taken down--only the Governor of New York can issue pardons or commutations for those offenses. The way pardons are written into the Constitution, someone *can* commit a Federal offense, be pardoned, and wind up completely in the clear (aside from the presumption of guilt which goes along with accepting a pardon).

    This is the first time I have ever heard anyone even suggest that Pence is suspected of anything. Even if Trump is guilty, that does not mean that Pence had a hand in anything. I understand the sentiment, though--some Democrats are hoping beyond hope that both Trump *and* Pence can somehow be removed from office, which would make Pelosi the POTUS (after she assumes the office of Speaker). I wouldn't bet on that happening--you are more likely to win the Powerball lottery. Truthfully, once Trump has been impeached (probably by March, more likely by May) as well as indicted his best course of action would be resignation as per Nixon; after that, just let Pence ride out the second half of the term and wait until November 2020.
    Let’s all remember that Pence was the head of Trump’s transition team, which means that he was IN CHARGE of the s*** that went down with Russia! So his neck is just as much on the chopping block as Trump's, at this point.

    So all this stuff that's coming out about Trump's team contacting Russia during the transition? Pence was in charge of that. He's tarred with the same brush as Trump there. Maybe even more so, since he was in charge.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited December 2018

    The biggest proponents of Brexit never expected it to pass. Since it was sold with lies and (it was revealed later) illegal campaign funding (funny how this keeps popping up in right-wing populist causes/candidates), people like Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson immediately washed their hands of the entire situation, happy to have set the building on fire and expect someone else to put it out.

    In comes May after Cameron is forced out by the debacle. She doesn't even really support it, but is bound to negotiate the exit anyway. Meanwhile, the hardocre Brexit crowd, filled with delusion from the start, imagines Britain's strength at the negotiating table as being FAR greater than it actually is (because a totally out of proportion believe in the importance of the UK is, of course, exactly what a nationalist movement would believe). Since they are operating under the myth that the UK are the ones negotiating from a position of strength (when it is the exact opposite), they now view any compromise or anything less than 100% of what they want as a betrayal or weakness. Because they are operating from the assumption of a reality that doesn't exist.

    Sounds like Trump who supposedly didn't expect to win.

    He was selling condos and making deals with Russians during the election. Supposedly he planned to start Trump TV and his brand after losing the election would have been "omg the global elites cheated! I shoulda won except for millions and millions of illegal votes! Buy Trump bucks to support the cause!" or whatever.

    Then he actually won due to a rigged system and now his crimes that he expected to get away with because wouldn't actually be president are not so concealable any more.

    Things didn't go according to his plan.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited December 2018
    Michael Cohen was sentenced to 3 years in prison today for a crime the President of the United States commissioned him to commit. The parent company of the National Enquirer is now willing to admit this happend at LEAST twice. Donald Trump commited a felony. He hasn't been charged with one, or arrested, or convicted. But anyone with half a brain left in their head KNOWS it's the case. The only reason he isn't in central booking right now is because he is the President. Now is when we truly start reckoning with just whether our system of government can hold, or if equal justice under the law is a complete and utter crock of shit. Trump should be indicted. There is nothing in the Constitution that indicates he shouldn't be. Andrew Napolitano of FOX News is conservative, but still a judge who knows what this means:

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-news-judge-napolitano-we-now-know-trump-committed-a-felony
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    So the Huawei arrest is coming back to haunt Canada as a second person has now gone missing in China.

    The first was an ex diplomat, Michael Kovrig that worked for a think tank, International Crisis Group. China stated that the reason for the arrest was due to International Crisis Group not being registered with the state making it illegal.

    Politicians from B.C. have also cancelled a trip to China in fear they will be targeted from retribution from China.

    Trump (and for that matter, the media who questioned him) are partly to blame as he said recently that he would interfere with the investigation if made China come to the bargaining table regarding the tariffs and trade. But that is just giving the Chinese government reason to start detaining people from North America to use as bargaining chips. I honestly think Korvig and Spavor are the first two.

    Meanwhile Meng Wanzhou posted bail in B.C. and is living in a house she owns in the province with a monitoring bracelet. The bail was $10 Million Canadian.

