Try imagine for a SINGLE SECOND what the response would be if a Democrat said something like this. This is open-season on American democracy being actively encouraged by a man who is sworn to protect this country as the #1 priority of his job. Based on this single interview, would should already be suspect of the 2020 results. He is saying in no uncertain terms to any foreign power "sabotage it in my favor, we not only won't try stop it, we'll help you". As I have said for months, the Republican Party just flat-out no longer believes in democracy, and if they say nothing about this, it is the final piece of evidence anyone will ever need.
Did you want him to lie and say he wouldn't take the information?
I think, ideally, you would want the president of the United States to not put himself I position of being blackmailed or in a compromising position.
"We have dirt on Biden, we'll share it with you if you allow us to annex Hawaii. It's a blue state anyway, you won't miss it."
Try imagine for a SINGLE SECOND what the response would be if a Democrat said something like this. This is open-season on American democracy being actively encouraged by a man who is sworn to protect this country as the #1 priority of his job. Based on this single interview, would should already be suspect of the 2020 results. He is saying in no uncertain terms to any foreign power "sabotage it in my favor, we not only won't try stop it, we'll help you". As I have said for months, the Republican Party just flat-out no longer believes in democracy, and if they say nothing about this, it is the final piece of evidence anyone will ever need.
Did you want him to lie and say he wouldn't take the information?
I'd like there to be accountability for it. I'd like people who profess to care about law and order to rebuke him for advocating and exploiting the commission of crimes for political gain.
I'd like people who talk a lot of talk, to walk a little walk.
You're right. I'm going to call him right now and give him a piece of my mind!
Try imagine for a SINGLE SECOND what the response would be if a Democrat said something like this. This is open-season on American democracy being actively encouraged by a man who is sworn to protect this country as the #1 priority of his job. Based on this single interview, would should already be suspect of the 2020 results. He is saying in no uncertain terms to any foreign power "sabotage it in my favor, we not only won't try stop it, we'll help you". As I have said for months, the Republican Party just flat-out no longer believes in democracy, and if they say nothing about this, it is the final piece of evidence anyone will ever need.
Did you want him to lie and say he wouldn't take the information?
I think, ideally, you would want the president of the United States to not put himself I position of being blackmailed or in a compromising position.
"We have dirt on Biden, we'll share it with you if you allow us to annex Hawaii. It's a blue state anyway, you won't miss it."
Try imagine for a SINGLE SECOND what the response would be if a Democrat said something like this. This is open-season on American democracy being actively encouraged by a man who is sworn to protect this country as the #1 priority of his job. Based on this single interview, would should already be suspect of the 2020 results. He is saying in no uncertain terms to any foreign power "sabotage it in my favor, we not only won't try stop it, we'll help you". As I have said for months, the Republican Party just flat-out no longer believes in democracy, and if they say nothing about this, it is the final piece of evidence anyone will ever need.
Did you want him to lie and say he wouldn't take the information?
No we want him to do the right thing and neither lie nor accept aid and comfort from hostile foreign powers.
What's that thing called where you do the right thing even when no ones looking? Yeah he's got none of that.
Doing the right thing is never going to happen with this guy, he's gotta go.
Try imagine for a SINGLE SECOND what the response would be if a Democrat said something like this. This is open-season on American democracy being actively encouraged by a man who is sworn to protect this country as the #1 priority of his job. Based on this single interview, would should already be suspect of the 2020 results. He is saying in no uncertain terms to any foreign power "sabotage it in my favor, we not only won't try stop it, we'll help you". As I have said for months, the Republican Party just flat-out no longer believes in democracy, and if they say nothing about this, it is the final piece of evidence anyone will ever need.
Did you want him to lie and say he wouldn't take the information?
No we want him to do the right thing and neither lie nor accept aid and comfort from hostile foreign powers.
What's that thing called where you do the right thing even when no ones looking? Yeah he's got none of that.
Doing the right thing is never going to happen with this guy, he's gotta go.
