I seriously wonder: are you, folks who say that writing in DOS games is somehow of a bad quality, indeed aware of the actual story and writing after 1st chapters of each game? Eg. In DOS 1 EE only 20% of players found Icara's cabin. And the main story, the actual- and very grim- events starts developing only after that. Only less than 10% of players found a way to handle Tenebrium, and without it you can't understand the core aspects of the story as you simply can't access the appropriate areas.
Does this narrative about writing and goofiness come from first 2-5 hours in the game, something you maybe didn't like and dropped the game because of it, and then read in a review or an opinion about "bad writing "?
On a side note, since both DOS games don't give players a clue about the actual serious events happening in the world until after the big 1st chapter is over, or even later, don't be afraid that a potential illithid in a teaser is a spoiler for a story. An npc or a fraction- probably, but most likely not even close to the main story.
No this doesn't apply to me. I put in 356 hours into D:OS1EE and accessed every single area and every single questline. And I finished the game. I truly wanted to give it a chance. But I hated every minute of those 356 hours - ok maybe not all of it but definitely most of it.
@kanisatha seems like a damn waste of 356 hours doing something you mostly hated... seems to me that you are exaggerating just a little bit maybe. I would never do something I hate for 356 hours.
I seriously wonder: are you, folks who say that writing in DOS games is somehow of a bad quality, indeed aware of the actual story and writing after 1st chapters of each game? Eg. In DOS 1 EE only 20% of players found Icara's cabin. And the main story, the actual- and very grim- events starts developing only after that. Only less than 10% of players found a way to handle Tenebrium, and without it you can't understand the core aspects of the story as you simply can't access the appropriate areas.
Does this narrative about writing and goofiness come from first 2-5 hours in the game, something you maybe didn't like and dropped the game because of it, and then read in a review or an opinion about "bad writing "?
On a side note, since both DOS games don't give players a clue about the actual serious events happening in the world until after the big 1st chapter is over, or even later, don't be afraid that a potential illithid in a teaser is a spoiler for a story. An npc or a fraction- probably, but most likely not even close to the main story.
It’s bad writing to not be able to hook the player within the first 20 - 30 minutes of gameplay with the story IMO.
I am one of those 80% and I haven’t picked up D:OS2 yet because of it. I think I tried restarting the game 3 or 4 times but there are a lot of elements of the game that don’t appeal to me.
pillars had this issue as well. there is no real goal until the end of act 1. before that your meandering with no real purpose. unlike say pst where the tattoo gives you the first bread crumbs on where to go.
or fallout 1 , 2 and new Vegas that give you a task before you leave the starting town.
arcanum gives you the ring and tells you to find a boy.
and both baldurs gate have a clear starting goal. bg 1 go to Nashkel. bg 2 escape the dungeon then get imoen back.
if you don't have a clear goal when you start an rpg in atlest the first hour then it is bad pacing.
Hmm, I understand it's impossible to demand from everyone to like something I like myself. That's ok. There're plenty of people who think BG2 is meh.
I thought DOS 1 gave a clear goal when I started it - it was just that when I advanced in the quest it became clear the issue is much grimmer and bigger.
To those who are not excited, - just wait and see, I guess. But don't write off the game yet, and don't write it off because of one or two aspects (if, according to this thread, god forbid they're using one of the old NPCs in this or that way in a story).
Hmm, I understand it's impossible to demand from everyone to like something I like myself. That's ok. There're plenty of people who think BG2 is meh.
I thought DOS 1 gave a clear goal when I started it - it was just that when I advanced in the quest it became clear the issue is much grimmer and bigger.
To those who are not excited, - just wait and see, I guess. But don't write off the game yet, and don't write it off because of one or two aspects (if, according to this thread, god forbid they're using one of the old NPCs in this or that way in a story).
It’s not the goal I am talking about, but the hook or suspense that keeps you playing:
Baldur’s Gate you watch your father be murdered after you felled your home for mysterious reasons.
Baldur’s Gate 2 you escape a dungeon only to have your best friend from childhood kidnapped as you reach daylight.
Fallout 4 (for all its faults) you watch your son being taken away from you and your partner shot in the head.
Mass Effect you see a rogue agent attack a human settlement stealing unknown technology that could advance the humanity further.
Mass Effect 2 you literally die and are resurrected while the compound you are in gets attacked.
PoE2 it actually happens in the opening credits of your castle being destroyed by a god inhabiting a giant statue, almost killing you in the process.
FO:NV you are shot and left for dead by three assailants.
RDR2 you are leading a gang through a blizzard after a job had gone wrong and their and your survival depends on finding shelter and food while evading the pinkertons.
