Does everyone fail to see that if Impeachment proceeds then everything will come out?
This all started back when the Obama admin. and NATO forces, with the help of a Nationalist Nazi party, overthrew the legitimate government of a sovereign country (Ukraine). Then the placing of people ( Biden's son along with others) into positions of power or luxury that had already been promised once the overthrow was complete.
This is a HUGE rabbit hole that the DNC jumped into. Claiming to smear a political candidate? Even CNN and MSNBC are worried about this. Stop looking at this with Orange Man Bad glasses. This shit, if it goes the distance, will bring to light what really happened in the Ukraine and which Dems/Reps (and UN/NATO members) profited from this.
Does everyone fail to see that if Impeachment proceeds then everything will come out?
This all started back when the Obama admin. and NATO forces, with the help of a Nationalist Nazi party, overthrew the legitimate government of a sovereign country (Ukraine). Then the placing of people ( Biden's son along with others) into positions of power or luxury that had already been promised once the overthrow was complete.
This is a HUGE rabbit hole that the DNC jumped into. Claiming to smear a political candidate? Even CNN and MSNBC are worried about this. Stop looking at this with Orange Man Bad glasses. This shit, if it goes the distance, will bring to light what really happened in the Ukraine and which Dems/Reps (and UN/NATO members) profited from this.
If there is something to come out then it should do so. There doesn't seem to be much to the stories about Hunter Biden, but I agree there was other DNC involvement in the country that bears investigation.
I assume your reference to the overthrow of the legitimate government is talking about the events in 2014 when the then President, Yanukovych, was displaced. From the outside the reasons for that appeared to be:
1) that Yanukovych supported closer ties with Russia, while the majority of the people and Parliament of Ukraine wanted closer ties with the EU.
2) significant amendments were made in 2010 (shortly after Yanukovych was appointed) to the Ukrainian constitution agreed in 2004 and those had proved unpopular.
A series of protests were escalating in February 2014 and Putin advised Yanukovych to crack down on the protesters. Hours after Russia paid over $2bn to Ukraine the crackdown started. Within a day the Internal Affairs Minister escalated the crackdown by authorizing the use of live ammunition against protesters and there were dozens of deaths as a result. Within another day an impeachment bill against the President was introduced in Parliament and Yanukovych fled rather than facing that process. The next day Parliament voted 328-0 in favor of impeachment and a new President was appointed. Although a significant number of MPs boycotted the impeachment decision, the 328 who voted constituted 73% of the 450 total so it's difficult to portray that as a minority coup by undemocratic forces.
It doesn't look to me as though the idea of a NATO conspiracy to overthrow the Ukrainian government has any significant substance. However, whether or not that is the case I would support more transparency about what happened.
So, it turns out that Trump's second excuse for withholding the aide is total bullshit. Why did he go to it?? Because blaming Europe when he's in a bind is just something he instinctively does. It's no different than him talking about Hillary's emails. So, scratch this one off completely (not that anyone needed this to know it was false):
As for what is likely at the heart of the whistleblower complaint that we didn't already know, it appears it deals with how the information dealing with Ukraine was treated stored. From the beginning, it was moved from where normal conversations were stored and put in what essentially amounts to a "secret" one. This not only raises the question of accuracy (and thank you @Grond0 for coming around) but it also demonstrates consciousness of guilt. And it would have taken an entire cadre of people to facilitate it. As soon as this campaign started taking place, they tried to hide it. If it was above board, why in the world would that be neccessary??
Edit: we don't have to speculate anymore, it's out. This is so bad. They knew. Everyone around him knew:
I've now read the whole thing. Trump laid the groundwork with his mafia-like language and sent Giuliani to flesh out the details in person, almost certainly BECAUSE he was accountable to no oversight and answered only to Trump. If you think all these flashpoints remain a coincidence, I suggest getting a new job as a contortionist.
They then tried to cover it up AGAIN by burying this complaint illegally. William fucking Barr attempted to make sure the American people never had this information. Trump must go. Barr must go. And Giuliani belongs in prison. Mueller couldn't manage to catch them red-handed, for a multitude of reasons. Now they have been. They tried to do it AGAIN the moment they thought the heat was off. Nothing but a nest of traitors.
The Democrats had NO choice given what we now know. If this isn't impeachable, we might as well not have a Constitution. They did this to themselves with their bottomless hubris and corruption. They need to reap what they've sown.
DNI Macguire is the first Trump Administration witness I have seen go before Congress and treat the committee with any respect whatsoever. He knows how serious this is and wants no part in it. He was completely wrong to bring the complaint to the DoJ and Trump and not turn it over to Congress, but he is doing the right thing now and I can't help but feel genuinely sorry for him watching his testimony. The institutional pressure against him coming from Trump and Barr was likely immense. I'm not gonna place this at his feet. Barr is the black hat.
Meanwhile, in the UK, it appears Boris Johnson's sister believes he is losing his bearings because he is coming under intense pressure from billionaires who want to short the pound and British economy in a No Deal Brexit. I guess late September 2019 is when all the chickens come home to roost.
Meanwhile, in the UK, it appears Boris Johnson's sister believes he is losing his bearings because he is coming under intense pressure from billionaires who want to short the pound and British economy in a No Deal Brexit. I guess late September 2019 is when all the chickens come home to roost.
That family is indicative of how Brexit has upset traditional party loyalties - all the Johnson children were brought up to be Conservative (their father was a Conservative MEP), but have not all stayed that way.