Let's think through the ramifications here (aside from the fact that we've already seen this movie, and now they are prepping for Infinity War and Endgame). He is the President of the United States. Sworn to protect the country. Simply by watching this clip, we now know this:
1.) He has no concern of whether the information is true or false, or what the ulterior motives of those providing it are. Only that it helps him.
2.) Every hostile foreign power the world over now KNOWS this for a certified FACT because of what he just said and his past actions, he can now essentially be bought off and made to do essentially anything they want, if only they are willing to provide dirt (whether true, false, or made up completely out of the blue) on his opponent.
3.) This is like the McAlisters leaving their front door open when leaving their house for Christmas vacation if they had had ADVANCE knowledge the Wet Bandits were staking out their house. Except it's actually far worse than that. It would actually be like if the family was in on it with the burglars in a house insurance scam.
4.) Republicans and anyone who supports can them can stop talking about patriotism, rule of law, and ESPECIALLY national security from now until the Sun becomes a Red Giant an envelopes the Earth 5 billion years from now. This is not only opening the door to, but ACTIVELY ENCOURAGING foreign powers to manipulate the ONE thing citizens of this country have to make their voice heard, which is their vote. It's not a coincidence that this week McConnell refused to bring a bill to the Senate floor focusing on election security. We aren't dealing with a party who is any longer worried about losing elections. We are dealing with a party who is attempting to make sure elections no longer matter at all by rigging the game before it begins. The Republican Party has abandoned all precepts of fair play, rules, norms and (at long last) the law itself. There is nothing left here but pursuit and exercise of raw power by any means necessary.
I just had a look at the video clip @jjstraka34 posted of Trump. That includes the following line of argument:
- opposition research is seen as the way to go in elections.
- opposition research provided by a foreign power is specifically stated to not be interference.
- the FBI director is therefore wrong to say he should be informed about such 'interference'.
- the situation where Al Gore informed the FBI when he was sent a stolen briefing book was different (no explanation given as to why).
We've talked lots of times before about how openly Trump operates. He might be right about the value of opposition research in elections (though I'd like to think that your own policies and practices would have some relevance), but advocating so openly that it doesn't matter where information comes from is part of the process of normalizing behavior that would have been classed as unacceptable in the past. If law and morality are regarded as unimportant compared to power that seems to me to pose a problem for a democratic system.
And the dumb thing is Trump doesn't need opposition research. He has a vivid evil imagination and no scruples about just making stuff up. 'Sleepy Joe Biden', based on what? Nothing? But he's going to repeat it endlessly anyway.
So anyway, yeah you are not supposed to welcome attacks on Americans from foreign powers. That is a very basic prerequisite for American citizenship. It should not be a question mark about the President's behavior. If you were trying to become a US citizen and in the interview you said you didn't care if a hostile power provided damaging information on other Americans the interviewer would deny you and send you away.
The question was specifically about accepting information from a foreign government. The part where he says his own FBI Director is "wrong" is just him pulling a Judge Dredd. In his view, he IS the law. He has lawyers in court right now arguing Congress has absolutely no right to investigate a President.
Trump for the last two years: "No collusion, no collusion, no collusion"
Yesterday basically it went like this....
George Stephanopoulos: "Would you do collusion in the future?"
Trump: "Yes. And I would probably keep it a secret."
"The #MuellerReport made it clear: A foreign government attacked our 2016 elections to support Trump, Trump welcomed that help, and Trump obstructed the investigation. Now, he said he'd do it all over again. It's time to impeach Donald Trump." - Elizabeth Warren
The straw man making the rounds last night and today is "what, you can't talk to anyone from another country??". First off, Stephanopoulos asked specifically about a foreign government. For another thing, Volume I of the Mueller Report makes it CRYSTAL clear that the election interference was not some random Russians having a laugh. It was a coordinated military and intelligence operation. Of course, since no one has read it, no one really knows this, or the extent of how vast the reach was of what many will dismiss as "a few Facebook posts and tweets". It was infinitely worse than that, to the point where their campaign reached not hundreds, not thousands, and not millions, but tens fo millions of people.