All these are examples are of story hooks that happen within the first half hour of game play and without wading through a city filled with NPCs and other quest givers and items before reaching that paramount turning point or other pointless banter to get the story moving.
But I am literally in a wait and see mode. I am excited for the title, but that excitement will dissipate quickly if it doesn’t live up to my expectations when more information is released.
@kanisatha seems like a damn waste of 356 hours doing something you mostly hated... seems to me that you are exaggerating just a little bit maybe. I would never do something I hate for 356 hours.
Feel free to believe what you want. I'm a completionist and leaving something I started unfinished goes against my nature. The hours are what are on my steam account, but yes some percentage of those hours are non-playing hours. As an older gamer I have a lot of other things going on in my life so often I just leave my game up on my machine and go do other things before returning to my game.
Hmm, I understand it's impossible to demand from everyone to like something I like myself. That's ok. There're plenty of people who think BG2 is meh.
I thought DOS 1 gave a clear goal when I started it - it was just that when I advanced in the quest it became clear the issue is much grimmer and bigger.
To those who are not excited, - just wait and see, I guess. But don't write off the game yet, and don't write it off because of one or two aspects (if, according to this thread, god forbid they're using one of the old NPCs in this or that way in a story).
It’s not the goal I am talking about, but the hook or suspense that keeps you playing:
Baldur’s Gate you watch your father be murdered after you felled your home for mysterious reasons.
Baldur’s Gate 2 you escape a dungeon only to have your best friend from childhood kidnapped as you reach daylight.
Fallout 4 (for all its faults) you watch your son being taken away from you and your partner shot in the head.
Mass Effect you see a rogue agent attack a human settlement stealing unknown technology that could advance the humanity further.
Mass Effect 2 you literally die and are resurrected while the compound you are in gets attacked.
PoE2 it actually happens in the opening credits of your castle being destroyed by a god inhabiting a giant statue, almost killing you in the process.
FO:NV you are shot and left for dead by three assailants.
RDR2 you are leading a gang through a blizzard after a job had gone wrong and their and your survival depends on finding shelter and food while evading the pinkertons.
All these are examples are of story hooks that happen within the first half hour of game play and without wading through a city filled with NPCs and other quest givers and items before reaching that paramount turning point or other pointless banter to get the story moving.
But I am literally in a wait and see mode. I am excited for the title, but that excitement will dissipate quickly if it doesn’t live up to my expectations when more information is released.
arcanum; you survive a blimp crash and a gnome asks you to give the boy his ring
dragon age orgins has 6 different openings
chrono trigger: the girl you were with at the fair gets transported to the past and you have to go rescue her.
ff6: raiding the city of Narshe
ff7: bombing the reactor
kotor1: the endar spire getttting attacked by the sith.
kotor 2: waking up in an abandon mineing colony having no idea why you are there
motb: wakeing up in a strange cave having no idea why you are there
planescape torment: wakeing up in a mortuary having no....yes i did this on purpose.
arcanum; you survive a blimp crash and a gnome asks you to give the boy his ring
dragon age orgins has 6 different openings
chrono trigger: the girl you were with at the fair gets transported to the past and you have to go rescue her.
ff6: raiding the city of Narshe
ff7: bombing the reactor
kotor1: the endar spire getttting attacked by the sith.
kotor 2: waking up in an abandon mineing colony having no idea why you are there
motb: wakeing up in a strange cave having no idea why you are there
planescape torment: wakeing up in a mortuary having no....yes i did this on purpose.
these are just some more.
I'm not quite sure what you're arguing here. In almost all of those examples, the "opening hook" isnt significantly revelatory of the whole plot.
The actual moment in which the greater plot is revealed in most of those games happens later. In the Shinra building in FF7 (And there's an argument that even then, it is only really revealed in the Secret Temple). On Dantooine in KOTOR 1, Dragon Age's story doesnt reveal itself until Loghain does what he does.
FWIW, I think D:OS2's opening act (Fort Joy) is absolutely incredible. No other part of the game was as enjoyable to me as that.
I seriously wonder: are you, folks who say that writing in DOS games is somehow of a bad quality, indeed aware of the actual story and writing after 1st chapters of each game? Eg. In DOS 1 EE only 20% of players found Icara's cabin. And the main story, the actual- and very grim- events starts developing only after that. Only less than 10% of players found a way to handle Tenebrium, and without it you can't understand the core aspects of the story as you simply can't access the appropriate areas.
Does this narrative about writing and goofiness come from first 2-5 hours in the game, something you maybe didn't like and dropped the game because of it, and then read in a review or an opinion about "bad writing "?