Boris has had a love hate relationship with Europe for a long time, but it was only just before the referendum that he decided to go with the hate element. I think his expressed enthusiasm for Brexit since then is partly because so many long-standing Brexiteers have been suspicious of his late conversion to the cause.
Rachel is a strong advocate for remain and joined the Liberal Democrats after the referendum to fight against that decision. In April this year she switched to Change UK in the hope that would give a better platform, but seems to be regretting that decision as Change UK appear to be going nowhere (while the Lib Dems have made gains as a result of positioning themselves as the strongest advocate for remain).
Jo has been a minister in several governments, but has resigned twice in protest over the handling of Brexit. He wants another referendum, including an option to remain, and found he could not remain as a minister earlier this month given his brother's willingness to embrace a no-deal Brexit. His disillusionment is sufficient that he's said that, in addition to having resigned as a minister, he will not stand again for the Conservatives at the next election.
This whistleblower needs round the clock protection. This is why Schiff took such pains with the DNI this morning to make sure he was committed to doing so.
- President Trump personally intervened to withhold millions in aide that had been allocated by Congress for Ukranian defense. This money was only released to Ukraine the day AFTER Adam Schiff formally requested the whistleblower complaint.
- Shortly after withholding the funds, he made a phone call to the newly elected Ukranian President and in front of multiple witnesses demanded (saying ""I would like you to do us a favor") that he investigate Joe Biden and the hacked DNC server. The FBI had already seen this server but Trump was hoping that notoriously corrupt Ukranain investigators could create something there apparently.
- Trump said that Zelinski should work with Guilliani, his personal lawyer outside the official channels, and Barr, the head of the Justice Department on this. The Ukranian President assured Trump that he had people that Trump would like and would get right on it. At the end of the call, Trump said I think things will look good for your economy in the future. This demand for help is not the business of the United States, it's his personal business. It is an attempt to gain something for his election campaign from a foreign power which is illegal. If we find out that there were explicit promises made that would be an additional crime on top of it.
- This conversation was not classified and stored as per routine on the computer system which such transcripts are typically stored for coordination, finalization, and distribution to Cabinet-level officials. However in this case, White House lawyers “directed” this conversation be moved to a beyond top secret level classified standalone computer system. This is unprecedented - there was no classified information discussed - and indiciates a coverup.
- The acting DNI took the whistleblower complaint to the Justice department, headed by William Barr who is involved in these incidents. The Justice Department told the acting head of the DNI to illegally withhold the complaint. Which he then did.
And there's more outside the transcript and complaint such as Trump telling George Stephanopolous while he was pursuing dirt on Joe Biden through Ukraine that he would totally accept help from a foreign government to meddle in 2020. There's Rudy Guilliani saying "we're meddling in an investigation which we are totally allowed to do" and other stuff like that.
Even putting aside Trump's shifting explanations for withholding U.S. aid for Ukraine, the attempt to hide the record in a special computer system is a fairly obvious sign of corrupt intent here. Immediately after this conversation took place, the Trump administration tried to hide it from as many officials as possible, and I have great difficulty imagining that this unexplained breach of protocol was sheer coincidence.
Even putting aside Trump's shifting explanations for withholding U.S. aid for Ukraine, the attempt to hide the record in a special computer system is a fairly obvious sign of corrupt intent here. Immediately after this conversation took place, the Trump administration tried to hide it from as many officials as possible, and I have great difficulty imagining that this unexplained breach of protocol was sheer coincidence.
There is a faction among the left who wants this investigation to be as sprawling as possible. I have NO doubt there are numerous other calls or interactions that have disappeared down the same hole as this one did. But I believe the Democrats need to be laser-focused on this issue specifically. It's not hard to understand. Bribery, extortion, secret server, cover-up. Those are things the public can digest. The Mueller Report failed to have the impact it should have because it was so sprawling and byzantine. This isn't. This can be understood by anyone. There was wrongdoing, and then they attempted to cover it up. And again, the Administration isn't even going to BOTHER saying it didn't happen. Their only defense is going to be to go after the people who exposed it and say it was all perfectly fine. This is not a case where the cover-up is worse than the crime (and it really wasn't in Watergate either to be perfectly honest). Both are equally egregious. The one difference being that Nixon did not give the order to break into the Democratic offices at the hotel. He absolutely set-up a White House apparatus that LED to it happening, but he did not have any direct involvement until he was told and decided to pay off the burglars. This is completely different. Trump is here at the ground floor and every point thereafter. This makes Nixon look like a boy-scout.
But you can bank on this. TONS of people knew what was going on, and the biggest non-Trump players include everyone from the Attorney General to the Secretary of State to the Vice President himself. Someone or multiple people are not going to be willing to go down with this ship. We already saw that the acting DNI this morning was CLEARLY not willing to do so. In the end, Trumps capos and soldiers are going to squeal to save themselves. Only Trump is immune to prosecution. No one else enjoys that luxury.
I will also say I find it extremely irresponsible of the New York Times to publish a roadmap to who this whistleblower is mere minutes after Trump's remarks about dealing with "spies". He will be before Congress soon enough, and there is legitimate reason to be concerned about this person's safety.
Even putting aside Trump's shifting explanations for withholding U.S. aid for Ukraine, the attempt to hide the record in a special computer system is a fairly obvious sign of corrupt intent here. Immediately after this conversation took place, the Trump administration tried to hide it from as many officials as possible, and I have great difficulty imagining that this unexplained breach of protocol was sheer coincidence.
