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Pathfinder:Kingmaker Minimal and No Reload Thread (spoilers, obviously)

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  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited May 2019
    There's also the Tiefling from the wildcards DLC that can be a treasurer. It's a bit tricky since you're supposed to go out to a dangerous area all by yourself. In a minimal reload run, it might make sense to waste the time going out there with your party, change out your party, do the area with her, and then swap your party back on the road, since it's super risky on those roads by yourself.

    Actually, you can go there with your party, speak to the tiefling, then send your party away (via dialogue) for the short mission, and they will rejoin you when you leave the area.

    However, at the minimum level for this mission (5) random encounters near the mission site can be dangerous even with a full party.

    DrHappyAngry
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,424
    Fardragon wrote: »
    There's also the Tiefling from the wildcards DLC that can be a treasurer. It's a bit tricky since you're supposed to go out to a dangerous area all by yourself. In a minimal reload run, it might make sense to waste the time going out there with your party, change out your party, do the area with her, and then swap your party back on the road, since it's super risky on those roads by yourself.

    Actually, you can go there with your party, speak to the tiefling, then send your party away (via dialogue) for the short mission, and they will rejoin you when you leave the area.

    However, at the minimum level for this mission (5) random encounters near the mission site can be dangerous even with a full party.

    Hah, I never tried that, I just assumed it'd be like
    when Nyrissa asked you to meet her

  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,424
    I just did that area on challenging at levels 6-7, so most of it's definitely do-able, but only because I knew to have protection from energy up and spread my party out when opening that well. I gotta admit, I was really curious how you'd fare on the rest of the area when I saw your last post about where you were at. It was rough my first time, and I didn't finish that fight at the well till a decent amount later during my first run. The scythe tree's actually not that tough. It's a tree, so what do trees not like?

    Spoilerish stuff about that map I don't think you came across
    There is some content on that map that you're not supposed to get to until later, but they're gated behind fairly high perception checks. But I have spotted the entrances at lower levels if I just happen to roll well. It doesn't sound like you stumbled across them, or you'd have reloaded. I hate to say this, but there's actually more dangerous stuff on that map that you haven't gotten to.

    This is probably one of the worst maps for bumping into really tough stuff you're not prepared for or underleveled for. I wouldn't say situations like this get that much more frequent. In fact, I found it to be the opposite once I got to around level 10ish.

    bleusteelBelgarathMTH
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,536
    edited May 2019
    @DrHappyAngry , Thanks for the warning. I actually just left my game for tonight after traveling back there intending to try to find the lost boy tomorrow. Go ahead and spoil me on that - Is it possible to complete the lost boy quest without encountering another "gotcha"?

    BTW, see the edit on the post above. I went back and did defeat the level 16 well encounter.

  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,424
    It's possible to do the lost boy quest without any gotchas, but it's also possible it doesn't play out well at all at a few points.

    BelgarathMTH
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited May 2019
    Wisps are a scissors-paper-stone enemy. if you cast resist lighting communal then magic missile them to death they are easy.

    There is nothing in the game to prevent you scouting with a stealthy party member and avoiding enemies that are too strong at your current level. Usually the tough monsters are not on the critical path, even if the area they inhabit is.

    The scythe tree is fine if you prepare though. I think the game makes it clear enough that it is a boss monster.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,495
    Thanks, @BelgarathMTH , for doing these reports. I'll certainly miss them if you stop, but will also understand your decision. I keep reading about this game, and this thread probably has given me the biggest insights, but I'm still unsure. I don't like when games require metaknowledge for the player to succeed, this was one of the reasons I'm not so positive about PoE.

    BelgarathMTH
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,133
    Thanks, @BelgarathMTH , for doing these reports. I'll certainly miss them if you stop, but will also understand your decision. I keep reading about this game, and this thread probably has given me the biggest insights, but I'm still unsure. I don't like when games require metaknowledge for the player to succeed, this was one of the reasons I'm not so positive about PoE.

    to be honest, if you just start on normal difficulty, you should be fine, USUALLY if you run into something that is silly hard you can either avoid and come back later or it has some sort of weakness ( like the willow wisps up above, having protection from electricity and using magic missiles wipes them )

    as for me, i finally made it back to where i was before and im even level 11 now, and ventured off on to some new things, and for the most part doing really well, no huge surprises as of yet, but i still wouldn't be surprised if i get way laid by 12 balors just for the lulz


    BelgarathMTH
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Go ahead and spoil me on that - Is it possible to complete the lost boy quest without encountering another "gotcha"?

    You can just not fight most of the monsters on that map. The scythe tree and the well are part of a different quest, you don't need to touch them to find out about the lost boy.

    It's also possible to locate the lost boy without visiting that map at all.