On a side note, since both DOS games don't give players a clue about the actual serious events happening in the world until after the big 1st chapter is over, or even later, don't be afraid that a potential illithid in a teaser is a spoiler for a story. An npc or a fraction- probably, but most likely not even close to the main story.
It’s bad writing to not be able to hook the player within the first 20 - 30 minutes of gameplay with the story IMO.
I am one of those 80% and I haven’t picked up D:OS2 yet because of it. I think I tried restarting the game 3 or 4 times but there are a lot of elements of the game that don’t appeal to me.
I mean, BG1 kept you in the dark for a long time. But it was a masterpiece. I can imagine someone giving up before going to Cloakwood criticizing the game later - "the story sucked, halfway through the game I didn't even get to fight any of the Zhentarim behind the Iron Crisis"
The plot is all there though and almost forced on you. You actually meet Zhents (monty and Xzar) in the first area also investigating the trouble of the region. You solve the Nashkel mining problem. You then track down the bandit camp, which leads the player to cloakwood, which then finally reveals the Iron Throne as the culprit where you can now travel Baldur's Gate. All the while, every step the player takes, they get accosted by bounty hunters who are tied to the first two you meet in Candlekeep and the ones that killed your father. You are kept in the dark about everything but the breadcrumbs are there for a player to follow. All done without 5 minute cutscenes either. The iron crisis is an undertone story, the bandit raids that closes the roads (and all the Chill bandits you fight along the way) brings the story conflict and energy.
I don't know what people are referring to with Divinity: Original Sin (the first one) not having a strong plot-hook in the first part of the game. You are CLEARLY in town to solve a murder, and if you know anything about how Larian got started with Divine Divinity, you know they are just as much influenced by the world building of Ultima VII, and the beginning of Original Sin is a direct call-back to how that game starts out, which is being tasked with finding out why stable-hand and gargoyle were ritualistically murdered. As far as in-game whodunits go, the one at the beginning of Original Sin is far better than most.
I'm one of those people that couldn't pass past the first 10% of the game in D:OS1... I have to confess that I wanted to, and really wanted to... I liked the setting and the art and the story, mostly... but I *hated* the combat. I feel ashamed to admit it, that I disliked the combat/gameplay of the game... is not *just* the fact that it's turn based IMO, but the fact that it seems to me, that combat is too slow... too time consuming, with fights with tons of opponents that take AGES for turns to pass... and where your available moves felt lackluster often (to me.)
What really ticked me off from the game was the boss fight at the end of the graveyard/chapel in the first stage of the game, with the big "skeleton" dude... it was a long slog of about ~30 mins of turn after turn after turn (IIRC there were no less than 9 opponent in that fight at the start and they often summoned extra bodies), and hey... I'm finally beating this fight!? Nice! No matter that I had to use 1 or 2 of those pretty precious scrolls of revival, and poof, the boss re-summons again all/most of the opponents that I wasted so many resources killing for 30 mins and from the outlook I had, was really really looking as it I was going to end up losing it and would had to do it all over again. I was playing only in normal/standard/whatever it was called. I then closed the game, and never launched it again...
I still would want to give it a second chance, but IMHO it was really badly balanced. Perhaps there would be some mods now that could fix those issues for me now, but I never properly researched the mod scene in D:OS... this was still with the Classic edition, way before they released the Enhanced Edition... perhaps the game balance is different now, never played the EE of D:OS.
Funnily enough, I often feel the same about later DnD titles like NWN and NWN2 too, of their combat gameplay and encounter design decisions... they are way more shallow gameplay-wise and tedious combat-wise than any of the BG titles ever.
I really hope that if they end up doing something with BG saga that the combat doesn't end up feeling like that I'd hate to have to give it a pass
Still, I recognize and respect the fact that D:OS1 and 2 are one of the best RPGs to come out in the recent times... it's just, the combat system is too slow for me.
As for Pillars 1, in my case, I also dropped it around the time I got to the city and had access to Caed Nua... in that case, the game seemed intriguing and mostly well balanced (too well balanced...) it was just the combat was too repetitive with no need for different tactics, no interesting items, much of the loot were mostly generic/boring, and the dialogue interactions were sometimes jarring/out of character to the point that I had to stop playing at one time, just because none of the dialogue options were satisfying/appropriate and I didn't want to break character... but it wasn't that that drove me out of it, it was a crash on a hard fight in the city that corrupted my save to the point I wasn't able to continue from it after dying, and facing the fact that I'd had to rollback to a previous checkpoint and lose several hours of progress... I just didn't had it me anymore, I guess.
