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  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited February 2020
    This is yet another instance where Trump literally admitted to something and 45% of the population still didn't believe it. But that isn't actually their thinking. They know he did it. They don't care because they believe keeping liberals out of power justifies ANY actions. The next will be worse, and they'll justify that as well. How much anyone want to put down right now if Bernie gets the nomination that Trump orders Bill Barr to investigate his wife Jane over that Burlington College issue?? Cause I'll drop a $1000 for anyone who wants to take up the opposite end. But no one will. Because they KNOW Trump will do so.

    Certain people are on record, categorically, that they are enthusiastically in favor of the President personally soliciting prosecution of anyone he deems an opponent. It's duly-noted. I honestly do kind of hope at this point a Democratic President does the same thing, but with a country like Iran at the center. Just so we can see how full of shit everyone really is. They've made a new set of rules that I'm 1000% sure they would never accept if someone they found more objectionable was in the office. Assuming he ever leaves, whether in 2020 or 2024, I seriously do hope whatever Democrat wins says "go fuck yourself" and runs the exact same playbook. It's the only solution at this point. To give them a taste of their own medicine. Expecting Democrats to play by a set of rules that clearly no longer exist isn't something that will ever work. Let's see how the wall supporters like it when Bernie Sanders siphons 25% of the military budget to green energy by Executive decree. A wall, by the way, that fell down because of STRONG WIND a few days ago.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,964
    edited February 2020
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    This is yet another instance where Trump literally admitted to something and 45% of the population still didn't believe it. But that isn't actually their thinking. They know he did it. They don't care because they believe keeping liberals out of power justifies ANY actions. The next will be worse, and they'll justify that as well. How much anyone want to put down right now if Bernie gets the nomination that Trump orders Bill Barr to investigate his wife Jane over that Burlington College issue?? Cause I'll drop a $1000 for anyone who wants to take up the opposite end. But no one will. Because they KNOW Trump will do so.

    It worked against Hillary (zomg emails), Biden (zomg his son made money off his family name who does he think he is a Trump?).

    Doesn't matter who it is Republicans going to be selectively outraged over some nonsense. Best just to tune out.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    If Bernie gets the nomination (and I say this with no sarcasm or comedic intent) he should answer every question about fudning his initiatives with "Mexico will pay for it". I'm not even slightly kidding.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,964
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    If Bernie gets the nomination (and I say this with no sarcasm or comedic intent) he should answer every question about fudning his initiatives with "Mexico will pay for it". I'm not even slightly kidding.

    That is the the one question he always gets
    "I uh want to help the working class and provide medicare for all!"

    Serious reporter man: "hoW yA gonnA paY for iT"

    We got endless money for tax cuts for the rich, wall street bailouts, endless wars but a basic thing that will fundamentally help americans like healthcare - "how ya gonna pay for it?"
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    Said it before, saying it again the Republican party now stands for nothing. The only ideology or position is "yeah yeah whatever but are you loyal to Trump?"

    While this is true, it's not like Democrats are much better. I can imagine quite clearly what lefties would say if Trump went to war despite Congress specifically voting not to fund it, and it would not be what they said when Obama did that very thing.

    Obama assassinated American citizens without trial (including children!), continued and expanded Bush-era mass surveillance, kept Guantanamo Bay open (and only very disingenuously promised to close it in the first place), deported scores of illegal immigrants, and was the most anti-whistleblower regime in American history by a wide margin. And that is just a few of the things he did that would have outraged the US left if Bush or Trump had done them. All to, at best, muted response from that selfsame left, or outright defence of policies they'd rightly consider horrific if carried out by a Republican president.

    That's not even getting into stuff easily visible here like utter disdain for the Green party. Partisanship is a hell of a drug, and the two party system of the United States encourages further polarisation. Whether or not both sides are equally guilty of this does not change the fact both sides are indeed guilty.

    To put it another way: your house is awfully transparent to be lobbing these stones.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    A wall, by the way, that fell down because of STRONG WIND a few days ago.

    Granted, the concrete that was to support it was still wet. However, it should have still had temporary support beams in place to prevent it from shifting.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,044
    Intersting. With 97% of precincts reporting, Buttigieg and Sanders are essentially in a tie in Iowa--Buttigieg at 26.2% with Sanders at 26.1%.

