I'll even up the ante. When I talked to my daughter's coach, who is also an 'evil' white male about Madleen's family maybe not being able to pay for her basketball fees he immediately said he'd be willing to help her out too. Her family has since said they'd be able to pay but both me and her ex-coach would have been willing to pay the $400 to allow her to pursue basketball. Neither of us gave a shit that she was Muslim nor would we have cared if she'd been black, Hispanic or any other fucking nationality.
I don't understand the idea that the Mueller investigation has somehow failed if it has not resulted in charges for Trump. I don't routinely follow the US media at all, so can't really comment to how the investigation has been generally portrayed there. However, in the politics thread I'm pretty sure that no-one has ever said they expected Trump would be found to have conspired with Russia (though that possibility was certainly not ruled out). I suspect that the historical verdict on the investigation in years to come, once the initial emotions have died down a bit, will be that the results justified the time and effort spent.
Part of the perception problem I think is that the original basis for the investigation has been forgotten. It was originally started by the FBI as a counterintelligence investigation - as confirmed by Comey's testimony to the House Intelligence Committee. The FBI has two different types of investigations it carries out:
- criminal investigations
- intelligence investigations
In the latter type criminal indictments can result, but they are not the main purpose of the investigation - that is to assess the implications for national security.
After Comey's sacking, the same investigation was transferred from the FBI to Mueller. He was given the same ability the FBI had to pursue federal crimes found during the investigation, but that was not the main purpose (the letter of appointment is here). I think someone made the point in one of the 69 posts in this thread waiting for me to look at this morning that the prosecutions made by Mueller were all intended to gain extra information. That's exactly what you would expect as the purpose of the investigation was to gain and evaluate information and not to prosecute crimes - and, unlike with the Starr investigation, Mueller has never sought notoriety or to score political points, but just to do the job he's been asked to do.
I would be interested to read the report (if it's ever published in full) to see what the conclusions are about the implications for national security of Russia supporting the campaign of a Presidential candidate. I would also be interested to see to what extent the report refers to some of the troubling behavior of Trump himself, like consistently undermining the basis for the investigation. Until and unless that report is released though, I'm not going to speculate further about what it contains.
are we ready to call the Russian Collusion conspiracy, the whole cause of the investigation and a myth peddled from all corners of the left wing and even parts of the anti trump right wing establishment, a conspiracy yet?
What are you even talking about?
- A foreign regime committed crimes against Americans in an effort to get Trump elected
- Trump encouraged such crimes
- Trump excused and defended the regime, disrespecting the work of American intelligence officials
- Trump's family and campaign officials met with envoys of that regime to discuss working together during the election
- Trump and his representatives lied about his business dealings with that regime
- Trump's representatives and campaign officials and members of his administration lied under oath on numerous occasions about their dealings with that regime
- Trump did crazy shit like have closed-door meetings with members of that regime, without advisors and without so much as an American translator
- Trump has repeatedly sucked up to hostile tyrants and damaged relationships with loyal allies, going so far as to physically shove the prime minister of a country that Putin dislikes
- Trump has repeatedly attacked the rights and traditions that distinguish America from pathetic despotic regimes like Russia
- Trump's business dealings and sources of income have been shrouded in mystery, notwithstanding we know Russian money was funneled through various real eastate dealings of his and of his campaign manager
Those are all undisputed facts. It's outrageous and shameful thst the leader of my country is do pathetic and gutless. And the actions of several of his advisors and family members have crossed the line into the realm if criminal conduct on several occasions. Thus the investigation to determine the full extent of such conduct.
Again: undisputed facts. So... where exactly is this "conspiracy" you mentioned??
Dang, if only we had a Special Council to look into these things and decide if there was any actual evidence of guilt.
We... do? And... they did find evidence of guilt? A couple dozen indictments, and ~90% of the people who were able to be arrested have pled guilty?
Seems fairly straightforward. Oh wait, by "any evidence of guilt" do you mean "proof that the president committed treason?" That's completely irrelevant. Mueller wasn't appointed to find out that Trump is a Manchurian candidate - this isn't a movie. Mueller was appointed to investigate foreign criminal meddling in our election. That doesn't require a conspiracy. I mean if you want to make up conspiracies there are WAY better ones.
Well, as a Michigan voter whose vote was probably worth 10 times the vote of other states in past elections, I can say that the chosen, groomed one (Clinton) who ran against Trump was the major reason I voted for Trump. I don't think I was an outlier in reality. I don't pay any attention to Facebook or any other media outlet. My one vote was not in anyway influenced by Russia. Unless Russia hijacked votes this whole argument is BS IMHO...
What argument is BS? I'm not talking about influence campaigns and fake news generation (though Russia certainly did that, and your avoiding such social media makes you the exception, not the rule). I'm talking about the commission of the crime of Computer Trespass and Larceny, to obtain the private emails of the DNC to provide as ammunition to the other side. You think if someone hacked the RNC or the Trump campaign there wouldn't have been enough gold to sway a few tens of thousands of voters to stay home? Get real.
And even if you don't think it turned the election - they tried to. You think we should let them keep trying without repercussions?
If people are moronic enough to believe fake news, you can't stop it. The only answer is for people to not be morons. Good luck with that...
are we ready to call the Russian Collusion conspiracy, the whole cause of the investigation and a myth peddled from all corners of the left wing and even parts of the anti trump right wing establishment, a conspiracy yet?
What are you even talking about?
- A foreign regime committed crimes against Americans in an effort to get Trump elected
- Trump encouraged such crimes
- Trump excused and defended the regime, disrespecting the work of American intelligence officials
- Trump's family and campaign officials met with envoys of that regime to discuss working together during the election
- Trump and his representatives lied about his business dealings with that regime
- Trump's representatives and campaign officials and members of his administration lied under oath on numerous occasions about their dealings with that regime
- Trump did crazy shit like have closed-door meetings with members of that regime, without advisors and without so much as an American translator
- Trump has repeatedly sucked up to hostile tyrants and damaged relationships with loyal allies, going so far as to physically shove the prime minister of a country that Putin dislikes
- Trump has repeatedly attacked the rights and traditions that distinguish America from pathetic despotic regimes like Russia
- Trump's business dealings and sources of income have been shrouded in mystery, notwithstanding we know Russian money was funneled through various real eastate dealings of his and of his campaign manager
Those are all undisputed facts. It's outrageous and shameful thst the leader of my country is do pathetic and gutless. And the actions of several of his advisors and family members have crossed the line into the realm if criminal conduct on several occasions. Thus the investigation to determine the full extent of such conduct.
Again: undisputed facts. So... where exactly is this "conspiracy" you mentioned??
Dang, if only we had a Special Council to look into these things and decide if there was any actual evidence of guilt.
We... do? And... they did find evidence of guilt? A couple dozen indictments, and ~90% of the people who were able to be arrested have pled guilty?
Seems fairly straightforward. Oh wait, by "any evidence of guilt" do you mean "proof that the president committed treason?" That's completely irrelevant. Mueller wasn't appointed to find out that Trump is a Manchurian candidate - this isn't a movie. Mueller was appointed to investigate foreign criminal meddling in our election. That doesn't require a conspiracy. I mean if you want to make up conspiracies there are WAY better ones.
Well, as a Michigan voter whose vote was probably worth 10 times the vote of other states in past elections, I can say that the chosen, groomed one (Clinton) who ran against Trump was the major reason I voted for Trump. I don't think I was an outlier in reality. I don't pay any attention to Facebook or any other media outlet. My one vote was not in anyway influenced by Russia. Unless Russia hijacked votes this whole argument is BS IMHO...
What argument is BS? I'm not talking about influence campaigns and fake news generation (though Russia certainly did that, and your avoiding such social media makes you the exception, not the rule). I'm talking about the commission of the crime of Computer Trespass and Larceny, to obtain the private emails of the DNC to provide as ammunition to the other side. You think if someone hacked the RNC or the Trump campaign there wouldn't have been enough gold to sway a few tens of thousands of voters to stay home? Get real.
