The letter from Barr to Committee members is here. I don't agree that this letter confirms that the concerns expressed about actions by the campaign were all unfounded. I do accept that the Mueller investigation has been apolitical and thorough (unlike for instance the Kavanaugh investigation). As such I would not expect to dispute its findings, but I'm unconvinced that we yet know what those findings are.
There are a couple of issues arising from the phrasing in the letter:
- the first half of the report is said to be about the crimes committed by Russians and a consideration of any potential involvement of the Trump campaign in these. The letter quotes this from the report: "the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities". It is possible that that statement reflects a conclusion that members of the campaign did not conspire or coordinate. It is certainly also possible, however, that the report includes concerns about this, but that it was not possible to prove a criminal case - for instance because the motivations behind certain actions could not be established.
- the second half of the report sets out the case for and against Trump's actions constituting obstruction of justice. The fact that the report does not conclude this was not obstruction of justice is in itself suggestive of a problem. Barr's letter says he has determined there was no obstruction. In doing that Barr says he gave weight to the following quote from Mueller's report: "the evidence does not establish that the President was involved in an underlying crime related to Russian election interference". The law on obstruction of justice requires the obstruction to have a sufficient nexus to a legal proceeding and, if Trump is not a party to a crime, proving obstruction of justice would be extremely difficult. It sounds to me as though the decision not to prosecute is a correct one, but that's very far from saying there are no concerns over Trump's actions.
If there's been any clear media climate in the UK about this investigation over the last 2 years, that hasn't been claims of conspiracy by the liberal media, but the continual claims by Trump and his media supporters that this was a witch hunt. From the very limited information in Barr's letter I would be amazed if the report does in fact vindicate Trump's claims about that. Rather, I suspect it includes very real concerns about the actions of both Trump and his campaign. However, unless and until it is published that's still conjecture.
Tin-foil hat please. It's only a wacky conspiracy theory if it's on the other side apparently. Bush conspired to blow up the World Trade Center. Bush 'knew' there were no WMD in Iraq even though they had used them on their own people. That's because he's an evil war-monger who wanted to slaughter thousands of innocents. But Pizzagate is total fantasy because it involves somebody on 'my' side. Everybody is so full of shit these days I'm starting to wonder why I bother posting anymore...
Btw - For the record, Pizzagate is BS but so is the fantasy that Bush is a mass-murderer.
Regardless of whether Bush personally knew that the WMD claims were bogus, his administration ran torture camps. That is certainly evil enough for me.
It's a cover-up achieved by firing Sessions and Comey and installing Whitaker and then Barr and ending the investigation before it could reach a conclusion.
Tin-foil hat please. It's only a wacky conspiracy theory if it's on the other side apparently. Bush conspired to blow up the World Trade Center. Bush 'knew' there were no WMD in Iraq even though they had used them on their own people. That's because he's an evil war-monger who wanted to slaughter thousands of innocents. But Pizzagate is total fantasy because it involves somebody on 'my' side. Everybody is so full of shit these days I'm starting to wonder why I bother posting anymore...
Btw - For the record, Pizzagate is BS but so is the fantasy that Bush is a mass-murderer.
Bush knowing something is an overstatement by itself.
As to the WMD, a lot of America’s closest allies at the time knew what was being presented to them was false and told the American government point blank that it was false. It’s why you had Freedom Fries for awhile. It’s why Canada said no right after the presentation.
It can be assumed however, that the Bush administration was looking to boost their approval ratings and the only other time that had happened in his tenure was right after 9/11 and he declared war on a noun.
It can also be said 9/11 occurred because the administration did not take the evidence that was being presented to them seriously. People have drawn their own conclusions onto why it wasn’t being taken seriously because no one asked at them time.
Tin-foil hat please. It's only a wacky conspiracy theory if it's on the other side apparently. Bush conspired to blow up the World Trade Center. Bush 'knew' there were no WMD in Iraq even though they had used them on their own people. That's because he's an evil war-monger who wanted to slaughter thousands of innocents. But Pizzagate is total fantasy because it involves somebody on 'my' side. Everybody is so full of shit these days I'm starting to wonder why I bother posting anymore...
Btw - For the record, Pizzagate is BS but so is the fantasy that Bush is a mass-murderer.
Regardless of whether Bush personally knew that the WMD claims were bogus, his administration ran torture camps. That is certainly evil enough for me.
How many lives were saved by the 'torture' (ie: waterboarding) camps? We'll likely never know. I'd need to know that before I dismissed him as 'evil'. It's not possible to quantify lives saved so we'll never know how many people are alive today because of Hiroshima and Nagasaki either, or the Korean War or any other questionable action of government. Sit on your high horse and judge people who have to make real decisions if you like, but don't tell me that they're 'evil'.
Tin-foil hat please. It's only a wacky conspiracy theory if it's on the other side apparently. Bush conspired to blow up the World Trade Center. Bush 'knew' there were no WMD in Iraq even though they had used them on their own people. That's because he's an evil war-monger who wanted to slaughter thousands of innocents. But Pizzagate is total fantasy because it involves somebody on 'my' side. Everybody is so full of shit these days I'm starting to wonder why I bother posting anymore...
Btw - For the record, Pizzagate is BS but so is the fantasy that Bush is a mass-murderer.
