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Should the 10-bandit ambush from BG1 be removed from the game?

semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
One of the rare ambushes in BG1 is a group of 10 bow-wielding bandits. There's a very old thread debating the issue here, and I thought we could get a feel for how people felt about the prospect of removing it.
  1. Should the 10-bandit ambush from BG1 be removed from the game?57 votes
    1. I like the ambush; it should stay in the game.
      54.39%
    2. I don't like the ambush; it should be removed.
        7.02%
    3. Meh. I don't care either way.
        7.02%
    4. What 10-bandit ambush? I've never seen it.
        5.26%
    5. Add a nonviolent way to avoid the fight.
        7.02%
    6. Only let the ambush happen on harder difficulties.
        0.00%
    7. Make the ambush happen 95% of the time instead of 5% of the time.
        1.75%
    8. Make the 10 bandits into 10 red dragons.
        5.26%
    9. All of the above.
        1.75%
    10. Other (please specify)
      10.53%
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Comments

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    The 10 bandit ambush is part of oldschool open world games phylosophy: sometimes you can die simply from walking the map . It is supposed to be a challenging encounter and a memorable victory at lower levels .

    "Oh, but now I can't do my no-reload run"

    Even on a reloading run players can get stuck in situations that may get suicidal and game breaking for some random reason.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Chronicler said:

    Again, you phrase it "I like the ambush; it should stay in the game." or "I don't like the ambush; it should be removed." as if the second half of these statements naturally follow from the first.

    Beamdog should not be removing content just because a handful of forum users aren't a fan of it. That is not how you enhance a game.

    Exactly, we don't like everything about the game but it's gotten popular throughout the years because encounters such as those do not spoil our fun.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Chronicler said:

    Again, you phrase it "I like the ambush; it should stay in the game." or "I don't like the ambush; it should be removed." as if the second half of these statements naturally follow from the first.

    Beamdog should not be removing content just because a handful of forum users aren't a fan of it. That is not how you enhance a game.

    That's what the "Other" category is for. After all, polls can only have 10 options, and I had to make room for the red dragons one.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Incidentally, these are also options for mods; not just Beamdog revisions.
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,391
    semiticgod said:

    Incidentally, these are also options for mods; not just Beamdog revisions.

    Mods you don't need a petition for. You can just go out and do that yourself. You don't need like permission or anything.

    I don't think anybody in this discussion has been against modders just doing as they please.
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938
    Even though I kinda like the thrill of making or missing the encounters like that, another way to avoid it is a good suggestion. It could be something like Rogue Rebalancing does with failed attempts to pickpocket or steal from houses. When Int, Wis, Chr, or Rep is high enough it gives a way to talk oneself out of a failed situation.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    It should only trigger if the party is wearing metal armour and a higher % at that, say 10% per worn metal armour.

    So 6 fighters decked out in splint mail = 65%
    1 wizard walking alone = 5%
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,391
    deltago said:

    It should only trigger if the party is wearing metal armour and a higher % at that, say 10% per worn metal armour.

    So 6 fighters decked out in splint mail = 65%
    1 wizard walking alone = 5%

    That's not a mechanic that's used anywhere in the game? There are some encounters in BG2 that scale to your level, but scaling to your equipment is new. Weird to pull out a whole new mechanic for this not at all noteworthy random encounter.

    It also speaks to a design philosophy that isn't used anywhere else in the game. If a group has no healer, should all encounters be altered to accommodate that you have no healer? If you don't recruit a thief should the traps disappear? So on and so forth.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Improved Anvil has actually done that kind of stuff, and not in a good way. At least in some versions of IA, playing a Fighter/Mage can actually remove the Spell Immunity scroll from Pai'Na's lair, just to rob the player of an important option.
  • BubbBubb Member Posts: 1,005
    While I picked the first option, I don't necessarily "like" the encounter. For low level parties, it is basically a random and unavoidable death sentence. Of course there is Power Word: Reload for occasions such as this, but I don't feel like randomly forcing a game over is necessarily good design.

    On the other hand, I do believe the encounter has its place. You are told time and time again that the roads are very, very dangerous. It would make no sense if the player never encountered what all the NPCs were whining about...

    So uh, I'm split 50/50? At this point, writing it out has made me more conflicted than I originally was.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    "I like the ambush: but I want to have it without the game and with extra cheese on top"
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 676
    Also with the added touch of having ten voices of firkraag saying with a dialogue ''Well it is as they say..your funeral''
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    We need more red dragons representation in the game.
  • EnuhalEnuhal Member, Moderator Posts: 1,062
    I voted for other. While I personally don't like the ambush, I don't think it should be removed. I feel like there's an element of curation to the Enhanced Editions, and changing/removing things (unless they were obviously bugs) never really sits right with me.
  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 1,385
    I like it. Plain and simple.