    Things are going to slowly get worse from here as this Liberal government is known for standing its ground on these types of issues. If I was Canadian and in China, I'd get out ASAP.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited December 2018
    The presumption and opinion presented here that this is somehow "bad" really pisses me off:



    Is it probably a nice courtesy to provide your employer two weeks notice before you leave?? Yeah, I suppose it is. But when exactly did this become a decree from God himself written in stone tablets with lightning and carried down the mountain by Moses himself?? You know what I find MORE distasteful?? Working an entire shift on a Friday afternoon and getting let go at ten minutes to five after working a full day with NO indication your job was in danger. Or just being told one day that you are the odd man out because the powers that be don't give a shit about you, hire some bean counter to assess the business, and decide your livelihood is expendable.

    Employers in this country are able to turn your life upside down without explanation or warning, but somehow when workers exercise the same rights of just flat-out walking away from a situation they don't like or feel exploited in, then THEY are the bad guys with bad manners. F**k that. I learned enough from my previous two jobs to ignore this asinine advice at my last temporary stop after I lost my job in the exact manner described above last year. Once I secured employment at a better opportunity, I did not continue playing by these rules. I hated being there, and I stopped coming in and informed them with a short phone call. Employees in the capitalistic wonderland don't owe employers jack shit unless they EARN that kind of respect. And this mentality that they are supposed to bend over backwards for the almighty business owner when that owner can screw them over at any time for any reason is part of the problem. Employers have been treating employees like dog-shit for decades. It's long past time they reap what they have sowed.

    In fact, I actually sort of love this gem in the comment section:

    If I ever win the lottery, I'm going to take up ghosting employers as a hobby.

    I could imagine this would be as amusing and cathartic as wedding crashing.

    Someone else offered these 11 tips for employers so people start trusting them again:

    1. Promote from within the company.
    2. Offer benefits.
    3. Pay better.
    4. Don't hire your idiot son/daughter as a manager.
    5. Are you anti-immigration? You might want to rethink that.
    6. Offer a FIXED schedule and guaranteed minimum hours.
    7. Ensure ALL employees are treated with respect. No "motivation" through threats.
    8. Don't monitor bathroom breaks. (for the love of God)
    9. Offer health insurance that doesn't cost half your wages.
    10. DO honor sick notes from physicians without penalties.
    11. State up front how often overtime was mandated in the last year.

    I could go on, but it boils down to treating humans like humans, not machines.
    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    The presumption and opinion presented here that this is somehow "bad" really pisses me off:



    Is it probably a nice courtesy to provide your employer two weeks notice before you leave?? Yeah, I suppose it is. But when exactly did this become a decree from God himself written in stone tablets with lightning and carried down the mountain by Moses himself?? You know what I find MORE distasteful?? Working an entire shift on a Friday afternoon and getting let go at ten minutes to five after working a full day with NO indication your job was in danger. Or just being told one day that you are the odd man out because the powers that be don't give a shit about you, hire some bean counter to assess the business, and decide your livelihood is expendable.

    Employers in this country are able to turn your life upside down without explanation or warning, but somehow when workers exercise the same rights of just flat-out walking away from a situation they don't like or feel exploited in, then THEY are the bad guys with bad manners. F**k that. I learned enough from my previous two jobs to ignore this asinine advice at my last temporary stop after I lost my job in the exact manner described above last year. Once I secured employment at a better opportunity, I did not continue playing by these rules. I hated being there, and I stopped coming in and informed them with a short phone call. Employees in the capitalistic wonderland don't owe employers jack shit unless they EARN that kind of respect. And this mentality that they are supposed to bend over backwards for the almighty business owner when that owner can screw them over at any time for any reason is part of the problem. Employers have been treating employees like dog-shit for decades. It's long past time they reap what they have sowed.

    In fact, I actually sort of love this gem in the comment section:

    If I ever win the lottery, i'm going to take up ghosting employers as a hobby.

    I could imagine this would be as amusing and cathartic as wedding crashing.
    The people you are screwing over the most is not the company when you do this, but your fellow employees who are in the same shit boat that you've just jumped out of, but you've made it shittier.
    At least with some warning, they can pick up a couple of shifts you're ditching to a) make more money and b) not be screwed over by being short staffed (even further than what the company puts you through) and wondering if you are just late or sick.