In the end, after reading Volume 1, the reason for Trump's obstruction in Volume II became self-eveident. He viewed the report and it's findings as a blow to his legitimacy, and with good reason, because it is.
Considering she hadn't held a press conference in so long the podium was literally gathering dust, it's hard to even know what her job was anymore. In a position that can (admittedly) require a certain amount of spin or obfuscation, she was, by leaps and bounds, the most mendacious person to ever hold her position, and that position has been held by Ron Ziegler (Nixon) and Ari Fleischer (Bush 43).
The Office of Special Counsel (OSC) (a government agency - not Mueller) sent a 17-page report to Trump accusing Conway of breaking the law on numerous occasions “by disparaging Democratic presidential candidates while speaking in her official capacity during television interviews and on social media” and calling on the president to oust her “immediately.”
“As a highly visible member of the administration, Ms. Conway’s violations, if left unpunished, would send a message to all federal employees that they need not abide by the Hatch Act’s restrictions,” special counsel Henry Kerner wrote to Trump. “Her actions thus erode the principal foundation of our democratic system — the rule of law.”
The LA Times of all places summing up my view of the Kellyanne Conway non-story...
opinion writers are not news.
The Hatch Act is federal law. Kellyanne Conway is not and should not be above the law. Just because some people are cool with her breaking the law doesn't make it right. We really need Democrats to take back the government from lawless corrupt Republicans.
The LA Times of all places summing up my view of the Kellyanne Conway non-story...
opinion writers are not news.
The Hatch Act is federal law. Kellyanne Conway is not and should not be above the law. Just because some people are cool with her breaking the law doesn't make it right. We really need Democrats to take back the government from lawless corrupt Republicans.
That law is apparently open to interpretation more so than most laws. Most of the time from what I can see, only warnings are issued (if that). Kinda like speeding on the freeway. That's why this is a big nothingberder to me...
She's been warned not to speed on the freeway several times and she insists on going 150 miles an hour. She's not exactly sneaky either about it, she's brazenly breaking the law. Most who "accidentally" break the law apologize and try not to do it again. Especially when called out by the cops. She's saying screw it I'm above the law.
She's been warned not to speed on the freeway several times and she insists on going 150 miles an hour. She's not exactly sneaky either about it, she's brazenly breaking the law.
She's rich and white. She could probably drive a Mazarotti 150 mph in a school-zone and get off with a warning. That's pretty much the hand-slap she's getting anyway. "Hey Mr. President, your advisor is breaking the Hatch Act. Please make her go away. Or don't. Whatever...".
She's been warned not to speed on the freeway several times and she insists on going 150 miles an hour. She's not exactly sneaky either about it, she's brazenly breaking the law.
She's rich and white. She could probably drive a Mazarotti 150 mph in a school-zone and get off with a warning. That's pretty much the hand-slap she's getting anyway. "Hey Mr. President, your advisor is breaking the Hatch Act. Please make her go away. Or don't. Whatever...".
That's not what they said this time. The first time was that. This time was we have enough she should be fired immediately. Because she's kept breaking the law.
She's been warned not to speed on the freeway several times and she insists on going 150 miles an hour. She's not exactly sneaky either about it, she's brazenly breaking the law.
She's rich and white. She could probably drive a Mazarotti 150 mph in a school-zone and get off with a warning. That's pretty much the hand-slap she's getting anyway. "Hey Mr. President, your advisor is breaking the Hatch Act. Please make her go away. Or don't. Whatever...".
That's not what they said this time. The first time was that. This time was we have enough she should be fired immediately. Because she's kept breaking the law.
What is it next time? We 'strenuously' recommend you get rid of her? They can recommend all they want but they have no power. We're paying these people's salaries too. That's hilarious to me. Only in the government...
They're doing their jobs. The chain of command is supposed to work. When you have people who hate America and only care about themselves like Trump in charge obviously it doesn't.
