Many countries are handling this much better than the US and the U.K. It is a myth that leadership doesn’t matter, the virus is being well controlled in parts of Asia and this crisis is really showing you get what you vote for. The response of the U.K., an island, has been particularly dismal when the advantages it had are factored in. The countries that have prioritised the health of the populace are seeing better economic outcomes than those that refuse to take steps to save more lives and thought in mainly financial terms. Funnily enough the countries that are suffering the most are those led by male populists whose bull**** doesn’t work on the virus.
I don’t understand the mentality that says any economic cost is worth say Brexit but it is not worth it to save the elderly and the vulnerable. The I’ve got to live my life argument is really wearing thin - how long has this been going on in the grand scheme of things? The vaccine is on the way. I think I’ll manage to not visit HMV or go to a live concert in the short term, thanks, if that may contribute to saving many lives. And the virus is evolving where it is being left to run riot...
I'm sorry but I know an 88 year old man who, although he does wear a mask, refuses to stay secluded. His logic? Says he's not sacrificing a year of his life because he has no idea how many he has left. I was going to argue with him about it, but then I thought maybe he has a point.
This is not an 'I'm right and everybody else is wrong' thing. It's not the zombie apocalypse. Covid-19 is roughly twice as lethal as the flu (probably less than that once all the numbers come in). Wait until the numbers are in on suicide rates and other mortality due to seclusion, depression, fear of going to the doctor and loss of work. The virus itself is only part of the story.
Sorry, can’t see that the mortality rate of the flu is half the rate of COVID-19. On average around 40,000 people die of the flu every year, what are we at now with COVID-19, 330,000+. People are dying every day of COVID at the rate of the Gettysburg battle. If a politician started a war where 3,000 Americans died every day they would not be impeached, they would be dangling from a rope outside the White House. Yes, we have to look at the whole picture and oh no! We can’t ask people to make sacrifices! It was handled wrong, the data is all there. Just the fact that someone as smart as you is arguing that you can’t expect people to continue a lockdown is proof of that. In the history of this country we have never been more connected to the outside world from our own home than we are now. It is tough and people are suffering, I promise you though if a foreign enemy was attacking our country and killing people at a rate of 3,000 or more per day, no one would be complaining of making sacrifices. I have tremendous respect for you but that argument is weak. Try harder.
More people have contracted Covid than normally contract the flu. That's why more people have died. The mortality 'rate' is what I was talking about. It's not really 'my' argument anyway. It's what I hear from the right-wing members of my family.
Look, I wish people in this country were capable of logical thinking and following advice from the government (or ignoring bad advice from government) but clearly we're not there. From my perspective, religion clouds the judgment of folks on the right, and naivety about human nature clouds the judgment of people on the left.
I just wish people would wear masks, social distance and act responsibly. It should be the patriotic thing to do, the fact that it is not is disgraceful. I understand, my family is the same way.
The right I think is more than just a bunch of pulpit bangers, they are afraid to lose their way of life. The reality they knew is eroding. Unfortunately that is something that was going to happen in an age of great technological and social advancement. The left, well the sad fact that fear sells and the media makes more money from bad news than good is rather annoying. Why does my local news talk about a bus crash where one person dies and three were injured in Arkansas? They import tragedy and I get tired of it. They don’t even comment on half the fatal motor vehicle accidents in our own area. The media is a money making machine in times of turmoil, and the world now is in a state of turmoil.
My biggest problem is just people acting irresponsibly right now. Live your life but why can’t people be responsible about it? Anne Frank spent 761 days in isolation, and we can’t even wear masks in the supermarket. Frustrating and disappointing.
There's just no polite eay to say that selfishness and partisanship killed people during this pandemic. And there's no polite way to say that our political leaders aren't the only ones who killed our people. Our own citizens did it, too.
I'm not going to forgive the people who killed my fellow Americans.
Many countries are handling this much better than the US and the U.K. It is a myth that leadership doesn’t matter, the virus is being well controlled in parts of Asia and this crisis is really showing you get what you vote for. The response of the U.K., an island, has been particularly dismal when the advantages it had are factored in. The countries that have prioritised the health of the populace are seeing better economic outcomes than those that refuse to take steps to save more lives and thought in mainly financial terms. Funnily enough the countries that are suffering the most are those led by male populists whose bull**** doesn’t work on the virus.
I don’t understand the mentality that says any economic cost is worth say Brexit but it is not worth it to save the elderly and the vulnerable. The I’ve got to live my life argument is really wearing thin - how long has this been going on in the grand scheme of things? The vaccine is on the way. I think I’ll manage to not visit HMV or go to a live concert in the short term, thanks, if that may contribute to saving many lives. And the virus is evolving where it is being left to run riot...
I'm sorry but I know an 88 year old man who, although he does wear a mask, refuses to stay secluded. His logic? Says he's not sacrificing a year of his life because he has no idea how many he has left. I was going to argue with him about it, but then I thought maybe he has a point.
This is not an 'I'm right and everybody else is wrong' thing. It's not the zombie apocalypse. Covid-19 is roughly twice as lethal as the flu (probably less than that once all the numbers come in). Wait until the numbers are in on suicide rates and other mortality due to seclusion, depression, fear of going to the doctor and loss of work. The virus itself is only part of the story.