    BelgarathMTH
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,495
    It's hard to avoid something if you can't retreat from fights once they started.

    EnialusMeliamneBelgarathMTH
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited May 2019
    If the party is stealthed (and often even if you are not) you spot enemies (and can inspect them) before they spot you. There is no need to start a fight unless you want to.

    And the scythe tree is tucked away in a corner of the map behind some ruined houses surrounded by clouds of poison gas. It's not something you stumble over following the main path.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,536
    @Fardragon , Stealth is how I spotted the sycthe tree and made the decision not to fight it. I had a similar experience spotting a dragon in a cave and avoiding fighting it.

    With the ancient will-o'-wisp, I made the decision to open the well, and that was a point of no return. I guess it's debatable whether I should have chickened out on opening the well, but I had already successfully fought regular will-o'-wisps, so I thought I was supposed to be able to handle the encounter.

    Now I know the forumla: "See wisps, cast protection from electricity, use magic missiles." I can never unknow that. Wisps will probably never be a problem for me in this game again. (I hope those aren't famous last words.) That's the thing about metaknowledge. You get it by getting killed by stuff, and then, it's very easy to forget what it was like to not know what you now know. :)

    I see the forgetting of what it was like to not have extensive metaknowledge in Baldur's Gate players all the time. I think it's good for me to occasionally play a difficult new D&D game like this one, so I can remember playing without knowing. You only get one first time, and this is mine with P:KM. I'm having my ups and downs with it, but so far the experience is a net positive for me, I think. Still, I'm already looking forward to replaying the content as far as I've been with all my new knowledge and experience of what to expect. (Must...not...succumb...to...restartitis.)

    JuliusBorisovArvia
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,424
    Thanks, @BelgarathMTH , for doing these reports. I'll certainly miss them if you stop, but will also understand your decision. I keep reading about this game, and this thread probably has given me the biggest insights, but I'm still unsure. I don't like when games require metaknowledge for the player to succeed, this was one of the reasons I'm not so positive about PoE.

    I really don't see it as any worse than Baldur's Gate. I mean in that game you could wander into the Basilisk garden, bump into Sirines on the coast, have a random encounter with a bunch of bandits when you're completely alone and haven't had time to recruit anyone, bump into a vampiric wolf at level 1 with no magic weapons or walk into a house full of giant spiders without any backup at level 1-2. Sure some of those encounters you could run from, others you're just getting attacked the whole time you're moving away, or getting turned to stone/charmed. I do wish they had a way to flee combat, though.

    BelgarathMTHArvia
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,495
    Thanks, @BelgarathMTH , for doing these reports. I'll certainly miss them if you stop, but will also understand your decision. I keep reading about this game, and this thread probably has given me the biggest insights, but I'm still unsure. I don't like when games require metaknowledge for the player to succeed, this was one of the reasons I'm not so positive about PoE.

    I really don't see it as any worse than Baldur's Gate. I mean in that game you could wander into the Basilisk garden, bump into Sirines on the coast, have a random encounter with a bunch of bandits when you're completely alone and haven't had time to recruit anyone, bump into a vampiric wolf at level 1 with no magic weapons or walk into a house full of giant spiders without any backup at level 1-2. Sure some of those encounters you could run from, others you're just getting attacked the whole time you're moving away, or getting turned to stone/charmed. I do wish they had a way to flee combat, though.

    Yes. And in all those cases, you can just retreat. Yes, you can lose party members, or even die as the main character, but you can retreat, nothing is preventing you from it.

    BelgarathMTH
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,424
    Thanks, @BelgarathMTH , for doing these reports. I'll certainly miss them if you stop, but will also understand your decision. I keep reading about this game, and this thread probably has given me the biggest insights, but I'm still unsure. I don't like when games require metaknowledge for the player to succeed, this was one of the reasons I'm not so positive about PoE.

    I really don't see it as any worse than Baldur's Gate. I mean in that game you could wander into the Basilisk garden, bump into Sirines on the coast, have a random encounter with a bunch of bandits when you're completely alone and haven't had time to recruit anyone, bump into a vampiric wolf at level 1 with no magic weapons or walk into a house full of giant spiders without any backup at level 1-2. Sure some of those encounters you could run from, others you're just getting attacked the whole time you're moving away, or getting turned to stone/charmed. I do wish they had a way to flee combat, though.

    Yes. And in all those cases, you can just retreat. Yes, you can lose party members, or even die as the main character, but you can retreat, nothing is preventing you from it.

    Technically you can, but if you're swarmed by bandits or being chased by a vampiric wolf in the middle of the map, they can just drop you before you get to the edge. The enemies can totally prevent you from retreating. If your charname takes a hit from a basilisk, that's it, game over. I don't think most people are playing no reload on their first playthrough, so it's not a huge deal. The game auto-saves every time you enter a new area. I don't feel like it's any less fair than what BG did. How many people really attempted a no/minimal reload game of the first Baldur's Gate without having finished it at least once?