And even if you don't think it turned the election - they tried to. You think we should let them keep trying without repercussions?
Why not let them try? You can't really stop it. The answer is to not let morons vote. I have no problem with that
Edit: Right now a dipshit who only gets their news from Fox News or some other moron who doesn't even know we have three branches of government has the same say in voting for a president as I do. I don't personally think that's 'fair'.
There is a lot of truth to the fact that ordinary americans were tired of being told they were racist, sexist, transphobic, islamaphobic, arachnaphobic bigots who existed solely to hate other human beings. So when Clinton said people like me were deplorable I wore it as a badge of pride. If fundamentally hateful people hate me, well, it doesn't bother me all that much.
You are wore a badge of pride that you proudly stood with the "racist, sexist, transphobic, islamaphobic, arachnaphobic bigots". That's something you are proud of? You sided with the fundamentally hateful people, the ones that chanted lock her up and all sorts of nasty things and had all the assaults at the fact free rallies. People support a guy who never tells the truth and are proud being lied to and made to look foolish because it's so obvious he's lying.
The trouble is that those Hillary quotes plus the 'bitter clingers' quotes from Obama, particularly the 'Bible' clinging quote, made paladin-like enemies of many conservatives who otherwise might have thought twice about voting for Trump. Moronic pandering to the far-left that bit them in the ass. They may never get the chance to sway those voters ever again. Congratulations...
No idea what you are talking about. So it wasn't pandering to the far left. You must have heard it somewhere on right wing propaganda because it didn't play in the left. It sounds like the right made a big deal out of nothing. They love getting people to hate and be disgusted. It's all they have to offer.
If you are going to give away your rights to people that only want to screw you over because some quote then that's just sad. Republicans do not give a damn about you. Look at their policies, not their fearmongering culture warz bullshit. They want tax cuts for the rich and corporations and to cut services that you and I use. But people are like "yeah take away my healthcare because mean lady said something!" what a joke that argument is. As if Saint Trump has never ever insulted anyone or said anything fucking stupid with every sentence he says. "You drove me to the alt-right" is just weakness.
are we ready to call the Russian Collusion conspiracy, the whole cause of the investigation and a myth peddled from all corners of the left wing and even parts of the anti trump right wing establishment, a conspiracy yet?
What are you even talking about?
- A foreign regime committed crimes against Americans in an effort to get Trump elected
- Trump encouraged such crimes
- Trump excused and defended the regime, disrespecting the work of American intelligence officials
- Trump's family and campaign officials met with envoys of that regime to discuss working together during the election
- Trump and his representatives lied about his business dealings with that regime
- Trump's representatives and campaign officials and members of his administration lied under oath on numerous occasions about their dealings with that regime
- Trump did crazy shit like have closed-door meetings with members of that regime, without advisors and without so much as an American translator
- Trump has repeatedly sucked up to hostile tyrants and damaged relationships with loyal allies, going so far as to physically shove the prime minister of a country that Putin dislikes
- Trump has repeatedly attacked the rights and traditions that distinguish America from pathetic despotic regimes like Russia
- Trump's business dealings and sources of income have been shrouded in mystery, notwithstanding we know Russian money was funneled through various real eastate dealings of his and of his campaign manager
Those are all undisputed facts. It's outrageous and shameful thst the leader of my country is do pathetic and gutless. And the actions of several of his advisors and family members have crossed the line into the realm if criminal conduct on several occasions. Thus the investigation to determine the full extent of such conduct.
Again: undisputed facts. So... where exactly is this "conspiracy" you mentioned??
Dang, if only we had a Special Council to look into these things and decide if there was any actual evidence of guilt.
We... do? And... they did find evidence of guilt? A couple dozen indictments, and ~90% of the people who were able to be arrested have pled guilty?
Seems fairly straightforward. Oh wait, by "any evidence of guilt" do you mean "proof that the president committed treason?" That's completely irrelevant. Mueller wasn't appointed to find out that Trump is a Manchurian candidate - this isn't a movie. Mueller was appointed to investigate foreign criminal meddling in our election. That doesn't require a conspiracy. I mean if you want to make up conspiracies there are WAY better ones.
Well, as a Michigan voter whose vote was probably worth 10 times the vote of other states in past elections, I can say that the chosen, groomed one (Clinton) who ran against Trump was the major reason I voted for Trump. I don't think I was an outlier in reality. I don't pay any attention to Facebook or any other media outlet. My one vote was not in anyway influenced by Russia. Unless Russia hijacked votes this whole argument is BS IMHO...
What argument is BS? I'm not talking about influence campaigns and fake news generation (though Russia certainly did that, and your avoiding such social media makes you the exception, not the rule). I'm talking about the commission of the crime of Computer Trespass and Larceny, to obtain the private emails of the DNC to provide as ammunition to the other side. You think if someone hacked the RNC or the Trump campaign there wouldn't have been enough gold to sway a few tens of thousands of voters to stay home? Get real.
And even if you don't think it turned the election - they tried to. You think we should let them keep trying without repercussions?
Russia did hack the RNC, they just didn't release anything. Because they wanted Trump to win to ruin America and cause chaos like he has been doing for the past two years.
There is a lot of truth to the fact that ordinary americans were tired of being told they were racist, sexist, transphobic, islamaphobic, arachnaphobic bigots who existed solely to hate other human beings. So when Clinton said people like me were deplorable I wore it as a badge of pride. If fundamentally hateful people hate me, well, it doesn't bother me all that much.
You are wore a badge of pride that you proudly stood with the "racist, sexist, transphobic, islamaphobic, arachnaphobic bigots". That's something you are proud of? You sided with the fundamentally hateful people, the ones that chanted lock her up and all sorts of nasty things and had all the assaults at the fact free rallies. People support a guy who never tells the truth and are proud being lied to and made to look foolish because it's so obvious he's lying.
The trouble is that those Hillary quotes plus the 'bitter clingers' quotes from Obama, particularly the 'Bible' clinging quote, made paladin-like enemies of many conservatives who otherwise might have thought twice about voting for Trump. Moronic pandering to the far-left that bit them in the ass. They may never get the chance to sway those voters ever again. Congratulations...
No idea what you are talking about. So it wasn't pandering to the far left but right wing propaganda you must have heard because it didn't play in the left but instead it sounds like the right made a big deal out of nothing. They love getting people to hate and be disgusted.
If you are going to give away your rights to people that only want to screw you over because some quote then that's just sad. Republicans do not give a damn about you. They want tax cuts and to cut services. But people are like "yeah take away my healthcare because mean lady said something!" what a joke that argument is. As if Saint Trump has never ever insulted anyone or said anything fucking stupid with every sentence he says. "You drove me to the alt-right" is just weakness.
Democrats don't give a damn about me either. They don't listen to me any more than the Republicans. The difference is the Republicans are closer to my ideology. It hasn't stopped me for voting for a Democrat, but they have to deviate from their platform or be running against a Republican asshole to garner my vote.
are we ready to call the Russian Collusion conspiracy, the whole cause of the investigation and a myth peddled from all corners of the left wing and even parts of the anti trump right wing establishment, a conspiracy yet?
What are you even talking about?
- A foreign regime committed crimes against Americans in an effort to get Trump elected
- Trump encouraged such crimes
- Trump excused and defended the regime, disrespecting the work of American intelligence officials
- Trump's family and campaign officials met with envoys of that regime to discuss working together during the election
- Trump and his representatives lied about his business dealings with that regime
- Trump's representatives and campaign officials and members of his administration lied under oath on numerous occasions about their dealings with that regime
- Trump did crazy shit like have closed-door meetings with members of that regime, without advisors and without so much as an American translator
- Trump has repeatedly sucked up to hostile tyrants and damaged relationships with loyal allies, going so far as to physically shove the prime minister of a country that Putin dislikes
- Trump has repeatedly attacked the rights and traditions that distinguish America from pathetic despotic regimes like Russia
- Trump's business dealings and sources of income have been shrouded in mystery, notwithstanding we know Russian money was funneled through various real eastate dealings of his and of his campaign manager
Those are all undisputed facts. It's outrageous and shameful thst the leader of my country is do pathetic and gutless. And the actions of several of his advisors and family members have crossed the line into the realm if criminal conduct on several occasions. Thus the investigation to determine the full extent of such conduct.