Sorry, can’t see that the mortality rate of the flu is half the rate of COVID-19. On average around 40,000 people die of the flu every year, what are we at now with COVID-19, 330,000+. People are dying every day of COVID at the rate of the Gettysburg battle. If a politician started a war where 3,000 Americans died every day they would not be impeached, they would be dangling from a rope outside the White House. Yes, we have to look at the whole picture and oh no! We can’t ask people to make sacrifices! It was handled wrong, the data is all there. Just the fact that someone as smart as you is arguing that you can’t expect people to continue a lockdown is proof of that. In the history of this country we have never been more connected to the outside world from our own home than we are now. It is tough and people are suffering, I promise you though if a foreign enemy was attacking our country and killing people at a rate of 3,000 or more per day, no one would be complaining of making sacrifices. I have tremendous respect for you but that argument is weak. Try harder.
More people have contracted Covid than normally contract the flu. That's why more people have died. The mortality 'rate' is what I was talking about. It's not really 'my' argument anyway. It's what I hear from the right-wing members of my family.
Look, I wish people in this country were capable of logical thinking and following advice from the government (or ignoring bad advice from government) but clearly we're not there. From my perspective, religion clouds the judgment of folks on the right, and naivety about human nature clouds the judgment of people on the left.
I just wish people would wear masks, social distance and act responsibly. It should be the patriotic thing to do, the fact that it is not is disgraceful. I understand, my family is the same way.
The right I think is more than just a bunch of pulpit bangers, they are afraid to lose their way of life. The reality they knew is eroding. Unfortunately that is something that was going to happen in an age of great technological and social advancement. The left, well the sad fact that fear sells and the media makes more money from bad news than good is rather annoying. Why does my local news talk about a bus crash where one person dies and three were injured in Arkansas? They import tragedy and I get tired of it. They don’t even comment on half the fatal motor vehicle accidents in our own area. The media is a money making machine in times of turmoil, and the world now is in a state of turmoil.
My biggest problem is just people acting irresponsibly right now. Live your life but why can’t people be responsible about it? Anne Frank spent 761 days in isolation, and we can’t even wear masks in the supermarket. Frustrating and disappointing.
Careful now, I'm sure there is an Anne Frank-truther movement out there somewhere just waiting to go mainstream.
This report says that only 111 people have died from the flu in 2019 in Canada. Yet, an Ontario page about the Flu shot claims that 3,500 die in Canada each year from the flu (https://www.ontario.ca/page/flu-facts ).
The numbers are exaggerated so people will get the flu shot and it is this exaggeration that I believe make people think that the COVID numbers are also being exaggerated by health officials and the media.
This report says that only 111 people have died from the flu in 2019 in Canada. Yet, an Ontario page about the Flu shot claims that 3,500 die in Canada each year from the flu (https://www.ontario.ca/page/flu-facts ).
The numbers are exaggerated so people will get the flu shot and it is this exaggeration that I believe make people think that the COVID numbers are also being exaggerated by health officials and the media.
I agree there is the potential for over-reporting and undoubtedly that will have occurred to some degree with Covid-19. However, a comparison of excess deaths against Covid-19 deaths shows that in almost all countries there have been more excess deaths in 2020 than the official Covid-19 ones - strongly suggesting that under-reporting of Covid-19 is a greater problem than over-reporting. You can look at individual country data here. In the US for instance there were 275,000 excess deaths between 1 March and 16 August, compared to 169,000 attributed to Covid-19.
So if somebody deosn't follow the rules what would you do with them?
Depends on the rules that they're breaking, IMO. For a situation like the one that is being discussed, I'd say it would be similar to an infraction, or at most a misdemeanor, but certainly not a felony. The solution? Just give him a ticket, as if it was a traffic infraction.
I realize that my opinion on this issue won't make me very popular, but let's be realistic here. What are you supposed to do with cases like these, are you going to advocate for the use of excessive force against folks that refuse to remain secluded and wear a mask? That's bullshit. We're not going to solve this problem by resorting to either police brutality or the threat of incarceration. You might have a case if you advocate for hefty fines instead of measly tickets, but that borders on coercion if you ask me.
I'd like to agree. I think a fine is "fine" in most cases. But if it's egregious enough like someone throwing a 60 person party you have to consider something a bit more excessive possibly.
At any rate, the problem with fines being the only punitive measure makes it where there's no rules for the rich because a fine means nothing to some people.
Wealthy defendants couldn’t care less about fines (and a millionaire with a $500 fine really couldn’t care less), then they’re not actually being deprived of anything in consequence of their violation of law.
So if somebody deosn't follow the rules what would you do with them?
Depends on the rules that they're breaking, IMO. For a situation like the one that is being discussed, I'd say it would be similar to an infraction, or at most a misdemeanor, but certainly not a felony. The solution? Just give him a ticket, as if it was a traffic infraction.
I realize that my opinion on this issue won't make me very popular, but let's be realistic here. What are you supposed to do with cases like these, are you going to advocate for the use of excessive force against folks that refuse to remain secluded and wear a mask? That's bullshit. We're not going to solve this problem by resorting to either police brutality or the threat of incarceration. You might have a case if you advocate for hefty fines instead of measly tickets, but that borders on coercion if you ask me.
I'd like to agree. I think a fine is "fine" in most cases. But if it's egregious enough like someone throwing a 60 person party you have to consider something a bit more excessive possibly.
At any rate, the problem with fines being the only punitive measure makes it where there's no rules for the rich because a fine means nothing to some people.
Wealthy defendants couldn’t care less about fines (and a millionaire with a $500 fine really couldn’t care less), then they’re not actually being deprived of anything in consequence of their violation of law.
There shouldn't NEED to be fines for this. As I have mentioned half a dozen times, in the United States, there is a common sign posted on the doors of most gas stations (for whatever reason) that reads "no shirt, no shoes, no service". Meaning, unless you are wearing clothes and some type of footwear, you aren't going to be able to use the services or buy the products offered at the gas station. I have never, in 38 years, seen someone look at this sign, get indignant about being told what to do, rip off their shirt, and kick their sneakers off. Ever.