Allegedly, it isn’t the only conversation given this treatment. Who allowed it to be codeworded needs to be shown the door if not a cell.
When I asked him about this specifically, Giuliani nearly began shouting into the telephone. “The State Department is concerned about my activities? I gotta believe [the whistle-blower] is totally out of the loop, or just a liar,” he said.
Giuliani went on to say that State Department officials had asked for his assistance. “If they were so concerned about my activities, why did they ask for my help? Why did they send me a bunch of friendly text messages reaching out for my help, thanking me for my help?” Giuliani said he planned to make sure these “friendly text messages” came out “in a longer story.”
So I got my popcorn ready and watching the fan begin to rapidly spin...
My folks are coming over for the weekend. I can't wait to hear all about the Deep State and Pizzagate. I wonder who they'll say the whistleblower is? Could it be? I don't know, could be, maybe, possibly...
My folks are coming over for the weekend. I can't wait to hear all about the Deep State and Pizzagate. I wonder who they'll say the whistleblower is? Could it be? I don't know, could be, maybe, possibly...
SATAN???
They're already saying the whistleblower works for the CIA. So deepstate aka 'a government employee with duties to protect Americans interests from hostile foreigners' to the rest of us.
Gotta love the whole defense of "the crime is not the crime, the real crime is not hiding the crime!". These type people call themselves Patriots lol.
My folks are coming over for the weekend. I can't wait to hear all about the Deep State and Pizzagate. I wonder who they'll say the whistleblower is? Could it be? I don't know, could be, maybe, possibly...
SATAN???
Like I said, the NYT Times said it was a "CIA Agent temporarily assigned to the White House". So, it makes sense it wasn't a Trump loyalist. And yes, it will feed their Deep State paranoia. I still say it was incredibly irresponsible of the Times to publish that information at this juncture.
Like I said, the NYT Times said it was a "CIA Agent temporarily assigned to the White House". So, it makes sense it wasn't a Trump loyalist. And yes, it will feed their Deep State paranoia. I still say it was incredibly irresponsible of the Times to publish that information at this juncture.
I saw an insightful twitter comment that essentially said:
If you go through the proper whistleblower channels (as this person seems to have done), journalists will dig mercilessly to uncover your identity.
If you had leaked the information (which is the inappropriate route) to a journalist, they would defend you as their source as much as possible.
It's a weird world we live in.
Random other observation: It is **super** important that the Democrats did not attempt impeachment over Russia, as many people wanted. If the Democrats had done so, it would have largely fizzled out (in the way that it has already done), and the public wouldnt trust the democrats to impeach Trump on something that actually demonstrates a clear abuse of power, as Whistlegate seems like it has strong potential to do.
Like I said, the NYT Times said it was a "CIA Agent temporarily assigned to the White House". So, it makes sense it wasn't a Trump loyalist. And yes, it will feed their Deep State paranoia. I still say it was incredibly irresponsible of the Times to publish that information at this juncture.
I saw an insightful twitter comment that essentially said:
If you go through the proper whistleblower channels (as this person seems to have done), journalists will dig mercilessly to uncover your identity.
If you had leaked the information (which is the inappropriate route) to a journalist, they would defend you as their source as much as possible.
It's a weird world we live in.
Random other observation: It is **super** important that the Democrats did not attempt impeachment over Russia, as many people wanted. If the Democrats had done so, it would have largely fizzled out (in the way that it has already done), and the public wouldnt trust the democrats to impeach Trump on something that actually demonstrates a clear abuse of power, as Whistlegate seems like it has strong potential to do.
And even if you go through the correct channels as your patriotic duty requires, Fox News (state TV) and right wing media WILL lie about you.
And millions of people will believe these alternative facts. The elderly and others that watch this crap and uncritically will get all frothy in the mouth over the leaker! instead of the guy who's conspiring, again, with a foreign power to interfere in US elections. This time there's no excuse of ignorance either because there's a clear attempted coverup by moving the transcript to the super duper top secret computer system when there's nothing classified discussed.
Like I said, the NYT Times said it was a "CIA Agent temporarily assigned to the White House". So, it makes sense it wasn't a Trump loyalist. And yes, it will feed their Deep State paranoia. I still say it was incredibly irresponsible of the Times to publish that information at this juncture.
I saw an insightful twitter comment that essentially said:
If you go through the proper whistleblower channels (as this person seems to have done), journalists will dig mercilessly to uncover your identity.
If you had leaked the information (which is the inappropriate route) to a journalist, they would defend you as their source as much as possible.
It's a weird world we live in.
Random other observation: It is **super** important that the Democrats did not attempt impeachment over Russia, as many people wanted. If the Democrats had done so, it would have largely fizzled out (in the way that it has already done), and the public wouldnt trust the democrats to impeach Trump on something that actually demonstrates a clear abuse of power, as Whistlegate seems like it has strong potential to do.
Alot of this isn't so much a sequel as a continuation. Part of what Giuliani was trying to do in Ukraine was dig up information that could justify a pardon of Manafort. Much of this is Trump's obsession on "vindicating" himself even though for various reasons he essentially "won" the round with Mueller despite what it revealed about him. This basically happened the MOMENT Mueller finished testifying, which doesn't strike me as insignificant.