In both cases, I didn't bought the second games in the series... I don't personally often like to play second installments in a series, without having first finished the first one, so I never felt teh need to buy them, I guess... maybe one day, if I have time I'll finish both and give the second game in the series (for both series) a chance.
I don't know what people are referring to with Divinity: Original Sin (the first one) not having a strong plot-hook in the first part of the game. You are CLEARLY in town to solve a murder, and if you know anything about how Larian got started with Divine Divinity, you know they are just as much influenced by the world building of Ultima VII, and the beginning of Original Sin is a direct call-back to how that game starts out, which is being tasked with finding out why stable-hand and gargoyle were ritualistically murdered. As far as in-game whodunits go, the one at the beginning of Original Sin is far better than most.
But why does the player care about the murder? Because the game says so is a weak excuse. There is no player connection to the person who was murdered.
edit: I'll just add that I am very fickle with story telling in game especially RPGs.
I don't know what people are referring to with Divinity: Original Sin (the first one) not having a strong plot-hook in the first part of the game. You are CLEARLY in town to solve a murder, and if you know anything about how Larian got started with Divine Divinity, you know they are just as much influenced by the world building of Ultima VII, and the beginning of Original Sin is a direct call-back to how that game starts out, which is being tasked with finding out why stable-hand and gargoyle were ritualistically murdered. As far as in-game whodunits go, the one at the beginning of Original Sin is far better than most.
But why does the player care about the murder? Because the game says so is a weak excuse. There is no player connection to the person who was murdered.
edit: I'll just add that I am very fickle with story telling in game especially RPGs.
Why does a player care about Gorion in BG1? You know him for like, a minute tops, then he's gone. Why anyone care about any plot hook or any character in any game? You have no real connection to ANY of them in the opening hour or so of any game.
How invested you are ina ny given character or plot hook in the opening of any game probably has more to do with how willing you are to put yourself into the game you are playing, than any actual reason the any game puts forth.
- The visuals were not very impressive. They were, if anything, cute. The landscapes and buildings looked a bit like claymation. Like a little model landscape you might see in a ministure war reenactments, or model train sets. With their little selection circles, all the actors are based like miniatures in a tabletop game.
I disagree with this. I think the graphics were amazing for their time and they have aged very well.
I still remember the first time I saw this map and how amazed I was:
There is something unique about this kind of 2d rendering that can't be reproduced in all these spiritual successors that use a 3d engine.
Pardon my ignorance Lefreut, but which area's map is this?
Actually, for as much as Baldur's Gate throws you in on the low-level once you're on your own, the initial cut-scene with Gorion and Sarevok is some pretty high-level shit. It was necessary to ground the story after that in something as mundane as the Iron Crisis, and gradually move your way up from Kobolds, to Gnolls, to Bandits before things start getting more serious. It is the perfect low-level problem for a budding adventurer to take on.
- The visuals were not very impressive. They were, if anything, cute. The landscapes and buildings looked a bit like claymation. Like a little model landscape you might see in a ministure war reenactments, or model train sets. With their little selection circles, all the actors are based like miniatures in a tabletop game.
I disagree with this. I think the graphics were amazing for their time and they have aged very well.
I still remember the first time I saw this map and how amazed I was:
There is something unique about this kind of 2d rendering that can't be reproduced in all these spiritual successors that use a 3d engine.
Pardon my ignorance Lefreut, but which area's map is this?
I don't know what people are referring to with Divinity: Original Sin (the first one) not having a strong plot-hook in the first part of the game. You are CLEARLY in town to solve a murder, and if you know anything about how Larian got started with Divine Divinity, you know they are just as much influenced by the world building of Ultima VII, and the beginning of Original Sin is a direct call-back to how that game starts out, which is being tasked with finding out why stable-hand and gargoyle were ritualistically murdered. As far as in-game whodunits go, the one at the beginning of Original Sin is far better than most.
But why does the player care about the murder? Because the game says so is a weak excuse. There is no player connection to the person who was murdered.
edit: I'll just add that I am very fickle with story telling in game especially RPGs.
dos 1 was inspired by ultima 7. which also started with a murder. thats the only explanation i can see.
I don't know what people are referring to with Divinity: Original Sin (the first one) not having a strong plot-hook in the first part of the game. You are CLEARLY in town to solve a murder, and if you know anything about how Larian got started with Divine Divinity, you know they are just as much influenced by the world building of Ultima VII, and the beginning of Original Sin is a direct call-back to how that game starts out, which is being tasked with finding out why stable-hand and gargoyle were ritualistically murdered. As far as in-game whodunits go, the one at the beginning of Original Sin is far better than most.