    Nadler wants to subpoena Bolton to testify before his committee. Wouldn't Bolton be willing to testify before that committee with a simple invitiation as opposed to a subpoena? It isn't like his testimony is going to matter either way.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    I wonder how long it’s going to take them to forget about the Biden’s now that Joe bombed in Iowa.

    I wonder how much screaming these two are going to do when the Democrats eventually do the same thing (for more legitimate reasons) to Eric and Jr.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Intersting. With 97% of precincts reporting, Buttigieg and Sanders are essentially in a tie in Iowa--Buttigieg at 26.2% with Sanders at 26.1%.

    Nadler wants to subpoena Bolton to testify before his committee. Wouldn't Bolton be willing to testify before that committee with a simple invitiation as opposed to a subpoena? It isn't like his testimony is going to matter either way.

    No, he wouldn't.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,044
    edited February 2020
    Well, in that case perhaps Nadler should think about trying to have a court enforce a subpoena against Bolton before he winds up with nothing...again.

    My advice to Republicans would be "Hunter Biden is irrelevant, just as he has always been--it isn't worth the hassle, so drop it and stay focused on important things". I *would* ask Joe how the new grandchild in Arkansas is doing while on the campaign trail, though.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited February 2020
    Well, in that case perhaps Nadler should think about trying to have a court enforce a subpoena against Bolton before he winds up with nothing...again.

    My advice to Republicans would be "Hunter Biden is irrelevant, just as he has always been--it isn't worth the hassle, so drop it and stay focused on important things". I *would* ask Joe how the new grandchild in Arkansas is doing while on the campaign trail, though.

    Really?? They're gonna ask that when the man in the Oval Office was raw-dogging a porn star a couple weeks after his wife gave birth to their youngest child?? You know, the one his lawyer went to jail for illegally paying hush money to?? I think Republicans forfeited their "family values" outrage card a ways back in the rear-view mirror. But who am I kidding?? There is nothing they can't get away with.

    And since no one has a memory of more than 72 hours, you'll recall that Republican Senators were incredulous when Adam Schiff mentioned a report that if any of them turned on Trump, the White House would have their head on a pike. Not true they said. In fact, they offered it as a disingenuous reason for voting not guilty. Fast forward. Mitt Romney votes to convict. Don Jr. calls for him to be expelled from the Republican caucus within MINUTES of the vote. So, it turns out the reporting was.......quite accurate.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,964
    edited February 2020
    Trump's been impeached once, no reason he can't be impeached again.

    But anyway, sure get Bolton to testify.

    Get everything out there so we can see the full extent of the Republican party coverup goes.

    Rake em over the coals for why the don't have the balls to defend the country from election interference. Rake them over the coals for being partisan hacks. These guys need a taste of their own medicine - we need testimony and secret service logs for Ivanka, Eric, Don Jr. We need to uncover all the other schemes plots and lies that Trump has classified or released redacted versions of incriminating evidence.

    impeachment was just the start.

    Precedent has been set for the President to pressure foreign countries to reveal dirt too. I hear Trump has a lot of mysterious dealings with Deutsche Bank. Let's demand some answers there.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,044
    edited February 2020
    I did not say anything about "family values". I was merely suggesting they ask Joe about the grandchild as a way to throw him off balance.
    Trump's been impeached once, no reason he can't be impeached again.

    start --> Investigate --> issue subpoenas --> maybe get courts to enforce them, maybe not --> impeach --> the Senate votes not to convict --> go back to start

    By all means, waste time and money doing that instead of doing anything constructive or productive. As it is, this current House of Representatives hasn't really done much of anything worth noting except "vote to approve the USMCA" (which everyone wanted) and "impeach Trump".
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,964
    edited February 2020
    I did not say anything about "family values". I was merely suggesting they ask Joe about the grandchild as a way to throw him off balance.
    Trump's been impeached once, no reason he can't be impeached again.

    start --> Investigate --> issue subpoenas --> maybe get courts to enforce them, maybe not --> impeach --> the Senate votes not to convict --> go back to start

    By all means, waste time and money doing that instead of doing anything constructive or productive. As it is, this current House of Representatives hasn't really done much of anything worth noting except "vote to approve the USMCA" (which everyone wanted) and "impeach Trump".

