I mean, I don't really have anything to add. Maybe @WarChiefZeke can come in and try to defend Trump's blatant criminal activity like they always do...
@Balrog99: Not really. A lot of this is still up in the air (the Ukraine thing is still mostly invisible to the public), it's pretty early (the story is less than a day old), and much of the impact will be optics given that the GOP is sure to vote to protect Trump out of fear, regardless of what comes to light (none of the other scandals changed the GOP's position). We've discussed the implications of impeachment before, so this isn't exactly an unexpected step. The Democratic party has been on the fence on the impeachment issue for a long time now. This is just the formal start of the process. We'll have more to chew on when (or if) we get more information about the phone call in question.
I have to agree with other posters that no, we really can't trust a transcript from the administration at this point. We've seen the Trump administration attempt to falsify official materials before, and I see no reason why Trump would consider editing, or even outright fabricating, a transcript to be beneath him. It's the sort of thing he would do if he thought it would protect him.
Apparently Trump called Pelosi today and asked if they could "work something out on the whistleblower thing". It's fairly clear now they can no longer argue it didn't happen. Giuliani and Trump have both admitted as much. The whistleblower is going to appear before a Congressional committee. The strategy now is to say it was completely proper and bank on 34 Republicans in the Senate (which they will certainly have). There is a reason Mitch McConnell gave in today to the unanimous vote on having the complaint released. He now knows it's inevitable this shit-storm is landing right on his desk. Before today, an argument could be made it was Pelosi who was aiding and abetting Trump. Now, it will be McConnell and his Senate Republicans who in the end ride or die with him. Again, they never thought the Democrats would pull the trigger, and now they are legitimately terrified of the consequences. It also goes to show you the power of narrative and going on offense. Trump has dominated the narrative and been on the offensive every day of his Presidency. Today, the tables turned. It was a decent calculation based on past history the Democrats would wimp out. He was wrong.
@Balrog99: Not really. A lot of this is still up in the air (the Ukraine thing is still mostly invisible to the public), it's pretty early (the story is less than a day old), and much of the impact will be optics given that the GOP is sure to vote to protect Trump out of fear, regardless of what comes to light (none of the other scandals changed the GOP's position). We've discussed the implications of impeachment before, so this isn't exactly an unexpected step. The Democratic party has been on the fence on the impeachment issue for a long time now. This is just the formal start of the process. We'll have more to chew on when (or if) we get more information about the phone call in question.
I have to agree with other posters that no, we really can't trust a transcript from the administration at this point. We've seen the Trump administration attempt to falsify official materials before, and I see no reason why Trump would consider editing, or even outright fabricating, a transcript to be beneath him. It's the sort of thing he would do if he thought it would protect him.
Moreover, there is likely to be important context that will be elided even with a tape transcript. It seems Congress already found evidence of them withholding money that had been previously agreed to be sent to Ukraine. Apparently that's how this whole investigation started from Congress's end. The quid pro quo is there even if it isn't in the actual transcript that gets released.
Personally, I think it's insane that people don't see the alarming problem here. *Even if* there was actual corruption between the company Hunter Biden was a board member on and the Ukrainian government -- it is absolutely out of bounds for a political leader to request a prosecutor investigate a specific individual. That alone would call into question the criminal investigation itself. Much worse obviously, is the US president asking a foreign government to do it, when the US government is supposed to defend its people first and foremost. While a US government obviously shouldn't override a proper criminal investigation, it needs to, akin to the job of a defense counsel, defend the interests of US citizens.
More aggravating, to me, is that the whole "scandal" is a shameless lie being coordinated by nearly all the powerful actors among the conservative movement in the US. The connection to Joe Biden is so tissue thin, it's ridiculous. A notoriously corrupt Ukranian prosecutor had, among many cases, one case involving a company where Biden's son sat on the board of directors? That prosecutor was fired due to immense internal and external pressure because he was seen almost universally as corrupt. In fact, the allegations of corruption against this prosecutor were sabotaging the investigation into this particular company. And this series of event somehow indicts Joe Biden? It's a degree of lying that just continues to astonish me.
There is ZERO chance the White House and DoJ would even be offering to release the complaint later this week if this didn't happen today. This is the first time they have acquiesced to ANYTHING. It took announcing impeachment to do so.
