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Undead immunities

AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 806
edited April 2019 in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
Edit: I have compiled the info in this thread into a table in the Baldur's Gate wiki.

Undead are immune to many things. I'd like to create a list of all their immunities. This is what I have so far:
  • Mind altering effects, like Sleep, Confusion, Horror, Stun, etc.
  • Poison.
  • Petrification.
  • Some spells: Slay Living, Cause Wounds spells, Vampiric Touch.

Not sure about the spells that create gases. I just tried Stinking cloud on a vampire and he was immune. However, Death Fog did damage him. Also not sure about the stun effect. I think I've seen undead stunned by darts of stunning.

What other immunities do they have?
Post edited by Alonso on

Comments

  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 3,079
    It depends on the game. In Icewind Dale, cadaverous undead such as ghouls can be petrified. In Baldur's Gate, they can't.
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 806
    Great list, @kjeron!

    Is it possible that skeletons are also immune to cold? My summoned skeleton was battling an ice mephit and the game says in blue letters "skeleton warrior was immune to my damage". But I have several mods installed, so it might be that.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    There are some other undead-specific immunities that aren't reflected in the creature files themselves or the items they have equipped. Certain items, for example, have Protection from Resource opcodes that prevent some of their on-hit effects from touching undead. However, these are very rare and they tend to replicate existing immunities rather than introduce new ones. A weapon that paralyzes the target, for example, might have an opcode that makes the paralysis ignore undead targets, even though undead are immune to paralysis already. That opcode might do nothing but provide a message in the dialog box saying the skeleton was immune to the effect.
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 806
    Thank you for all the answers. I have created a table in the Baldur's Gate wiki that summarizes all this info. Let me know if I got something wrong.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited March 2019
    Yup. Hold Undead uses opcode 185, the same opcode they use in Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, and Free Action and other effects grant no immunity to opcode 185. The idea is to use a separate effect that goes past similar immunities. There are immunities to 185; it's just restricted to dragons and plot-critical characters whose scripts would get screwed up if they got paralyzed. Opcode 185 is actually otherwise identical to opcodes 109 and 175, the typical "Hold" opcodes. They all do the same thing. Same goes with opcode 45, the stun opcode, and opcode 157, the web effect (though the web effect used to be cosmetic pre-EE, and Web spells used opcode 109 to paralyze stuff).

    Likewise, Control Undead uses opcode 241 instead of opcode 5. The effect is identical, but nothing is immune to opcode 241 except for certain critters like Belhifet in IWD:EE (though that might be version dependent). Thus, undead get blanket immunity to charm effects, opcode 5, but are still vulnerable to opcode 241.
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,368
    edited March 2019
    semiticgod wrote: »
    Yup. Hold Undead uses opcode 185, the same opcode they use in Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, and Free Action and other effects grant no immunity to opcode 185. The idea is to use a separate effect that goes past similar immunities. There are immunities to 185; it's just restricted to dragons and plot-critical characters whose scripts would get screwed up if they got paralyzed. Opcode 185 is actually otherwise identical to opcodes 109 and 175, the typical "Hold" opcodes. They all do the same thing. Same goes with opcode 45, the stun opcode, and opcode 157, the web effect (though the web effect used to be cosmetic pre-EE, and Web spells used opcode 109 to paralyze stuff).
    There are some functional differences between them:
    op109:
    - it doesn't force the "Held" icon or display the yellow glow effect.
    - it can be flagged to display as a false petrification (STATE_STONE_DEATH and the stone overlay, but no death/exp/chunking). When used on party members, it doesn't set the state, and the overlay won't display unless you save and load the game while the effect is active on them, at which point it will also set their hp to 0, but not actually kill them. This alternate behavior for party members is likely to avoid kicking them out of the party.

    op185:
    - it is not removed by op162 (remove hold).

    Web is more alike to paralyze than stun.
    Web sets the "HELD" and "WEB" stats, not STATE_STUNNED.
    Web cannot be removed by any of the stun/held removal opcodes.

    There are a couple of generic creatures with (IMO undeserved) immunity to op185, through IMMCHS.itm.
    Post edited by kjeron on
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 806
    Looks like the only immunities shared by all undead are sleep, hold and paralyze, right?
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Apparently. It's weird that wraiths don't get all the same immunities. According to Near Infinity, there are some wraiths that actually get standard undead immunities (they have RING95.itm equipped), but there's one in my BG1/SoD install that only has immunities to sleep, hold, paralyze, and charm.
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,368
    semiticgod wrote: »
    Apparently. It's weird that wraiths don't get all the same immunities. According to Near Infinity, there are some wraiths that actually get standard undead immunities (they have RING95.itm equipped), but there's one in my BG1/SoD install that only has immunities to sleep, hold, paralyze, and charm.
    BG2EE wriaths have IMMCHS, Black Pits 1 Wraiths have IMMCHS, SoD Wriath's have RING95.
  • DregothofTyrDregothofTyr Member Posts: 229
    Undead also seem to be immune to Vampiric Touch, I noticed, making them immune to all the evil Bhaalspawn powers.
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 806
    Recent observation:
    Crimson deaths and mist horrors are immune to acid and cold, but not fire.
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 806
    What about feeblemind? It looks like it's a different effect. Are undead vulnerable to it?
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    Alonso wrote: »
    What about feeblemind? It looks like it's a different effect. Are undead vulnerable to it?

    Oddly enough, yes. Most undead I checked (only checked BG1:EE so far) can indeed be affected by Feeblemind. Probably shouldn't be the case, TBH, but Feeblemind is a fairly rare condition anyway.