Again: undisputed facts. So... where exactly is this "conspiracy" you mentioned??
Dang, if only we had a Special Council to look into these things and decide if there was any actual evidence of guilt.
We... do? And... they did find evidence of guilt? A couple dozen indictments, and ~90% of the people who were able to be arrested have pled guilty?
Seems fairly straightforward. Oh wait, by "any evidence of guilt" do you mean "proof that the president committed treason?" That's completely irrelevant. Mueller wasn't appointed to find out that Trump is a Manchurian candidate - this isn't a movie. Mueller was appointed to investigate foreign criminal meddling in our election. That doesn't require a conspiracy. I mean if you want to make up conspiracies there are WAY better ones.
Well, as a Michigan voter whose vote was probably worth 10 times the vote of other states in past elections, I can say that the chosen, groomed one (Clinton) who ran against Trump was the major reason I voted for Trump. I don't think I was an outlier in reality. I don't pay any attention to Facebook or any other media outlet. My one vote was not in anyway influenced by Russia. Unless Russia hijacked votes this whole argument is BS IMHO...
What argument is BS? I'm not talking about influence campaigns and fake news generation (though Russia certainly did that, and your avoiding such social media makes you the exception, not the rule). I'm talking about the commission of the crime of Computer Trespass and Larceny, to obtain the private emails of the DNC to provide as ammunition to the other side. You think if someone hacked the RNC or the Trump campaign there wouldn't have been enough gold to sway a few tens of thousands of voters to stay home? Get real.
And even if you don't think it turned the election - they tried to. You think we should let them keep trying without repercussions?
Why not let them try? You can't really stop it. The answer is to not let morons vote. I have no problem with that
Edit: Right now a dipshit who only gets their news from Fox News or some other moron who doesn't even know we have three branches of government has the same say in voting for a president as I do. I don't personally think that's 'fair'.
Perhaps voting for a name, a survey is conducted on what differentiates each candidate from one another. The survey questions can be vetted by all candidates involved and the weight of a person's answers determines who their vote is cast for. Before submitting, you can choose not to vote for that candidate, however, you would be unable to retake the survey to get another result. Your vote is lost.
This of course would add a significant waiting time to actually cast a vote, but it would take all the negativity out of the voting process and the public would have to be sold competing ideas
are we ready to call the Russian Collusion conspiracy, the whole cause of the investigation and a myth peddled from all corners of the left wing and even parts of the anti trump right wing establishment, a conspiracy yet?
What are you even talking about?
- A foreign regime committed crimes against Americans in an effort to get Trump elected
- Trump encouraged such crimes
- Trump excused and defended the regime, disrespecting the work of American intelligence officials
- Trump's family and campaign officials met with envoys of that regime to discuss working together during the election
- Trump and his representatives lied about his business dealings with that regime
- Trump's representatives and campaign officials and members of his administration lied under oath on numerous occasions about their dealings with that regime
- Trump did crazy shit like have closed-door meetings with members of that regime, without advisors and without so much as an American translator
- Trump has repeatedly sucked up to hostile tyrants and damaged relationships with loyal allies, going so far as to physically shove the prime minister of a country that Putin dislikes
- Trump has repeatedly attacked the rights and traditions that distinguish America from pathetic despotic regimes like Russia
- Trump's business dealings and sources of income have been shrouded in mystery, notwithstanding we know Russian money was funneled through various real eastate dealings of his and of his campaign manager
Those are all undisputed facts. It's outrageous and shameful thst the leader of my country is do pathetic and gutless. And the actions of several of his advisors and family members have crossed the line into the realm if criminal conduct on several occasions. Thus the investigation to determine the full extent of such conduct.
Again: undisputed facts. So... where exactly is this "conspiracy" you mentioned??
Dang, if only we had a Special Council to look into these things and decide if there was any actual evidence of guilt.
We... do? And... they did find evidence of guilt? A couple dozen indictments, and ~90% of the people who were able to be arrested have pled guilty?
Seems fairly straightforward. Oh wait, by "any evidence of guilt" do you mean "proof that the president committed treason?" That's completely irrelevant. Mueller wasn't appointed to find out that Trump is a Manchurian candidate - this isn't a movie. Mueller was appointed to investigate foreign criminal meddling in our election. That doesn't require a conspiracy. I mean if you want to make up conspiracies there are WAY better ones.
Well, as a Michigan voter whose vote was probably worth 10 times the vote of other states in past elections, I can say that the chosen, groomed one (Clinton) who ran against Trump was the major reason I voted for Trump. I don't think I was an outlier in reality. I don't pay any attention to Facebook or any other media outlet. My one vote was not in anyway influenced by Russia. Unless Russia hijacked votes this whole argument is BS IMHO...
What argument is BS? I'm not talking about influence campaigns and fake news generation (though Russia certainly did that, and your avoiding such social media makes you the exception, not the rule). I'm talking about the commission of the crime of Computer Trespass and Larceny, to obtain the private emails of the DNC to provide as ammunition to the other side. You think if someone hacked the RNC or the Trump campaign there wouldn't have been enough gold to sway a few tens of thousands of voters to stay home? Get real.
And even if you don't think it turned the election - they tried to. You think we should let them keep trying without repercussions?
Why not let them try? You can't really stop it. The answer is to not let morons vote. I have no problem with that
Edit: Right now a dipshit who only gets their news from Fox News or some other moron who doesn't even know we have three branches of government has the same say in voting for a president as I do. I don't personally think that's 'fair'.
Perhaps voting for a name, a survey is conducted on what differentiates each candidate from one another. The survey questions can be vetted by all candidates involved and the weight of a person's answers determines who their vote is cast for. Before submitting, you can choose not to vote for that candidate, however, you would be unable to retake the survey to get another result. Your vote is lost.
This of course would add a significant waiting time to actually cast a vote, but it would take all the negativity out of the voting process and the public would have to be sold competing ideas
Weird idea but maybe better than a poll test. I'd be for it but I doubt it'd ever see the light of day..
are we ready to call the Russian Collusion conspiracy, the whole cause of the investigation and a myth peddled from all corners of the left wing and even parts of the anti trump right wing establishment, a conspiracy yet?
What are you even talking about?
- A foreign regime committed crimes against Americans in an effort to get Trump elected
- Trump encouraged such crimes
- Trump excused and defended the regime, disrespecting the work of American intelligence officials
- Trump's family and campaign officials met with envoys of that regime to discuss working together during the election
- Trump and his representatives lied about his business dealings with that regime
- Trump's representatives and campaign officials and members of his administration lied under oath on numerous occasions about their dealings with that regime
- Trump did crazy shit like have closed-door meetings with members of that regime, without advisors and without so much as an American translator
- Trump has repeatedly sucked up to hostile tyrants and damaged relationships with loyal allies, going so far as to physically shove the prime minister of a country that Putin dislikes
- Trump has repeatedly attacked the rights and traditions that distinguish America from pathetic despotic regimes like Russia
- Trump's business dealings and sources of income have been shrouded in mystery, notwithstanding we know Russian money was funneled through various real eastate dealings of his and of his campaign manager
Those are all undisputed facts. It's outrageous and shameful thst the leader of my country is do pathetic and gutless. And the actions of several of his advisors and family members have crossed the line into the realm if criminal conduct on several occasions. Thus the investigation to determine the full extent of such conduct.
Again: undisputed facts. So... where exactly is this "conspiracy" you mentioned??
Dang, if only we had a Special Council to look into these things and decide if there was any actual evidence of guilt.
We... do? And... they did find evidence of guilt? A couple dozen indictments, and ~90% of the people who were able to be arrested have pled guilty?