Regardless of whether Bush personally knew that the WMD claims were bogus, his administration ran torture camps. That is certainly evil enough for me.
How many lives were saved by the 'torture' (ie: waterboarding) camps?
Barr said in the summary that Trump didn't obstruct justice because Mueller couldn't prove conspiracy. Basically he is arguing that if you obstruct enough that the initial crime can not be proven then you can't be charged with obstruction either.
Tin-foil hat please. It's only a wacky conspiracy theory if it's on the other side apparently. Bush conspired to blow up the World Trade Center. Bush 'knew' there were no WMD in Iraq even though they had used them on their own people. That's because he's an evil war-monger who wanted to slaughter thousands of innocents. But Pizzagate is total fantasy because it involves somebody on 'my' side. Everybody is so full of shit these days I'm starting to wonder why I bother posting anymore...
Btw - For the record, Pizzagate is BS but so is the fantasy that Bush is a mass-murderer.
Regardless of whether Bush personally knew that the WMD claims were bogus, his administration ran torture camps. That is certainly evil enough for me.
How many lives were saved by the 'torture' (ie: waterboarding) camps?
Zero. Any other answer is a fallacy.
Really, how so? Did not having to invade Japan also save '0' lives. Even if we or the USSR didn't invade and slaughter 10s of thousands, how many Japanese would have starved to death because of our blockade? If you tell me the number is '0' I'll say that you're full of shit.
Are you privy to all of the intelligence we got from waterboarding? I sincerely doubt it.
Tin-foil hat please. It's only a wacky conspiracy theory if it's on the other side apparently. Bush conspired to blow up the World Trade Center. Bush 'knew' there were no WMD in Iraq even though they had used them on their own people. That's because he's an evil war-monger who wanted to slaughter thousands of innocents. But Pizzagate is total fantasy because it involves somebody on 'my' side. Everybody is so full of shit these days I'm starting to wonder why I bother posting anymore...
Btw - For the record, Pizzagate is BS but so is the fantasy that Bush is a mass-murderer.
Regardless of whether Bush personally knew that the WMD claims were bogus, his administration ran torture camps. That is certainly evil enough for me.
How many lives were saved by the 'torture' (ie: waterboarding) camps? We'll likely never know. I'd need to know that before I dismissed him as 'evil'. It's not possible to quantify lives saved so we'll never know how many people are alive today because of Hiroshima and Nagasaki either, or the Korean War or any other questionable action of government. Sit on your high horse and judge people who have to make real decisions if you like, but don't tell me that they're 'evil'.
Committing heinous acts for some nebulous remotely possible future good is evil, if the word has any meaning at all. If you look at the worst actors in history they were very often those who fell in love with making the "difficult decisions" and "doing what is necessary". This is just more of the same - especially considering that the general ineffectiveness of torture as way of informing reliable information is pretty well documented.
As for "high horse" I would be careful with that, because for someone who claims we shouldn't judge, you do so fairly often. You were pretty quick to judge the left was just trying to smear Kavanaugh for example...
Barr said in the summary that Trump didn't obstruct justice because Mueller couldn't prove conspiracy. Basically he is arguing that if you obstruct enough that the initial crime can not be proven then you can't be charged with obstruction either.
That is messed up.
Or, just maybe, there wasn't any 'collusion'. Sorry, that's far too obvious. Must be a conspiracy. Occam's Razor be damned, there has to be a high-level conspiracy involving hundreds of people all sworn to secrecy and loyal to Trump to the end, because he's so loyal to his people.
Tin-foil hat please. It's only a wacky conspiracy theory if it's on the other side apparently. Bush conspired to blow up the World Trade Center. Bush 'knew' there were no WMD in Iraq even though they had used them on their own people. That's because he's an evil war-monger who wanted to slaughter thousands of innocents. But Pizzagate is total fantasy because it involves somebody on 'my' side. Everybody is so full of shit these days I'm starting to wonder why I bother posting anymore...
Btw - For the record, Pizzagate is BS but so is the fantasy that Bush is a mass-murderer.
Regardless of whether Bush personally knew that the WMD claims were bogus, his administration ran torture camps. That is certainly evil enough for me.
How many lives were saved by the 'torture' (ie: waterboarding) camps?
Zero. Any other answer is a fallacy.
Really, how so? Did not having to invade Japan also save '0' lives. Even if we or the USSR didn't invade and slaughter 10s of thousands, how many Japanese would have starved to death because of our blockade? If you tell me the number is '0' I'll say that you're full of shit.
Are you privy to all of the intelligence we got from waterboarding? I sincerely doubt it.
What does dropping a bomb on a nation that refused to quit fighting have to do with water boarding individuals who were apprehended not fighting the Americans, but being pointed out as someone who might have information regarding the taliban.
Let me put it in more equal terms: An individual at your daughters school stole something from a store. To get the item back, the police conduct strip searches of everyone in the school even after the item is found to make sure there was no other crime committed or about to be committed. Do you agree with that approach?
Tin-foil hat please. It's only a wacky conspiracy theory if it's on the other side apparently. Bush conspired to blow up the World Trade Center. Bush 'knew' there were no WMD in Iraq even though they had used them on their own people. That's because he's an evil war-monger who wanted to slaughter thousands of innocents. But Pizzagate is total fantasy because it involves somebody on 'my' side. Everybody is so full of shit these days I'm starting to wonder why I bother posting anymore...