But that is basically what has happened for some people with masks. And there is only one explanation for it in my view. They (completely incorrectly) view wearing a mask as some kind of totem of opposition to Trump. It isn't, literally NO liberals are wearing a mask to piss off conservatives. But they absolutely see it this way. Because they have to. Because to admit masks are necessary is to admit the virus is in fact, real and deadly. And to admit that is to admit that Trump's response from January all the way to today was a historic failure. They are incapable of doing that. People wearing masks is a constant reminder that they supported a man who basically left the country to burn. And they'd rather let untold excess numbers of people die than admit that. The refusal of 25% of the population to take this seriously for even a single second is ENTIRELY a political problem engineered by right-wing propaganda which was deployed for the benefit of the President.
There shouldn't NEED to be fines for this. As I have mentioned half a dozen times, in the United States, there is a common sign posted on the doors of most gas stations (for whatever reason) that reads "no shirt, no shoes, no service". Meaning, unless you are wearing clothes and some type of footwear, you aren't going to be able to use the services or buy the products offered at the gas station. I have never, in 38 years, seen someone look at this sign, get indignant about being told what to do, rip off their shirt, and kick their sneakers off. Ever.
But that is basically what has happened for some people with masks. And there is only one explanation for it in my view. They (completely incorrectly) view wearing a mask as some kind of totem of opposition to Trump. It isn't, literally NO liberals are wearing a mask to piss off conservatives. But they absolutely see it this way. Because they have to. Because to admit masks are necessary is to admit the virus is in fact, real and deadly. And to admit that is to admit that Trump's response from January all the way to today was a historic failure. They are incapable of doing that. People wearing masks is a constant reminder that they supported a man who basically left the country to burn. And they'd rather let untold excess numbers of people die than admit that. The refusal of 25% of the population to take this seriously for even a single second is ENTIRELY a political problem engineered by right-wing propaganda which was deployed for the benefit of the President.
May I suggest the possibility that you are over-simplifying this issue? For example, in my country there are people who don't wear masks. And in other countries, we see the same situation. By your logic, and your words, these people "view wearing a mask as some kind of totem opposition to Trump". Please explain how this is even possible in other countries, where people didn't vote for Trump.
@semiticgoddess Different individuals cite different reasons. Some of these reasons are simply misinformed opinions, others are interesting arguments. Example of the former: some people refuse to wear masks because they believe that they will become intoxicated by inhaling their own CO2. Example of the latter: some people refuse to wear a mask in some specific context, for example if they go to a beach where there is no one else, just them and their lonesome. I should know, since I live in a small coastal town, and there's a lot of moments where you can go to the beach and there's literally no one else there (I do wear a mask even when I'm alone at the beach, if you must know. But other folks don't, and I can't really fault them for it).
Hereabouts people don't wear that many masks unless it is inside stores or outside in crowded areas. When you go for a walk they would barely have them on their person. It is simply not in the nature of people yet.
The problem is that the government cannot legally make them mandatory except for inside official government or institution locations. This made it such that all government communication so far has been that masks are optional but highly recommended. Mixed messages, and now it got worse since finally a law is somewhat in place for the institutions people just do not understand what is needed.
@semiticgoddess Different individuals cite different reasons. Some of these reasons are simply misinformed opinions, others are interesting arguments. Example of the former: some people refuse to wear masks because they believe that they will become intoxicated by inhaling their own CO2. Example of the latter: some people refuse to wear a mask in some specific context, for example if they go to a beach where there is no one else, just them and their lonesome. I should know, since I live in a small coastal town, and there's a lot of moments where you can go to the beach and there's literally no one else there (I do wear a mask even when I'm alone at the beach, if you must know. But other folks don't, and I can't really fault them for it).
No one is talking about people out for a walk or strolling the beach. In this country, we had 10s of thousands of people packing into bars for an entire weekend at a motorcycle rally, which caused a massive outbreak all over the midwest 3 weeks later. Every day there is a new video of someone in a store throwing a temper tantrum because they've been asked to wear a face covering while shopping.
Half my own family on my mom's side turned their social media posts about our normal Memorial Day gathering (which they were pissed half of us declined to attend for obvious reasons) into an anti-mask statement of purpose. Even AFTER my aunt explicitly told my other aunt she stayed away because her granddaughter is a frickin' cancer patient, they STILL assumed the reason was to shame them about their political views. This pandemic has made it nearly impossible to respect half my extended family. I tried, but I'm just done. Every attempt at outreach has been met with nothing but doubling down on the idea that the virus and everyone's reaction to it was a plot to destroy Trump's reelection, and even a child with pediatric cancer isn't a reasonable excuse to not attend large gatherings. It's not just refusal to wear masks. It's a steadfast belief that no one else should be either.
This also ties into the asinine American view of what "personal freedom" is, which can now basically be boiled down to "I'll do whatever I want regardless of how it affects anyone else". It's not even about personal choice anymore. It's a desire to avoid personal responsibility for anything whatsoever. Which, again, is quite rich coming from a party who made the phrase a bumper sticker slogan for decades.
I keep being reminded of the shit-fit smokers threw when we finally moved smoking out out of all indoor public places. Convinced they were the real victims, not the innocent bystanders and workers whose health they had been jeopardizing for decades.
Sorry to hear about your family's problems, @jjstraka34 . All I can say is that sometimes it's better to cut off all relations with some people, even if they're family. Regardless, I hope that it doesn't have to be that way, and I hope that the situation improves.