Even as a matter of game theory, the Democrats had to do this. Trump only speaks one language, which is the language of wielding and exercising power. It's the only thing he will respond to.
Moreover, why is the White House releasing (supposedly) the whistleblower report?? They shouldn't have it in the first place. Meanwhile, it may be Giuliani who gets thrown under the bus. The man who made his name prosecuting the mafia ends up, in the end, acting in an indistinguishable way from the people he put in prison:
I mean, I don't really have anything to add. Maybe @WarChiefZeke can come in and try to defend Trump's blatant criminal activity like they always do...
I will ever remain the skeptic in the room, poking holes in stories that everyone thinks they have entirely figured out. However, I like to sit on these big stories that have little in the way of proof, and see how they play out. Sooner or later, everything comes to light. Having an opinion before that usually just makes the facts harder to accept, if they will be accepted at all.
I do think the willingness on Trump's part to release all the available documents says that their claims are, at least, overblown. In fact, had he not done anything, I would still hold this position until something indicated otherwise, because i've been burned enough times by media narratives to know better. I also think that doing it with the approval of the Ukrainian government lends it credibility. Trump trying to pressure them to just lie would just get him in hot water again, as assuming any of this is true, he's clearly not very subtle or intelligent.
"Blatant criminal activity" though? That's a bit premature. You don't even know what the contents are, just what you have been told third hand.
I mean, I don't really have anything to add. Maybe @WarChiefZeke can come in and try to defend Trump's blatant criminal activity like they always do...
I will ever remain the skeptic in the room, poking holes in stories that everyone thinks they have entirely figured out. However, I like to sit on these big stories that have little in the way of proof, and see how they play out. Sooner or later, everything comes to light. Having an opinion before that usually just makes the facts harder to accept, if they will be accepted at all.
I do think the willingness on Trump's part to release all the available documents says that their claims are, at least, overblown. In fact, had he not done anything, I would still hold this position until something indicated otherwise, because i've been burned enough times by media narratives to know better. I also think that doing it with the approval of the Ukrainian government lends it credibility. Trump trying to pressure them to just lie would just get him in hot water again, as assuming any of this is true, he's clearly not very subtle or intelligent.
"Blatant criminal activity" though? That's a bit premature. You don't even know what the contents are, just what you have been told third hand.
I agree with @jjstraka34 that the Democrats had to do this. Whether or not it works in their favor is up to the American people. The Democratic Party pretty much had to shit or get off the pot...
I mean, I don't really have anything to add. Maybe @WarChiefZeke can come in and try to defend Trump's blatant criminal activity like they always do...
I will ever remain the skeptic in the room, poking holes in stories that everyone thinks they have entirely figured out. However, I like to sit on these big stories that have little in the way of proof, and see how they play out. Sooner or later, everything comes to light. Having an opinion before that usually just makes the facts harder to accept, if they will be accepted at all.
I do think the willingness on Trump's part to release all the available documents says that their claims are, at least, overblown. In fact, had he not done anything, I would still hold this position until something indicated otherwise, because i've been burned enough times by media narratives to know better. I also think that doing it with the approval of the Ukrainian government lends it credibility. Trump trying to pressure them to just lie would just get him in hot water again, as assuming any of this is true, he's clearly not very subtle or intelligent.
"Blatant criminal activity" though? That's a bit premature. You don't even know what the contents are, just what you have been told third hand.
I agree with @jjstraka34 that the Democrats had to do this. Whether or not it works in their favor is up to the American people. The Democratic Party pretty much had to shit or get off the pot...
Of course, they had to back up their words at some point. Problem is, only people that really want impeachment are democrats. The majority of independents and republicans oppose it as well as registered voters in general.
People see it as dirty politics. I wonder why. They've just been waiting for an opportunity, any pretext will do. Their constantly hostile attitude is bad for society in the long run, not to mention their own perspective.
Even his reasoning for withholding the money has changed. First he said it was because he was magically all of a sudden concerned about corruption. Within 24 hours he said it was because European countries weren't paying enough of their fair share......to a country he supposedly didn't think deserved the money because of worries about corruption. So if you follow Trump's own bullshit stories, he wanted Europe to give more aide to a country he wasn't sure should get any in the first place. Nevermind that it isn't his to withhold, as it was appropriated by Congress. Apparently even McConnell wasn't told the reason why. One can assume if it was either of the above reasons, he would have been.