Btw - For the record, Pizzagate is BS but so is the fantasy that Bush is a mass-murderer.
Regardless of whether Bush personally knew that the WMD claims were bogus, his administration ran torture camps. That is certainly evil enough for me.
How many lives were saved by the 'torture' (ie: waterboarding) camps?
Zero. Any other answer is a fallacy.
Really, how so? Did not having to invade Japan also save '0' lives. Even if we or the USSR didn't invade and slaughter 10s of thousands, how many Japanese would have starved to death because of our blockade? If you tell me the number is '0' I'll say that you're full of shit.
Are you privy to all of the intelligence we got from waterboarding? I sincerely doubt it.
What does dropping a bomb on a nation that refused to quit fighting have to do with water boarding individuals who were apprehended not fighting the Americans, but being pointed out as someone who might have information regarding the taliban.
Let me put it in more equal terms: An individual at your daughters school stole something from a store. To get the item back, the police conduct strip searches of everyone in the school even after the item is found to make sure there was no other crime committed or about to be committed. Do you agree with that approach?
Nope, but if the asshole was part of a group threatening to bomb her school I'd be far less likely to give a damn about him. Sorry, I care more about my daughter than I do about an asshole. I sincerely doubt they were torturing random civilians. Any proof of that?
Barr said in the summary that Trump didn't obstruct justice because Mueller couldn't prove conspiracy. Basically he is arguing that if you obstruct enough that the initial crime can not be proven then you can't be charged with obstruction either.
That is messed up.
Or, just maybe, there wasn't any 'collusion'. Sorry, that's far too obvious. Must be a conspiracy. Occam's Razor be damned, there has to be a high-level conspiracy involving hundreds of people all sworn to secrecy and loyal to Trump to the end, because he's so loyal to his people.
He's not loyal to his people at all. Haven't you noticed him throwing multiple people under the bus that used to work for him including his lawyer for over 9 years? Loyalty is a one way street.
Why did the Russian government attempt to cultivate Trump as an asset and have leverage over him? Why else would Trump and his associates welcome the help of a foreign hostile power? What financial incentives does Trump have to favor Russia?
Why did Michael Flynn lie about Russia contacts and why did the president wait so long to fire Flynn? Why aren't Trump’s family members or associates who lied to Congress as proven by documents and testimony of others not indicted?
There were two main Russian efforts, one through primarily through social media and the other via email hacks disseminated through intermediaries such as WikiLeaks, to interfere with our election on Trump's behalf, the claim that there is uncertainty about who interfered with the election and on whose behalf is a lie and part of this cover-up.
Occrams razor there was collusion. This report is a white-wash and happened because of Republican collusion to cover crimes by the corrupt Republican party. They are in too deep with a conman and don't care if they commit more crimes covering it up.
Tin-foil hat please. It's only a wacky conspiracy theory if it's on the other side apparently. Bush conspired to blow up the World Trade Center. Bush 'knew' there were no WMD in Iraq even though they had used them on their own people. That's because he's an evil war-monger who wanted to slaughter thousands of innocents. But Pizzagate is total fantasy because it involves somebody on 'my' side. Everybody is so full of shit these days I'm starting to wonder why I bother posting anymore...
Btw - For the record, Pizzagate is BS but so is the fantasy that Bush is a mass-murderer.
Regardless of whether Bush personally knew that the WMD claims were bogus, his administration ran torture camps. That is certainly evil enough for me.
How many lives were saved by the 'torture' (ie: waterboarding) camps?
Zero. Any other answer is a fallacy.
Really, how so? Did not having to invade Japan also save '0' lives. Even if we or the USSR didn't invade and slaughter 10s of thousands, how many Japanese would have starved to death because of our blockade? If you tell me the number is '0' I'll say that you're full of shit.
Are you privy to all of the intelligence we got from waterboarding? I sincerely doubt it.
What does dropping a bomb on a nation that refused to quit fighting have to do with water boarding individuals who were apprehended not fighting the Americans, but being pointed out as someone who might have information regarding the taliban.
Let me put it in more equal terms: An individual at your daughters school stole something from a store. To get the item back, the police conduct strip searches of everyone in the school even after the item is found to make sure there was no other crime committed or about to be committed. Do you agree with that approach?
Nope, but if the asshole was part of a group threatening to bomb her school I'd be far less likely to give a damn about him. Sorry, I care more about my daughter than I do about an asshole. I sincerely doubt they were torturing random civilians. Any proof of that?
Sure:
Not all people sent to guantanamo bay was proven to be part of the Talaban or ISIS, in fact many are denied trials to prove their innocence.
Although the Bush administration said most of the men had been captured fighting in Afghanistan, a 2006 report prepared by the Center for Policy and Research at Seton Hall University Law School reviewed DoD data for the remaining 517 men in 2005 and "established that over 80% of the prisoners were captured not by Americans on the battlefield but by Pakistanis and Afghans, often in exchange for bounty payments."The U.S. widely distributed leaflets in the region and offered $5,000 per prisoner. One example is Adel Noori, a Chinese Uyghur and dissident who had been sold to the US by Pakistani bounty hunters.