    You are dead wrong the House has like 200 bills that sit in the Senate waiting for do-nothing Republicans to do anything. The only thing the Senate seems to want to do is put unqualified partisan hack judges on the judiciary who will rule in favor of corporate interests over people.

    So yeah, let's impeach the criminal again. It's not like he didn't do the thing Republicans lacked the courage to convict him of doing. He did. Rake Republicans over the coals for not defending the country.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,044
    edited February 2020
    The Senate should just shoot down any Democrat-proposed legislation in a flurry of votes; that should clear the schedule of pieces of legislation which are little more than train wrecks.

    On the other, by all means--impeach again. This time, maybe get the courts to enforce subpoenas. The Senate still won't vote to convict/remove so the more time Democrats spend investigating things which won't go anywhere the less time they have for campaigning. I can live with that.

    edit/add: I am glad you mentioned appointing judges. Thomas once floated the idea of stepping down; if he were to do so I would recommend doing so now so that the Senate can confirm his replacement before the election.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    It would help if they found something important, or something he was guilty of, instead of an irrelevant non story like military aid to Ukraine. Imagine if they tried to work with him, compromise, put effort into improving health care or something, instead of this constant back and forth.


    Interesting to watch people point out "errors" in the voting on Twitter and have them be corrected as they are pointed out. Totally legitimate process.





  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited February 2020
    Explain to me how you "work" with someone on healthcare who simultaneously lies on a daily basis that they are the party of "protecting pre-existing conditions" while literally being in court trying to get the only current law that DOES protect them invalidated, at which point EVERY one of those people would be subject to being thrown off their insurance.

    Also, since we're on the subject, explain the Republican health care plan to me. Hell, give me a BASIC idea of what it is. Take as much time as you need. We'll all wait. Forever. They haven't had a single idea since health savings accounts, which amount to nothing more than a non-taxable savings account you can only use for medical bills. Which is frankly absolutely useless to about 90% of the population, and BEYOND useless if anything actually serious takes place.

    Everything they have EVER done on the subject indicates that they absolutely do not give a shit if poor people don't have medical care. Because the core belief of American conservatism is that lack of wealth is a moral failing. And as someone who takes alot of pride in defending Appalachia, I'd think you'd understand that. See, that's the thing. Even if the left disagrees with how those people vote, we still want them to have access to social service safety net we support. Everyone. The right literally seems to think blue states don't deserve disaster relief.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    You start by making an effort. I don't think it realistic that Trump would totally opposed to it, gives him an opportunity to grandstand about being "the best negotiator ever" while democrats get the opportunity to help some people.

    But they would rather fight these futile battles instead. Sad.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited February 2020
    You start by making an effort. I don't think it realistic that Trump would totally opposed to it, gives him an opportunity to grandstand about being "the best negotiator ever" while democrats get the opportunity to help some people.

    But they would rather fight these futile battles instead. Sad.

    Yeah well, I think the whole "we're gonna vote to kick 24 million people off their health insurance with absolutely no back-up plan" kinda torpedoed any hope of that, but I mean, you believe what you wanna believe. I've mentioned on more than one occasion that Trump could win in a landslide if he proposed a health care plan like Bernie Sanders. His base would go along totally without question, and liberals would HAVE to get behind it no matter how much they hate him. But frankly, he's too lazy to get into the details and do the work on it, and even if HE doesn't have any beliefs on it, everyone who surrounds him is wholly against it. So his plan has literally amounted to nothing more than "we're gonna repeal Obamacare and replace it with something great". That would sound absurd and stupid even coming from a 12-year old. As far as I can tell, the only thing Trump actually believes in and cares about is the border issue. Everything else is just him making shit up as he goes along.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    I completely agree that he would win if he pivoted to the left on health care. Being economically left and socially right is a sweet spot that attracts a broad base of support, but doesn't exist in current politics.

    Regardless, I still think the Democrats time would have been better spent trying to negotiate a deal of some kind where they get something they want, even if that was the continuation or even expansion of Obamacare. He possibly would have went for it for something on the border, because as you say that's his big issue. That's how I feel about most partisan fights of this nature really.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    I completely agree that he would win if he pivoted to the left on health care. Being economically left and socially right is a sweet spot that attracts a broad base of support, but doesn't exist in current politics.