Even his reasoning for withholding the money has changed. First he said it was because he was magically all of a sudden concerned about corruption. Within 24 hours he said it was because European countries weren't paying enough of their fair share......to a country he supposedly didn't think deserved the money because of worries about corruption. So if you follow Trump's own bullshit stories, he wanted Europe to give more aide to a country he wasn't sure should get any in the first place. Nevermind that it isn't his to withhold, as it was appropriated by Congress. Apparently even McConnell wasn't told the reason why. One can assume if it was either of the above reasons, he would have been.
I know where you stand on this but I really think this is a big risk by the Democrats. This could turn out to be a decades long gamble. I, for one, am reaching for my popcorn. I'm no fan of Trump but I know how folks in his corner think. I also know that the Democrats are not as popular as they think they are...
Even his reasoning for withholding the money has changed. First he said it was because he was magically all of a sudden concerned about corruption. Within 24 hours he said it was because European countries weren't paying enough of their fair share......to a country he supposedly didn't think deserved the money because of worries about corruption. So if you follow Trump's own bullshit stories, he wanted Europe to give more aide to a country he wasn't sure should get any in the first place. Nevermind that it isn't his to withhold, as it was appropriated by Congress. Apparently even McConnell wasn't told the reason why. One can assume if it was either of the above reasons, he would have been.
I know where you stand on this but I really think is a big risk by the Democrats. This could turn out to be a decades long gamble. I, for one, am reaching for my popcorn. I'm no fan of Trump but I know how folks in his corner think. I also know that the Democrats are not as popular as they think they are...
This has nothing to do with popularity. Also, in regards to their so-called eagerness to comply with requests. The "transcript" will magically become "notes" and they will attempt to issue a redacted version of the whistleblower complaint, and that everything they said this afternoon/evening was smoke and mirrors.
Since I'm back in the game here, what's everybody's thoughts on this Swedish girl spouting off about Climate Change? She's very emotional but I personally think that's about all she's got. I'm very sceptical about a person who's never held a job, doesn't have a family relying on her yet and has never paid taxes spouting off about her parents' generation 'destroying' the planet. It really smells scripted and phony to me...
Since I'm back in the game here, what's everybody's thoughts on this Swedish girl spouting off about Climate Change? She's very emotional but I personally think that's about all she's got. I'm very sceptical about people who've never held a job, don't have a family and have never paid taxes spouting off about her parents' generation 'destroying' the planet. It really smells scripted and phony to me...
Why does everyone think she is being controlled by someone?? They're the ones who are gonna be here after we're gone. The kids in the street have a point. The people making decisions about the world they are going to live in are going to be dead within 20 years. They'll just be entering their mid-30s.
Since I'm back in the game here, what's everybody's thoughts on this Swedish girl spouting off about Climate Change? She's very emotional but I personally think that's about all she's got. I'm very sceptical about people who've never held a job, don't have a family and have never paid taxes spouting off about her parents' generation 'destroying' the planet. It really smells scripted and phony to me...
Why does everyone think she is being controlled by someone?? They're the ones who are gonna be here after we're gone. The kids in the street have a point. The people making decisions about the world they are going to live in are going to be dead within 20 years. They'll just be entering their mid-30s.
She's being controlled because she's too f'ing young to know what she's talking about. Sorry, but I'd be more willing to listen to a 30 year old than a teenager. I call bullshit...
Edit: We were supposed to be dead 5 years ago. Hell, Jesus was supposed to have raptured me before y2k according to my parents...
I don't like nor dislike Greta. It must be nice to be a politically active teenager, and not be slandered by every news media outlet there is, some of which imply violence against you would be a good thing. Instead, if you have the right politics, you are a literal hero to all the same people.
The american right needs to develop a cogent argument about environmental issues, however. They almost never take it seriously. It's something to take serious. Not just climate change, but several issues like protecting and promoting biodiversity and not factory farming.
I don't like nor dislike Greta. It must be nice to be a politically active teenager, and not be slandered by every news media outlet there is, some of which imply violence against you would be a good thing. Instead, if you have the right politics, you are a literal hero to all the same people.
The american right needs to develop a cogent argument about environmental issues, however. They almost never take it seriously. It's something to take serious. Not just climate change, but several issues like protecting and promoting biodiversity and not factory farming.
