You know you could have just rung the door bell and she'd have been cool.
Interesting. I didn't see the "ring the bell" option hiding under the "toss a light pebble" option. I still disagree with the outcome of "tossing a light pebble" being that the window broke and the gate crashed down, and the witch attacked with no chance to talk. I also disagree with not being able to apologize and explain what happened. I'll think about whether I want to try it again at a later date.
For an encounter that you're supposed to be able to talk your way through, I still think it's bad writing.
@BelgarathMTH , I hope you're not spitting fire with smoke coming out of your ears ?.
Sorry to hear how the game frustrated you, I liked reading your reports. And it's interesting how people who have been playing this type of game for centuries still struggle with minimal reload in an unknown game, similar to the difficulties I have in BG1 right now.
And I can totally agree that it's frustrating when you like to roleplay in your games, and those choices don't give you a chance to survive, but get you killed instead, and then you have to reload and take another choice to succeed. Maybe you should have used smaller stones on that window ?.
At least I know now that I probably won't try that game next, if I ever finish my BG run in the next 10 years.
I hope you've calmed down.
*casts Protection from Stomach Ulcer and High Blood Pressure on BelgarathMTH and gets back to work*
*smiles as he feels the relief from @Arvia 's spell. Yep, when a game starts making me feel like that, it's definitely time to play something else. I'm in a stressful time at my own work (spring recital, spring scholarship and orchestra auditions), and the stress from playing this game was starting to be felt mixed in with real life work stress. That's the opposite effect of what I play games for. It's definitely time to switch games and play something that is more relaxing to me.
@JuliusBorisov apologies for getting back to you late. In PF:KM, locks are a completely different beast from what I’ve come to expect from CRPG’s. If you fail a dice check on a lock pick, the person who failed said check cannot retry until the next character level skill advancement in Trickery. If you have a backup character in the party with Trickery also specced, they can also perform a check...but if they fail too, you’re waiting until next level. Fortunately, a modder has enabled a fix to that, where repeated checks can be made. Honest to Zeus, the level of trolling that I felt some of the devs threw in this game infuriates me to this day. It’s a wonder I’ll even play it at all.
@JuliusBorisov apologies for getting back to you late. In PF:KM, locks are a completely different beast from what I’ve come to expect from CRPG’s. If you fail a dice check on a lock pick, the person who failed said check cannot retry until the next character level skill advancement in Trickery. If you have a backup character in the party with Trickery also specced, they can also perform a check...but if they fail too, you’re waiting until next level. Fortunately, a modder has enabled a fix to that, where repeated checks can be made. Honest to Zeus, the level of trolling that I felt some of the devs threw in this game infuriates me to this day. It’s a wonder I’ll even play it at all.
Arcane Trickster using Ranged Legerdemain has unlimited attempts to pick the same lock. Careful using RL to disarm traps. While it is safer, you receive no experience for disarming with RL.
Edit: I hope the devs implement “take 10” or “take 20” rules for normal lock picking. Doing it in a dungeon should incur some opportunity for random encounters but otherwise I think this would solve most people’s issue. They already have a mechanic for passing time, just make it take time and potentially a random encounter or fatigue or something.
yup, pathfinder kingmaker has been quite the experience so far, i just hit level 12 and now i have to fight a whole bunch of barbarian peeps to continue on, and its kind of dumb because the game on purposely puts my team in a bad spot and forces me to be completely surrounded, ugh and it made me think:
Honest to Zeus, the level of trolling that I felt some of the devs threw in this game infuriates me to this day.
this statement couldn't be more accurate even if it tried, this right here is the holy grail of what this game is
it really flusters me on what is up with the devs of this game? i feel as if their thought process was; okay, we want to make an RPG game but all the western RPGs out there are way too easy and so many people make mods to make them hard, so lets just make one that is not only absurdly difficult, but unfair as hell at the same time, and with this, it almost feels like they take pride in being this difficult, im actually amazed that they didn't use this slogan to sell their game; You think Dark Souls was hard, well you should try out this game! Its like playing Dark Souls where your controller is a bunch of banana peels and you have to play it blind folded in a straight jacket!