It's utterly disheartening to watch Trump's plan to avoid responsibility work to absolute perfection. This attitude that is taking over that "well, that's just how they operate, nothing we can do about it" is EXACTLY what they are counting on. A nation so zombified and flooded with insane bullshit day after day after day they just collectively throws up their hands as they steamroll every remaining barrier to a civil, functioning government. People should really read the work of journalists who specialize in covering authoritarian states, because this is the handbook they hand out on the first day of class to aspiring autocrats. They've realized there are no actual rules that apply, no actual authority that binds them. How, pray tell, do people imagine we are going to take it back after relinquishing it to them??
They're doing their jobs. The chain of command is supposed to work. When you have people who hate America and only care about themselves like Trump in charge obviously it doesn't.
Real law-breaking has real consequences. This is an arbitrary guideline law or something, not a real law. At worst somebody might lose their government job, but they won't do any jail time. Stop trying to make this look like it's a criminal law when clearly it isn't!
They're doing their jobs. The chain of command is supposed to work. When you have people who hate America and only care about themselves like Trump in charge obviously it doesn't.
Real law-breaking has real consequences. This is an arbitrary guideline law or something, not a real law. At worst somebody might lose their government job, but they won't do any jail time. Stop trying to make this look like it's a criminal law when clearly it isn't!
The Merit Systems Protection Board and the Office of Special Counsel (OSC) are responsible for enforcement of the Hatch Act. The OSC did their job of notifying the President of egregious breaking of the law. The President clearly does not care about the rule of law.
The penalty provision in the Hatch Political Activity Act, 5 U.S.C.S. § 1506(a), clearly gives the employer the choice of removing the employee in question “from his office or employment,” or forfeiting federal funds equal to two years' pay at the rate or amount the employee was receiving at the time of the violation.
Let's see what happens if we apply the standards many are using to excuse the Trump Administration, this shrug your shoulders indifference to literally EVERYTHING to all everyday citizens. No one is obligated to abide by any rules, and no one is responsible for anything they do. Of course this gets to the quote that has come up before, but I am becoming more and more certain gets to the heart of the issue in it's totality:
“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition.…There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”
I kind of think you guys are all missing the forest for the trees here. The point of the Hatch Act boils down to this:
Yes, Conway is a pokitical operative working on behalf of Trump. Every politicians has political operatives going on TV and attacking their opponents, etc.
BUT, those operatives are paid out of campaign funds. If Conway wants to be a political operative she can do that; but do we want our taxes to pay for that? @Balrog99? I would think any conservative would not want higher taxes and/or deficit to bankroll this or that politician's flunkies.
She has been warned over and over and over again about it for over two years. You know what her response was when asked about it by the media?? And I quote, "Tell me when the jail sentence starts". These people aren't just ignoring the rules. They are openly mocking (on live television cameras no less) the very IDEA that they would ever have to follow them. This is what happens in countries where things start to fall apart. They move the Overton Window (for themselves only mind you) so far from where it was that what once seemed extreme is now seen as only "middle of the road" and what was once seen as complete lunacy is accepted as business as usual. Like kids, they will keep pushing the limits farther and farther until someone stops them. But that is the point I have been trying to hammer home for months. There IS nothing to stop them.
This entire house of cards was predicated on a set of rules. You know, like everything from basketball to Monopoly to Dungeons & Dragons and credit card terms are. We operate within confined parameters of what is acceptable and allowed in everything from people who use our highways, to the sports we enjoy, to the entertainment everyone on this forum enjoys. Every one of the things I mentioned are only possible or enjoyable in any way because there are a.) rules and b.) people generally follow them. If someone starts going 120 mph on the interstate or drives drunk, there are mechanisms in place to stop it or discourage it. Why?? Because allowing everyone to do so would destroy the ability to engage in transportation with cars safely. If one team in a basketball games decides after every basket they are going to insist on getting an extra possession, no one in their right mind would play that game. Nor would any DM or group of players sit down for a level 1 adventure with some asshole who insists on attaining Lichdom at the onset while the rest of the party is walking around with slings and short swords. No one would EVER accept this kind of behavior in any other circumstance, and yet, here we are. The only overriding principle of this Administration at this point is "rules and laws are for suckers". That is the fucking battle-cry of the Republican Party at this point. There isn't anything else to say about it.