I realize you're referring to the Covington kid here, but you ARE aware that she was literally called a "mentally ill Swedish girl" on Fox News last night and she was compared side by side to a Nazi propaganda poster, yes?? I saw a thread on Twitter with thousands of replies and likes in which the original tweet author said her speech made him want to "throw all his trash into the ocean", ostensibly to to spite her. Trump himself sent what was an obviously sarcastic tweet her way. This idea that the entire right-wing media apparatus hasn't made her their #1 target for the last 48 hours until this afternoon drowned it out is simply inaccurate. It was inescapable. And the fact that she is on the autism spectrum has literally been weaponized against her when in every way that makes her MORE impressive.
I don't like nor dislike Greta. It must be nice to be a politically active teenager, and not be slandered by every news media outlet there is, some of which imply violence against you would be a good thing. Instead, if you have the right politics, you are a literal hero to all the same people.
The right needs to develop a cogent argument about environmental issues, however. They almost never take it seriously. It's something to take serious.
I totally agree. I can see what's going on. Pesticides are devastating the insects and who knows what other lifeforms are affected as well. I'm old enough to remember when there were a Hell of a lot more ladybugs, honeybees, butterflies, bats and fireflies than there are now. What's missing is honesty about the sacrifices that need to be made. The trouble with having young people being the spokespersons is that they don't have the knowledge to back up their views yet. I want some honest debate and actual factual data on what needs to be done to solve these problems. What's totally dishonest is that ending the environmental crisis is very likely to be at the cost of human lives. At the very least, It will cost the lower and middle classes much more than the higher class folks. Admit it!
I don't like nor dislike Greta. It must be nice to be a politically active teenager, and not be slandered by every news media outlet there is, some of which imply violence against you would be a good thing. Instead, if you have the right politics, you are a literal hero to all the same people.
The american right needs to develop a cogent argument about environmental issues, however. They almost never take it seriously. It's something to take serious. Not just climate change, but several issues like protecting and promoting biodiversity and not factory farming.
I realize you're referring to the Covington kid here, but you ARE aware that she was literally called a "mentally ill Swedish girl" on Fox News last night and she was compared side by side to a Nazi propaganda poster, yes?? I saw a thread on Twitter with thousands of replies and likes in which the original tweet author said her speech made him want to "throw all his trash into the ocean", ostensibly to to spite her. Trump himself sent what was an obviously sarcastic tweet her way. This idea that the entire right-wing media apparatus hasn't made her their #1 target for the last 48 hours until this afternoon drowned it out is simply inaccurate. It was inescapable. And the fact that she is on the autism spectrum has literally been weaponized against her when in every way that makes her MORE impressive.
I don't give a shit about her background. She hasn't lived long enough to know what she's talking about. I doubt she's given one thought to the consequences of what she's espousing except what she's been fed by her family. There are real consequences to what the Green folks are proposing and there's no real debate about it. People are going to starve if they get their way, period. The only solution is science. Solutions need to start there. There are just too many Goddamned people on the planet to think that some 'Green New Deal' is going to solve the world's problems.
Given the recent history of efforts to tackle climate change I think it would be easier- if unproductive- to argue that older generations have lacked the resolution to tackle climate change, despite their supposed greater knowledge. Of course, this is not an issue that solely cuts across generational lines, it is an international one. The people who have suffered and will continue to suffer the most from climate change are the poorest. People who have lost their islands, had their relatively flimsy homes blown away by cyclones, etc. People who can't easily migrate away from problems, or when they do are vilified as migrants who have come to steal jobs....
In the wake of the UK Supreme Court's unanimous decision that Parliament was not legally prorogued it is highly amusing to me that some in the UK now want an American style selection process. In any normal time, there would be some government resignations around now... but we live in interesting times unfortunately.
I just read an article in an ACS (American Chemical Society) magazine that said that crop yields would be around 30-60% less without pesticides. How could we possibly feed everybody sans pesticides without some kind of scientific breakthrough?
I don't like nor dislike Greta. It must be nice to be a politically active teenager, and not be slandered by every news media outlet there is, some of which imply violence against you would be a good thing. Instead, if you have the right politics, you are a literal hero to all the same people.
The american right needs to develop a cogent argument about environmental issues, however. They almost never take it seriously. It's something to take serious. Not just climate change, but several issues like protecting and promoting biodiversity and not factory farming.