Tin-foil hat please. It's only a wacky conspiracy theory if it's on the other side apparently. Bush conspired to blow up the World Trade Center. Bush 'knew' there were no WMD in Iraq even though they had used them on their own people. That's because he's an evil war-monger who wanted to slaughter thousands of innocents. But Pizzagate is total fantasy because it involves somebody on 'my' side. Everybody is so full of shit these days I'm starting to wonder why I bother posting anymore...
Btw - For the record, Pizzagate is BS but so is the fantasy that Bush is a mass-murderer.
Regardless of whether Bush personally knew that the WMD claims were bogus, his administration ran torture camps. That is certainly evil enough for me.
How many lives were saved by the 'torture' (ie: waterboarding) camps? We'll likely never know. I'd need to know that before I dismissed him as 'evil'. It's not possible to quantify lives saved so we'll never know how many people are alive today because of Hiroshima and Nagasaki either, or the Korean War or any other questionable action of government. Sit on your high horse and judge people who have to make real decisions if you like, but don't tell me that they're 'evil'.
Committing heinous acts for some nebulous remotely possible future good is evil, if the word has any meaning at all. If you look at the worst actors in history they were very often those who fell in love with making the "difficult decisions" and "doing what is necessary". This is just more of the same - especially considering that the general ineffectiveness of torture as way of informing reliable information is pretty well documented.
As for "high horse" I would be careful with that, because for someone who claims we shouldn't judge, you do so fairly often. You were pretty quick to judge the left was just trying to smear Kavanaugh for example...
Where are the people complaining about Kavanaugh now? Has the money dried up funding them perchance?
For the record, if you take the time to look back, you'll find that my opinion was they should have ditched Kananaugh and found somebody else. Irish or not, Kavanaugh should not have been appointed, but it became a no-holds-barred fight to the end just like everything else in our polarized country.
As for the torture thing, where's your evidence that nothing worthwhile came of it? Theories of reliability are just that, theories. Show me the evidence of no results. You can't anymore than I can give you results that it was worthwhile. It seems to me that if it really was so 'worthless', Obama would have made that fact well known. He didn't...
Rachel ( Mad Cow) Maddow, Don (Citrus Fruit) Lemon, Anderson ( Vanderbilt ) Cooper, Chris (My daddy got me this job) Cuomo and the rest of the dross on Left leaning media should be held accountable for toying with people's emotions just for ratings and fame. These parasites have made millions on conspiracies and ridding the Trump train since 2016. Tune these traitors out, they are only going to make everyone chase the next pipe dream narrative given to them by their higher ups on Trump.
Rachel ( Mad Cow) Maddow, Don (Citrus Fruit) Lemon, Anderson ( Vanderbilt ) Cooper, Chris (My daddy got me this job) Cuomo and the rest of the dross on Left leaning media should be held accountable for toying with people's emotions just for ratings and fame. These parasites have made millions on conspiracies and ridding the Trump train since 2016. Tune these traitors out, they are only going to make everyone chase the next pipe dream narrative given to them by their higher ups on Trump.
To be fair, the Trump sycophants on Fox News and AM radio are just as pathetic. All of them make me nauseous in that we're supposed to believe that they have some kind of 'insight' on which side is in the 'right'.
Edit: Rush Limbaugh, who I used to respect as a rare conservative viewpoint, has sold his soul to Trump. Pathetic...
Personally, I think it's best if Democrats simply back off from this and acknowledge that this theory that Trump actively cooperated with Russian officials just wasn't true. We did need to investigate it, the Mueller investigation had to be done, and the investigation caught several major criminals in the process, but now that the investigation is over, this theory didn't pan out--or at least, whatever evidence does exist simply isn't strong enough to support the theory conclusively. We can let this go, and we should.
But I think Republicans need to acknowledge that this theory did not come out of nowhere. It was based on Trump's own actions and statements and a steady stream of data about his administration. Trump did act exactly how a guilty person would act in this situation. He did repeatedly defend Putin and Russia despite having no real reason to do so. He did repeatedly attack law enforcement and attempt to stop the investigation despite having no real reason to do so. And multiple members of his administration did lie about their contacts with Russian officials despite having no real reason to do.
Democrats did not make up those facts. They were never theories; they were things the Trump administration did every day. This is why so many people believed in the collusion theory.
Tin-foil hat please. It's only a wacky conspiracy theory if it's on the other side apparently. Bush conspired to blow up the World Trade Center. Bush 'knew' there were no WMD in Iraq even though they had used them on their own people. That's because he's an evil war-monger who wanted to slaughter thousands of innocents. But Pizzagate is total fantasy because it involves somebody on 'my' side. Everybody is so full of shit these days I'm starting to wonder why I bother posting anymore...
Btw - For the record, Pizzagate is BS but so is the fantasy that Bush is a mass-murderer.
Regardless of whether Bush personally knew that the WMD claims were bogus, his administration ran torture camps. That is certainly evil enough for me.
How many lives were saved by the 'torture' (ie: waterboarding) camps? We'll likely never know. I'd need to know that before I dismissed him as 'evil'. It's not possible to quantify lives saved so we'll never know how many people are alive today because of Hiroshima and Nagasaki either, or the Korean War or any other questionable action of government. Sit on your high horse and judge people who have to make real decisions if you like, but don't tell me that they're 'evil'.