But why does the player care about the murder? Because the game says so is a weak excuse. There is no player connection to the person who was murdered.
edit: I'll just add that I am very fickle with story telling in game especially RPGs.
Why does the gorion ward care able what's happening in sword coast and the mines? Because the game says so... That very reasoning literally exist in all these games...
Actually, for as much as Baldur's Gate throws you in on the low-level once you're on your own, the initial cut-scene with Gorion and Sarevok is some pretty high-level shit. It was necessary to ground the story after that in something as mundane as the Iron Crisis, and gradually move your way up from Kobolds, to Gnolls, to Bandits before things start getting more serious. It is the perfect low-level problem for a budding adventurer to take on.
Mc wouldn't know that, you as the player only even knows that because you're watching it all as a third party spectator who already knows there is a larger context to everything.
The mc wouldn't even know 1/3rd the stuff we know especially at the very beginning.
even in table top rpgs which do give you alot of freedom your supposed to fallow the story the dm is giveing you. bg 1 has you lost in the wilderness having never been out there. gorion told you to go to the friendly arm inn if you ever got separated. there is the bread crumb. going there leads to you meeting jaheria and khalid that leads you to the mines and then the story starts. you need bread crumbs or the whole story in any rpg is gonna fall apart.
I think it's rather odd that some of you can RP a reason for a paladin CHARNAME to allow breaking into people's homes in BG, but not a reason to investigate a murder. The idea that maybe you knew the victim somehow goes right over your heads. A strong sense of justice runs through your veins, maybe. There could be a number of reasons for you to be involved.
I used this as an easy example. The point being that you sometimes need to RP the gaps in story, give yourself(as the character) reasons for whatever isn't made clear. Less of this is better, though, I admit.
On a side note, I liked the way Temple of Elemental Evil had different opening vignettes and goals for each alignment. They all circled around the same overall goal, but from differing perspectives. It gave each alignment a logical reason to be there. I doubt Gorion would have allowed a CE assassin under his care to practice their trade within Candlekeep for long. Yet there it is, every character no matter alignment or class gets the same treatment.
even in table top rpgs which do give you alot of freedom your supposed to fallow the story the dm is giveing you. bg 1 has you lost in the wilderness having never been out there. gorion told you to go to the friendly arm inn if you ever got separated. there is the bread crumb. going there leads to you meeting jaheria and khalid that leads you to the mines and then the story starts. you need bread crumbs or the whole story in any rpg is gonna fall apart.
Now let me tell you why this is contrived and logically makes little sense...
You've been in that keep your entire life and to the best of my memory sense its been a while sense I've played bg 1, no one outside that keep knows who you are and mc never left the keep before then.
Even if I give reasonable doubt that gorion wrote to be long before to tell them what day they were coming. Neither Khalid or jaheria would know who you are or even who to look for beyond gorion.
2. Even if again I assume that they taught him how to hunt and navigate the woods despite never leaving the keep... Gorion's ward literally witnessed the murder of his father and nearly escaped it himself. The level of trusting he shouldn't be of anyone, ESPECIALLY WHEN HE DOESN'T KNOW THEM. Even if gorion mentions them by name he is far... FAR too trusting especially when I have no reason to believe that gorion ever mentioned them before that very moment.
3. And this my most annoying one...let me get this straight, he's lost in the woods but was able to navigate through them, get out of the woods, to the main roAd, and to the inn all in a timely info manner that Khalid and jaheria wouldn't have gotten a little worried about their friend not showing up within whatever known time frame it actually takes to travel from the town to candle keep even taking into a one or two day delay due to unseen changes? All while he spent his entire life in that keep?
I'm a country boy who grew up running in and out of woods. I didn't even begin to learn how to move along the woods of my own state without getting lost in them once or twice, ending up on the other end of them and getting my *beep* beat for it as a kid. But it took me constantly doing it again and again to realize where I was at and where I was going.
4. It would literally, after witnessing his father's death, for him to go back to the very place he just let, the place he knows have guards, mages, and people he grew up with, help take care of him and help protect and teach him for help first. I literally don't even remember why we couldn't even return to the keep once we were free to travel around...
Anyone who says this don't know what video GAME is. The mechanics will ALWAYS be more important then the story will ever be. The majority of people will play a game with a God awful story but fun as heck mechanics, majority won't force themselves through a game they don't find fun at all just because they like the story. We read comics, books, and watch movies, and tv if we just care about a good story.a games most important aspect is it's play.
Confirmed or not, the fact that Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights and their sequels, including Planescape torment are coming out on the Switch and other consoles is rather suspicious. This is what happened before Capcom released Mega Man 11, they released Mega Man 1-10 on the consoles too.