I worked this weekend at the local food bank, and a bit with my friend who works with the homeless. I know, scary right? Not really worried about dying of COVID anymore though, meh, not a biggie at this point. What scares me is the sheer volume of transgender and, kay make no mistake now that I am talking about a completely different group, the mentally ill homeless and needy. I figure that trans people make up about one to two percent of the population. Do the math but I am guessing that is pretty close. What is bothersome is that at least 10-15% of the homeless were trans. Maybe I am overstating a little but not much, it is possible that I understated it a little. I have always had a job, enough money to get by even when I struggled. Never a part of the community so I had no idea. Why are 50% of the homeless people mentally ill? Why are trans people over represented in the homeless community? Why do the mentality ill and trans people make up such a huge portion of homeless people considering they are such a tiny part of the overall population? This is not a trans rant, yeah not happy at the percent, gotta say that I am appalled by the way society treats the mentally ill. Kay had to throw in the other, I mean, come on! This is not about my usual trans issues though again, wow! I was surprised at how many. It is about a systemic neglect of the mentally ill. They will never protest and no one will ever care but they broke my heart.
Kay let’s be clear, most trans people are not mentally ill, just normal people, this is not about trans. Just thought it would be worth mentioning. I am talking about those poor unfortunates that live outside the system because no one cares about them because no one understands the mentally ill.
In a way I am grateful somewhat, I had been without a purpose the last month and nine days. Not sure I can fight this fight but I have a little time right now so... gonna give it a go.
@_Nightfall_: Yup. A disproportionate number of the homeless population are LGBTQ+. A lot of things contribute to it. One in four trans people has been fired for being transgender, one in five have been denied housing for being trans, and a lot of trans folks enter homelessness in their teenage years when their parents disown them. Gay kids suffer similar experiences.
Mental illnesses are one of the primary causes of homelessness, making it harder to hold down work and manage day-to-day affairs. Mental health care is incredibly expensive in this country, so a lot of folks do not get treated and end up on the streets, where coping is even harder and people get exposed to illicit drugs, sex work, and violence, in addition to the ordinary challenges of homelessness: "How sick will I get if I eat this burger out of the garbage?" "Where can I sleep when it drops below freezing again?" "If I ask for help is someone going to call the police on me?" "Where do I shower?" "Do I buy a pair of socks or do I spend my last dollar on food?"
And, of course, the more heartbreaking question, "How do I feed my kids?" Not every member of the homeless population is single or childless.
At my first trans support meeting, a sweet older woman named Pauline made a beeline for me after the meeting to offer me emotional support (she smelled the egg on me when I took ages to answer a question about my pronouns; she could tell I was nervous and new to the scene). She'd been through the ringer, transitioning while homeless and overcoming substance abuse she ran into when she was on the streets. Maybe half the trans people I know have experience physical abuse or sexual assault or both, and several have resorted to sex work to make ends meet. A few have run into drugs, and nearly all of them are low-income. My mentor is the only high-earning trans person I know.
It's not all bad. Being trans doesn't automatically ruin your life; it just dramatically increases the odds that any given disaster can happen, and they tend to multiply.
It's kind of a spiraling effect. Be trans, get assaulted. Get assaulted, fight back. Fight back, go to jail. Go to jail, lose your job. Lose your job, sell your body. Sell your body, get addicted. Get addicted, run out of money. Run out of money, stop going to the doctor. Stop going to the doctor, get sick. On top of that, your friends and family abandon you.
You are now disabled, homeless, broke, and alone. You have years of labor ahead of you before you can get back to a normal life. Who's going to help you when you're breaking down? Who's going to convince you not to commit suicide when you see no other way out?
That's why these things tend to run together; every problem exacerbates the other ones. And solving them costs money, but you make minimum wage and rent is sky-high and you need to fix your car and your debt still needs to be paid off and you can't delay seeing the doctor forever.
And that's why trans folks like you tend to gravitate towards charity work, Michelle. Go through enough hell and you realize just how much good you can do for your fellow human beings just by donating a few hours a week.
I used to work at my local homeless shelter and it was very enjoyable work. I wrote resumes and helped teach computer skills. Anyone could have done my job, really. One of the things I learned there was that making the world a better place is as simple as getting basic resources to people who don't have them.
I encourage you to get involved. Volunteering can be very rewarding and fun.
Not everything is so dark, of course. There's a lot of joy and a lot of love and kinship in the community. I can't describe just how incredible it feels to finally be in the right skin, or to look at yourself in the mirror and finally feel okay. Find the right person to spend your life with, and everything gets easier.
I live in a warm, loving environment and I can't express how valuable it is. I know people who get verbal abuse almost every day, but I am in a safe place and life is so much easier where I am. More than once, I've wished I could bring folks from my community and let them live with me.
My girlfriend's dad helped me change out my car battery today, just because I needed help. He grilled us some burgers in the evening. And from morning to night, my girlfriend has been hugging and smooching me just because we walked past each other or happened to make eye contact when we were on our computers.
Life as a trans person can be pretty damn amazing, too.
Hereabouts people don't wear that many masks unless it is inside stores or outside in crowded areas. When you go for a walk they would barely have them on their person. It is simply not in the nature of people yet.
The problem is that the government cannot legally make them mandatory except for inside official government or institution locations. This made it such that all government communication so far has been that masks are optional but highly recommended. Mixed messages, and now it got worse since finally a law is somewhat in place for the institutions people just do not understand what is needed.
While this is true, it's a general point rather than something specific to Covid-19. The executive can't in general change the law unilaterally - changes in law are the function of the legislative body (Congress).
One of the problems in the US is that there has been so little agreement between political parties on how to respond to the pandemic. That's not been the case in most countries - while there are always fringe opinions, in most places it has been possible to form a consensus about the best way to govern (and to put that into law).