Which brings me to any liberal hold-outs on impeachment at this point. What is the alternative?? For one thing, if you let him keep going down this path, you are basically guaranteeing the election in 2020 will be manipulated again. But for another thing, the Democrats were put in office in 2018 to check Trump. To ignore this would make them seem so feckless and weak that you'd be risking abandonment by at least enough people to swing the election to Trump again. I have said this for months, and I'll continue to say it. This isn't a political obligation, it's a moral and ethical one. Not moving forward based on this information would be tantamount to approving of it. And then where does it end?? It also puts VERY vulnerable Republican Senators up for re-election in 2020 on the record (assuming McConnell even allows the mandated trial when the time comes). Corey Gardner and Susan Collins are NOT going to survive voting to let Trump off the hook. I still see absolutely no way of getting 20 Republicans on board in the Senate. I don't know where those numbers would come from. Five?? Maybe. Ten?? A pipe-dream, but possible. But the 20 needed?? I can't get there.
The kind of defenses the right-wing media apparatus are coming up with today are astoundingly stupid. On Hugh Hewitt's radio show, he and Tom Cotton were pushing some story about Hunter Biden dodging a paternity test in Arkansas. Moreover, I realize Hunter Biden served on this board, but has anyone on the right even bothered to EXPLAIN exactly what his criminal conduct was supposed to have been?? They haven't even come up with prevailing theory, which, incidentally, is exactly what the situation was with Hillary's emails. Everyone would just say "emails" and that was supposed to be the crime in and of itself. As far as I can tell, all they keep saying over there is that Hunter Biden served on the board of an energy company. And that is essentially where it stops. There isn't even any effort being put into explaining what the alleged conduct was. It's completely amorphous. On FOX News tonight, even though we have NO idea who the whistleblower is, they seem completely convinced he is tied to George Soros. He's the fucking Dr. Claw of conservative media.
And, as @smeagolheart said. There is a HUGE difference between leaking and what this whistleblower did. Edward Snowden leaked. Chelsea Manning leaked. This person went through the proper channels, even though at some level he MUST have known it could end up getting squashed (and if the Democrats hadn't taken the House last year, we would have never heard anything about it). But the right-wing attacking CIA officers is nothing new. They outed an undercover one in the Bush Administration because her husband wrote an op-ed telling the truth about their lies about yellow cake in Niger. Their faux-patriotism always reveals itself when the chips are down.
I dont necessarily disagree with you on any particular point. I do think that had we rushed to impeachment as soon as some people in the party wanted us to, we probably wouldnt have the political viability of impeachment now. That's mostly my only point.
I think in some respects, it shows political wisdom from Pelosi. I dont think she foresaw that other impeachable offenses would pop up along the way, but it was a political reading of the tea-leaves in which she is now satisfying a much larger part of her base (as well as far more independents).
The difference between this and Russia seems be 3 fold:
A - It's happening in real time (So Trump cannot sit back and lob conspiracy grenades and try to de-legitimize the process for months and months before it happens)
B - Trump is the sitting president of the United States, and not a private citizen merely running for president.
C - He's already attached himself personally to the scandal by admitted he sought foreign help in discrediting a political rival.
Those three things make impeachment a possibility.
I dont necessarily disagree with you on any particular point. I do think that had we rushed to impeachment as soon as some people in the party wanted us to, we probably wouldnt have the political viability of impeachment now. That's mostly my only point.
I think in some respects, it shows political wisdom from Pelosi. I dont think she foresaw that other impeachable offenses would pop up along the way, but it was a political reading of the tea-leaves in which she is now satisfying a much larger part of her base (as well as far more independents).
The difference between this and Russia seems be 3 fold:
A - It's happening in real time (So Trump cannot sit back and lob conspiracy grenades and try to de-legitimize the process for months and months before it happens)
B - Trump is the sitting president of the United States, and not a private citizen merely running for president.
C - He's already attached himself personally to the scandal by admitted he sought foreign help in discrediting a political rival.
Those three things make impeachment a possibility.
What turned the tide was seven freshman Democrats (mostly from districts Trump carried) with either intelligence community or military experience going to her and essentially saying "we don't care what this does to us, we took an oath then and we took one now, we'll defend ourselves on the merits". These were the exact people she was trying to protect. When they went to her with this, she then gave the go-ahead for their op-ed in the Washington Post. Once that happened, it gave cover for everyone else.
I dont necessarily disagree with you on any particular point. I do think that had we rushed to impeachment as soon as some people in the party wanted us to, we probably wouldnt have the political viability of impeachment now. That's mostly my only point.
I think in some respects, it shows political wisdom from Pelosi. I dont think she foresaw that other impeachable offenses would pop up along the way, but it was a political reading of the tea-leaves in which she is now satisfying a much larger part of her base (as well as far more independents).
The difference between this and Russia seems be 3 fold:
A - It's happening in real time (So Trump cannot sit back and lob conspiracy grenades and try to de-legitimize the process for months and months before it happens)
B - Trump is the sitting president of the United States, and not a private citizen merely running for president.
C - He's already attached himself personally to the scandal by admitted he sought foreign help in discrediting a political rival.
Those three things make impeachment a possibility.
I think another major difference relates to the attempts to hide what happened. Part of the reason that Trump escaped too much damage from Mueller was that he was himself the only obvious target for an obstruction investigation. He gave other people orders to aid the obstruction, but the worst of those proposed actions (like firing Mueller) were refused. Even though I think it undermined the justice system, that allowed Trump to slide on the basis that he's above the law.