now even though it is 100% true that you can't compare this game to baldur's gate because it is definitely not, BG, let me be a hypocrite for half a second here; the claims are, that when BG first came out, it was difficult, perhaps you died many a many a time again and again, BUT even with that said, it never felt like you died for unfair reasons, i remember when i first played the game back when i was a youngin 2 decades ago i knew nothing about the difficulty setting and the person who owned the game had it set to insane difficulty, and i was dying ALL the time, but i never got frustrated, it never felt unfair, because each time i did, i almost made it out, and back then, i had no idea what i was doing and i was still loving it, and then when you finally hit some levels and get some gear, then you dont die nearly as often and out of nowhere, and the thing that is nice about the BG series, as soon as you hit around level 3 or 4 you can basically when any battle with a whole different amount of strategies
in pathfinder, this game is just punishing you, not only are the mechanics a bit whacky ( like how you are immediately slowed when you enter battle? what? just so you can't kite lol? hmm.... ) but there is no learning curve, its basically; you MUST play a certain way and if you dont you get punished, and even when you grow up levels and get better gear the game says; oh, you think you're better now eh? well time to make the game 10 times harder, you know, just for the lulz kek, ugh, and with that, there is no "multiple ways to do said encounter" , this is the one problem i have with 3rd version type DnD rules, because spell DCs are so low at low levels they are basically useless, and enemy stats are just so good, that it comes down to only being able to do a small handful of things to get by, in BG for example, the spell hold person ( level 2 cleric spell ) is still GOOD even in ToB for pete's sake, but in the 3rd edition universe, low level crowd control spells get weak so fast, that they become completely useless and then you have to try and change them to inconsequential damaging spells because there is no other option, and pathfinder kingmaker suffers from this HARD, especially any spell that requires a fortitude save, OMG was does EVERYTHING have huge fortitude saves in this game? basically if you are going to cast spells that require a fortitude save, just go in thinking that the enemy is going to pass it, because 95% of the time, they are
needless to say, pathfinder kingmaker is developed in a very strange way and the thing that annoys me the most, is there is actually many aspects of the game that are great, but they just cant even come close enough to make up for the crap that is not great
at this time, im only playing this game out of spite, and once i beat the game, the chance of me playing it ever again, is going to be pretty damn close to 0%, and if owlcat games ( or whatever they are called ) ever makes another RPG game again, i will be very skeptical about getting it, and see what madness hides behind it before i even fathom about getting it
I think it's fairly clear that the makers of Pathfinder: Kingmaker are not only isometric but tabletop veterans of the highest order. And it seems that they have decided that Sword Coast Strategems is the absolute baseline of what the difficulty of their game should be. And that's fine, they can make the game however they like. But SCS is something to spruce up subsequent runs. It would be bonkers to suggest it to someone who has never played the game before. The numbers behind the encounters in Kingmaker may not be up to the absurd levels of Legacy of Bhaal mode, but they are certainly approaching it in spots. But the whole POINT of LOB mode is for it to be ridiculous. Some low-level spells like Sleep (which can win 70% of fights early in the first BG game) become utterly useless.
And then there is this: is anyone going to be soloing Pathfinder: Kingmaker in the near future, or ever?? Because one of the things that has kept BG going so long is that the game and the world it's set in give you to tools to accomplish just about anything given the knowledge and will to do so. I don't doubt it's possible, but I have to imagine the level of know-how needed in regards to the Pathfinder rule-set would have to be out of this world. There are some Youtube videos of people making some significant progress, but none of them seem anywhere near actually completing the game.
I appreciate everyone’s perspective, but there are plenty of knobs to make the game as easy or as hard as one wants. I don’t quite understand the reluctance to tailor the difficulty to one’s liking but rather harangue against it. BG has 4 or 5 difficulty settings while there are a dozen or more settings in KM that affect how hard are the fights. Unless achievements are the goal, these settings can be changed at any time.