Candlekeep has a monthy interweb subscription which enabled Gorion to build a Macegrimoir group with Jaheira. Instant Scrying is just so handy nowadays.
You can return to the keep, you just can't enter without a notable tome to donate to the library. The guards even admit they know who you are and that you grew up there as Gorion's ward. I find it disturbing that they seem completely unconcerned about his murder.
Edit: it seems more likely your presence would be demanded in the keep as a witness to the attack. If you didn't return immediately, to the closest safety and the only home you've known, would be suspicious back in Candlekeep.
I think folks are onto something about a game needing an early hook to make the player excited to keep playing. I keep trying to put my finger on why I can never get very far into D:OS. Out of several attempts to get started in it, one thing I keep finding myself thinking is "Oh no, after the first tutorial dungeon, I'm going to have to spend a whole evening long play session slogging my way through that murder mystery in Cyseal, *again*. Ugh. Pass.
I would add to the list of exciting early game hooks that still make me smile when I think about them:
-Might and Magic 6: You watch an exciting cinematic where your home town is destroyed by a red dragon and an army of demons. Your mentor teleports you across the world to a small town, but instead of being safe, your new home is overrun with goblins and evil mages. How will you survive?
-Might and Magic 7: You win a contest and are awarded your own castle! Oops, it's overrun with goblins and giant rats. The town in which your castle sits is under attack by an army of goblins. You want to keep the castle, you defeat the goblin invaders. Then you find out your newly stabilized lands are in the middle of disputed territory between warring humans and elves. What will you do? Whose side will you take?
-Might and Magic 8: The trade caravan you were guarding has shipwrecked on an island overrun by pirates. You need to get back to the mainland to survive. Getting home to Ravenshore will require fighting through wave after wave of attacking pirates, and then travelling underground through an ancient temple infested with deadly traps, poisonous snakes, and yuan-ti. How will you ever survive and return to the mainland?
That is vastly improved in DOS2: you find yourself on the way to your prison, or even an execution place. Then this ship you are on is getting destroyed and only the involvement of gods help you. But you were not the only one who was saved by gods. That is among the best hooks there can ever be.
Not saying DOS1 start didn't hook me, - I'm actually of the opposite view, - just pointing out that the start of DOS2 which I have seen is simply mind-blowing and right there among with the start of DAO as good starts. This is a clear indication the second game shows the devs improved on their previous attempt. This is why I am excited to think how that can be further improved in the next game.
Comments
No this doesn't apply to me. I put in 356 hours into D:OS1EE and accessed every single area and every single questline. And I finished the game. I truly wanted to give it a chance. But I hated every minute of those 356 hours - ok maybe not all of it but definitely most of it.
pillars had this issue as well. there is no real goal until the end of act 1. before that your meandering with no real purpose. unlike say pst where the tattoo gives you the first bread crumbs on where to go.
or fallout 1 , 2 and new Vegas that give you a task before you leave the starting town.
arcanum gives you the ring and tells you to find a boy.
and both baldurs gate have a clear starting goal. bg 1 go to Nashkel. bg 2 escape the dungeon then get imoen back.
if you don't have a clear goal when you start an rpg in atlest the first hour then it is bad pacing.
I thought DOS 1 gave a clear goal when I started it - it was just that when I advanced in the quest it became clear the issue is much grimmer and bigger.
To those who are not excited, - just wait and see, I guess. But don't write off the game yet, and don't write it off because of one or two aspects (if, according to this thread, god forbid they're using one of the old NPCs in this or that way in a story).
It’s not the goal I am talking about, but the hook or suspense that keeps you playing:
Baldur’s Gate you watch your father be murdered after you felled your home for mysterious reasons.
Baldur’s Gate 2 you escape a dungeon only to have your best friend from childhood kidnapped as you reach daylight.
Fallout 4 (for all its faults) you watch your son being taken away from you and your partner shot in the head.
Mass Effect you see a rogue agent attack a human settlement stealing unknown technology that could advance the humanity further.
Mass Effect 2 you literally die and are resurrected while the compound you are in gets attacked.
PoE2 it actually happens in the opening credits of your castle being destroyed by a god inhabiting a giant statue, almost killing you in the process.
FO:NV you are shot and left for dead by three assailants.
RDR2 you are leading a gang through a blizzard after a job had gone wrong and their and your survival depends on finding shelter and food while evading the pinkertons.
All these are examples are of story hooks that happen within the first half hour of game play and without wading through a city filled with NPCs and other quest givers and items before reaching that paramount turning point or other pointless banter to get the story moving.
But I am literally in a wait and see mode. I am excited for the title, but that excitement will dissipate quickly if it doesn’t live up to my expectations when more information is released.