Committing heinous acts for some nebulous remotely possible future good is evil, if the word has any meaning at all. If you look at the worst actors in history they were very often those who fell in love with making the "difficult decisions" and "doing what is necessary". This is just more of the same - especially considering that the general ineffectiveness of torture as way of informing reliable information is pretty well documented.
As for "high horse" I would be careful with that, because for someone who claims we shouldn't judge, you do so fairly often. You were pretty quick to judge the left was just trying to smear Kavanaugh for example...
Where are the people complaining about Kavanaugh now? Has the money dried up funding them perchance?
For the record, if you take the time to look back, you'll find that my opinion was they should have ditched Kananaugh and found somebody else. Irish or not, Kavanaugh should not have been appointed, but it became a no-holds-barred fight to the end just like everything else in our polarized country.
As for the torture thing, where's your evidence that nothing worthwhile came of it? Theories of reliability are just that, theories. Show me the evidence of no results. You can't anymore than I can give you results that it was worthwhile. It seems to me that if it really was so 'worthless', Obama would have made that fact well known. He didn't...
So back to my claim about doing a complete strip search at your daughters school to find a stolen item. Was the process worth getting the stolen item back? Or would there have been less intrusive ways to get what they were looking for. Doing a complete strip search was easy and the most effort way to find the property.
Now should the American government relied on bounty hunters to turn in suspected terrorist and then not give those suspects a trial to determine thier innocence or guilt and then torture said individuals just on the possibility that they may know something regarding the Taliban’s actions?
Was that conduct the best way to get the support of the population they were attempting to save and protect?
Tin-foil hat please. It's only a wacky conspiracy theory if it's on the other side apparently. Bush conspired to blow up the World Trade Center. Bush 'knew' there were no WMD in Iraq even though they had used them on their own people. That's because he's an evil war-monger who wanted to slaughter thousands of innocents. But Pizzagate is total fantasy because it involves somebody on 'my' side. Everybody is so full of shit these days I'm starting to wonder why I bother posting anymore...
Btw - For the record, Pizzagate is BS but so is the fantasy that Bush is a mass-murderer.
Regardless of whether Bush personally knew that the WMD claims were bogus, his administration ran torture camps. That is certainly evil enough for me.
How many lives were saved by the 'torture' (ie: waterboarding) camps? We'll likely never know. I'd need to know that before I dismissed him as 'evil'. It's not possible to quantify lives saved so we'll never know how many people are alive today because of Hiroshima and Nagasaki either, or the Korean War or any other questionable action of government. Sit on your high horse and judge people who have to make real decisions if you like, but don't tell me that they're 'evil'.
Committing heinous acts for some nebulous remotely possible future good is evil, if the word has any meaning at all. If you look at the worst actors in history they were very often those who fell in love with making the "difficult decisions" and "doing what is necessary". This is just more of the same - especially considering that the general ineffectiveness of torture as way of informing reliable information is pretty well documented.
As for "high horse" I would be careful with that, because for someone who claims we shouldn't judge, you do so fairly often. You were pretty quick to judge the left was just trying to smear Kavanaugh for example...
Where are the people complaining about Kavanaugh now? Has the money dried up funding them perchance?
For the record, if you take the time to look back, you'll find that my opinion was they should have ditched Kananaugh and found somebody else. Irish or not, Kavanaugh should not have been appointed, but it became a no-holds-barred fight to the end just like everything else in our polarized country.
As for the torture thing, where's your evidence that nothing worthwhile came of it? Theories of reliability are just that, theories. Show me the evidence of no results. You can't anymore than I can give you results that it was worthwhile. It seems to me that if it really was so 'worthless', Obama would have made that fact well known. He didn't...
Personally, I think it's best if Democrats simply back off from this and acknowledge that this theory that Trump actively cooperated with Russian officials just wasn't true. We did need to investigate it, the Mueller investigation had to be done, and the investigation caught several major criminals in the process, but now that the investigation is over, this theory didn't pan out--or at least, whatever evidence does exist simply isn't strong enough to support the theory conclusively. We can let this go, and we should.
But I think Republicans need to acknowledge that this theory did not come out of nowhere. It was based on Trump's own actions and statements and a steady stream of data about his administration. Trump did act exactly how a guilty person would act in this situation. He did repeatedly defend Putin and Russia despite having no real reason to do so. He did repeatedly attack law enforcement and attempt to stop the investigation despite having no real reason to do so. And multiple members of his administration did lie about their contacts with Russian officials despite having no real reason to do.
Democrats did not make up those facts. They were never theories; they were things the Trump administration did every day. This is why so many people believed in the collusion theory.
Trump did that precisely to fire up his base. He's too obtuse to be a ringleader of a conspiracy as intricate as what is being portrayed. I wish I could feel guilty about voting for him but I still loathe the 'Chosen One' too much to really feel bad about it.
I keep hearing suggestions that people who supported the collusion theory need to be "held accountable," that they need to be "punished," that they need to be "investigated," that they need to be "punished," and I find it incredible that people are actually suggesting that folks who believed the story needs to be locked up or something. When I checked Twitter, there were multiple people called for unspecified reprisals for the media, for Democrats, and for anyone who believed in the collusion theory.