In the US, the level of disagreement has been such that there is not even a consensus about what the issues are - much less on how best to solve them. I can certainly understand people taking very different views about how you prioritize different factors (like personal freedom, health and economic success). I don't though really understand how so many people in the wider political system can take the position that some of those factors are not real - I suppose I just find it hard to fathom how people with a conspiracy theory mentality ended up in charge of a system they didn't believe in ...
Trump signed in bill with the $600.00 relief checks. So, to the last, his populist stances are just performative nonsense that he refuses to use the actual weight of his office to push through. Republicans are terrified of looking at this guy the wrong way, yet I can't recall a SINGLE time where he threatened GOP Senators to vote with him for an actual worthwhile goal. More than willing to threaten Republicans with a primary if they aren't nice enough to him, but unwilling to lift a finger of the considerable clout and power he has over them because of his base to actually accomplish a legislative task. Never has an occupant of that office had so much power over his own party and used it for so little.
The new anti democratic/authoritarian desperation play is apparently to hope that Mike Pence will decline to count the certified EVs from any state he considers tainted, and leave both candidates short of 270 votes (Theoretically kicking the election to the House of Representatives, which would install Trump president).
It's obviously a ridiculous concept and total desperation play - but some are advocating for it. Like Rasmussen Polling.
The new anti democratic/authoritarian desperation play is apparently to hope that Mike Pence will decline to count the certified EVs from any state he considers tainted, and leave both candidates short of 270 votes (Theoretically kicking the election to the House of Representatives, which would install Trump president).
It's obviously a ridiculous concept and total desperation play - but some are advocating for it. Like Rasmussen Polling.
It's pretty absurd that Rasmussen is still taken seriously as a legitimate source of polling data when they are now literally calling for the Vice President to initiate a coup on the floor of the Senate on January 6, 2021. Again, aside from Mitt Romney and Larry Hogan (Governor of Maryland), every so-called "reasonable" Republican is, at the very least, playing footsie with this shit under the table.
The new anti democratic/authoritarian desperation play is apparently to hope that Mike Pence will decline to count the certified EVs from any state he considers tainted, and leave both candidates short of 270 votes (Theoretically kicking the election to the House of Representatives, which would install Trump president).
It's obviously a ridiculous concept and total desperation play - but some are advocating for it. Like Rasmussen Polling.
At that moment, the Presidency will be in his hands.
And there is nothing stopping Pence, under the (plenary and unappealable) authority vested in him as President of the Senate, from declining to open and count the certificates from the six disputed states.
Also,
Rep Louie Gohmert (R-Moscow) sued Pence in Federal Court in Texas (where McConnell has packed the courts with insane far right wingers)
The Electoral Count Act of 1887 requires the vice president to affirm the winner of the elections, in a largely ceremonial capacity. Gohmert wants this law declared unconstitutional so that Pence can just pick who Pence wants to be President. The move would effectively ensure that Trump returns to office despite losing the election to Biden.
A number of Republican officials joined the suit, including Kelli Ward, chairwoman of the Arizona Republican Party.
Pelosi just got a 2/3 vote on a standalone $2000.00, which means it's veto-proof. Ball is now entirely in the hands of the GOP Senate. If policy mattered one ounce, this would wrap up the GA Senste races, but, sadly, it doesn't. Can't wait to see how the meda "both sides" this anyway.
The new anti democratic/authoritarian desperation play is apparently to hope that Mike Pence will decline to count the certified EVs from any state he considers tainted, and leave both candidates short of 270 votes (Theoretically kicking the election to the House of Representatives, which would install Trump president).
It's obviously a ridiculous concept and total desperation play - but some are advocating for it. Like Rasmussen Polling.
At that moment, the Presidency will be in his hands.
And there is nothing stopping Pence, under the (plenary and unappealable) authority vested in him as President of the Senate, from declining to open and count the certificates from the six disputed states.
Also,
Rep Louie Gohmert (R-Moscow) sued Pence in Federal Court in Texas (where McConnell has packed the courts with insane far right wingers)
The Electoral Count Act of 1887 requires the vice president to affirm the winner of the elections, in a largely ceremonial capacity. Gohmert wants this law declared unconstitutional so that Pence can just pick who Pence wants to be President. The move would effectively ensure that Trump returns to office despite losing the election to Biden.
A number of Republican officials joined the suit, including Kelli Ward, chairwoman of the Arizona Republican Party.
So we have yet another coup attempt by the anti-American Republican party.
Sorry, can’t see any of this happening. It would be suicide for the country, another civil war. No court official has been open to any of these claims for more than a month and a half. It won’t happen. Fear is the mind killer, don’t spread fear please, we have enough right now. There would be war in the streets if this happened, it won’t. The government denying the will of the people? Not bloody likely. It would be political suicide for them, after we overthrew the government it might be even worse. Won’t happen. I did an extensive paper on the French Revolution way back when, deny the people their voice and it will get uglier than you could imagine. It will not happen, ask Amy Coney Barret how far she is willing to go for the man who put her in office, answer to this point, not very far. The writing is on the wall, they could recoup, figure out what happened. They have known for some time how they are lagging though right, known for a while and that is why they are willing to take thug tactics. They could order everyone involved in their loss of power executed, metaphorically speaking, and go from there. Or what I think will happen, they will pull the blinds and pretend it didn’t happen. Trump is a criminal, he won’t be allowed to retire to the pasture, he has done too much. This will not be a good year to be Donald Trump. So they will disassociate with him.
Fear is justified when people are out there who are taking concrete actions against you or things you support.
Gohmert and the Republican party are attacking
the Americann system of government. There have been multiple attempts. Just because the attempts have failed - so far - doesn't mean we should not recognize and fear what is happening.