Feel free to believe what you want. I'm a completionist and leaving something I started unfinished goes against my nature. The hours are what are on my steam account, but yes some percentage of those hours are non-playing hours. As an older gamer I have a lot of other things going on in my life so often I just leave my game up on my machine and go do other things before returning to my game.
arcanum; you survive a blimp crash and a gnome asks you to give the boy his ring
dragon age orgins has 6 different openings
chrono trigger: the girl you were with at the fair gets transported to the past and you have to go rescue her.
ff6: raiding the city of Narshe
ff7: bombing the reactor
kotor1: the endar spire getttting attacked by the sith.
kotor 2: waking up in an abandon mineing colony having no idea why you are there
motb: wakeing up in a strange cave having no idea why you are there
planescape torment: wakeing up in a mortuary having no....yes i did this on purpose.
these are just some more.
I'm not quite sure what you're arguing here. In almost all of those examples, the "opening hook" isnt significantly revelatory of the whole plot.
The actual moment in which the greater plot is revealed in most of those games happens later. In the Shinra building in FF7 (And there's an argument that even then, it is only really revealed in the Secret Temple). On Dantooine in KOTOR 1, Dragon Age's story doesnt reveal itself until Loghain does what he does.
FWIW, I think D:OS2's opening act (Fort Joy) is absolutely incredible. No other part of the game was as enjoyable to me as that.
The plot is all there though and almost forced on you. You actually meet Zhents (monty and Xzar) in the first area also investigating the trouble of the region. You solve the Nashkel mining problem. You then track down the bandit camp, which leads the player to cloakwood, which then finally reveals the Iron Throne as the culprit where you can now travel Baldur's Gate. All the while, every step the player takes, they get accosted by bounty hunters who are tied to the first two you meet in Candlekeep and the ones that killed your father. You are kept in the dark about everything but the breadcrumbs are there for a player to follow. All done without 5 minute cutscenes either. The iron crisis is an undertone story, the bandit raids that closes the roads (and all the Chill bandits you fight along the way) brings the story conflict and energy.
What really ticked me off from the game was the boss fight at the end of the graveyard/chapel in the first stage of the game, with the big "skeleton" dude... it was a long slog of about ~30 mins of turn after turn after turn (IIRC there were no less than 9 opponent in that fight at the start and they often summoned extra bodies), and hey... I'm finally beating this fight!? Nice! No matter that I had to use 1 or 2 of those pretty precious scrolls of revival, and poof, the boss re-summons again all/most of the opponents that I wasted so many resources killing for 30 mins and from the outlook I had, was really really looking as it I was going to end up losing it and would had to do it all over again. I was playing only in normal/standard/whatever it was called. I then closed the game, and never launched it again...
I still would want to give it a second chance, but IMHO it was really badly balanced. Perhaps there would be some mods now that could fix those issues for me now, but I never properly researched the mod scene in D:OS... this was still with the Classic edition, way before they released the Enhanced Edition... perhaps the game balance is different now, never played the EE of D:OS.
Funnily enough, I often feel the same about later DnD titles like NWN and NWN2 too, of their combat gameplay and encounter design decisions... they are way more shallow gameplay-wise and tedious combat-wise than any of the BG titles ever.
I really hope that if they end up doing something with BG saga that the combat doesn't end up feeling like that
Still, I recognize and respect the fact that D:OS1 and 2 are one of the best RPGs to come out in the recent times... it's just, the combat system is too slow for me.
As for Pillars 1, in my case, I also dropped it around the time I got to the city and had access to Caed Nua... in that case, the game seemed intriguing and mostly well balanced (too well balanced...) it was just the combat was too repetitive with no need for different tactics, no interesting items, much of the loot were mostly generic/boring, and the dialogue interactions were sometimes jarring/out of character to the point that I had to stop playing at one time, just because none of the dialogue options were satisfying/appropriate and I didn't want to break character... but it wasn't that that drove me out of it, it was a crash on a hard fight in the city that corrupted my save to the point I wasn't able to continue from it after dying, and facing the fact that I'd had to rollback to a previous checkpoint and lose several hours of progress... I just didn't had it me anymore, I guess.
In both cases, I didn't bought the second games in the series... I don't personally often like to play second installments in a series, without having first finished the first one, so I never felt teh need to buy them, I guess... maybe one day, if I have time I'll finish both and give the second game in the series (for both series) a chance.
But why does the player care about the murder? Because the game says so is a weak excuse. There is no player connection to the person who was murdered.
edit: I'll just add that I am very fickle with story telling in game especially RPGs.