    BelgarathMTH
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited May 2019
    Now I know the forumla: "See wisps, cast protection from electricity, use magic missiles." I can never unknow that. Wisps will probably never be a problem for me in this game again. (I hope those aren't famous last words.) That's the thing about metaknowledge. You get it by getting killed by stuff, and then, it's very easy to forget what it was like to not know what you now know. :)

    It's not metagame - the information is in an in-game book, and I'm pretty sure there is a copy on the bookshelf next to your bed in the trading post. It has info on some other critters you will meet as well.

    You can also use the inspect monster button to find out the same information if your party makes high enough lore skill rolls. This function wasn't in the game at launch though.

    Oh, and there are some variant wisps in the game...


    I do think there has been a tendency to put fake danger warnings in CRPGs, so people have gotten into the habit of ignoring them. This game is more like a horror movie - if you ignore warnings not to into the attic you will probably die. Something to bear in mind on a no-reload run.

    DrHappyAngrybleusteel
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,536
    edited May 2019
    So, giant slugs spit acid, do they? While they spit it at me, I have Harrim cast Communal Protection from Energy: Acid.
    jpoyypnwt5ui.jpg

    So, giant slugs spit *a lot* of acid. Even with protection, Valerie takes a big hit.
    emhwjwh1f919.jpgz25ov90i3vv7.jpg

    You might notice on Valerie's portrait, she now has a big scar over her face. That was inflicted by her former "mentor" from the Order of the Rose, the paladin order of the goddess of beauty that Valerie chose to leave. They practically wanted to kidnap her back and force her to resume service to the goddess. When we backed her up in her refusal, the leader demanded an honor duel. He was far more skilled than his former apprentice, and he knew it. He slashed her face, mocked her and spit on her, and left her with us, saying she would never be welcome by their order again. I have to say, I am NOT impressed with the so-called "paladins of the goddess of beauty." They are the type of fanatic jerks that give all paladins everywhere a bad name!

    Party Level: 6
    Reloads: 3 (wererat cave, troll ambush, ancient will-o-wisp)

    JuliusBorisovArvia
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,536
    Okay, I just took a fourth reload because of a scarecrow in a fight I consider unfair. It applied a condition on touch that made the victim just stand there until it could be killed. The condition was unlabeled in the character screens. The rest of the party had been frozen by a permanent dazzle spell from the witch the scarecrow was protecting. I had to sit there for five minutes and watch the scarecrow slowly murder everyone in the party while we did nothing, even though Valerie had killed the witch. We never even opened her gate. We tried to get the witch's attention by throwing a rock at her window, failed the dexterity check, and broke the window. I might be able to beat the encounter by scattering and kiting. Again, metaknowledge. And I definitely consider this a "gotcha".

    I think this run is over as a minimal reload. When an encounter like that leaves me feeling angry at how it was set up, it's about time for me to quit and play something else. This was definitely not fun for me.
    dzmcyxuss9gn.jpglzmz0eec53r0.jpg

    k94wqmj3e54c.jpg

    Party Level: 6
    Reloads: 4
    Run Failed

    JuliusBorisov
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,424
    So you attacked the witch, huh? You know that
    She didn't kidnap the child and was completely innocent. There was a perception check you may have failed that indicates she's telling the truth that she didn't kidnap the child. Perception's crazy important in this game.
    Like I said it could go either way, it can go horribly wrong at a few points. I failed it my first time.

    So my first game I got a fair amount further into the game and my kingdom got wrecked. I had saves going back far enough that I could have salvaged it, but I thought I'd just take what I learned and make a whole new character and did much better. I know I felt going into it the first time that since I had played NWN 1 and 2, plus all the other CRPGs I'd do fine, but this game is definitely it's own beast.

    Maybe you should just give it a break and come back to it and just let yourself reload, at least for your first playthrough. You don't have to reload every single bad roll or anything, just learn from where things went wrong.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,133
    even with that, you could still try a minimum reload blind play through, just see if you can do it with less than 100 reloads, this game loves throwing unfair things at you all the time

    and with that witch fight, i never knew that scarecrow was that powerful, i've only done that battle twice, and i completely wasted both of them in like 2 rounds, i guess i just wasnt unlucky enough to get hit with that "get paralyzed and lose" effect

    here is a screenshot of linzy when she just hit level 10, pretty good for doing my "rogue" type stuff
    xp00fuca2imq.jpg

    and this is a battle that i did in the capital because this person didnt like what i had to say, and this was the result, lulz:
    r2xr5y7nul8b.jpg

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,536
    edited May 2019
    @DrHappyAngry , I didn't attack the witch. I tried to get her attention so I could talk to her, and failed a dexterity check. I also didn't voluntarily open her gate. The game just told me I smashed her gate after I failed the dexterity check. That's the dungeon master taking control of your character and then killing you for it. And that's part of why I'm so angry at this encounter design. I won't be playing this game any more any time soon. I've started a new run of Neverwinter Nights 2, a much better third edition D&D game, to get the bad taste out of my mouth.