In this case there are multiple targets to go after, rather than just Trump. Hiding the original transcript is a big tip-off, but so is fabricating the note of the conversation. The first version of that note was produced on 3rd September, which is obviously far too late to be a genuine desire to minute the conversation. Instead it reflects a desire to sanitize the true record in case the administration were forced to release more information (as they now have done). I imagine the reason it is written in the style of a conversation is that it consists of wording taken from the original transcript and stitched together in an effort to minimize the apparent problem.
The note was then updated on 24th September. The reason given for that was to delete references to classified material, but the real reason is undoubtedly someone looking at the note with fresh eyes ahead of publication and saying "that looks bad".
I imagine that we will ultimately get to see all the versions of the conversation - the original transcript, the 3rd September version, the 24th September version and any others that have been put together but not yet published. I think that will be compelling evidence of a conspiracy and, even if Trump's immunity holds up, that won't be true for others. The only defense/mitigation they will be able to offer was they were only following orders - so I expect over time to see lots of fingers pointed at Trump.
Speaking of no immunity for others, look, Rudy Giuliani has always been absolutely horrible (yes, even when he was "America's Mayor") but he has turned into nothing but a demented freak at this point. What the ever-loving hell does this guy think he is doing?? He's running his mouth on TV putting the entire State Department smack dab in the middle of this, and every time he opens his mouth he is opening up another facet of the investigation. The fact that Trump made this addled fool his point man on this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt he deserves everything that is coming at him. These are two peas in a pod, two horrible men who have declining cognitive functions with nothing left inside to sustain them but acid and bile.
I've got serious doubts about the transcript (that is not a transcript but it says it's a memo). It was what 4 pages? It says the phone call was 30 minutes. A lot was obviously left out. There's more that was hidden but even what was released is damning enough. This stinks just like the Barr letter which was released and mischaracterized the mueller report
Btw there is another whistleblower. There has been but the House Ways and Means have been sitting on it.
A little-noticed court filing from August contains a shocking allegation made by a disgruntled Internal Revenue Service (IRS) employee: that President Trump attempted to interfere with some aspect of the agency’s mandatory presidential audit system.
That court filing includes a letter authored by House Ways and Means Chairman Richard Neal (D-Mass.) which is addressed to Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin and describes the situation thusly:
On July 29, 2019, the Committee received an unsolicited communication from a Federal employee setting forth credible allegations of “evidence of possible misconduct”-specifically, potential “inappropriate efforts to influence” the mandatory audit program.
I've got serious doubts about the transcript (that is not a transcript but it says it's a memo). It was what 4 pages? It says the phone call was 30 minutes. A lot was obviously left out. There's more that was hidden but even what was released is damning enough. This stinks just like the Barr letter which was released and mischaracterized the mueller report
Btw there is another whistleblower. There has been but the House Ways and Means have been sitting on it.
A little-noticed court filing from August contains a shocking allegation made by a disgruntled Internal Revenue Service (IRS) employee: that President Trump attempted to interfere with some aspect of the agency’s mandatory presidential audit system.
That court filing includes a letter authored by House Ways and Means Chairman Richard Neal (D-Mass.) which is addressed to Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin and describes the situation thusly:
On July 29, 2019, the Committee received an unsolicited communication from a Federal employee setting forth credible allegations of “evidence of possible misconduct”-specifically, potential “inappropriate efforts to influence” the mandatory audit program.
If the impeachment inquiry were to be focused on everything this guy did, it would take til 2022 to investigate and litigate. There aren't enough hours in the day to document all his corruption.
The floodgates are opening. Trump's discussions with Putin and the Saudis were disappeared down the same system. He's a stone-cold traitor. They can't stop this now. Everyone who knows anything is going to try to save themselves. And if Trump should be worried about one thing tonight, it's how relatively silent Mitch McConnell has been in his defense. The problem Republicans have now is they have NO idea where the bottom of this is:
@jjstraka34: I suppose I should have expected that. Naturally the administration would hide many different conversations using the same method. And of course it would be Trump-Putin conversations that he would hide.
@jjstraka34: I suppose I should have expected that. Naturally the administration would hide many different conversations using the same method. And of course it would be Trump-Putin conversations that he would hide.
The speed this is developing at is unreal. It's like watching Watergate on fast forward. Most lucrative profession in America tonight?? A defense lawyer in DC.
Comments
Does everyone fail to see that if Impeachment proceeds then everything will come out?
This all started back when the Obama admin. and NATO forces, with the help of a Nationalist Nazi party, overthrew the legitimate government of a sovereign country (Ukraine). Then the placing of people ( Biden's son along with others) into positions of power or luxury that had already been promised once the overthrow was complete.
This is a HUGE rabbit hole that the DNC jumped into. Claiming to smear a political candidate? Even CNN and MSNBC are worried about this. Stop looking at this with Orange Man Bad glasses. This shit, if it goes the distance, will bring to light what really happened in the Ukraine and which Dems/Reps (and UN/NATO members) profited from this.
And don't ever let the American Media Machine make you forget about Jeffrey Epstein.
If there is something to come out then it should do so. There doesn't seem to be much to the stories about Hunter Biden, but I agree there was other DNC involvement in the country that bears investigation.