    Regardless, I still think the Democrats time would have been better spent trying to negotiate a deal of some kind where they get something they want, even if that was the continuation or even expansion of Obamacare. He possibly would have went for it for something on the border, because as you say that's his big issue. That's how I feel about most partisan fights of this nature really.

    If Trump threw in Dreamer protection and could somehow (and this is literally impossible even for him) corral enough Senate Republican votes to push through a public option (not even Medicare for All) I would give him UNLIMITED funding for his damn wall. Partially because I'm 99% sure he is too incompetent to get it built during even an 8-year Presidency.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,044
    edited February 2020
    Other than for trade deals like the USMCA, which will ultimately wind up putting money into the pockets of people from both sides, the days of Democrats and Republicans working together at the Congressional level are behind us now. After Mueller, Kavanaugh, and impeachment there is simply too much bad blood for that to occur like it used to. I can live with that, as well, because I always prefer that people be truthful about how they feel.

    We wouldn't really need walls along the border with Mexico if the cartels were driven out of existence. Mexico is not doing its job on that front very well.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    Other than for trade deals like the USMCA, which will ultimately wind up putting money into the pockets of people from both sides, the days of Democrats and Republicans working together at the Congressional level are behind us now. After Mueller, Kavanaugh, and impeachment there is simply too much bad blood for that to occur like it used to. I can live with that, as well, because I always prefer that people be truthful about how they feel.

    We wouldn't really need walls along the border with Mexico if the cartels were driven out of existence. Mexico is not doing its job on that front very well.

    It's probably an unpopular opinion but if our military needs sending anywhere it's to Mexico. It's right in our backyard and cartels will kill dozens of cops and civilians just to keep one of their own out of prison. It's an unacceptable situation to be occuring right in our sphere of influence, if we are to get involved in other countries at all.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,044
    It's probably an unpopular opinion but if our military needs sending anywhere it's to Mexico. It's right in our backyard and cartels will kill dozens of cops and civilians just to keep one of their own out of prison. It's an unacceptable situation to be occuring right in our sphere of influence, if we are to get involved in other countries at all.

    The *only* acceptable way in which we send troops into Mexico is if Mexico were to try and use its military to stop the cartels but face heavy losses and ask us for intervention. At one time, the Los Zetas cartel had access to military weapons--including helicopters--because one of the leaders had a brother who was a colonel. The cartel crews also like to "Mad Max" their cars--armor plating, mounted weapons, etc.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    edited February 2020
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-02-03/fear-panic-around-the-coronavirus-fuels-racist-sentiment?_amp=true

    People are so predictable. I was going to stop off at a sub shop for lunch but decided to stop off at my favorite Chinese restaurant instead after hearing that morons were boycotting Chinese food...
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    The Senate should just shoot down any Democrat-proposed legislation in a flurry of votes; that should clear the schedule of pieces of legislation which are little more than train wrecks.

    But they won’t do that because then they’ll be held accountable for killing a bill that may benefit the people they represent. Easier to paint the other side as doing nothing than actually being accountable to constituents and allow their devoted followers to use the “it’s all trash bills anyway, send something good, then they’ll vote hur hur.”

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    edited February 2020
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    This is absolutely hilarious:

    Satan does quote scripture. Quite famously, when he is tempting Jesus in his 40 days in the desert. It is quite literally the MAIN tactic he uses against him. It's one of the seminal moments of the New Testament. It is IMPOSSIBLE to know anything about Christianity and not know this story. This family is the biggest bunch of frauds I have ever seen. And maybe all these conservative churchgoers don't know jack-shit about their own religion either. I know this simply from paying mild attention when I was ten years old.

    Maybe he's mistaking Satan with Dracula...
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,044
    That brings me back to an idea I had not floated in quite a while--auto-sunsets or "countdown timers" built in to all proposed legislation. Once a bill is voted upon in one chamber and gets sent to the other chamber, if it is tabled or kicked around in committee for more than 90 days the proposed legislation automatically becomes null and void. This way, bills which are wanted are discussed and voted upon right away; bills which are not simply die and the politicians have to explain to voters back home why such-and-such bill died.

    Linking Chinese food to the coronavirus makes about as much sense as the people who were linking it to Corona beer.
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