The GOP has been pretty adamant that Democratic victories in elections are illegitimate and need to be defeated in the courts, and the GOP has been placing people in judicial positions for a long time now. The intent is very clear; they want Trump installed as president, and are using every tool they can to put him there. The weakness of the effort so far doesn't mean we can safely ignore it. They only need to succeed once.
There's no special reason the United States is immune to fascism when other democracies have fallen to it before. We only stay a democracy as long as we are committed to staying a democracy, and I don't know if we've ever had this many people be opposed to the very concept of elections themselves.
We're not out of the woods yet. Trump has not given up, and he is not the only one fighting this, he has lots of people on his side.
He's failing right now because he doesn't have enough legal grounds to overturn the results in court. But that can be changed; the GOP can always put more partisan and less qualified people in charge. What happens when a different president who's better prepared and more competent takes the same case to a more partisan court?
What specifically is stopping him? And will it hold strong forever?
Fear is justified when people are out there who are taking concrete actions against you or things you support.
Gohmert and the Republican party are attacking
the Americann system of government. There have been multiple attempts. Just because the attempts have failed - so far - doesn't mean we should not recognize and fear what is happening.
Yep, I wish I could be optimistic about the GOP, and see them actually disassociating from Trump. But it appears to be the opposite of the case. I don't think there's much risk of Trump stealing the election here at the 11th hour.
What's clearly happening, in my opinion, is that Trump is going to use these false claims about the election to remain the vocal head of the GOP when he's out of power. And almost nobody in the Republican party seems interested in trying to prevent this. I suspect we're going to see him hosting rallies once again, attempting to flood the media with his presence as much as possible, going to opine on every issue of the day. And he's going to maintain the mantle of being the GOP frontrunner for the next presidential nomination.
What this means is that we're going to have four years of GOP leadership being in lockstep that Biden isn't legitimate. This means no serious compromise on any issue. This means a minority, but large group, of the population continuing to believe this. And what it really means is a longer term erosion of our democracy's capacity to function.
So far from being something that we think will just fade away, I think we do need to be alarmed about it. And, as much as people can, voice how reprehensible this behavior is.
McConnell is, at best, going to poison-pill the standalone stimulus to the point that Democrats cannot vote for it. Bernie is going to filibuster the defense authorization bill in response. I would be absolutely shocked if this passes the Senate.
The true power in Republican politics is still Mitch McConnell. Unlike Trump, he doesn't give a rat's ass about his approval rating. He knows he can get reelected in Kentucky even with approval ratings in the 30s simply by not having a D after his name. He does the bidding of big business every time, and this will be no different. A $2000.00 check can't go out, because it would mean admitting that government can, in fact, help people. Their entire project is to make sure people think that isn't the case.
Comments
I just wish people would wear masks, social distance and act responsibly. It should be the patriotic thing to do, the fact that it is not is disgraceful. I understand, my family is the same way.
The right I think is more than just a bunch of pulpit bangers, they are afraid to lose their way of life. The reality they knew is eroding. Unfortunately that is something that was going to happen in an age of great technological and social advancement. The left, well the sad fact that fear sells and the media makes more money from bad news than good is rather annoying. Why does my local news talk about a bus crash where one person dies and three were injured in Arkansas? They import tragedy and I get tired of it. They don’t even comment on half the fatal motor vehicle accidents in our own area. The media is a money making machine in times of turmoil, and the world now is in a state of turmoil.
My biggest problem is just people acting irresponsibly right now. Live your life but why can’t people be responsible about it? Anne Frank spent 761 days in isolation, and we can’t even wear masks in the supermarket. Frustrating and disappointing.
I'm not going to forgive the people who killed my fellow Americans.
Careful now, I'm sure there is an Anne Frank-truther movement out there somewhere just waiting to go mainstream.
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications/diseases-conditions/fluwatch/2019-2020/weeks-15-19-april-5-may-9-2020.html
This report says that only 111 people have died from the flu in 2019 in Canada. Yet, an Ontario page about the Flu shot claims that 3,500 die in Canada each year from the flu (https://www.ontario.ca/page/flu-facts ).
The numbers are exaggerated so people will get the flu shot and it is this exaggeration that I believe make people think that the COVID numbers are also being exaggerated by health officials and the media.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/magazine/2020/10/26/gene-weingarten-divided-country-healing/?arc404=true
I agree there is the potential for over-reporting and undoubtedly that will have occurred to some degree with Covid-19. However, a comparison of excess deaths against Covid-19 deaths shows that in almost all countries there have been more excess deaths in 2020 than the official Covid-19 ones - strongly suggesting that under-reporting of Covid-19 is a greater problem than over-reporting. You can look at individual country data here. In the US for instance there were 275,000 excess deaths between 1 March and 16 August, compared to 169,000 attributed to Covid-19.
I'd like to agree. I think a fine is "fine" in most cases. But if it's egregious enough like someone throwing a 60 person party you have to consider something a bit more excessive possibly.
At any rate, the problem with fines being the only punitive measure makes it where there's no rules for the rich because a fine means nothing to some people.
Wealthy defendants couldn’t care less about fines (and a millionaire with a $500 fine really couldn’t care less), then they’re not actually being deprived of anything in consequence of their violation of law.
There shouldn't NEED to be fines for this. As I have mentioned half a dozen times, in the United States, there is a common sign posted on the doors of most gas stations (for whatever reason) that reads "no shirt, no shoes, no service". Meaning, unless you are wearing clothes and some type of footwear, you aren't going to be able to use the services or buy the products offered at the gas station. I have never, in 38 years, seen someone look at this sign, get indignant about being told what to do, rip off their shirt, and kick their sneakers off. Ever.