Comments
I think, ideally, you would want the president of the United States to not put himself I position of being blackmailed or in a compromising position.
"We have dirt on Biden, we'll share it with you if you allow us to annex Hawaii. It's a blue state anyway, you won't miss it."
exaggeration, but still.
You're right. I'm going to call him right now and give him a piece of my mind!
Not Hawaii, but maybe Puerto Rico?
No we want him to do the right thing and neither lie nor accept aid and comfort from hostile foreign powers.
What's that thing called where you do the right thing even when no ones looking? Yeah he's got none of that.
Doing the right thing is never going to happen with this guy, he's gotta go.
Maybe he's just got a really curious mind.
"Hello, Vladimir?"
1.) He has no concern of whether the information is true or false, or what the ulterior motives of those providing it are. Only that it helps him.
2.) Every hostile foreign power the world over now KNOWS this for a certified FACT because of what he just said and his past actions, he can now essentially be bought off and made to do essentially anything they want, if only they are willing to provide dirt (whether true, false, or made up completely out of the blue) on his opponent.
3.) This is like the McAlisters leaving their front door open when leaving their house for Christmas vacation if they had had ADVANCE knowledge the Wet Bandits were staking out their house. Except it's actually far worse than that. It would actually be like if the family was in on it with the burglars in a house insurance scam.
4.) Republicans and anyone who supports can them can stop talking about patriotism, rule of law, and ESPECIALLY national security from now until the Sun becomes a Red Giant an envelopes the Earth 5 billion years from now. This is not only opening the door to, but ACTIVELY ENCOURAGING foreign powers to manipulate the ONE thing citizens of this country have to make their voice heard, which is their vote. It's not a coincidence that this week McConnell refused to bring a bill to the Senate floor focusing on election security. We aren't dealing with a party who is any longer worried about losing elections. We are dealing with a party who is attempting to make sure elections no longer matter at all by rigging the game before it begins. The Republican Party has abandoned all precepts of fair play, rules, norms and (at long last) the law itself. There is nothing left here but pursuit and exercise of raw power by any means necessary.
- opposition research is seen as the way to go in elections.
- opposition research provided by a foreign power is specifically stated to not be interference.
- the FBI director is therefore wrong to say he should be informed about such 'interference'.
- the situation where Al Gore informed the FBI when he was sent a stolen briefing book was different (no explanation given as to why).
We've talked lots of times before about how openly Trump operates. He might be right about the value of opposition research in elections (though I'd like to think that your own policies and practices would have some relevance), but advocating so openly that it doesn't matter where information comes from is part of the process of normalizing behavior that would have been classed as unacceptable in the past. If law and morality are regarded as unimportant compared to power that seems to me to pose a problem for a democratic system.
So anyway, yeah you are not supposed to welcome attacks on Americans from foreign powers. That is a very basic prerequisite for American citizenship. It should not be a question mark about the President's behavior. If you were trying to become a US citizen and in the interview you said you didn't care if a hostile power provided damaging information on other Americans the interviewer would deny you and send you away.
Yesterday basically it went like this....
George Stephanopoulos: "Would you do collusion in the future?"
Trump: "Yes. And I would probably keep it a secret."
In the end, after reading Volume 1, the reason for Trump's obstruction in Volume II became self-eveident. He viewed the report and it's findings as a blow to his legitimacy, and with good reason, because it is.
Also Trump doesn't know how long he has been president.
The Office of Special Counsel (OSC) (a government agency - not Mueller) sent a 17-page report to Trump accusing Conway of breaking the law on numerous occasions “by disparaging Democratic presidential candidates while speaking in her official capacity during television interviews and on social media” and calling on the president to oust her “immediately.”