Seems fairly straightforward. Oh wait, by "any evidence of guilt" do you mean "proof that the president committed treason?" That's completely irrelevant. Mueller wasn't appointed to find out that Trump is a Manchurian candidate - this isn't a movie. Mueller was appointed to investigate foreign criminal meddling in our election. That doesn't require a conspiracy. I mean if you want to make up conspiracies there are WAY better ones.
Well, as a Michigan voter whose vote was probably worth 10 times the vote of other states in past elections, I can say that the chosen, groomed one (Clinton) who ran against Trump was the major reason I voted for Trump. I don't think I was an outlier in reality. I don't pay any attention to Facebook or any other media outlet. My one vote was not in anyway influenced by Russia. Unless Russia hijacked votes this whole argument is BS IMHO...
What argument is BS? I'm not talking about influence campaigns and fake news generation (though Russia certainly did that, and your avoiding such social media makes you the exception, not the rule). I'm talking about the commission of the crime of Computer Trespass and Larceny, to obtain the private emails of the DNC to provide as ammunition to the other side. You think if someone hacked the RNC or the Trump campaign there wouldn't have been enough gold to sway a few tens of thousands of voters to stay home? Get real.
And even if you don't think it turned the election - they tried to. You think we should let them keep trying without repercussions?
Russia did hack the RNC, they just didn't release anything. Because they wanted Trump to win to ruin America and cause chaos like he has been doing for the past two years.
Wouldn't have worked against Bernie though, might have worked against Jeb if he'd have won however. Assuming the Russians liked Bernie over Bush in the chaos department. The real problem is 'why' it worked though. The average voter in the US is a moron. That's the real problem...
Regardless of the Mueller report, even if it is one page that says 'no collusion', Trump is an unindicted co-conspirator (individual one) in the campaign finance felony that has put his lawyer Michael Cohen in prison for years. He's violating the emoluments clause in the Constitution everyday. He still fired James Comey and Jeff Sessions because of the Russia investigation and admitted as much. His sons and campaign manager still lied about then admitted to meeting Russian agents in a Trump hotel. He ran a scam University. He ran a scam charity.
He's intent on taking away access to affordable Care act healthcare, he's promoting junk plans. His commissioner to the FCC took away Net Neutrality. His main accomplishment is acting like a fool and giving himself a massive massive tax cut and raising middle class taxes to pay for it. His budget priorities are horrendous and cut things for us to pay for the rich guy tax cuts. He wants to take money from vets and the military to pay for his flaccid worthless wall.
And on and on...
Mueller’s investigation has led to 215 criminal charges, 38 indictments or pleas, and five prison sentences so far. There are other investigations ongoing - Congressional, SDNY, and federal and state investigations I thought I saw a number 17 or 77 or something, can't find it atm. Trump was right when he said if we voted for Hillary we'd get a criminal President always under investigation.
are we ready to call the Russian Collusion conspiracy, the whole cause of the investigation and a myth peddled from all corners of the left wing and even parts of the anti trump right wing establishment, a conspiracy yet?
What are you even talking about?
- A foreign regime committed crimes against Americans in an effort to get Trump elected
- Trump encouraged such crimes
- Trump excused and defended the regime, disrespecting the work of American intelligence officials
- Trump's family and campaign officials met with envoys of that regime to discuss working together during the election
- Trump and his representatives lied about his business dealings with that regime
- Trump's representatives and campaign officials and members of his administration lied under oath on numerous occasions about their dealings with that regime
- Trump did crazy shit like have closed-door meetings with members of that regime, without advisors and without so much as an American translator
- Trump has repeatedly sucked up to hostile tyrants and damaged relationships with loyal allies, going so far as to physically shove the prime minister of a country that Putin dislikes
- Trump has repeatedly attacked the rights and traditions that distinguish America from pathetic despotic regimes like Russia
- Trump's business dealings and sources of income have been shrouded in mystery, notwithstanding we know Russian money was funneled through various real eastate dealings of his and of his campaign manager
Those are all undisputed facts. It's outrageous and shameful thst the leader of my country is do pathetic and gutless. And the actions of several of his advisors and family members have crossed the line into the realm if criminal conduct on several occasions. Thus the investigation to determine the full extent of such conduct.
Again: undisputed facts. So... where exactly is this "conspiracy" you mentioned??
Dang, if only we had a Special Council to look into these things and decide if there was any actual evidence of guilt.
We... do? And... they did find evidence of guilt? A couple dozen indictments, and ~90% of the people who were able to be arrested have pled guilty?
Seems fairly straightforward. Oh wait, by "any evidence of guilt" do you mean "proof that the president committed treason?" That's completely irrelevant. Mueller wasn't appointed to find out that Trump is a Manchurian candidate - this isn't a movie. Mueller was appointed to investigate foreign criminal meddling in our election. That doesn't require a conspiracy. I mean if you want to make up conspiracies there are WAY better ones.
Well, as a Michigan voter whose vote was probably worth 10 times the vote of other states in past elections, I can say that the chosen, groomed one (Clinton) who ran against Trump was the major reason I voted for Trump. I don't think I was an outlier in reality. I don't pay any attention to Facebook or any other media outlet. My one vote was not in anyway influenced by Russia. Unless Russia hijacked votes this whole argument is BS IMHO...
What argument is BS? I'm not talking about influence campaigns and fake news generation (though Russia certainly did that, and your avoiding such social media makes you the exception, not the rule). I'm talking about the commission of the crime of Computer Trespass and Larceny, to obtain the private emails of the DNC to provide as ammunition to the other side. You think if someone hacked the RNC or the Trump campaign there wouldn't have been enough gold to sway a few tens of thousands of voters to stay home? Get real.
And even if you don't think it turned the election - they tried to. You think we should let them keep trying without repercussions?
Why not let them try? You can't really stop it. The answer is to not let morons vote. I have no problem with that
So, if you hack into my email or bank account, you have committed a felony and could lose years of your life in prison. But if an FSB agent does, he gets a pass? Is that where you've arrived? Literally defending Russian crimes on American soil?
I mean hey - it's only the KGB, right? Those are fun, cool guys. We should let them do whatever we want.
Those things you mentioned are actual crimes. That's completely different than targeting people with fake news.
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Sadly, I don’t think anyone involved in this story actually cares that this was made public. Let’s just enrich the rich further...
It's been evident from day one that nearly every Trump cabinet appointment was either putting someone with DIRECT ties to the industry in charge of it, or putting someone who literally wants to destroy the system under it's purview in charge. I don't know why anyone would think people would start caring now.
Let's take at face value the idea that most people who voted for Trump wanted to send a shock to a corrupt system. If that's the case, it was like trying to lose weight by hiring a world-class French pastry chef to live in your house and bake for you on a daily basis. If this is "draining the swamp", then I'm a f**king astronaut typing this from the moon. In this case, who apparently gives a shit about water and air pollution. No one in my experience really likes to breath normally and drink clean water anyway. Those things are more luxuries really. But hey, look at this. Maybe it isn't AT ALL surprising why this isn't on most people's radar:
Sadly, I don’t think anyone involved in this story actually cares that this was made public. Let’s just enrich the rich further...
It's been evident from day one that nearly every Trump cabinet appointment was either putting someone with DIRECT ties to the industry in charge of it, or putting someone who literally wants to destroy the system under it's purview in charge. I don't know why anyone would think people would start caring now.
Let's take at face value the idea that most people who voted for Trump wanted to send a shock to a corrupt system. If that's the case, it was like trying to lose weight by hiring a world-class French pastry chef to live in your house and bake for you on a daily basis. If this is "draining the swamp", then I'm a f**king astronaut typing this from the moon. In this case, who apparently gives a shit about water and air pollution. No one in my experience really likes to breath normally and drink clean water anyway. Those things are more luxuries really. But hey, look at this. Maybe it isn't AT ALL surprising why this isn't on most people's radar:
It's not some conspiracy. Trump put those people there because he wants to make things easier on businesses. Part of that was dismantling years and years of business unfriendly regulations. Agree with it or not, he's not trying to pull the wool over our eyes. He's doing exactly what he said he would do...