It's absurd, it's un-American, and it's unconstitutional to punish someone for having a different opinion than you. That is a basic, fundamental, inalienable First Amendment right, as all Americans well know.
When we advocate punishment for people who disagree with us, we oppose freedom of speech. There are no exceptions to that rule.
I keep hearing suggestions that people who supported the collusion theory need to be "held accountable," that they need to be "punished," that they need to be "investigated," that they need to be "punished," and I find it incredible that people are actually suggesting that folks who believed the story needs to be locked up or something. When I checked Twitter, there were multiple people called for unspecified reprisals for the media, for Democrats, and for anyone who believed in the collusion theory.
It's absurd, it's un-American, and it's unconstitutional to punish someone for having a different opinion than you. That is a basic, fundamental, inalienable First Amendment right, as all Americans well know.
When we advocate punishment for people who disagree with us, we oppose freedom of speech. There are no exceptions to that rule.
I'm not afraid to argue my beliefs and I may point out things about others' beliefs that I think are wrong or misguided. But I hope I've never told anybody how to think. That is anathema to me. I try to streer people to my way of thinking by logic and if other's logic sway me, so be it. I'm actually much more conducive to health-care reform than I used to be thanks to you folks here. I hope that I've at least made you think about my viewpoints in exchange...
I'm not afraid to argue my beliefs and I may point out things about others' beliefs that I think are wrong or misguided. But I hope I've never told anybody how to think. That is anathema to me. I try to streer people to my way of thinking by logic and if other's logic sway me, so be it. I'm actually much more conducive to health-care reform than I used to be thanks to you folks here. I hope that I've at least made you think about my viewpoints in exchange...
Yup. Many times! It's one of the reasons I like this thread. The free marketplace of ideas is always the best way to resolve these disagreements.
Tin-foil hat please. It's only a wacky conspiracy theory if it's on the other side apparently. Bush conspired to blow up the World Trade Center. Bush 'knew' there were no WMD in Iraq even though they had used them on their own people. That's because he's an evil war-monger who wanted to slaughter thousands of innocents. But Pizzagate is total fantasy because it involves somebody on 'my' side. Everybody is so full of shit these days I'm starting to wonder why I bother posting anymore...
Btw - For the record, Pizzagate is BS but so is the fantasy that Bush is a mass-murderer.
Regardless of whether Bush personally knew that the WMD claims were bogus, his administration ran torture camps. That is certainly evil enough for me.
How many lives were saved by the 'torture' (ie: waterboarding) camps? We'll likely never know. I'd need to know that before I dismissed him as 'evil'. It's not possible to quantify lives saved so we'll never know how many people are alive today because of Hiroshima and Nagasaki either, or the Korean War or any other questionable action of government. Sit on your high horse and judge people who have to make real decisions if you like, but don't tell me that they're 'evil'.
Committing heinous acts for some nebulous remotely possible future good is evil, if the word has any meaning at all. If you look at the worst actors in history they were very often those who fell in love with making the "difficult decisions" and "doing what is necessary". This is just more of the same - especially considering that the general ineffectiveness of torture as way of informing reliable information is pretty well documented.
As for "high horse" I would be careful with that, because for someone who claims we shouldn't judge, you do so fairly often. You were pretty quick to judge the left was just trying to smear Kavanaugh for example...
Where are the people complaining about Kavanaugh now? Has the money dried up funding them perchance?
For the record, if you take the time to look back, you'll find that my opinion was they should have ditched Kananaugh and found somebody else. Irish or not, Kavanaugh should not have been appointed, but it became a no-holds-barred fight to the end just like everything else in our polarized country.
As for the torture thing, where's your evidence that nothing worthwhile came of it? Theories of reliability are just that, theories. Show me the evidence of no results. You can't anymore than I can give you results that it was worthwhile. It seems to me that if it really was so 'worthless', Obama would have made that fact well known. He didn't...
So back to my claim about doing a complete strip search at your daughters school to find a stolen item. Was the process worth getting the stolen item back? Or would there have been less intrusive ways to get what they were looking for. Doing a complete strip search was easy and the most effort way to find the property.
Now should the American government relied on bounty hunters to turn in suspected terrorist and then not give those suspects a trial to determine thier innocence or guilt and then torture said individuals just on the possibility that they may know something regarding the Taliban’s actions?
Was that conduct the best way to get the support of the population they were attempting to save and protect?
Last year we had an Iraqi intern where I work and I asked him what the rank-and-file Iraqis think of the US. They don't hate us. He said that he and most of his friends were only sorry that we got out too soon and left too much chaos behind. I'm not lying. He even had a cousin that was killed in the 'shock and awe' bombing and still doesn't hate us. Don't assume that people that are used to oppression feel the same way as we who live in perpetual security. It's not an apples to apples comparison.
People are allowed to have an opinion, those that have a narrative to deceive because their Monarch didn't get chosen should not.
Trump's the biggest liar of them all, he doesn't offer opinions but lies over 10k now probably last I saw was in the 8ks since election. What's his punishment?
Comments
How many electrum pieces is that?