I assume your reference to the overthrow of the legitimate government is talking about the events in 2014 when the then President, Yanukovych, was displaced. From the outside the reasons for that appeared to be:
1) that Yanukovych supported closer ties with Russia, while the majority of the people and Parliament of Ukraine wanted closer ties with the EU.
2) significant amendments were made in 2010 (shortly after Yanukovych was appointed) to the Ukrainian constitution agreed in 2004 and those had proved unpopular.
A series of protests were escalating in February 2014 and Putin advised Yanukovych to crack down on the protesters. Hours after Russia paid over $2bn to Ukraine the crackdown started. Within a day the Internal Affairs Minister escalated the crackdown by authorizing the use of live ammunition against protesters and there were dozens of deaths as a result. Within another day an impeachment bill against the President was introduced in Parliament and Yanukovych fled rather than facing that process. The next day Parliament voted 328-0 in favor of impeachment and a new President was appointed. Although a significant number of MPs boycotted the impeachment decision, the 328 who voted constituted 73% of the 450 total so it's difficult to portray that as a minority coup by undemocratic forces.
It doesn't look to me as though the idea of a NATO conspiracy to overthrow the Ukrainian government has any significant substance. However, whether or not that is the case I would support more transparency about what happened.
As for what is likely at the heart of the whistleblower complaint that we didn't already know, it appears it deals with how the information dealing with Ukraine was treated stored. From the beginning, it was moved from where normal conversations were stored and put in what essentially amounts to a "secret" one. This not only raises the question of accuracy (and thank you @Grond0 for coming around) but it also demonstrates consciousness of guilt. And it would have taken an entire cadre of people to facilitate it. As soon as this campaign started taking place, they tried to hide it. If it was above board, why in the world would that be neccessary??
Edit: we don't have to speculate anymore, it's out. This is so bad. They knew. Everyone around him knew:
I've now read the whole thing. Trump laid the groundwork with his mafia-like language and sent Giuliani to flesh out the details in person, almost certainly BECAUSE he was accountable to no oversight and answered only to Trump. If you think all these flashpoints remain a coincidence, I suggest getting a new job as a contortionist.
They then tried to cover it up AGAIN by burying this complaint illegally. William fucking Barr attempted to make sure the American people never had this information. Trump must go. Barr must go. And Giuliani belongs in prison. Mueller couldn't manage to catch them red-handed, for a multitude of reasons. Now they have been. They tried to do it AGAIN the moment they thought the heat was off. Nothing but a nest of traitors.
The Democrats had NO choice given what we now know. If this isn't impeachable, we might as well not have a Constitution. They did this to themselves with their bottomless hubris and corruption. They need to reap what they've sown.
DNI Macguire is the first Trump Administration witness I have seen go before Congress and treat the committee with any respect whatsoever. He knows how serious this is and wants no part in it. He was completely wrong to bring the complaint to the DoJ and Trump and not turn it over to Congress, but he is doing the right thing now and I can't help but feel genuinely sorry for him watching his testimony. The institutional pressure against him coming from Trump and Barr was likely immense. I'm not gonna place this at his feet. Barr is the black hat.
That family is indicative of how Brexit has upset traditional party loyalties - all the Johnson children were brought up to be Conservative (their father was a Conservative MEP), but have not all stayed that way.
Boris has had a love hate relationship with Europe for a long time, but it was only just before the referendum that he decided to go with the hate element. I think his expressed enthusiasm for Brexit since then is partly because so many long-standing Brexiteers have been suspicious of his late conversion to the cause.
Rachel is a strong advocate for remain and joined the Liberal Democrats after the referendum to fight against that decision. In April this year she switched to Change UK in the hope that would give a better platform, but seems to be regretting that decision as Change UK appear to be going nowhere (while the Lib Dems have made gains as a result of positioning themselves as the strongest advocate for remain).
Jo has been a minister in several governments, but has resigned twice in protest over the handling of Brexit. He wants another referendum, including an option to remain, and found he could not remain as a minister earlier this month given his brother's willingness to embrace a no-deal Brexit. His disillusionment is sufficient that he's said that, in addition to having resigned as a minister, he will not stand again for the Conservatives at the next election.
This whistleblower needs round the clock protection. This is why Schiff took such pains with the DNI this morning to make sure he was committed to doing so.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/26/us/politics/whistle-blower-complaint.html
- President Trump personally intervened to withhold millions in aide that had been allocated by Congress for Ukranian defense. This money was only released to Ukraine the day AFTER Adam Schiff formally requested the whistleblower complaint.
- Shortly after withholding the funds, he made a phone call to the newly elected Ukranian President and in front of multiple witnesses demanded (saying ""I would like you to do us a favor") that he investigate Joe Biden and the hacked DNC server. The FBI had already seen this server but Trump was hoping that notoriously corrupt Ukranain investigators could create something there apparently.
- Trump said that Zelinski should work with Guilliani, his personal lawyer outside the official channels, and Barr, the head of the Justice Department on this. The Ukranian President assured Trump that he had people that Trump would like and would get right on it. At the end of the call, Trump said I think things will look good for your economy in the future. This demand for help is not the business of the United States, it's his personal business. It is an attempt to gain something for his election campaign from a foreign power which is illegal. If we find out that there were explicit promises made that would be an additional crime on top of it.