    The company itself doesn't care if you miss 3 shifts (the cut-off here for job abandonment) as they've just saved 24 man hours off the payroll.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    deltago said:

    The presumption and opinion presented here that this is somehow "bad" really pisses me off:



    Is it probably a nice courtesy to provide your employer two weeks notice before you leave?? Yeah, I suppose it is. But when exactly did this become a decree from God himself written in stone tablets with lightning and carried down the mountain by Moses himself?? You know what I find MORE distasteful?? Working an entire shift on a Friday afternoon and getting let go at ten minutes to five after working a full day with NO indication your job was in danger. Or just being told one day that you are the odd man out because the powers that be don't give a shit about you, hire some bean counter to assess the business, and decide your livelihood is expendable.

    Employers in this country are able to turn your life upside down without explanation or warning, but somehow when workers exercise the same rights of just flat-out walking away from a situation they don't like or feel exploited in, then THEY are the bad guys with bad manners. F**k that. I learned enough from my previous two jobs to ignore this asinine advice at my last temporary stop after I lost my job in the exact manner described above last year. Once I secured employment at a better opportunity, I did not continue playing by these rules. I hated being there, and I stopped coming in and informed them with a short phone call. Employees in the capitalistic wonderland don't owe employers jack shit unless they EARN that kind of respect. And this mentality that they are supposed to bend over backwards for the almighty business owner when that owner can screw them over at any time for any reason is part of the problem. Employers have been treating employees like dog-shit for decades. It's long past time they reap what they have sowed.

    In fact, I actually sort of love this gem in the comment section:

    If I ever win the lottery, i'm going to take up ghosting employers as a hobby.

    I could imagine this would be as amusing and cathartic as wedding crashing.
    The people you are screwing over the most is not the company when you do this, but your fellow employees who are in the same shit boat that you've just jumped out of, but you've made it shittier.
    At least with some warning, they can pick up a couple of shifts you're ditching to a) make more money and b) not be screwed over by being short staffed (even further than what the company puts you through) and wondering if you are just late or sick.

    The company itself doesn't care if you miss 3 shifts (the cut-off here for job abandonment) as they've just saved 24 man hours off the payroll.
    I used to have sympathy for this position. After being royally screwed at my last two long-term jobs I will never, ever feel this way again. It's not like your co-workers are going to walk out with you in solidarity when your life is turned upside down. American capitalism has turned it into "Lord of the Flies", so those are the rules I will play by going forward. I swore to myself I would never let it happen to me again after the first time, and then was lured into a false sense of security, convincing myself I was simply too important to the operation to be let go. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,320
    deltago said:

    So the Huawei arrest is coming back to haunt Canada as a second person has now gone missing in China.

    The first was an ex diplomat, Michael Kovrig that worked for a think tank, International Crisis Group. China stated that the reason for the arrest was due to International Crisis Group not being registered with the state making it illegal.

    Politicians from B.C. have also cancelled a trip to China in fear they will be targeted from retribution from China.

    Trump (and for that matter, the media who questioned him) are partly to blame as he said recently that he would interfere with the investigation if made China come to the bargaining table regarding the tariffs and trade. But that is just giving the Chinese government reason to start detaining people from North America to use as bargaining chips. I honestly think Korvig and Spavor are the first two.

    Meanwhile Meng Wanzhou posted bail in B.C. and is living in a house she owns in the province with a monitoring bracelet. The bail was $10 Million Canadian.

    Things are going to slowly get worse from here as this Liberal government is known for standing its ground on these types of issues. If I was Canadian and in China, I'd get out ASAP.

    I agree that the Chinese government is (and will continue to be) looking at retaliation. Some people may feel skeptical that the US government would interfere in judicial processes, but I don't imagine too many feel the same doubt about potential Chinese interference.

    If the case against Huawei and Meng had been progressed in a different fashion it could have been accepted as a business issue. However, by deliberately inflicting humiliation on her and linking the prosecution to the resolution of the trade dispute, this has become a personal matter for the Chinese state. At least in the short term I can't see any likelihood that they would accept anything short of the charges being fully withdrawn (even though as I said I think some charges are probably justified).