But that is basically what has happened for some people with masks. And there is only one explanation for it in my view. They (completely incorrectly) view wearing a mask as some kind of totem of opposition to Trump. It isn't, literally NO liberals are wearing a mask to piss off conservatives. But they absolutely see it this way. Because they have to. Because to admit masks are necessary is to admit the virus is in fact, real and deadly. And to admit that is to admit that Trump's response from January all the way to today was a historic failure. They are incapable of doing that. People wearing masks is a constant reminder that they supported a man who basically left the country to burn. And they'd rather let untold excess numbers of people die than admit that. The refusal of 25% of the population to take this seriously for even a single second is ENTIRELY a political problem engineered by right-wing propaganda which was deployed for the benefit of the President.
May I suggest the possibility that you are over-simplifying this issue? For example, in my country there are people who don't wear masks. And in other countries, we see the same situation. By your logic, and your words, these people "view wearing a mask as some kind of totem opposition to Trump". Please explain how this is even possible in other countries, where people didn't vote for Trump.
The problem is that the government cannot legally make them mandatory except for inside official government or institution locations. This made it such that all government communication so far has been that masks are optional but highly recommended. Mixed messages, and now it got worse since finally a law is somewhat in place for the institutions people just do not understand what is needed.
No one is talking about people out for a walk or strolling the beach. In this country, we had 10s of thousands of people packing into bars for an entire weekend at a motorcycle rally, which caused a massive outbreak all over the midwest 3 weeks later. Every day there is a new video of someone in a store throwing a temper tantrum because they've been asked to wear a face covering while shopping.
Half my own family on my mom's side turned their social media posts about our normal Memorial Day gathering (which they were pissed half of us declined to attend for obvious reasons) into an anti-mask statement of purpose. Even AFTER my aunt explicitly told my other aunt she stayed away because her granddaughter is a frickin' cancer patient, they STILL assumed the reason was to shame them about their political views. This pandemic has made it nearly impossible to respect half my extended family. I tried, but I'm just done. Every attempt at outreach has been met with nothing but doubling down on the idea that the virus and everyone's reaction to it was a plot to destroy Trump's reelection, and even a child with pediatric cancer isn't a reasonable excuse to not attend large gatherings. It's not just refusal to wear masks. It's a steadfast belief that no one else should be either.
This also ties into the asinine American view of what "personal freedom" is, which can now basically be boiled down to "I'll do whatever I want regardless of how it affects anyone else". It's not even about personal choice anymore. It's a desire to avoid personal responsibility for anything whatsoever. Which, again, is quite rich coming from a party who made the phrase a bumper sticker slogan for decades.
I keep being reminded of the shit-fit smokers threw when we finally moved smoking out out of all indoor public places. Convinced they were the real victims, not the innocent bystanders and workers whose health they had been jeopardizing for decades.
He got the vaccine before healthcare workers and the general public could - and is still out lying about the pandemic.
This is exactly what I said would happen. Disgusting.
Kay let’s be clear, most trans people are not mentally ill, just normal people, this is not about trans. Just thought it would be worth mentioning. I am talking about those poor unfortunates that live outside the system because no one cares about them because no one understands the mentally ill.
In a way I am grateful somewhat, I had been without a purpose the last month and nine days. Not sure I can fight this fight but I have a little time right now so... gonna give it a go.
Mental illnesses are one of the primary causes of homelessness, making it harder to hold down work and manage day-to-day affairs. Mental health care is incredibly expensive in this country, so a lot of folks do not get treated and end up on the streets, where coping is even harder and people get exposed to illicit drugs, sex work, and violence, in addition to the ordinary challenges of homelessness: "How sick will I get if I eat this burger out of the garbage?" "Where can I sleep when it drops below freezing again?" "If I ask for help is someone going to call the police on me?" "Where do I shower?" "Do I buy a pair of socks or do I spend my last dollar on food?"
And, of course, the more heartbreaking question, "How do I feed my kids?" Not every member of the homeless population is single or childless.
At my first trans support meeting, a sweet older woman named Pauline made a beeline for me after the meeting to offer me emotional support (she smelled the egg on me when I took ages to answer a question about my pronouns; she could tell I was nervous and new to the scene). She'd been through the ringer, transitioning while homeless and overcoming substance abuse she ran into when she was on the streets. Maybe half the trans people I know have experience physical abuse or sexual assault or both, and several have resorted to sex work to make ends meet. A few have run into drugs, and nearly all of them are low-income. My mentor is the only high-earning trans person I know.
It's not all bad. Being trans doesn't automatically ruin your life; it just dramatically increases the odds that any given disaster can happen, and they tend to multiply.
It's kind of a spiraling effect. Be trans, get assaulted. Get assaulted, fight back. Fight back, go to jail. Go to jail, lose your job. Lose your job, sell your body. Sell your body, get addicted. Get addicted, run out of money. Run out of money, stop going to the doctor. Stop going to the doctor, get sick. On top of that, your friends and family abandon you.
You are now disabled, homeless, broke, and alone. You have years of labor ahead of you before you can get back to a normal life. Who's going to help you when you're breaking down? Who's going to convince you not to commit suicide when you see no other way out?
That's why these things tend to run together; every problem exacerbates the other ones. And solving them costs money, but you make minimum wage and rent is sky-high and you need to fix your car and your debt still needs to be paid off and you can't delay seeing the doctor forever.
And that's why trans folks like you tend to gravitate towards charity work, Michelle.
I used to work at my local homeless shelter and it was very enjoyable work. I wrote resumes and helped teach computer skills. Anyone could have done my job, really. One of the things I learned there was that making the world a better place is as simple as getting basic resources to people who don't have them.