I don’t disagree with your statement, and to be fairer to the game on my end, the dev team has made incredible strides at making the game an overall better experience (despite some things that still bug the hades out of me). All of that said, it’s a fitting thing that HATEOT the acronym has hate in it. Such a rage enduring part of the game.
Anyway, back to playing my Tactical Leader of Cayden.
*sigh* the game finally did me in today, i dont think i will ever play this game again, i just cant take anymore of the nonsense
so first off, things were looking good, that barbarian fight went a lot better than anticipated, there was a huge storm going so everyone was snailing across the map, and i thought; maybe i will try stealthing into that battle, but luckily because i was in stealth mode and there was a storm going, i was walking so slowly for that scripted event it didnt wait for my team to get to where they had to be for things to continue and the fight started and my companions were in an optimal spot; like how they would have been if not for pathfinder's shenanigans
so that was done, then i dont remember much of what happened afterwards, but the cyclops dungeon, oh my friggin' god, that is where madness starts, first off; i never bring rations with me EVER, because A ) they are way too damn heavy for no reason, and B )all the way up to this point of the game i never needed to, so i learned that the hard way that once that door closes behind you, you better have brought a bagjillion of those, next that raven wad pocket was asking for names and such, and from the tool tips that i've seen if a certain baddie ( which i was certain was in this dungeon ) knew your name, they would be stronger against that character, so i tried setting it so my backline peeps where getting their names selected ( which was also BS because i didn't want to give out anyone's name, like how obviously suspicious this was, but anways, that also would have bit me in the ass later
so anywho, here i was naively thinking that; okay, maybe its just one level, with mediocre baddies and a big boss at the end and all should be good..... lol, LOL?! lol, do i not know what game i am playing? *sigh* so anyways without resting, i almost made it to the end of the first level ( i was one fight away from the big ferocious dread something er rather zombie chums ) but at that point, i was completely drained, and i had no items or spells or nothing to continue on, and the game with its unmerciless BS where these zombie wads literally needed 19s or 20s to hit my guys and were hitting them ALL THE TIME, wtf mate? after attempting to fight just the 2 zombie clerics and the 3 other normal cyclops zombies, i finally had enough, i just set the difficulty to story mode so i could just get the hell out of this dungeon because i was ready to "hulk smash" something, which would be a bad idea since everything in this room is not cheap
so anyways i was reluctantly continued on story mode difficulty being upset from my defeat, just to learn that this dungeon was full of dumbass surprises that would have been stupidly brutal based on my decisions to the point where i would have to start this garbage all over again, so thank god for story mode? ugh
so after that crap dungeon was over, i put it back to the "normal type" difficulty i was playing before and hoping now, that i finally had time to do stuff, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, i keep forgetting that im playing a game that despises my existance, as soon as im done this cyclops load of crap, i finally get to go back to the kingdom just so that 2 of my party members/3 advisors just pissed right off and went to la la land, and a million more quests opened up saying; hurry, quick get there before its too late! and all that crap, and i STILL have this curse part 4 shit to deal with
so, no more, im done, the game finally broke me down, i just cant do it, i tried so hard, and so long to defend this game and give it a chance, but no what, a GOOD game doesnt need defending, a good game is a game that puts a smile on your face and is a game that you just want to play 30 hours straight and just cant stop playing because you are having so much fun, for me, pathfinder kingmaker is unfortunately not a good game, and as far as i am concerned it can burn in hell for wasting 125 hours of my life
so if you like this game, kudos to you and i hope you have enjoyed your experience, but for me there is no way in HELL you will ever convince me that this game is good or worth playing more of *sigh*
oh well, i guess i can just continue working on my DnD adventure and at least in that i can make it so my players dont battle bullshit/put my players in scenarios where they cant win without godlike divination metagaming knowledge
I actually really dig the challenge of this game and the fact choices have consequences. Want to take a risk and nail a window with a stone instead of ringing the door bell, well it can break and piss of the inhabitant. Go into a dungeon without rations, well, you're boned. Ya, in a lot of ways it's the dick DM screwing with you, but I guess I'm one of the people who grew up with that and appreciate it. Maybe it's just that I grew up with the old school Sierra games, but I can find humor in failing an dying. I grew up with games like space quest, where if you wander through the desert on the first planet, you could be squished by a random meteor or just die of thirst. My favorite was you wander into a cave with a pool of liquid in the desert. So of course you drink it, and when your character comes back up, he's got no head, because it was acid and it dissolved. I won't deny that on top of all that the game's got a steep learning curve, but I love the depth and build possibilities and challenges the game throws at you. There's a ton of difficulty nobs you can turn if you get stuck.