    I usually just run away from it though. With helmet, tower shield and splint mail / ankheg armor, and playing a 18 con fighter type (playing solo off course), I have never been in real danger.

    A good DM could very well throw a 10 bandit ambush at the table - but would give a peacefull solution as well as Zaghoul pointed out.

    I am well aware that the ambush penalizes mages the most, but the game gives the mage so much more in other circumstances: for instance the unlimited rest option at inns. Mages and sorcerors can rest spam their way into epic levels, and get the monty haul of spells to boot.

    No DM in their right would let a sleeping beauty sorceror travel invisible through an entire game and sleep 100 times - AD&D is meant for balanced parties, not for no-realoading sorcerors who spend more time in their beds than awake.

    Imo mages/sorcerors are stupid broken in comparison with the ambushes in BG1 - but thats just me.
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,391
    StummvonBordwehr said:

    I like it. Plain and simple.

    I usually just run away from it though. With helmet, tower shield and splint mail / ankheg armor, and playing a 18 con fighter type (playing solo off course), I have never been in real danger.

    A good DM could very well throw a 10 bandit ambush at the table - but would give a peacefull solution as well as Zaghoul pointed out.

    I am well aware that the ambush penalizes mages the most, but the game gives the mage so much more in other circumstances: for instance the unlimited rest option at inns. Mages and sorcerors can rest spam their way into epic levels, and get the monty haul of spells to boot.

    No DM in their right would let a sleeping beauty sorceror travel invisible through an entire game and sleep 100 times - AD&D is meant for balanced parties, not for no-realoading sorcerors who spend more time in their beds than awake.

    Imo mages/sorcerors are stupid broken in comparison with the ambushes in BG1 - but thats just me.

    Mages/Sorcerers are also very vulnerable in the early game, and nigh invincible in the late game. You're gonna have some rough early encounters in order to earn that power you'll have later, and that too is by design, and imo good.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    Keep it unless you change the encounter into a tarrasque that splits instead of dies with a ctrl-y! Imagine the solo no-reloaders complaining about that one. Also, it would be amusing to see what kind of cheese people employ to win the encounter...
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,077
    @semiticgod, is it possible to merge those two threads about ambush together? I think it would make discussion more tidy. :)
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Artona: It's possible, but the old thread is already gigantic, and I'm not sure we can keep them in the right order (with this thread's comments after the other thread's comments) without losing the poll option. I think it's best to just move the discussion here.
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,077
    @semiticgod okay, so I'll reply here:
    The player actually has more options for dealing with those threats in BG2 than arrows in BG1:
    Chaotic Commands/Free Action (depending on game version)/rage/low saves (Potions of Invulnerability/Stone Form/Magic Shielding, various items and spells from Rings of Protection to Blur and Protection from Evil)/Sword of Arvoreen/Arbane's Sword (depending on game version), (...) or spell disruption (Insect Plague, Wizard Slayer spell failure, or damage)
    can all block those things. And you probably have most of them by the time you run into these effects. For BG1, avoiding arrows is basically just wearing armor and a shield until you get more options later in the game.
    Incidentally, I was not pointing out that players don't like dying (that much is obvious)--I was pointing out that this encounter just isn't very interesting to fight.


    That's true, but I would say that arrows are less dangerous than Imprisonment or mind flayer's abilities, so it evens out - you have less options, but you face lesser threats. Regardless - this is different to say that this encounter should be removed because it's hard, and to say than it should be removed because it's not interesting.
    I do agree with the latter, but it can be said about most fights with critters and bandits in the game. So why single out this one? If anything, I think that it's *more* interesting than other normal fights with bandits, because it's an ambush. Point of an ambush is to caught enemies unprepared. It's not the best ambush, but at least it adds little flavour, because you are forced to fight and survive outside your normal "comfort zone" - you can't scout, or even cast Armour, or pick enemies one by one, or whatever.
    Hence my vote for "no". :)
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    If you don't want to take risks you should stay at bed.
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    Other: I don't like the ambush but it should NOT be removed. It is one of the very memorable early interactions I had with the game, and those frights should not be tamed or glossed over.

    That said, I thought this ambush HAD been removed, I don't think I've seen it once in switching to the EE games, although it could be my routine explorations no longer take me in a path that would trigger it?
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    Raduziel said:

    If you don't want to take risks you should stay at bed.

    "Stay with me and you'll probably never even leave Candlekeep"
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    i play on story mode so i does not really bother me.
  • Dev6Dev6 Member Posts: 721
    Some men just want to watch the world burn.
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