Sadly, I don’t think anyone involved in this story actually cares that this was made public. Let’s just enrich the rich further...
It's been evident from day one that nearly every Trump cabinet appointment was either putting someone with DIRECT ties to the industry in charge of it, or putting someone who literally wants to destroy the system under it's purview in charge. I don't know why anyone would think people would start caring now.
Let's take at face value the idea that most people who voted for Trump wanted to send a shock to a corrupt system. If that's the case, it was like trying to lose weight by hiring a world-class French pastry chef to live in your house and bake for you on a daily basis. If this is "draining the swamp", then I'm a f**king astronaut typing this from the moon. In this case, who apparently gives a shit about water and air pollution. No one in my experience really likes to breath normally and drink clean water anyway. Those things are more luxuries really. But hey, look at this. Maybe it isn't AT ALL surprising why this isn't on most people's radar:
It's not some conspiracy. Trump put those people there because he wants to make things easier on businesses. Part of that was dismantling years and years of business unfriendly regulations. Agree with it or not, he's not trying to pull the wool over our eyes. He's doing exactly what he said he would do...
You could paint requiring buildings have fire extinguishers as an "unfriendly business regulation". After all, why FORCE them to spend the money on the (relatively small) chance a fire might break out?? Why make them have stocked First Aid kits?? Let's just let them do anything they want. We'll try it for a decade or two, then see where we are. Well, some people will be able to check. Alot them will be dead when they wouldn't have been before.
Sadly, I don’t think anyone involved in this story actually cares that this was made public. Let’s just enrich the rich further...
It's been evident from day one that nearly every Trump cabinet appointment was either putting someone with DIRECT ties to the industry in charge of it, or putting someone who literally wants to destroy the system under it's purview in charge. I don't know why anyone would think people would start caring now.
Let's take at face value the idea that most people who voted for Trump wanted to send a shock to a corrupt system. If that's the case, it was like trying to lose weight by hiring a world-class French pastry chef to live in your house and bake for you on a daily basis. If this is "draining the swamp", then I'm a f**king astronaut typing this from the moon. In this case, who apparently gives a shit about water and air pollution. No one in my experience really likes to breath normally and drink clean water anyway. Those things are more luxuries really. But hey, look at this. Maybe it isn't AT ALL surprising why this isn't on most people's radar:
It's not some conspiracy. Trump put those people there because he wants to make things easier on businesses. Part of that was dismantling years and years of business unfriendly regulations. Agree with it or not, he's not trying to pull the wool over our eyes. He's doing exactly what he said he would do...
Those business 'unfriendly regulations' are usually consumer protections. Yes, it might be inconvenient for a company to not dump toxic waste in the water supply but it's for the best if they don't. His anti-protection agenda has also made it easier for robocalls, predatory lenders, and the like. But at least someone is looking out for the rich and powerful at regular people's expense and health and welfare.
I'm not defending Trump by any means, merely pointing out that it isn't some conspiracy. He's not trying to hide it. He promised to do this. There should be no surprise unless you didn't think he'd go this far...
Sadly, I don’t think anyone involved in this story actually cares that this was made public. Let’s just enrich the rich further...
It's been evident from day one that nearly every Trump cabinet appointment was either putting someone with DIRECT ties to the industry in charge of it, or putting someone who literally wants to destroy the system under it's purview in charge. I don't know why anyone would think people would start caring now.
Let's take at face value the idea that most people who voted for Trump wanted to send a shock to a corrupt system. If that's the case, it was like trying to lose weight by hiring a world-class French pastry chef to live in your house and bake for you on a daily basis. If this is "draining the swamp", then I'm a f**king astronaut typing this from the moon. In this case, who apparently gives a shit about water and air pollution. No one in my experience really likes to breath normally and drink clean water anyway. Those things are more luxuries really. But hey, look at this. Maybe it isn't AT ALL surprising why this isn't on most people's radar:
It's not some conspiracy. Trump put those people there because he wants to make things easier on businesses. Part of that was dismantling years and years of business unfriendly regulations. Agree with it or not, he's not trying to pull the wool over our eyes. He's doing exactly what he said he would do...
You could paint requiring buildings have fire extinguishers as an "unfriendly business regulation". After all, why FORCE them to spend the money on the (relatively small) chance a fire might break out?? Why make them have stocked First Aid kits?? Let's just let them do anything they want. We'll try it for a decade or two, then see where we are. Well, some people will be able to check. Alot them will be dead when they wouldn't have been before.
We don't even need to "try it". We already DID it. Check out working conditions before government regulation was a thing in the US. People died, a LOT. Oftentimes not even for real currency.
are we ready to call the Russian Collusion conspiracy, the whole cause of the investigation and a myth peddled from all corners of the left wing and even parts of the anti trump right wing establishment, a conspiracy yet?
What are you even talking about?
- A foreign regime committed crimes against Americans in an effort to get Trump elected
- Trump encouraged such crimes
- Trump excused and defended the regime, disrespecting the work of American intelligence officials
- Trump's family and campaign officials met with envoys of that regime to discuss working together during the election
- Trump and his representatives lied about his business dealings with that regime
- Trump's representatives and campaign officials and members of his administration lied under oath on numerous occasions about their dealings with that regime
- Trump did crazy shit like have closed-door meetings with members of that regime, without advisors and without so much as an American translator
- Trump has repeatedly sucked up to hostile tyrants and damaged relationships with loyal allies, going so far as to physically shove the prime minister of a country that Putin dislikes
- Trump has repeatedly attacked the rights and traditions that distinguish America from pathetic despotic regimes like Russia
- Trump's business dealings and sources of income have been shrouded in mystery, notwithstanding we know Russian money was funneled through various real eastate dealings of his and of his campaign manager
Those are all undisputed facts. It's outrageous and shameful thst the leader of my country is do pathetic and gutless. And the actions of several of his advisors and family members have crossed the line into the realm if criminal conduct on several occasions. Thus the investigation to determine the full extent of such conduct.
Again: undisputed facts. So... where exactly is this "conspiracy" you mentioned??
Dang, if only we had a Special Council to look into these things and decide if there was any actual evidence of guilt.
We... do? And... they did find evidence of guilt? A couple dozen indictments, and ~90% of the people who were able to be arrested have pled guilty?
Seems fairly straightforward. Oh wait, by "any evidence of guilt" do you mean "proof that the president committed treason?" That's completely irrelevant. Mueller wasn't appointed to find out that Trump is a Manchurian candidate - this isn't a movie. Mueller was appointed to investigate foreign criminal meddling in our election. That doesn't require a conspiracy. I mean if you want to make up conspiracies there are WAY better ones.
Well, as a Michigan voter whose vote was probably worth 10 times the vote of other states in past elections, I can say that the chosen, groomed one (Clinton) who ran against Trump was the major reason I voted for Trump. I don't think I was an outlier in reality. I don't pay any attention to Facebook or any other media outlet. My one vote was not in anyway influenced by Russia. Unless Russia hijacked votes this whole argument is BS IMHO...
What argument is BS? I'm not talking about influence campaigns and fake news generation (though Russia certainly did that, and your avoiding such social media makes you the exception, not the rule). I'm talking about the commission of the crime of Computer Trespass and Larceny, to obtain the private emails of the DNC to provide as ammunition to the other side. You think if someone hacked the RNC or the Trump campaign there wouldn't have been enough gold to sway a few tens of thousands of voters to stay home? Get real.
And even if you don't think it turned the election - they tried to. You think we should let them keep trying without repercussions?
Why not let them try? You can't really stop it. The answer is to not let morons vote. I have no problem with that
So, if you hack into my email or bank account, you have committed a felony and could lose years of your life in prison. But if an FSB agent does, he gets a pass? Is that where you've arrived? Literally defending Russian crimes on American soil?
I mean hey - it's only the KGB, right? Those are fun, cool guys. We should let them do whatever we want.