There are a couple of issues arising from the phrasing in the letter:
- the first half of the report is said to be about the crimes committed by Russians and a consideration of any potential involvement of the Trump campaign in these. The letter quotes this from the report: "the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities". It is possible that that statement reflects a conclusion that members of the campaign did not conspire or coordinate. It is certainly also possible, however, that the report includes concerns about this, but that it was not possible to prove a criminal case - for instance because the motivations behind certain actions could not be established.
- the second half of the report sets out the case for and against Trump's actions constituting obstruction of justice. The fact that the report does not conclude this was not obstruction of justice is in itself suggestive of a problem. Barr's letter says he has determined there was no obstruction. In doing that Barr says he gave weight to the following quote from Mueller's report: "the evidence does not establish that the President was involved in an underlying crime related to Russian election interference". The law on obstruction of justice requires the obstruction to have a sufficient nexus to a legal proceeding and, if Trump is not a party to a crime, proving obstruction of justice would be extremely difficult. It sounds to me as though the decision not to prosecute is a correct one, but that's very far from saying there are no concerns over Trump's actions.
If there's been any clear media climate in the UK about this investigation over the last 2 years, that hasn't been claims of conspiracy by the liberal media, but the continual claims by Trump and his media supporters that this was a witch hunt. From the very limited information in Barr's letter I would be amazed if the report does in fact vindicate Trump's claims about that. Rather, I suspect it includes very real concerns about the actions of both Trump and his campaign. However, unless and until it is published that's still conjecture.
Regardless of whether Bush personally knew that the WMD claims were bogus, his administration ran torture camps. That is certainly evil enough for me.
Bush knowing something is an overstatement by itself.
As to the WMD, a lot of America’s closest allies at the time knew what was being presented to them was false and told the American government point blank that it was false. It’s why you had Freedom Fries for awhile. It’s why Canada said no right after the presentation.
It can be assumed however, that the Bush administration was looking to boost their approval ratings and the only other time that had happened in his tenure was right after 9/11 and he declared war on a noun.
It can also be said 9/11 occurred because the administration did not take the evidence that was being presented to them seriously. People have drawn their own conclusions onto why it wasn’t being taken seriously because no one asked at them time.
How many lives were saved by the 'torture' (ie: waterboarding) camps? We'll likely never know. I'd need to know that before I dismissed him as 'evil'. It's not possible to quantify lives saved so we'll never know how many people are alive today because of Hiroshima and Nagasaki either, or the Korean War or any other questionable action of government. Sit on your high horse and judge people who have to make real decisions if you like, but don't tell me that they're 'evil'.
Zero. Any other answer is a fallacy.
That is messed up.
Really, how so? Did not having to invade Japan also save '0' lives. Even if we or the USSR didn't invade and slaughter 10s of thousands, how many Japanese would have starved to death because of our blockade? If you tell me the number is '0' I'll say that you're full of shit.
Are you privy to all of the intelligence we got from waterboarding? I sincerely doubt it.
Committing heinous acts for some nebulous remotely possible future good is evil, if the word has any meaning at all. If you look at the worst actors in history they were very often those who fell in love with making the "difficult decisions" and "doing what is necessary". This is just more of the same - especially considering that the general ineffectiveness of torture as way of informing reliable information is pretty well documented.
As for "high horse" I would be careful with that, because for someone who claims we shouldn't judge, you do so fairly often. You were pretty quick to judge the left was just trying to smear Kavanaugh for example...
Or, just maybe, there wasn't any 'collusion'. Sorry, that's far too obvious. Must be a conspiracy. Occam's Razor be damned, there has to be a high-level conspiracy involving hundreds of people all sworn to secrecy and loyal to Trump to the end, because he's so loyal to his people.
What does dropping a bomb on a nation that refused to quit fighting have to do with water boarding individuals who were apprehended not fighting the Americans, but being pointed out as someone who might have information regarding the taliban.
Let me put it in more equal terms: An individual at your daughters school stole something from a store. To get the item back, the police conduct strip searches of everyone in the school even after the item is found to make sure there was no other crime committed or about to be committed. Do you agree with that approach?
Nope, but if the asshole was part of a group threatening to bomb her school I'd be far less likely to give a damn about him. Sorry, I care more about my daughter than I do about an asshole. I sincerely doubt they were torturing random civilians. Any proof of that?
He's not loyal to his people at all. Haven't you noticed him throwing multiple people under the bus that used to work for him including his lawyer for over 9 years? Loyalty is a one way street.
Why there were more than 100 contacts between the Trump presidential campaign and transition team and Russia-linked operatives, and why did so many people lie about these contacts?
Why did the Russian government attempt to cultivate Trump as an asset and have leverage over him? Why else would Trump and his associates welcome the help of a foreign hostile power? What financial incentives does Trump have to favor Russia?
Why did Michael Flynn lie about Russia contacts and why did the president wait so long to fire Flynn? Why aren't Trump’s family members or associates who lied to Congress as proven by documents and testimony of others not indicted?
There were two main Russian efforts, one through primarily through social media and the other via email hacks disseminated through intermediaries such as WikiLeaks, to interfere with our election on Trump's behalf, the claim that there is uncertainty about who interfered with the election and on whose behalf is a lie and part of this cover-up.
Occrams razor there was collusion. This report is a white-wash and happened because of Republican collusion to cover crimes by the corrupt Republican party. They are in too deep with a conman and don't care if they commit more crimes covering it up.