    I haven't done any research to look at whether Trump could halt the prosecution "in the national interest" if he wanted to. Perhaps someone could put me right on that, but off the top of my head it seems quite possible to me that, even though I suspect Trump influenced the timing and conduct of this case, he's actually unable to stop it even if he wanted to (I doubt if a Presidential pardon would be acceptable just at the moment to the Chinese as that implies guilt). In those circumstances there is a real danger that the overall dispute with China will escalate further.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited December 2018
    deltago said:

    So the Huawei arrest is coming back to haunt Canada as a second person has now gone missing in China.

    The first was an ex diplomat, Michael Kovrig that worked for a think tank, International Crisis Group. China stated that the reason for the arrest was due to International Crisis Group not being registered with the state making it illegal.

    Politicians from B.C. have also cancelled a trip to China in fear they will be targeted from retribution from China.

    Trump (and for that matter, the media who questioned him) are partly to blame as he said recently that he would interfere with the investigation if made China come to the bargaining table regarding the tariffs and trade. But that is just giving the Chinese government reason to start detaining people from North America to use as bargaining chips. I honestly think Korvig and Spavor are the first two.

    Meanwhile Meng Wanzhou posted bail in B.C. and is living in a house she owns in the province with a monitoring bracelet. The bail was $10 Million Canadian.

    Things are going to slowly get worse from here as this Liberal government is known for standing its ground on these types of issues. If I was Canadian and in China, I'd get out ASAP.

    The whole thing is odd. A Chinese executive arrested for violating unilateral US sanctions. China didn't agree to anything, they're US sanctions. Since when are we China's daddy?

    China probably has some ideas we don't agree with, does that mean they can arrest Americans willy nilly in foreign countries?

    China believes in the one China policy. Trump called Taiwan's president directly violating this policy. Does that mean the next time Trump goes to Canada they should arrest him and extradite him to china for breaking this law??

    So Canada rightfully deserves some flak for believing Trump's administration here. They don't deserve to be arrested or killed or anything but it seems like they did do a dumb thing by putting their trust in the Trump administration over dubious charges. Maybe there's more that we don't know but if it is for violating US sanctions on Iran then this whole thing just seems wrong.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited December 2018
    It has been made clear by the Reuters article I read today that we are basically holding this woman HOSTAGE over trade negotiations. There is no other way to read the situation. The United States is Al Pacino in "Dog Day Afternoon" or Alan Rickman in "Die Hard". What should we expect at this point?? There is a criminal syndicate operating out of the White House, and until it is removed things will only descend further and further into the abyss.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,320

    So Canada rightfully deserves some flak for believing Trump's administration here. They don't deserve to be arrested or killed or anything but it seems like they did do a dumb thing by putting their trust in the Trump administration over dubious charges. Maybe there's more that we don't know but if it is for violating US sanctions on Iran then this whole thing just seems wrong.

    I suspect Canada could have shown more leniency over things like shackling of the prisoner and speed of obtaining bail. However, in order to be law-abiding themselves they had to respond to the US requirement to arrest Meng.

    In relation to the charges they are not directly associated with sanction breaking. The argument is that:
    - Skycom broke sanctions
    - Huawei controls Skycom
    - Huawei entered into transactions with US banks on the understanding that they were not involved in breaking sanctions, i.e. making a fraudulent claim.

    From what I've seen published the charges seem to rely on Meng having used a powerpoint presentation to a US bank in 2013 saying Huawei had no association with Skycom or involvement in sanctions breaking. As I've noted before the fact that there was an association of sorts between the companies was public knowledge even at that time and since then the US has had multiple opportunities to inquire into this if they wished to. There are also no US financial institutions claiming fraud - this is an action entirely brought by the government.