Those things you mentioned are actual crimes. That's completely different than targeting people with fake news.
Yeah - I was talking about actual crimes the whole time. I don't know why you responded abd started talking about fake news.
1) Russians commited actual crimes relating to the election...
2) A criminal investigation was begun...
3) Some of the targets of the investigation turned out to have awkward connections to the president-elect's campaign; potential conflicts of interest were raised...
4) The special counsel was appointed for the express purpose of being able to investigate crimes by Russians, in a way that protects the investigation from any conflicts of interest...
5) WarChiefZeke sees a conspiracy.
6) My question is: where is the conspiracy?
Still haven't heard an answer...
The Russian interference is basically bombarding people with fake news on Facebook and whatnot. No votes were stolen, people were influenced to vote the way they wanted them to. As far as I can tell that's it. Give me an example of one stolen vote...
Sadly, I don’t think anyone involved in this story actually cares that this was made public. Let’s just enrich the rich further...
It's been evident from day one that nearly every Trump cabinet appointment was either putting someone with DIRECT ties to the industry in charge of it, or putting someone who literally wants to destroy the system under it's purview in charge. I don't know why anyone would think people would start caring now.
Let's take at face value the idea that most people who voted for Trump wanted to send a shock to a corrupt system. If that's the case, it was like trying to lose weight by hiring a world-class French pastry chef to live in your house and bake for you on a daily basis. If this is "draining the swamp", then I'm a f**king astronaut typing this from the moon. In this case, who apparently gives a shit about water and air pollution. No one in my experience really likes to breath normally and drink clean water anyway. Those things are more luxuries really. But hey, look at this. Maybe it isn't AT ALL surprising why this isn't on most people's radar:
It's not some conspiracy. Trump put those people there because he wants to make things easier on businesses. Part of that was dismantling years and years of business unfriendly regulations. Agree with it or not, he's not trying to pull the wool over our eyes. He's doing exactly what he said he would do...
I don't think people actually realized to the degree he would actually go. For example opening up federal land and national parks to be exploited for resources is very much a short term gain for long term consequences but as long as it lines their pockets now, who cares about future generations enjoying national parks or endangered species.
are we ready to call the Russian Collusion conspiracy, the whole cause of the investigation and a myth peddled from all corners of the left wing and even parts of the anti trump right wing establishment, a conspiracy yet?
What are you even talking about?
- A foreign regime committed crimes against Americans in an effort to get Trump elected
- Trump encouraged such crimes
- Trump excused and defended the regime, disrespecting the work of American intelligence officials
- Trump's family and campaign officials met with envoys of that regime to discuss working together during the election
- Trump and his representatives lied about his business dealings with that regime
- Trump's representatives and campaign officials and members of his administration lied under oath on numerous occasions about their dealings with that regime
- Trump did crazy shit like have closed-door meetings with members of that regime, without advisors and without so much as an American translator
- Trump has repeatedly sucked up to hostile tyrants and damaged relationships with loyal allies, going so far as to physically shove the prime minister of a country that Putin dislikes
- Trump has repeatedly attacked the rights and traditions that distinguish America from pathetic despotic regimes like Russia
- Trump's business dealings and sources of income have been shrouded in mystery, notwithstanding we know Russian money was funneled through various real eastate dealings of his and of his campaign manager
Those are all undisputed facts. It's outrageous and shameful thst the leader of my country is do pathetic and gutless. And the actions of several of his advisors and family members have crossed the line into the realm if criminal conduct on several occasions. Thus the investigation to determine the full extent of such conduct.
Again: undisputed facts. So... where exactly is this "conspiracy" you mentioned??
Dang, if only we had a Special Council to look into these things and decide if there was any actual evidence of guilt.
We... do? And... they did find evidence of guilt? A couple dozen indictments, and ~90% of the people who were able to be arrested have pled guilty?
Seems fairly straightforward. Oh wait, by "any evidence of guilt" do you mean "proof that the president committed treason?" That's completely irrelevant. Mueller wasn't appointed to find out that Trump is a Manchurian candidate - this isn't a movie. Mueller was appointed to investigate foreign criminal meddling in our election. That doesn't require a conspiracy. I mean if you want to make up conspiracies there are WAY better ones.
Well, as a Michigan voter whose vote was probably worth 10 times the vote of other states in past elections, I can say that the chosen, groomed one (Clinton) who ran against Trump was the major reason I voted for Trump. I don't think I was an outlier in reality. I don't pay any attention to Facebook or any other media outlet. My one vote was not in anyway influenced by Russia. Unless Russia hijacked votes this whole argument is BS IMHO...
What argument is BS? I'm not talking about influence campaigns and fake news generation (though Russia certainly did that, and your avoiding such social media makes you the exception, not the rule). I'm talking about the commission of the crime of Computer Trespass and Larceny, to obtain the private emails of the DNC to provide as ammunition to the other side. You think if someone hacked the RNC or the Trump campaign there wouldn't have been enough gold to sway a few tens of thousands of voters to stay home? Get real.
And even if you don't think it turned the election - they tried to. You think we should let them keep trying without repercussions?
Why not let them try? You can't really stop it. The answer is to not let morons vote. I have no problem with that
So, if you hack into my email or bank account, you have committed a felony and could lose years of your life in prison. But if an FSB agent does, he gets a pass? Is that where you've arrived? Literally defending Russian crimes on American soil?
I mean hey - it's only the KGB, right? Those are fun, cool guys. We should let them do whatever we want.
Those things you mentioned are actual crimes. That's completely different than targeting people with fake news.
Yeah - I was talking about actual crimes the whole time. I don't know why you responded abd started talking about fake news.
1) Russians commited actual crimes relating to the election...
2) A criminal investigation was begun...
3) Some of the targets of the investigation turned out to have awkward connections to the president-elect's campaign; potential conflicts of interest were raised...
4) The special counsel was appointed for the express purpose of being able to investigate crimes by Russians, in a way that protects the investigation from any conflicts of interest...
5) WarChiefZeke sees a conspiracy.
6) My question is: where is the conspiracy?
Still haven't heard an answer...
Let's for one minute engage in this scenario. Let's say that instead of rolling out the indictments over the course of the last two years, Mueller does EVERYTHING yesterday when submitting the report, and this is what is revealed (taken from a VOX article):
1) George Papadopoulos, former Trump campaign foreign policy adviser, was arrested in July 2017 and pleaded guilty in October 2017 to making false statements to the FBI. He got a 14-day sentence.
2) Paul Manafort, Trump’s former campaign chair, was indicted on a total of 25 different counts by Mueller’s team, related mainly to his past work for Ukrainian politicians and his finances. He had two trials scheduled, and the first ended in a conviction on eight counts of financial crimes. To avert the second trial, Manafort struck a plea deal with Mueller in September 2018 (though Mueller’s team said in November that he breached that agreement by lying to them). He was sentenced to a combined seven and a half years in prison.
3) Rick Gates, a former Trump campaign aide and Manafort’s longtime junior business partner, was indicted on similar charges to Manafort. But in February 2018 he agreed to a plea deal with Mueller’s team, pleading guilty to just one false statements charge and one conspiracy charge.
4) Michael Flynn, Trump’s former national security adviser, pleaded guilty in December 2017 to making false statements to the FBI.
5-20) 13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies were indicted on conspiracy charges, with some also being accused of identity theft. The charges related to a Russian propaganda effort designed to interfere with the 2016 campaign. The companies involved are the Internet Research Agency, often described as a “Russian troll farm,” and two other companies that helped finance it. The Russian nationals indicted include 12 of the agency’s employees and its alleged financier, Yevgeny Prigozhin.
21) Richard Pinedo: This California man pleaded guilty to an identity theft charge in connection with the Russian indictments, and has agreed to cooperate with Mueller. He was sentenced to 6 months in prison and 6 months of home detention in October 2018.
22) Alex van der Zwaan: This London lawyer pleaded guilty to making false statements to the FBI about his contacts with Rick Gates and another unnamed person based in Ukraine. He was sentenced to 30 days in jail and has completed his sentence.