- This conversation was not classified and stored as per routine on the computer system which such transcripts are typically stored for coordination, finalization, and distribution to Cabinet-level officials. However in this case, White House lawyers “directed” this conversation be moved to a beyond top secret level classified standalone computer system. This is unprecedented - there was no classified information discussed - and indiciates a coverup.
- The acting DNI took the whistleblower complaint to the Justice department, headed by William Barr who is involved in these incidents. The Justice Department told the acting head of the DNI to illegally withhold the complaint. Which he then did.
And there's more outside the transcript and complaint such as Trump telling George Stephanopolous while he was pursuing dirt on Joe Biden through Ukraine that he would totally accept help from a foreign government to meddle in 2020. There's Rudy Guilliani saying "we're meddling in an investigation which we are totally allowed to do" and other stuff like that.
There is a faction among the left who wants this investigation to be as sprawling as possible. I have NO doubt there are numerous other calls or interactions that have disappeared down the same hole as this one did. But I believe the Democrats need to be laser-focused on this issue specifically. It's not hard to understand. Bribery, extortion, secret server, cover-up. Those are things the public can digest. The Mueller Report failed to have the impact it should have because it was so sprawling and byzantine. This isn't. This can be understood by anyone. There was wrongdoing, and then they attempted to cover it up. And again, the Administration isn't even going to BOTHER saying it didn't happen. Their only defense is going to be to go after the people who exposed it and say it was all perfectly fine. This is not a case where the cover-up is worse than the crime (and it really wasn't in Watergate either to be perfectly honest). Both are equally egregious. The one difference being that Nixon did not give the order to break into the Democratic offices at the hotel. He absolutely set-up a White House apparatus that LED to it happening, but he did not have any direct involvement until he was told and decided to pay off the burglars. This is completely different. Trump is here at the ground floor and every point thereafter. This makes Nixon look like a boy-scout.
But you can bank on this. TONS of people knew what was going on, and the biggest non-Trump players include everyone from the Attorney General to the Secretary of State to the Vice President himself. Someone or multiple people are not going to be willing to go down with this ship. We already saw that the acting DNI this morning was CLEARLY not willing to do so. In the end, Trumps capos and soldiers are going to squeal to save themselves. Only Trump is immune to prosecution. No one else enjoys that luxury.
I will also say I find it extremely irresponsible of the New York Times to publish a roadmap to who this whistleblower is mere minutes after Trump's remarks about dealing with "spies". He will be before Congress soon enough, and there is legitimate reason to be concerned about this person's safety.
Allegedly, it isn’t the only conversation given this treatment. Who allowed it to be codeworded needs to be shown the door if not a cell.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/09/giuliani-ukraine-trump-biden/598879/
The best bit:
When I asked him about this specifically, Giuliani nearly began shouting into the telephone. “The State Department is concerned about my activities? I gotta believe [the whistle-blower] is totally out of the loop, or just a liar,” he said.
Giuliani went on to say that State Department officials had asked for his assistance. “If they were so concerned about my activities, why did they ask for my help? Why did they send me a bunch of friendly text messages reaching out for my help, thanking me for my help?” Giuliani said he planned to make sure these “friendly text messages” came out “in a longer story.”
So I got my popcorn ready and watching the fan begin to rapidly spin...
SATAN???
They're already saying the whistleblower works for the CIA. So deepstate aka 'a government employee with duties to protect Americans interests from hostile foreigners' to the rest of us.
Gotta love the whole defense of "the crime is not the crime, the real crime is not hiding the crime!". These type people call themselves Patriots lol.
Like I said, the NYT Times said it was a "CIA Agent temporarily assigned to the White House". So, it makes sense it wasn't a Trump loyalist. And yes, it will feed their Deep State paranoia. I still say it was incredibly irresponsible of the Times to publish that information at this juncture.
I saw an insightful twitter comment that essentially said:
If you go through the proper whistleblower channels (as this person seems to have done), journalists will dig mercilessly to uncover your identity.
If you had leaked the information (which is the inappropriate route) to a journalist, they would defend you as their source as much as possible.
It's a weird world we live in.
Random other observation: It is **super** important that the Democrats did not attempt impeachment over Russia, as many people wanted. If the Democrats had done so, it would have largely fizzled out (in the way that it has already done), and the public wouldnt trust the democrats to impeach Trump on something that actually demonstrates a clear abuse of power, as Whistlegate seems like it has strong potential to do.
And even if you go through the correct channels as your patriotic duty requires, Fox News (state TV) and right wing media WILL lie about you.
Here's the headline right now:
Alot of this isn't so much a sequel as a continuation. Part of what Giuliani was trying to do in Ukraine was dig up information that could justify a pardon of Manafort. Much of this is Trump's obsession on "vindicating" himself even though for various reasons he essentially "won" the round with Mueller despite what it revealed about him. This basically happened the MOMENT Mueller finished testifying, which doesn't strike me as insignificant.
Which brings me to any liberal hold-outs on impeachment at this point. What is the alternative?? For one thing, if you let him keep going down this path, you are basically guaranteeing the election in 2020 will be manipulated again. But for another thing, the Democrats were put in office in 2018 to check Trump. To ignore this would make them seem so feckless and weak that you'd be risking abandonment by at least enough people to swing the election to Trump again. I have said this for months, and I'll continue to say it. This isn't a political obligation, it's a moral and ethical one. Not moving forward based on this information would be tantamount to approving of it. And then where does it end?? It also puts VERY vulnerable Republican Senators up for re-election in 2020 on the record (assuming McConnell even allows the mandated trial when the time comes). Corey Gardner and Susan Collins are NOT going to survive voting to let Trump off the hook. I still see absolutely no way of getting 20 Republicans on board in the Senate. I don't know where those numbers would come from. Five?? Maybe. Ten?? A pipe-dream, but possible. But the 20 needed?? I can't get there.