    I would thus certainly agree with you that the charges are dubious, but I think it's quite possible she is technically guilty of fraud (similar types of misrepresentations of course will certainly have been made by US companies in China - as we may find out in the coming months). It's less the charges themselves, but the way they've been implemented that gets up my nose - and I think the same goes for the Chinese.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    edited December 2018

    Confronted by Black Lives Matter Activist, Tennessee Governor Says He’s Considering Clemency for Cyntoia Brown

    https://www.theroot.com/confronted-by-black-lives-matter-activist-tennessee-go-1831041097?utm_source=theroot_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow&fbclid=IwAR2Uly5xw2mjyJswHlAN2OyNW2-h2HuEkncwodPO4XwVloIgTuVRvIQmCXE

    Canto Brown- On Aug. 6, 2004, when she was 16, Brown was picked up by 43-year-old Johnny Mitchell Allen, who planned on paying Brown for sex. Paranoid from drugs and abuse, Brown reportedly became convinced that Allen was going to kill her. She fired one bullet into Allen’s chest, drove his car to a Wal-Mart parking lot and walked back to her hotel to meet “Cut-Throat,” a pimp who been providing her with drugs while abusing her physically and emotionally, allegedly holding her at gunpoint on a nightly basis.
    Brown was tried and convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to serve a prison term of 51 years to life. Since being incarcerated, Brown has gone on to graduate from high school and college while repeatedly fighting for her release.
    She was granted a clemency hearing earlier this year before the six-member Tennessee Board of Parole, citing a recent Supreme Court Decision that banned life sentences for juveniles. The board eventually denied her request for clemency after a split vote. On Dec. 6, the Tennessee Supreme Court ruled that Brown must serve 51 years before she is eligible for parole.
    If he so chooses, Haslam can use his powers of executive clemency to pardon Brown, which is a formal statement of forgiveness but does not clear her record, or he could choose to commute her sentence to a shorter term, including time served.

    So, I think she should get off for time served, but the fact that she was a victim of sex trafficking and kept addicted to drugs is horrendous. She was also a victim, and she in no way should have to serve 51 years in prison before being eligible for parole.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVcVLqF_yZw
    Despite Donald Trump's promises, disastrous new layoff announcements from Ford and General Motors show that the American can industry is getting crushed under the current administration

    So, Trump really screwed over Car Industry workers. The companies are getting crushed by his tariffs, so they have to lay off workers. Not only People working in the Car Industry are being let down by Trump, but also those in the coal industry. Trump made promises he couldn't keep. To quote someone I know "Don't make threats or promises that your ass can't cover!"

    This isn't Trump who is suffering, it's people who voted for him. People who believed his lies. They don't deserve to suffer just because of our liar in chief.
    Edited to fix typo
    Post edited by LadyRhian on
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    A follow-up to the Auto industry video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLfaAfiuqOA
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    The oil industry has been spending money to change legal fuel efficiency standards and manipulate public opinion via Facebook ads.
    In Congress, on Facebook and in statehouses nationwide, Marathon Petroleum, the country’s largest refiner, worked with powerful oil-industry groups and a conservative policy network financed by the billionaire industrialist Charles G. Koch to run a stealth campaign to roll back car emissions standards, a New York Times investigation has found.

    This has become far too common and far too unsurprising in our country. It's far too easy for wealthy groups to buy political power and re-write laws for their own benefit. I don't see why the leaders of a wealthy corporation are entitled to more political power than ordinary Americans simply because they have millions of dollars to burn on lobbying and PR work.

    Billionaires already have the right to vote, speak, and run for political office. Why would they deserve more political powers than the rest of us?
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367

    The oil industry has been spending money to change legal fuel efficiency standards and manipulate public opinion via Facebook ads.

    In Congress, on Facebook and in statehouses nationwide, Marathon Petroleum, the country’s largest refiner, worked with powerful oil-industry groups and a conservative policy network financed by the billionaire industrialist Charles G. Koch to run a stealth campaign to roll back car emissions standards, a New York Times investigation has found.

    This has become far too common and far too unsurprising in our country. It's far too easy for wealthy groups to buy political power and re-write laws for their own benefit. I don't see why the leaders of a wealthy corporation are entitled to more political power than ordinary Americans simply because they have millions of dollars to burn on lobbying and PR work.

    Billionaires already have the right to vote, speak, and run for political office. Why would they deserve more political powers than the rest of us?
    Because they have the power to make decisions ordinary people do not. I'm not saying it's democratic because it isn't, but I'm sorry, they're in positions that affect way more than a few people. A corporation that employs thousands of people is more important than Joe Blow who can't pay his electric bill and is pissed off because he can't get a great job since he decided to smoke weed instead of going to college or trade school. God may see all people as equals, but that is not reality...
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