The reason the right pretends to not believe the science is not for any scientific reason. It's because the entire Republican party is corrupt.
They are literally paid to lie about climate science. Period.
They know it's true, they just don't care because they are paid to not care. There's no legitimate argument otherwise.
I don't like nor dislike Greta. It must be nice to be a politically active teenager, and not be slandered by every news media outlet there is, some of which imply violence against you would be a good thing. Instead, if you have the right politics, you are a literal hero to all the same people.
The american right needs to develop a cogent argument about environmental issues, however. They almost never take it seriously. It's something to take serious. Not just climate change, but several issues like protecting and promoting biodiversity and not factory farming.
I realize you're referring to the Covington kid here, but you ARE aware that she was literally called a "mentally ill Swedish girl" on Fox News last night and she was compared side by side to a Nazi propaganda poster, yes?? I saw a thread on Twitter with thousands of replies and likes in which the original tweet author said her speech made him want to "throw all his trash into the ocean", ostensibly to to spite her. Trump himself sent what was an obviously sarcastic tweet her way. This idea that the entire right-wing media apparatus hasn't made her their #1 target for the last 48 hours until this afternoon drowned it out is simply inaccurate. It was inescapable. And the fact that she is on the autism spectrum has literally been weaponized against her when in every way that makes her MORE impressive.
I don't give a shit about her background. She hasn't lived long enough to know what she's talking about. I doubt she's given one thought to the consequences of what she's espousing except what she's been fed by her family. There are real consequences to what the Green folks are proposing and there's no real debate about it. People are going to starve if they get their way, period. The only solution is science. Solutions need to start there. There are just too many Goddamned people on the planet to think that some 'Green New Deal' is going to solve the world's problems.
The solution is science and unfortunately the Republican party is totally corrupt and has been ignoring the science for fun and profit. There's a reason they take so much from coal and oil companies. They are paid to lie about the science and people keep voting these corrupt idiots into office.
At least the young lady is trying and not giving up because it's hard.
I don't like nor dislike Greta. It must be nice to be a politically active teenager, and not be slandered by every news media outlet there is, some of which imply violence against you would be a good thing. Instead, if you have the right politics, you are a literal hero to all the same people.
The american right needs to develop a cogent argument about environmental issues, however. They almost never take it seriously. It's something to take serious. Not just climate change, but several issues like protecting and promoting biodiversity and not factory farming.
The reason the right pretends to not believe the science is not for any scientific reason. It's because the entire Republican party is corrupt.
They are literally paid to lie about climate science. Period.
They know it's true, they just don't care because they are paid to not care. There's no legitimate argument otherwise.
The Democrats, on the other hand, are totally dishonest about what their policies will really cost the everyday person. I don't really blame them for lying since ultimately they have to win elections, but that doesn't change the fact that they're lying.
I don't like nor dislike Greta. It must be nice to be a politically active teenager, and not be slandered by every news media outlet there is, some of which imply violence against you would be a good thing. Instead, if you have the right politics, you are a literal hero to all the same people.
The american right needs to develop a cogent argument about environmental issues, however. They almost never take it seriously. It's something to take serious. Not just climate change, but several issues like protecting and promoting biodiversity and not factory farming.
I realize you're referring to the Covington kid here, but you ARE aware that she was literally called a "mentally ill Swedish girl" on Fox News last night and she was compared side by side to a Nazi propaganda poster, yes?? I saw a thread on Twitter with thousands of replies and likes in which the original tweet author said her speech made him want to "throw all his trash into the ocean", ostensibly to to spite her. Trump himself sent what was an obviously sarcastic tweet her way. This idea that the entire right-wing media apparatus hasn't made her their #1 target for the last 48 hours until this afternoon drowned it out is simply inaccurate. It was inescapable. And the fact that she is on the autism spectrum has literally been weaponized against her when in every way that makes her MORE impressive.
I don't give a shit about her background. She hasn't lived long enough to know what she's talking about. I doubt she's given one thought to the consequences of what she's espousing except what she's been fed by her family. There are real consequences to what the Green folks are proposing and there's no real debate about it. People are going to starve if they get their way, period. The only solution is science. Solutions need to start there. There are just too many Goddamned people on the planet to think that some 'Green New Deal' is going to solve the world's problems.