Not all people sent to guantanamo bay was proven to be part of the Talaban or ISIS, in fact many are denied trials to prove their innocence.
Although the Bush administration said most of the men had been captured fighting in Afghanistan, a 2006 report prepared by the Center for Policy and Research at Seton Hall University Law School reviewed DoD data for the remaining 517 men in 2005 and "established that over 80% of the prisoners were captured not by Americans on the battlefield but by Pakistanis and Afghans, often in exchange for bounty payments."The U.S. widely distributed leaflets in the region and offered $5,000 per prisoner. One example is Adel Noori, a Chinese Uyghur and dissident who had been sold to the US by Pakistani bounty hunters.
Edit: Study https://law.shu.edu/programscenters/publicintgovserv/policyresearch/upload/gtmo_death_camp_delta.pdf (it’s a 136 pages)
HuffPost article about study: https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_382085
Where are the people complaining about Kavanaugh now? Has the money dried up funding them perchance?
For the record, if you take the time to look back, you'll find that my opinion was they should have ditched Kananaugh and found somebody else. Irish or not, Kavanaugh should not have been appointed, but it became a no-holds-barred fight to the end just like everything else in our polarized country.
As for the torture thing, where's your evidence that nothing worthwhile came of it? Theories of reliability are just that, theories. Show me the evidence of no results. You can't anymore than I can give you results that it was worthwhile. It seems to me that if it really was so 'worthless', Obama would have made that fact well known. He didn't...
Rachel ( Mad Cow) Maddow, Don (Citrus Fruit) Lemon, Anderson ( Vanderbilt ) Cooper, Chris (My daddy got me this job) Cuomo and the rest of the dross on Left leaning media should be held accountable for toying with people's emotions just for ratings and fame. These parasites have made millions on conspiracies and ridding the Trump train since 2016. Tune these traitors out, they are only going to make everyone chase the next pipe dream narrative given to them by their higher ups on Trump.
To be fair, the Trump sycophants on Fox News and AM radio are just as pathetic. All of them make me nauseous in that we're supposed to believe that they have some kind of 'insight' on which side is in the 'right'.
Edit: Rush Limbaugh, who I used to respect as a rare conservative viewpoint, has sold his soul to Trump. Pathetic...
But I think Republicans need to acknowledge that this theory did not come out of nowhere. It was based on Trump's own actions and statements and a steady stream of data about his administration. Trump did act exactly how a guilty person would act in this situation. He did repeatedly defend Putin and Russia despite having no real reason to do so. He did repeatedly attack law enforcement and attempt to stop the investigation despite having no real reason to do so. And multiple members of his administration did lie about their contacts with Russian officials despite having no real reason to do.
Democrats did not make up those facts. They were never theories; they were things the Trump administration did every day. This is why so many people believed in the collusion theory.
So back to my claim about doing a complete strip search at your daughters school to find a stolen item. Was the process worth getting the stolen item back? Or would there have been less intrusive ways to get what they were looking for. Doing a complete strip search was easy and the most effort way to find the property.
Now should the American government relied on bounty hunters to turn in suspected terrorist and then not give those suspects a trial to determine thier innocence or guilt and then torture said individuals just on the possibility that they may know something regarding the Taliban’s actions?
Was that conduct the best way to get the support of the population they were attempting to save and protect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_torture_for_interrogation
https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/an_fbi_interrogator_on_the_effectiveness_of_torture/
https://journalistsresource.org/studies/government/security-military/does-torture-work-research-says-no/
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22830471-200-torture-doesnt-work-says-science-why-are-we-still-doing-it/
Here's the first 4 articles from a cursory internet search.
Trump did that precisely to fire up his base. He's too obtuse to be a ringleader of a conspiracy as intricate as what is being portrayed. I wish I could feel guilty about voting for him but I still loathe the 'Chosen One' too much to really feel bad about it.
It's absurd, it's un-American, and it's unconstitutional to punish someone for having a different opinion than you. That is a basic, fundamental, inalienable First Amendment right, as all Americans well know.
When we advocate punishment for people who disagree with us, we oppose freedom of speech. There are no exceptions to that rule.
People are allowed to have an opinion, those that have a narrative to deceive because their Monarch didn't get chosen should not.
I'm not afraid to argue my beliefs and I may point out things about others' beliefs that I think are wrong or misguided. But I hope I've never told anybody how to think. That is anathema to me. I try to streer people to my way of thinking by logic and if other's logic sway me, so be it. I'm actually much more conducive to health-care reform than I used to be thanks to you folks here. I hope that I've at least made you think about my viewpoints in exchange...
I keep hearing this, but I have never once seen proof that a news article directed a certain narrative about Trump’s guilt.
Last year we had an Iraqi intern where I work and I asked him what the rank-and-file Iraqis think of the US. They don't hate us. He said that he and most of his friends were only sorry that we got out too soon and left too much chaos behind. I'm not lying. He even had a cousin that was killed in the 'shock and awe' bombing and still doesn't hate us. Don't assume that people that are used to oppression feel the same way as we who live in perpetual security. It's not an apples to apples comparison.
Trump's the biggest liar of them all, he doesn't offer opinions but lies over 10k now probably last I saw was in the 8ks since election. What's his punishment?