23) Konstantin Kilimnik: This longtime business associate of Manafort and Gates, who’s currently based in Russia, was charged alongside Manafort with attempting to obstruct justice by tampering with witnesses in Manafort’s pending case last year.
24-35) 12 Russian GRU officers: These officers of Russia’s military intelligence service were charged with crimes related to the hacking and leaking of leading Democrats’ emails in 2016.
36) Michael Cohen: In August 2018, Trump’s former lawyer pleaded guilty to 8 counts — tax and bank charges, related to his finances and taxi business, and campaign finance violations — related to hush money payments to women who alleged affairs with Donald Trump, as part of a separate investigation in New York (that Mueller had handed off). But in November, he made a plea deal with Mueller too, for lying to Congress about efforts to build a Trump Tower in Moscow.
37) Roger Stone: In January 2019, Mueller indicted longtime Trump adviser Roger Stone on 7 counts. He accused Stone of lying to the House Intelligence Committee about his efforts to get in touch with WikiLeaks during the campaign, and tampering with a witness who could have debunked his story.
Instead of happening every couple of months over the course of two years, what if this happens all at once yesterday?? It would be viewed as an all-time bombshell. But because of the average American attention-span, it's impact is totally diluted because they all happened individually over time. Nevermind what we don't know about a report we haven't seen yet, what has been proven already is that, at a BARE minimum, a Russian intelligence operation was actively trying to help Trump and hurt his opponent, and that scores of people around him lied about it to investigators every step of the way.
are we ready to call the Russian Collusion conspiracy, the whole cause of the investigation and a myth peddled from all corners of the left wing and even parts of the anti trump right wing establishment, a conspiracy yet?
What are you even talking about?
- A foreign regime committed crimes against Americans in an effort to get Trump elected
- Trump encouraged such crimes
- Trump excused and defended the regime, disrespecting the work of American intelligence officials
- Trump's family and campaign officials met with envoys of that regime to discuss working together during the election
- Trump and his representatives lied about his business dealings with that regime
- Trump's representatives and campaign officials and members of his administration lied under oath on numerous occasions about their dealings with that regime
- Trump did crazy shit like have closed-door meetings with members of that regime, without advisors and without so much as an American translator
- Trump has repeatedly sucked up to hostile tyrants and damaged relationships with loyal allies, going so far as to physically shove the prime minister of a country that Putin dislikes
- Trump has repeatedly attacked the rights and traditions that distinguish America from pathetic despotic regimes like Russia
- Trump's business dealings and sources of income have been shrouded in mystery, notwithstanding we know Russian money was funneled through various real eastate dealings of his and of his campaign manager
Those are all undisputed facts. It's outrageous and shameful thst the leader of my country is do pathetic and gutless. And the actions of several of his advisors and family members have crossed the line into the realm if criminal conduct on several occasions. Thus the investigation to determine the full extent of such conduct.
Again: undisputed facts. So... where exactly is this "conspiracy" you mentioned??
Dang, if only we had a Special Council to look into these things and decide if there was any actual evidence of guilt.
We... do? And... they did find evidence of guilt? A couple dozen indictments, and ~90% of the people who were able to be arrested have pled guilty?
Seems fairly straightforward. Oh wait, by "any evidence of guilt" do you mean "proof that the president committed treason?" That's completely irrelevant. Mueller wasn't appointed to find out that Trump is a Manchurian candidate - this isn't a movie. Mueller was appointed to investigate foreign criminal meddling in our election. That doesn't require a conspiracy. I mean if you want to make up conspiracies there are WAY better ones.
Well, as a Michigan voter whose vote was probably worth 10 times the vote of other states in past elections, I can say that the chosen, groomed one (Clinton) who ran against Trump was the major reason I voted for Trump. I don't think I was an outlier in reality. I don't pay any attention to Facebook or any other media outlet. My one vote was not in anyway influenced by Russia. Unless Russia hijacked votes this whole argument is BS IMHO...
What argument is BS? I'm not talking about influence campaigns and fake news generation (though Russia certainly did that, and your avoiding such social media makes you the exception, not the rule). I'm talking about the commission of the crime of Computer Trespass and Larceny, to obtain the private emails of the DNC to provide as ammunition to the other side. You think if someone hacked the RNC or the Trump campaign there wouldn't have been enough gold to sway a few tens of thousands of voters to stay home? Get real.
And even if you don't think it turned the election - they tried to. You think we should let them keep trying without repercussions?
In fact, the original Times article casts some doubt on the claim, but the Beast inexplicably ignored those contradictory reports when it posted its own retelling of the story.
Comments
Part of the perception problem I think is that the original basis for the investigation has been forgotten. It was originally started by the FBI as a counterintelligence investigation - as confirmed by Comey's testimony to the House Intelligence Committee. The FBI has two different types of investigations it carries out:
- criminal investigations
- intelligence investigations
In the latter type criminal indictments can result, but they are not the main purpose of the investigation - that is to assess the implications for national security.
After Comey's sacking, the same investigation was transferred from the FBI to Mueller. He was given the same ability the FBI had to pursue federal crimes found during the investigation, but that was not the main purpose (the letter of appointment is here). I think someone made the point in one of the 69 posts in this thread waiting for me to look at this morning that the prosecutions made by Mueller were all intended to gain extra information. That's exactly what you would expect as the purpose of the investigation was to gain and evaluate information and not to prosecute crimes - and, unlike with the Starr investigation, Mueller has never sought notoriety or to score political points, but just to do the job he's been asked to do.
I would be interested to read the report (if it's ever published in full) to see what the conclusions are about the implications for national security of Russia supporting the campaign of a Presidential candidate. I would also be interested to see to what extent the report refers to some of the troubling behavior of Trump himself, like consistently undermining the basis for the investigation. Until and unless that report is released though, I'm not going to speculate further about what it contains.
If people are moronic enough to believe fake news, you can't stop it. The only answer is for people to not be morons. Good luck with that...
Why not let them try? You can't really stop it. The answer is to not let morons vote. I have no problem with that
Edit: Right now a dipshit who only gets their news from Fox News or some other moron who doesn't even know we have three branches of government has the same say in voting for a president as I do. I don't personally think that's 'fair'.
You are wore a badge of pride that you proudly stood with the "racist, sexist, transphobic, islamaphobic, arachnaphobic bigots". That's something you are proud of? You sided with the fundamentally hateful people, the ones that chanted lock her up and all sorts of nasty things and had all the assaults at the fact free rallies. People support a guy who never tells the truth and are proud being lied to and made to look foolish because it's so obvious he's lying.
Counties that hosted a 2016 Trump rally saw a 226 percent increase in hate crimes
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/22/trumps-rhetoric-does-inspire-more-hate-crimes/?utm_term=.55990e8fe870
No idea what you are talking about. So it wasn't pandering to the far left. You must have heard it somewhere on right wing propaganda because it didn't play in the left. It sounds like the right made a big deal out of nothing. They love getting people to hate and be disgusted. It's all they have to offer.
If you are going to give away your rights to people that only want to screw you over because some quote then that's just sad. Republicans do not give a damn about you. Look at their policies, not their fearmongering culture warz bullshit. They want tax cuts for the rich and corporations and to cut services that you and I use. But people are like "yeah take away my healthcare because mean lady said something!" what a joke that argument is. As if Saint Trump has never ever insulted anyone or said anything fucking stupid with every sentence he says. "You drove me to the alt-right" is just weakness.
Russia did hack the RNC, they just didn't release anything. Because they wanted Trump to win to ruin America and cause chaos like he has been doing for the past two years.
Democrats don't give a damn about me either. They don't listen to me any more than the Republicans. The difference is the Republicans are closer to my ideology. It hasn't stopped me for voting for a Democrat, but they have to deviate from their platform or be running against a Republican asshole to garner my vote.