It's an interesting discussion about baseline difficulty. PFKM is significantly higher than BG, Pillars of Eternity 2 is significantly lower. Steam has a "difficult" tag, but they only seem to apply it when the difficulty is due to reflexes rather than reasoning.
But I guess there is also the issue of "preferred approach" to problems. I play in two PnP campaigns. In one group the party are like The Guardians of the Galaxy - insulting and robbing the people we are supposed to be helping. The other group is like Starfleet - careful and diplomatic. In CRPGs I tend to favour the "Starfleet" approach, and that really pays off in Pathfinder. I have never managed to annoy the witch or loose the gnome's wagon in the river, so I don't really know the consequences of that happening.
And I agree that it depends a lot on what you are used to, those of us who played computer games in the early 90s are used to the idea of a bad decision leading to Game Over (and those games where a lot meaner about hints).
It's an interesting discussion about baseline difficulty. PFKM is significantly higher than BG, Pillars of Eternity 2 is significantly lower. Steam has a "difficult" tag, but they only seem to apply it when the difficulty is due to reflexes rather than reasoning.
But I guess there is also the issue of "preferred approach" to problems. I play in two PnP campaigns. In one group the party are like The Guardians of the Galaxy - insulting and robbing the people we are supposed to be helping. The other group is like Starfleet - careful and diplomatic. In CRPGs I tend to favour the "Starfleet" approach, and that really pays off in Pathfinder. I have never managed to annoy the witch or loose the gnome's wagon in the river, so I don't really know the consequences of that happening.
And I agree that it depends a lot on what you are used to, those of us who played computer games in the early 90s are used to the idea of a bad decision leading to Game Over (and those games where a lot meaner about hints).
The Sierra games definitely had this (namely King's and Space Quest) but the far superior LucasArts graphical adventures did not. There were ways you could die in some of those games (namely the Indiana Jones ones) but that usually involved getting in a fist-fight with Nazis you didn't win or (in the case of Fate of Atlantis) failing the lava puzzle near the end. The absolute pinnacle of the genre is "The Secret of Monkey Island", and there is exactly ONE way to die in that game. You get tossed off the dock with a idol wrapped around your leg, and are underwater. The solution itself is hilariously simple (you just pick up the idol and then walk up the ladder near the dock). But the way you can die is more of an Easter Egg than anything else. You've been told the whole game Guybrush can hold his breath for ten minutes. And he can. And at 10:01, if you don't get out of the water, you die.
I'm not sure I would put the first couple King's Quest game in the category of being either enjoyable or good. Alot of that crap was simply trial and error for the sake of padding out content when back then games simply weren't that long. It's the same as the original principle of most 8-bit Nintendo games. They were hard because if they weren't they could be beaten within a couple of hours.
@sarevok57 , Condolences on your frustrating experience. I know just how you feel.
I thought maybe I'd come back to this game after a cooling off period, but now I'm not so sure. Time will tell. Experiences like you've described definitely put more in the "minus column" for me and this game.
I had been thinking that since there was a dialogue option I didn't see, maybe my own game-ending experience was on me. After all, years ago, I didn't know how to give "all the right answers" to the Baldur's Gate dialogues, and some of those, even when you give good, diplomatic, role-played answers, lead to bad consequences, if the answers you gave didn't fit the dialogue tree puzzle the developers made that lead to the "good" outcome. (I'm thinking specifically of Marl in Feldpost's Inn, and the Flaming Fist officers south of Beregost, but there are a lot of other cases.)