“As a highly visible member of the administration, Ms. Conway’s violations, if left unpunished, would send a message to all federal employees that they need not abide by the Hatch Act’s restrictions,” special counsel Henry Kerner wrote to Trump. “Her actions thus erode the principal foundation of our democratic system — the rule of law.”
The LA Times of all places summing up my view of the Kellyanne Conway non-story...
opinion writers are not news.
The Hatch Act is federal law. Kellyanne Conway is not and should not be above the law. Just because some people are cool with her breaking the law doesn't make it right. We really need Democrats to take back the government from lawless corrupt Republicans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatch_Act_of_1939
That law is apparently open to interpretation more so than most laws. Most of the time from what I can see, only warnings are issued (if that). Kinda like speeding on the freeway. That's why this is a big nothingberder to me...
She's rich and white. She could probably drive a Mazarotti 150 mph in a school-zone and get off with a warning. That's pretty much the hand-slap she's getting anyway. "Hey Mr. President, your advisor is breaking the Hatch Act. Please make her go away. Or don't. Whatever...".
That's not what they said this time. The first time was that. This time was we have enough she should be fired immediately. Because she's kept breaking the law.
What is it next time? We 'strenuously' recommend you get rid of her? They can recommend all they want but they have no power. We're paying these people's salaries too. That's hilarious to me. Only in the government...
Real law-breaking has real consequences. This is an arbitrary guideline law or something, not a real law. At worst somebody might lose their government job, but they won't do any jail time. Stop trying to make this look like it's a criminal law when clearly it isn't!
Federal law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatch_Act_of_1939
The Merit Systems Protection Board and the Office of Special Counsel (OSC) are responsible for enforcement of the Hatch Act. The OSC did their job of notifying the President of egregious breaking of the law. The President clearly does not care about the rule of law.
The penalty provision in the Hatch Political Activity Act, 5 U.S.C.S. § 1506(a), clearly gives the employer the choice of removing the employee in question “from his office or employment,” or forfeiting federal funds equal to two years' pay at the rate or amount the employee was receiving at the time of the violation.
“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition.…There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”
Well, to give the benefit of the doubt, she has been working with Trump for 3.5 years, since 2016.
She has been warned over and over and over again about it for over two years. You know what her response was when asked about it by the media?? And I quote, "Tell me when the jail sentence starts". These people aren't just ignoring the rules. They are openly mocking (on live television cameras no less) the very IDEA that they would ever have to follow them. This is what happens in countries where things start to fall apart. They move the Overton Window (for themselves only mind you) so far from where it was that what once seemed extreme is now seen as only "middle of the road" and what was once seen as complete lunacy is accepted as business as usual. Like kids, they will keep pushing the limits farther and farther until someone stops them. But that is the point I have been trying to hammer home for months. There IS nothing to stop them.
This entire house of cards was predicated on a set of rules. You know, like everything from basketball to Monopoly to Dungeons & Dragons and credit card terms are. We operate within confined parameters of what is acceptable and allowed in everything from people who use our highways, to the sports we enjoy, to the entertainment everyone on this forum enjoys. Every one of the things I mentioned are only possible or enjoyable in any way because there are a.) rules and b.) people generally follow them. If someone starts going 120 mph on the interstate or drives drunk, there are mechanisms in place to stop it or discourage it. Why?? Because allowing everyone to do so would destroy the ability to engage in transportation with cars safely. If one team in a basketball games decides after every basket they are going to insist on getting an extra possession, no one in their right mind would play that game. Nor would any DM or group of players sit down for a level 1 adventure with some asshole who insists on attaining Lichdom at the onset while the rest of the party is walking around with slings and short swords. No one would EVER accept this kind of behavior in any other circumstance, and yet, here we are. The only overriding principle of this Administration at this point is "rules and laws are for suckers". That is the fucking battle-cry of the Republican Party at this point. There isn't anything else to say about it.