I encourage you to get involved. Volunteering can be very rewarding and fun.
I live in a warm, loving environment and I can't express how valuable it is. I know people who get verbal abuse almost every day, but I am in a safe place and life is so much easier where I am. More than once, I've wished I could bring folks from my community and let them live with me.
My girlfriend's dad helped me change out my car battery today, just because I needed help. He grilled us some burgers in the evening. And from morning to night, my girlfriend has been hugging and smooching me just because we walked past each other or happened to make eye contact when we were on our computers.
Life as a trans person can be pretty damn amazing, too.
While this is true, it's a general point rather than something specific to Covid-19. The executive can't in general change the law unilaterally - changes in law are the function of the legislative body (Congress).
One of the problems in the US is that there has been so little agreement between political parties on how to respond to the pandemic. That's not been the case in most countries - while there are always fringe opinions, in most places it has been possible to form a consensus about the best way to govern (and to put that into law).
In the US, the level of disagreement has been such that there is not even a consensus about what the issues are - much less on how best to solve them. I can certainly understand people taking very different views about how you prioritize different factors (like personal freedom, health and economic success). I don't though really understand how so many people in the wider political system can take the position that some of those factors are not real - I suppose I just find it hard to fathom how people with a conspiracy theory mentality ended up in charge of a system they didn't believe in ...
It's obviously a ridiculous concept and total desperation play - but some are advocating for it. Like Rasmussen Polling.
It's pretty absurd that Rasmussen is still taken seriously as a legitimate source of polling data when they are now literally calling for the Vice President to initiate a coup on the floor of the Senate on January 6, 2021. Again, aside from Mitt Romney and Larry Hogan (Governor of Maryland), every so-called "reasonable" Republican is, at the very least, playing footsie with this shit under the table.
Message 2/4 reads:
Also,
Rep Louie Gohmert (R-Moscow) sued Pence in Federal Court in Texas (where McConnell has packed the courts with insane far right wingers)
The Electoral Count Act of 1887 requires the vice president to affirm the winner of the elections, in a largely ceremonial capacity. Gohmert wants this law declared unconstitutional so that Pence can just pick who Pence wants to be President. The move would effectively ensure that Trump returns to office despite losing the election to Biden.
A number of Republican officials joined the suit, including Kelli Ward, chairwoman of the Arizona Republican Party.
https://news.yahoo.com/rep-gohmert-sues-pence-last-192151675.html
So we have yet another coup attempt by the anti-American Republican party.
Sorry, can’t see any of this happening. It would be suicide for the country, another civil war. No court official has been open to any of these claims for more than a month and a half. It won’t happen. Fear is the mind killer, don’t spread fear please, we have enough right now. There would be war in the streets if this happened, it won’t. The government denying the will of the people? Not bloody likely. It would be political suicide for them, after we overthrew the government it might be even worse. Won’t happen. I did an extensive paper on the French Revolution way back when, deny the people their voice and it will get uglier than you could imagine. It will not happen, ask Amy Coney Barret how far she is willing to go for the man who put her in office, answer to this point, not very far. The writing is on the wall, they could recoup, figure out what happened. They have known for some time how they are lagging though right, known for a while and that is why they are willing to take thug tactics. They could order everyone involved in their loss of power executed, metaphorically speaking, and go from there. Or what I think will happen, they will pull the blinds and pretend it didn’t happen. Trump is a criminal, he won’t be allowed to retire to the pasture, he has done too much. This will not be a good year to be Donald Trump. So they will disassociate with him.
The way I see it anyway.
Gohmert and the Republican party are attacking
the Americann system of government. There have been multiple attempts. Just because the attempts have failed - so far - doesn't mean we should not recognize and fear what is happening.
There's no special reason the United States is immune to fascism when other democracies have fallen to it before. We only stay a democracy as long as we are committed to staying a democracy, and I don't know if we've ever had this many people be opposed to the very concept of elections themselves.
We're not out of the woods yet. Trump has not given up, and he is not the only one fighting this, he has lots of people on his side.
He's failing right now because he doesn't have enough legal grounds to overturn the results in court. But that can be changed; the GOP can always put more partisan and less qualified people in charge. What happens when a different president who's better prepared and more competent takes the same case to a more partisan court?
What specifically is stopping him? And will it hold strong forever?
Yep, I wish I could be optimistic about the GOP, and see them actually disassociating from Trump. But it appears to be the opposite of the case. I don't think there's much risk of Trump stealing the election here at the 11th hour.
What's clearly happening, in my opinion, is that Trump is going to use these false claims about the election to remain the vocal head of the GOP when he's out of power. And almost nobody in the Republican party seems interested in trying to prevent this. I suspect we're going to see him hosting rallies once again, attempting to flood the media with his presence as much as possible, going to opine on every issue of the day. And he's going to maintain the mantle of being the GOP frontrunner for the next presidential nomination.
What this means is that we're going to have four years of GOP leadership being in lockstep that Biden isn't legitimate. This means no serious compromise on any issue. This means a minority, but large group, of the population continuing to believe this. And what it really means is a longer term erosion of our democracy's capacity to function.
So far from being something that we think will just fade away, I think we do need to be alarmed about it. And, as much as people can, voice how reprehensible this behavior is.
The true power in Republican politics is still Mitch McConnell. Unlike Trump, he doesn't give a rat's ass about his approval rating. He knows he can get reelected in Kentucky even with approval ratings in the 30s simply by not having a D after his name. He does the bidding of big business every time, and this will be no different. A $2000.00 check can't go out, because it would mean admitting that government can, in fact, help people. Their entire project is to make sure people think that isn't the case.