    JuliusBorisovsarevok57
  • EnialusMeliamneEnialusMeliamne Member Posts: 399
    edited May 2019
    I’ve recently dumped a few hours into the game again. The first time Linzi failed a lock pick dice check, I remembered I needed a mod to fix what’s ostensibly the most idiotic design decision I’ve ever experienced with a game that requires rogue abilities. Now that you mention NWN2, the idea of running another Favored Soul of Tyr through the game sounds pretty appealing. Best of luck with NWN2, @BelgarathMTH. Curious if you’re thinking of creating another of these threads for said play-through?

    BelgarathMTHJuliusBorisovArvia
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,536
    I’ve recently dumped a few hours into the game again. The first time Linzi failed a lock pick dice check, I remembered I needed a mod to fix what’s ostensibly the most idiotic design decision I’ve ever experienced with a game that requires rogue abilities. Now that you mention NWN2, the idea of running another Favored Soul of Tyr through the game sounds pretty appealing. Best of luck with NWN2, @BelgarathMTH. Curious if you’re thinking of creating another of these threads for said play-through?

    Well, I thought about it, but I'm not sure that game really works for the minimal reload concept. I mean, I won't be reloading unless there's a total party wipe, but that almost never happens. NWN2 is way more about roleplaying and story, and it's not a very tactically difficult game, I don't think. P:KM held a lot of promise for me as my new Baldur's Gate, but at this point I have to give it a reluctant thumbs down, and I can't recommend it to anyone looking for an experience like BG, or NWN 1 or 2.

    EnialusMeliamnebleusteelJuliusBorisovArvia
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,424
    You know you could have just rung the door bell and she'd have been cool.

    Fardragon
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited May 2019
    You know you could have just rung the door bell and she'd have been cool.

    ^^This. There was no need to throw any rocks in the first place, there is a bell on the gate.

    It's fair to say that the difficulty of the role-playing side of the game is considerably higher than Baldur's Gate, where you can pick pretty much any conversation option and have things work out one way or another. But it is fair. You just need to read carefully and think carefully about what you do.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,495
    I understand where @BelgarathMTH is coming from. Even while I don't agree that every new game should be compared to Baldur's Gate, I still can see what he means.

    First of all, about games not being compared to Baldur's Gate: I think every game should be evaluated on its own, even if this or that game is inspired by the classics.

    Second, even if the role-playing side is rather good, a game is more than that. Pillars of Eternity offers a lot of RPG aspects, with its many choices in dialogues, class- and race-specific lines, decisions about characters and even regions. But encounter design is bread and butter of tactical party RPGs. If a player is angry about the encounter design, it's their right and their choice.

    It's even a bit surprising for me to write about it, but the encounter design in SoD, for example, is much better than it is in PoE, even while SoD was created by a much smaller team of developers, and that team didn't have as much experience as the team behind PoE. As I understand, @BelgarathMTH didn't like the encounter design in PKM. It's completely alright.

    @EnialusMeliamne What that design decision is about?

    BelgarathMTH
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 1,103
    edited May 2019
    @BelgarathMTH , I hope you're not spitting fire with smoke coming out of your ears 🙂.

    Sorry to hear how the game frustrated you, I liked reading your reports. And it's interesting how people who have been playing this type of game for centuries still struggle with minimal reload in an unknown game, similar to the difficulties I have in BG1 right now.
    And I can totally agree that it's frustrating when you like to roleplay in your games, and those choices don't give you a chance to survive, but get you killed instead, and then you have to reload and take another choice to succeed. Maybe you should have used smaller stones on that window 🙂.

    At least I know now that I probably won't try that game next, if I ever finish my BG run in the next 10 years.

    I hope you've calmed down.
    *casts Protection from Stomach Ulcer and High Blood Pressure on BelgarathMTH and gets back to work*

    Post edited by Arvia on
    BelgarathMTH
  • bleusteelbleusteel Member Posts: 507
    I think the swamp witch encounter is great. You get a chance to detect magic on the scarecrow that tells you it is dangerous. At that point you can say maybe I’ll try my luck with the rock thing knowing that it could go wrong or just ring the bell (logically the lowest risk option that advances the story) or come back later.

    It takes me back to the rookie party encounter in Abazigal’s Lair. They try their luck taking on charname and get their butt’s handed to them so they reload and play nice. Immersion breaking but an awesome moment.

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