The solution is science and unfortunately the Republican party is totally corrupt and has been ignoring the science for fun and profit. There's a reason they take so much from coal and oil companies. They are paid to lie about the science and people keep voting these corrupt idiots into office.
At least the young lady is trying and not giving up because it's hard.
At least we can agree about the science part. Unfortunately, the anti-science bias doesn't adhere to party lines. For every anti-vaxer there's an equal idiot against GMO.
Edit: Forgot to mention the anti-nuclear morons. How many overblown nuclear hysterics has there have to be before people realize it's the future? I watched the Chernobyl mini-series and it was awesome! It also shows that the projections of casualties was completely overblown. Anybody remember how many people were supposed to die due to 3-Mile Island or even Fukishima? Hysteria at it's worst...
I mean, I don't really have anything to add. Maybe @WarChiefZeke can come in and try to defend Trump's blatant criminal activity like they always do...
I will ever remain the skeptic in the room, poking holes in stories that everyone thinks they have entirely figured out. However, I like to sit on these big stories that have little in the way of proof, and see how they play out. Sooner or later, everything comes to light. Having an opinion before that usually just makes the facts harder to accept, if they will be accepted at all.
I do think the willingness on Trump's part to release all the available documents says that their claims are, at least, overblown. In fact, had he not done anything, I would still hold this position until something indicated otherwise, because i've been burned enough times by media narratives to know better. I also think that doing it with the approval of the Ukrainian government lends it credibility. Trump trying to pressure them to just lie would just get him in hot water again, as assuming any of this is true, he's clearly not very subtle or intelligent.
"Blatant criminal activity" though? That's a bit premature. You don't even know what the contents are, just what you have been told third hand.
I agree with @jjstraka34 that the Democrats had to do this. Whether or not it works in their favor is up to the American people. The Democratic Party pretty much had to shit or get off the pot...
Of course, they had to back up their words at some point. Problem is, only people that really want impeachment are democrats. The majority of independents and republicans oppose it as well as registered voters in general.
People see it as dirty politics. I wonder why. They've just been waiting for an opportunity, any pretext will do. Their constantly hostile attitude is bad for society in the long run, not to mention their own perspective.
That poll is a few weeks old (and I think it helps explain why Pelosi has not moved on impeachment before). A poll published yesterday showed twice as many people in the US in favor of impeachment as opposing it - if the allegations about Ukraine are true. That I think is why Pelosi and many other Democrats now think impeachment is necessary.
I agree that at this stage it's hard to know what the real story is here. However, on multiple occasions in the past I've seen stories about Trump where his reaction to the story changes over time - in broad terms going from saying the story is false, to saying some aspects of the story are true but there was nothing wrong in what he did, to saying he did it but so would anyone else and it's no big deal. What's a bit unusual about this story is the speed with which it's progressing through those stages. That does seem at least suggestive to me that real evidence will be coming out sooner rather than later.
It's hard to know what to make of Trump saying he will publish a transcript of the call. The original whistleblower must have known they were putting themselves in a potentially serious situation, so they were obviously concerned. The Inspector General has been pushing the boundaries of his authority against his superiors because he believes the complaint is credible. Therefore I would expect that, at the least, there would be things in the call that could be interpreted very badly for the President. Publishing a true transcript would therefore seem unwise for him, but publishing a false one could be even more unwise given the possibility that a true transcript may well surface later. We'll see what appears, but I suspect that @jjstraka34 is right and the material published will be some sort of summary spun by Barr rather than a transcript.
I mentioned this quite awhile ago on this thread but thought I'd bring it up again. Who is actually answering these supposed polls? I don't know about you'all but I don't answer any phone call that I can't identify. Any phone poll has to be completely biased due to to the fact that most people don't answer unidentified phone calls. I've asked around work so I know I'm not in the minority here. Are random polls reliable anymore? I'm kind of sceptical of any phone poll that doesn't tell you how many people didn't answer (which is approximately 0 of them AFASIK).
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I have to agree with other posters that no, we really can't trust a transcript from the administration at this point. We've seen the Trump administration attempt to falsify official materials before, and I see no reason why Trump would consider editing, or even outright fabricating, a transcript to be beneath him. It's the sort of thing he would do if he thought it would protect him.