    I have even seen it happen many times before. I often use summoned skeletons to fight the sirines in the coastal areas of BG1. The sirine's melee attack inflicts confusion and feeblemind if a save is failed and I have had many a skeleton stupified by them in the past. As a side note, even if their attack hits something vulnerable to confusion, the confusion is superseded by the feeblemindedness and the affected character will not act confused.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    edited May 2019
    i would say that feeblemind stops every script from working so even the script that set what a confused creature does.
    the only exception to it is the red dragon in small teeth pass area (tactics mod) that after a certain time heal himself and get rid of the feeblemind condition, with all the other creatures afaik the feeblemind condition is permanent until healed and block all the scripts overriding them.
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    Feeblemind is not permanent.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Feeblemind lasts for 3,600,000 seconds, which would be 500 in-game days or I think 41 real-time days. You'd have to repeatedly hit the Rest button and skip the rest cutscene for like 15 minutes straight, or hold CTRL-T for a similarly long time, to wait out the duration. Unless you're in an area where you can rest without worrying about rest ambushes, or you're willing to use the console to wait it out with CTRL-T, it's about as close to permanent as you can get. No other non-permanent duration is as long as Feeblemind; it's 500 times longer than Invisibility.
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 806
    @semiticgod: I love those nerdy calculations, I do it all the time, I'm always calculating the time it would take a spaceship to reach another star or something like that :D
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    @alonso watch the isaac arthur channel on you tube if you like that kind of things, you may find it very interesting... ;)
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,368
    semiticgod wrote: »
    Unless you're in an area where you can rest without worrying about rest ambushes, or you're willing to use the console to wait it out with CTRL-T, it's about as close to permanent as you can get. No other non-permanent duration is as long as Feeblemind; it's 500 times longer than Invisibility.
    There is however a quicker way to end it than waiting it out simply because it's not permanent - death/resurrection. Were it to be permanent, using timing mode 1 or 9, it would still persist after death and resurrection and require direct removal by spells that cure Feeblemind.
  • _Luke__Luke_ Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 1,535
    edited May 2019
    kjeron wrote: »
    Were it to be permanent, using timing mode 1 or 9, it would still persist after death and resurrection and require direct removal by spells that cure Feeblemind.

    Even with timing mode 1? But then why is it called "Permanent until death"? Is opcode #76 an exception?
    Post edited by _Luke_ on
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Luke93: I think that was a phrasing error. Timing mode 1 would in fact be permanent until death, while 9 would persist after death.

    However, I was under the impression that permanent effects with timing mode 1 or 9 could not be removed via Dispel Magic--or even by more specific types of effect removal like Breach or the Remove Effects by Resource opcode. @kjeron, would timing mode 1 or 9 make feeblemind undispellable?
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  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,368
    semiticgod wrote: »
    However, I was under the impression that permanent effects with timing mode 1 or 9 could not be removed via Dispel Magic--or even by more specific types of effect removal like Breach or the Remove Effects by Resource opcode. @kjeron, would timing mode 1 or 9 make feeblemind undispellable?
    Timing mode 9 has no influence on an effect being dispellable, though it will prevent death, export, op337, op220, op221, as well as op17 param2 BIT17 (which includes the Ctrl+R debug) from removing the effect.

    the Dispel Magic spells will remove Feeblemind no matter the timing mode, as they directly remove Feeblemind with op77, which removes both the effect and un-sets the base STATE on a creature. Without that effect, it would have trouble removing it once the base STATE was set.

    When applied with timing mode 1, most STAT and STATE-based effects that are present in the CRE file will set such values within the creature structure, such that it persists even when the effect is removed, if the effect remains to be removed at all (which is rare).
    Feeblemind is an odd exception, in that it doesn't actually do this unless you are killed while it's active with timing mode 1.

    Sleep (op39) will set the base STATE for both SLEEPING and HELPLESS when applied with timing mode 1, but leave no effect. STATE_SLEEPING can be removed with op2, but STATE_HELPLESS cannot be removed in-game.

    Haste (op16) will set the base STATE and nothing else when applied with timing mode 1, and cannot be removed within the game by any means, only suppressed by slow. This only works when applying normal/improved haste (there's no difference, since the STAT for improved doesn't get set this way), weak haste does not do anything with timing mode 1 last I checked. Slow (op40) works similarly, just without having different types of slow.

    Stun (op45) will both set the base STATE and apply the stun effect to the creature when used with timing mode 1. Nothing except op46 will remove the base STATE for stun.

    IIRC, the only effects that use STATEs that do not set the base creature STATE with timing mode 1 are the opcodes for LUCK, CHANT, AID, BADCHANT, MIRROR IMAGE, DRAW UPON HOLY MIGHT, and BLESS, as well as the alternate opcode for Berserk (247). Most of these also don't do anything without their related opcodes, as setting the base STATE defaults to a value of 0 for them, but still get considered in the stacking order.

    For STATS, the BG2 theiving skills (Hide in Shadows, Detect Illusions, and Set Traps) are the main exceptions - timing mode 1 cannot affect the base score of the creature, similarly, the ChangeStat() action cannot affect them either.
    Luke93 wrote: »
    Even with timing mode 1? But then why is it called "Permanent until death"? Is opcode #76 an exception?
    It's not anything new - the Tomes from BG1 have always worked this way. I can only guess that whoever named it only looked at how it worked for certain opcodes.
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 806
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    @alonso watch the isaac arthur channel on you tube if you like that kind of things, you may find it very interesting... ;)
    Thanks for that one. Interesting, but too advanced for me. He explains relativity in three minutes! :D
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