The kind of defenses the right-wing media apparatus are coming up with today are astoundingly stupid. On Hugh Hewitt's radio show, he and Tom Cotton were pushing some story about Hunter Biden dodging a paternity test in Arkansas. Moreover, I realize Hunter Biden served on this board, but has anyone on the right even bothered to EXPLAIN exactly what his criminal conduct was supposed to have been?? They haven't even come up with prevailing theory, which, incidentally, is exactly what the situation was with Hillary's emails. Everyone would just say "emails" and that was supposed to be the crime in and of itself. As far as I can tell, all they keep saying over there is that Hunter Biden served on the board of an energy company. And that is essentially where it stops. There isn't even any effort being put into explaining what the alleged conduct was. It's completely amorphous. On FOX News tonight, even though we have NO idea who the whistleblower is, they seem completely convinced he is tied to George Soros. He's the fucking Dr. Claw of conservative media.
And, as @smeagolheart said. There is a HUGE difference between leaking and what this whistleblower did. Edward Snowden leaked. Chelsea Manning leaked. This person went through the proper channels, even though at some level he MUST have known it could end up getting squashed (and if the Democrats hadn't taken the House last year, we would have never heard anything about it). But the right-wing attacking CIA officers is nothing new. They outed an undercover one in the Bush Administration because her husband wrote an op-ed telling the truth about their lies about yellow cake in Niger. Their faux-patriotism always reveals itself when the chips are down.
I dont necessarily disagree with you on any particular point. I do think that had we rushed to impeachment as soon as some people in the party wanted us to, we probably wouldnt have the political viability of impeachment now. That's mostly my only point.
I think in some respects, it shows political wisdom from Pelosi. I dont think she foresaw that other impeachable offenses would pop up along the way, but it was a political reading of the tea-leaves in which she is now satisfying a much larger part of her base (as well as far more independents).
The difference between this and Russia seems be 3 fold:
A - It's happening in real time (So Trump cannot sit back and lob conspiracy grenades and try to de-legitimize the process for months and months before it happens)
B - Trump is the sitting president of the United States, and not a private citizen merely running for president.
C - He's already attached himself personally to the scandal by admitted he sought foreign help in discrediting a political rival.
Those three things make impeachment a possibility.
What turned the tide was seven freshman Democrats (mostly from districts Trump carried) with either intelligence community or military experience going to her and essentially saying "we don't care what this does to us, we took an oath then and we took one now, we'll defend ourselves on the merits". These were the exact people she was trying to protect. When they went to her with this, she then gave the go-ahead for their op-ed in the Washington Post. Once that happened, it gave cover for everyone else.
I think another major difference relates to the attempts to hide what happened. Part of the reason that Trump escaped too much damage from Mueller was that he was himself the only obvious target for an obstruction investigation. He gave other people orders to aid the obstruction, but the worst of those proposed actions (like firing Mueller) were refused. Even though I think it undermined the justice system, that allowed Trump to slide on the basis that he's above the law.
In this case there are multiple targets to go after, rather than just Trump. Hiding the original transcript is a big tip-off, but so is fabricating the note of the conversation. The first version of that note was produced on 3rd September, which is obviously far too late to be a genuine desire to minute the conversation. Instead it reflects a desire to sanitize the true record in case the administration were forced to release more information (as they now have done). I imagine the reason it is written in the style of a conversation is that it consists of wording taken from the original transcript and stitched together in an effort to minimize the apparent problem.
The note was then updated on 24th September. The reason given for that was to delete references to classified material, but the real reason is undoubtedly someone looking at the note with fresh eyes ahead of publication and saying "that looks bad".
I imagine that we will ultimately get to see all the versions of the conversation - the original transcript, the 3rd September version, the 24th September version and any others that have been put together but not yet published. I think that will be compelling evidence of a conspiracy and, even if Trump's immunity holds up, that won't be true for others. The only defense/mitigation they will be able to offer was they were only following orders - so I expect over time to see lots of fingers pointed at Trump.
Btw there is another whistleblower. There has been but the House Ways and Means have been sitting on it.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/looks-like-theres-a-second-whistleblower-alleging-trump-acted-improperly/
A little-noticed court filing from August contains a shocking allegation made by a disgruntled Internal Revenue Service (IRS) employee: that President Trump attempted to interfere with some aspect of the agency’s mandatory presidential audit system.
That court filing includes a letter authored by House Ways and Means Chairman Richard Neal (D-Mass.) which is addressed to Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin and describes the situation thusly:
On July 29, 2019, the Committee received an unsolicited communication from a Federal employee setting forth credible allegations of “evidence of possible misconduct”-specifically, potential “inappropriate efforts to influence” the mandatory audit program.
If the impeachment inquiry were to be focused on everything this guy did, it would take til 2022 to investigate and litigate. There aren't enough hours in the day to document all his corruption.
Here's the latest
https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/463408-support-for-impeachment-rises-12-points-in-new-poll
The speed this is developing at is unreal. It's like watching Watergate on fast forward. Most lucrative profession in America tonight?? A defense lawyer in DC.