Perhaps voting for a name, a survey is conducted on what differentiates each candidate from one another. The survey questions can be vetted by all candidates involved and the weight of a person's answers determines who their vote is cast for. Before submitting, you can choose not to vote for that candidate, however, you would be unable to retake the survey to get another result. Your vote is lost.
This of course would add a significant waiting time to actually cast a vote, but it would take all the negativity out of the voting process and the public would have to be sold competing ideas
Weird idea but maybe better than a poll test. I'd be for it but I doubt it'd ever see the light of day..
Wouldn't have worked against Bernie though, might have worked against Jeb if he'd have won however. Assuming the Russians liked Bernie over Bush in the chaos department. The real problem is 'why' it worked though. The average voter in the US is a moron. That's the real problem...
He's intent on taking away access to affordable Care act healthcare, he's promoting junk plans. His commissioner to the FCC took away Net Neutrality. His main accomplishment is acting like a fool and giving himself a massive massive tax cut and raising middle class taxes to pay for it. His budget priorities are horrendous and cut things for us to pay for the rich guy tax cuts. He wants to take money from vets and the military to pay for his flaccid worthless wall.
And on and on...
Mueller’s investigation has led to 215 criminal charges, 38 indictments or pleas, and five prison sentences so far. There are other investigations ongoing - Congressional, SDNY, and federal and state investigations I thought I saw a number 17 or 77 or something, can't find it atm. Trump was right when he said if we voted for Hillary we'd get a criminal President always under investigation.
Those things you mentioned are actual crimes. That's completely different than targeting people with fake news.
Sadly, I don’t think anyone involved in this story actually cares that this was made public. Let’s just enrich the rich further...
It's been evident from day one that nearly every Trump cabinet appointment was either putting someone with DIRECT ties to the industry in charge of it, or putting someone who literally wants to destroy the system under it's purview in charge. I don't know why anyone would think people would start caring now.
Let's take at face value the idea that most people who voted for Trump wanted to send a shock to a corrupt system. If that's the case, it was like trying to lose weight by hiring a world-class French pastry chef to live in your house and bake for you on a daily basis. If this is "draining the swamp", then I'm a f**king astronaut typing this from the moon. In this case, who apparently gives a shit about water and air pollution. No one in my experience really likes to breath normally and drink clean water anyway. Those things are more luxuries really. But hey, look at this. Maybe it isn't AT ALL surprising why this isn't on most people's radar:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2196146-ethnic-minorities-produce-less-pollution-but-are-exposed-to-more/
It's not some conspiracy. Trump put those people there because he wants to make things easier on businesses. Part of that was dismantling years and years of business unfriendly regulations. Agree with it or not, he's not trying to pull the wool over our eyes. He's doing exactly what he said he would do...
You could paint requiring buildings have fire extinguishers as an "unfriendly business regulation". After all, why FORCE them to spend the money on the (relatively small) chance a fire might break out?? Why make them have stocked First Aid kits?? Let's just let them do anything they want. We'll try it for a decade or two, then see where we are. Well, some people will be able to check. Alot them will be dead when they wouldn't have been before.
Those business 'unfriendly regulations' are usually consumer protections. Yes, it might be inconvenient for a company to not dump toxic waste in the water supply but it's for the best if they don't. His anti-protection agenda has also made it easier for robocalls, predatory lenders, and the like. But at least someone is looking out for the rich and powerful at regular people's expense and health and welfare.
@jjstraka34
I'm not defending Trump by any means, merely pointing out that it isn't some conspiracy. He's not trying to hide it. He promised to do this. There should be no surprise unless you didn't think he'd go this far...
We don't even need to "try it". We already DID it. Check out working conditions before government regulation was a thing in the US. People died, a LOT. Oftentimes not even for real currency.
The Russian interference is basically bombarding people with fake news on Facebook and whatnot. No votes were stolen, people were influenced to vote the way they wanted them to. As far as I can tell that's it. Give me an example of one stolen vote...
I don't think people actually realized to the degree he would actually go. For example opening up federal land and national parks to be exploited for resources is very much a short term gain for long term consequences but as long as it lines their pockets now, who cares about future generations enjoying national parks or endangered species.
Let's for one minute engage in this scenario. Let's say that instead of rolling out the indictments over the course of the last two years, Mueller does EVERYTHING yesterday when submitting the report, and this is what is revealed (taken from a VOX article):
1) George Papadopoulos, former Trump campaign foreign policy adviser, was arrested in July 2017 and pleaded guilty in October 2017 to making false statements to the FBI. He got a 14-day sentence.
2) Paul Manafort, Trump’s former campaign chair, was indicted on a total of 25 different counts by Mueller’s team, related mainly to his past work for Ukrainian politicians and his finances. He had two trials scheduled, and the first ended in a conviction on eight counts of financial crimes. To avert the second trial, Manafort struck a plea deal with Mueller in September 2018 (though Mueller’s team said in November that he breached that agreement by lying to them). He was sentenced to a combined seven and a half years in prison.
3) Rick Gates, a former Trump campaign aide and Manafort’s longtime junior business partner, was indicted on similar charges to Manafort. But in February 2018 he agreed to a plea deal with Mueller’s team, pleading guilty to just one false statements charge and one conspiracy charge.
4) Michael Flynn, Trump’s former national security adviser, pleaded guilty in December 2017 to making false statements to the FBI.
5-20) 13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies were indicted on conspiracy charges, with some also being accused of identity theft. The charges related to a Russian propaganda effort designed to interfere with the 2016 campaign. The companies involved are the Internet Research Agency, often described as a “Russian troll farm,” and two other companies that helped finance it. The Russian nationals indicted include 12 of the agency’s employees and its alleged financier, Yevgeny Prigozhin.
21) Richard Pinedo: This California man pleaded guilty to an identity theft charge in connection with the Russian indictments, and has agreed to cooperate with Mueller. He was sentenced to 6 months in prison and 6 months of home detention in October 2018.
22) Alex van der Zwaan: This London lawyer pleaded guilty to making false statements to the FBI about his contacts with Rick Gates and another unnamed person based in Ukraine. He was sentenced to 30 days in jail and has completed his sentence.
23) Konstantin Kilimnik: This longtime business associate of Manafort and Gates, who’s currently based in Russia, was charged alongside Manafort with attempting to obstruct justice by tampering with witnesses in Manafort’s pending case last year.
24-35) 12 Russian GRU officers: These officers of Russia’s military intelligence service were charged with crimes related to the hacking and leaking of leading Democrats’ emails in 2016.
36) Michael Cohen: In August 2018, Trump’s former lawyer pleaded guilty to 8 counts — tax and bank charges, related to his finances and taxi business, and campaign finance violations — related to hush money payments to women who alleged affairs with Donald Trump, as part of a separate investigation in New York (that Mueller had handed off). But in November, he made a plea deal with Mueller too, for lying to Congress about efforts to build a Trump Tower in Moscow.
37) Roger Stone: In January 2019, Mueller indicted longtime Trump adviser Roger Stone on 7 counts. He accused Stone of lying to the House Intelligence Committee about his efforts to get in touch with WikiLeaks during the campaign, and tampering with a witness who could have debunked his story.
Instead of happening every couple of months over the course of two years, what if this happens all at once yesterday?? It would be viewed as an all-time bombshell. But because of the average American attention-span, it's impact is totally diluted because they all happened individually over time. Nevermind what we don't know about a report we haven't seen yet, what has been proven already is that, at a BARE minimum, a Russian intelligence operation was actively trying to help Trump and hurt his opponent, and that scores of people around him lied about it to investigators every step of the way.
That claim (which was originally reported by the NY Times in Dec. 2016) was later clarified: https://www.wsj.com/articles/republican-national-committee-security-foiled-russian-hackers-1481850043
In fact, the original Times article casts some doubt on the claim, but the Beast inexplicably ignored those contradictory reports when it posted its own retelling of the story.
That's sort of the crux of the issue, though - here's just a brief glimpse:
Meanwhile, in France:
I think the Russians hacked your link, doesn't work for me.