Why does a player care about Gorion in BG1? You know him for like, a minute tops, then he's gone. Why anyone care about any plot hook or any character in any game? You have no real connection to ANY of them in the opening hour or so of any game.
How invested you are ina ny given character or plot hook in the opening of any game probably has more to do with how willing you are to put yourself into the game you are playing, than any actual reason the any game puts forth.
Pardon my ignorance Lefreut, but which area's map is this?
Troll Mound at Druid Grove near Trademeet.
dos 1 was inspired by ultima 7. which also started with a murder. thats the only explanation i can see.
Why does the gorion ward care able what's happening in sword coast and the mines? Because the game says so... That very reasoning literally exist in all these games...
Your are being very cherry picky about that...
Mc wouldn't know that, you as the player only even knows that because you're watching it all as a third party spectator who already knows there is a larger context to everything.
The mc wouldn't even know 1/3rd the stuff we know especially at the very beginning.
On a side note, I liked the way Temple of Elemental Evil had different opening vignettes and goals for each alignment. They all circled around the same overall goal, but from differing perspectives. It gave each alignment a logical reason to be there. I doubt Gorion would have allowed a CE assassin under his care to practice their trade within Candlekeep for long. Yet there it is, every character no matter alignment or class gets the same treatment.
You've been in that keep your entire life and to the best of my memory sense its been a while sense I've played bg 1, no one outside that keep knows who you are and mc never left the keep before then.
Even if I give reasonable doubt that gorion wrote to be long before to tell them what day they were coming. Neither Khalid or jaheria would know who you are or even who to look for beyond gorion.
2. Even if again I assume that they taught him how to hunt and navigate the woods despite never leaving the keep... Gorion's ward literally witnessed the murder of his father and nearly escaped it himself. The level of trusting he shouldn't be of anyone, ESPECIALLY WHEN HE DOESN'T KNOW THEM. Even if gorion mentions them by name he is far... FAR too trusting especially when I have no reason to believe that gorion ever mentioned them before that very moment.
3. And this my most annoying one...let me get this straight, he's lost in the woods but was able to navigate through them, get out of the woods, to the main roAd, and to the inn all in a timely info manner that Khalid and jaheria wouldn't have gotten a little worried about their friend not showing up within whatever known time frame it actually takes to travel from the town to candle keep even taking into a one or two day delay due to unseen changes? All while he spent his entire life in that keep?
I'm a country boy who grew up running in and out of woods. I didn't even begin to learn how to move along the woods of my own state without getting lost in them once or twice, ending up on the other end of them and getting my *beep* beat for it as a kid. But it took me constantly doing it again and again to realize where I was at and where I was going.
4. It would literally, after witnessing his father's death, for him to go back to the very place he just let, the place he knows have guards, mages, and people he grew up with, help take care of him and help protect and teach him for help first. I literally don't even remember why we couldn't even return to the keep once we were free to travel around...
Anyone who says this don't know what video GAME is. The mechanics will ALWAYS be more important then the story will ever be. The majority of people will play a game with a God awful story but fun as heck mechanics, majority won't force themselves through a game they don't find fun at all just because they like the story. We read comics, books, and watch movies, and tv if we just care about a good story.a games most important aspect is it's play.
Edit: it seems more likely your presence would be demanded in the keep as a witness to the attack. If you didn't return immediately, to the closest safety and the only home you've known, would be suspicious back in Candlekeep.
I would add to the list of exciting early game hooks that still make me smile when I think about them:
-Might and Magic 6: You watch an exciting cinematic where your home town is destroyed by a red dragon and an army of demons. Your mentor teleports you across the world to a small town, but instead of being safe, your new home is overrun with goblins and evil mages. How will you survive?
-Might and Magic 7: You win a contest and are awarded your own castle! Oops, it's overrun with goblins and giant rats. The town in which your castle sits is under attack by an army of goblins. You want to keep the castle, you defeat the goblin invaders. Then you find out your newly stabilized lands are in the middle of disputed territory between warring humans and elves. What will you do? Whose side will you take?
-Might and Magic 8: The trade caravan you were guarding has shipwrecked on an island overrun by pirates. You need to get back to the mainland to survive. Getting home to Ravenshore will require fighting through wave after wave of attacking pirates, and then travelling underground through an ancient temple infested with deadly traps, poisonous snakes, and yuan-ti. How will you ever survive and return to the mainland?
Not saying DOS1 start didn't hook me, - I'm actually of the opposite view, - just pointing out that the start of DOS2 which I have seen is simply mind-blowing and right there among with the start of DAO as good starts. This is a clear indication the second game shows the devs improved on their previous attempt. This is why I am excited to think how that can be further improved in the next game.