Moreover, there is likely to be important context that will be elided even with a tape transcript. It seems Congress already found evidence of them withholding money that had been previously agreed to be sent to Ukraine. Apparently that's how this whole investigation started from Congress's end. The quid pro quo is there even if it isn't in the actual transcript that gets released.
Personally, I think it's insane that people don't see the alarming problem here. *Even if* there was actual corruption between the company Hunter Biden was a board member on and the Ukrainian government -- it is absolutely out of bounds for a political leader to request a prosecutor investigate a specific individual. That alone would call into question the criminal investigation itself. Much worse obviously, is the US president asking a foreign government to do it, when the US government is supposed to defend its people first and foremost. While a US government obviously shouldn't override a proper criminal investigation, it needs to, akin to the job of a defense counsel, defend the interests of US citizens.
More aggravating, to me, is that the whole "scandal" is a shameless lie being coordinated by nearly all the powerful actors among the conservative movement in the US. The connection to Joe Biden is so tissue thin, it's ridiculous. A notoriously corrupt Ukranian prosecutor had, among many cases, one case involving a company where Biden's son sat on the board of directors? That prosecutor was fired due to immense internal and external pressure because he was seen almost universally as corrupt. In fact, the allegations of corruption against this prosecutor were sabotaging the investigation into this particular company. And this series of event somehow indicts Joe Biden? It's a degree of lying that just continues to astonish me.
Here's the synopsis of Trump's transcript. Thought I'd save you all some time...
Moreover, why is the White House releasing (supposedly) the whistleblower report?? They shouldn't have it in the first place. Meanwhile, it may be Giuliani who gets thrown under the bus. The man who made his name prosecuting the mafia ends up, in the end, acting in an indistinguishable way from the people he put in prison:
How noble.
Typical Trump - do something wrong and offer to "fix" it.
I will ever remain the skeptic in the room, poking holes in stories that everyone thinks they have entirely figured out. However, I like to sit on these big stories that have little in the way of proof, and see how they play out. Sooner or later, everything comes to light. Having an opinion before that usually just makes the facts harder to accept, if they will be accepted at all.
I do think the willingness on Trump's part to release all the available documents says that their claims are, at least, overblown. In fact, had he not done anything, I would still hold this position until something indicated otherwise, because i've been burned enough times by media narratives to know better. I also think that doing it with the approval of the Ukrainian government lends it credibility. Trump trying to pressure them to just lie would just get him in hot water again, as assuming any of this is true, he's clearly not very subtle or intelligent.
"Blatant criminal activity" though? That's a bit premature. You don't even know what the contents are, just what you have been told third hand.
I agree with @jjstraka34 that the Democrats had to do this. Whether or not it works in their favor is up to the American people. The Democratic Party pretty much had to shit or get off the pot...
Of course, they had to back up their words at some point. Problem is, only people that really want impeachment are democrats. The majority of independents and republicans oppose it as well as registered voters in general.
People see it as dirty politics. I wonder why. They've just been waiting for an opportunity, any pretext will do. Their constantly hostile attitude is bad for society in the long run, not to mention their own perspective.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/08/22/poll-majority-americans-dont-want-donald-trump-impeached/2090155001/
I know where you stand on this but I really think this is a big risk by the Democrats. This could turn out to be a decades long gamble. I, for one, am reaching for my popcorn. I'm no fan of Trump but I know how folks in his corner think. I also know that the Democrats are not as popular as they think they are...
This has nothing to do with popularity. Also, in regards to their so-called eagerness to comply with requests. The "transcript" will magically become "notes" and they will attempt to issue a redacted version of the whistleblower complaint, and that everything they said this afternoon/evening was smoke and mirrors.
Why does everyone think she is being controlled by someone?? They're the ones who are gonna be here after we're gone. The kids in the street have a point. The people making decisions about the world they are going to live in are going to be dead within 20 years. They'll just be entering their mid-30s.
She's being controlled because she's too f'ing young to know what she's talking about. Sorry, but I'd be more willing to listen to a 30 year old than a teenager. I call bullshit...
Edit: We were supposed to be dead 5 years ago. Hell, Jesus was supposed to have raptured me before y2k according to my parents...
The american right needs to develop a cogent argument about environmental issues, however. They almost never take it seriously. It's something to take serious. Not just climate change, but several issues like protecting and promoting biodiversity and not factory farming.
I realize you're referring to the Covington kid here, but you ARE aware that she was literally called a "mentally ill Swedish girl" on Fox News last night and she was compared side by side to a Nazi propaganda poster, yes?? I saw a thread on Twitter with thousands of replies and likes in which the original tweet author said her speech made him want to "throw all his trash into the ocean", ostensibly to to spite her. Trump himself sent what was an obviously sarcastic tweet her way. This idea that the entire right-wing media apparatus hasn't made her their #1 target for the last 48 hours until this afternoon drowned it out is simply inaccurate. It was inescapable. And the fact that she is on the autism spectrum has literally been weaponized against her when in every way that makes her MORE impressive.
I totally agree. I can see what's going on. Pesticides are devastating the insects and who knows what other lifeforms are affected as well. I'm old enough to remember when there were a Hell of a lot more ladybugs, honeybees, butterflies, bats and fireflies than there are now. What's missing is honesty about the sacrifices that need to be made. The trouble with having young people being the spokespersons is that they don't have the knowledge to back up their views yet. I want some honest debate and actual factual data on what needs to be done to solve these problems. What's totally dishonest is that ending the environmental crisis is very likely to be at the cost of human lives. At the very least, It will cost the lower and middle classes much more than the higher class folks. Admit it!
I don't give a shit about her background. She hasn't lived long enough to know what she's talking about. I doubt she's given one thought to the consequences of what she's espousing except what she's been fed by her family. There are real consequences to what the Green folks are proposing and there's no real debate about it. People are going to starve if they get their way, period. The only solution is science. Solutions need to start there. There are just too many Goddamned people on the planet to think that some 'Green New Deal' is going to solve the world's problems.
In the wake of the UK Supreme Court's unanimous decision that Parliament was not legally prorogued it is highly amusing to me that some in the UK now want an American style selection process. In any normal time, there would be some government resignations around now... but we live in interesting times unfortunately.
The reason the right pretends to not believe the science is not for any scientific reason. It's because the entire Republican party is corrupt.
They are literally paid to lie about climate science. Period.
They know it's true, they just don't care because they are paid to not care. There's no legitimate argument otherwise.
The solution is science and unfortunately the Republican party is totally corrupt and has been ignoring the science for fun and profit. There's a reason they take so much from coal and oil companies. They are paid to lie about the science and people keep voting these corrupt idiots into office.
At least the young lady is trying and not giving up because it's hard.
The Democrats, on the other hand, are totally dishonest about what their policies will really cost the everyday person. I don't really blame them for lying since ultimately they have to win elections, but that doesn't change the fact that they're lying.
At least we can agree about the science part. Unfortunately, the anti-science bias doesn't adhere to party lines. For every anti-vaxer there's an equal idiot against GMO.
Edit: Forgot to mention the anti-nuclear morons. How many overblown nuclear hysterics has there have to be before people realize it's the future? I watched the Chernobyl mini-series and it was awesome! It also shows that the projections of casualties was completely overblown. Anybody remember how many people were supposed to die due to 3-Mile Island or even Fukishima? Hysteria at it's worst...
That poll is a few weeks old (and I think it helps explain why Pelosi has not moved on impeachment before). A poll published yesterday showed twice as many people in the US in favor of impeachment as opposing it - if the allegations about Ukraine are true. That I think is why Pelosi and many other Democrats now think impeachment is necessary.
I agree that at this stage it's hard to know what the real story is here. However, on multiple occasions in the past I've seen stories about Trump where his reaction to the story changes over time - in broad terms going from saying the story is false, to saying some aspects of the story are true but there was nothing wrong in what he did, to saying he did it but so would anyone else and it's no big deal. What's a bit unusual about this story is the speed with which it's progressing through those stages. That does seem at least suggestive to me that real evidence will be coming out sooner rather than later.
It's hard to know what to make of Trump saying he will publish a transcript of the call. The original whistleblower must have known they were putting themselves in a potentially serious situation, so they were obviously concerned. The Inspector General has been pushing the boundaries of his authority against his superiors because he believes the complaint is credible. Therefore I would expect that, at the least, there would be things in the call that could be interpreted very badly for the President. Publishing a true transcript would therefore seem unwise for him, but publishing a false one could be even more unwise given the possibility that a true transcript may well surface later. We'll see what appears, but I suspect that @jjstraka34 is right and the material published will be some sort of summary spun by Barr rather than a transcript.