But listening to you describe what's happened to you later in the game, which is reinforced by my own experiences, certainly doesn't encourage me to want to go much further than I already did. I absolutely *hate* the game trope of getting trapped somewhere where you can't rest, and you can't leave. No thank you, Mr. Game Designer!
@Fardragon , I also take the "Starfleet" approach to roleplaying a game, and I didn't feel like this game was respecting my choices at all. Quite the opposite. It seemed designed to punish any approach to any problem that wasn't one specific solution that was designed into it. A human dungeon master in a tabletop game would adjust every encounter on the fly to respond to what his or her players were doing. A computer game can't do that, so programming in single solutions to scenarios, where every other attempted solution but the predetermined "right" solution leads to a total party wipe, is going to frustrate the majority of players, unless they're specifically looking to play a puzzle-like game.
I already kind of regret giving my money to this company. I have a very limited budget for buying games. Now that I know their design philosophy (and I disagree that it's about recreating the tabletop experience for them - I think their philosophy is to make it as hard as possible to finish their game), I will be very unlikely to buy anything else from them in the future.
The Sierra games definitely had this (namely King's and Space Quest) but the far superior LucasArts graphical adventures did not. There were ways you could die in some of those games (namely the Indiana Jones ones) but that usually involved getting in a fist-fight with Nazis you didn't win or (in the case of Fate of Atlantis) failing the lava puzzle near the end.
Before Fate of Atlantis Lucasarts did a graphic adventure based on The Last Crusade. Indy died dozens of times before I completed that.
But there isn’t just one “right” path. I’ve played as Chaotic Good, Lawful Good, Neutral Evil, Lawful Neutral and my current run is True Neutral. In only one case did I feel the game was off-base in it’s alignment-based responses when the CE response was to throw an evil criminal in jail. Otherwise, I felt the evil playthroughs were easier because being bad is often a shortcut to success in RL which the game models brilliantly. It should be hard to play LG.
I don’t agree with all of the mechanical choices, but I can work with them and they never stopped me from enjoying the game.
In PnP, rations weigh 1lb, I believe. Making them weigh 10x as much is a stretch but I RP that by saying it includes water which weighs ~8lbs/gallon and a person needs a gallon/day.
@Fardragon , I also take the "Starfleet" approach to roleplaying a game, and I didn't feel like this game was respecting my choices at all. Quite the opposite. It seemed designed to punish any approach to any problem that wasn't one specific solution that was designed into it. A human dungeon master in a tabletop game would adjust every encounter on the fly to respond to what his or her players were doing. A computer game can't do that, so programming in single solutions to scenarios, where every other attempted solution but the predetermined "right" solution leads to a total party wipe, is going to frustrate the majority of players, unless they're specifically looking to play a puzzle-like game.
I already kind of regret giving my money to this company. I have a very limited budget for buying games. Now that I know their design philosophy (and I disagree that it's about recreating the tabletop experience for them - I think their philosophy is to make it as hard as possible to finish their game), I will be very unlikely to buy anything else from them in the future.
As I said, I have never failed to save Jubilost's wagon, I have never had to fight the scarecrow (and maybe I could kick it's butt anyway? I have no idea how tough it is), I have always negotiated my way through the mites and kobolds in the Sycamore caves (apart from on a chaotic evil playthrough when I killed them all). I don't know what you are doing wrong, but I don't feel there is anything unfair going on (if there is a skill roll required it tells you and gives you the option to try something else), and I have 602 hours game-time logged. In addition, it's the most choice-responsive game I have ever come across, with something different happening on every playthrough.
The Sierra games definitely had this (namely King's and Space Quest) but the far superior LucasArts graphical adventures did not. There were ways you could die in some of those games (namely the Indiana Jones ones) but that usually involved getting in a fist-fight with Nazis you didn't win or (in the case of Fate of Atlantis) failing the lava puzzle near the end.
Before Fate of Atlantis Lucasarts did a graphic adventure based on The Last Crusade. Indy died dozens of times before I completed that.
Yes, it was one of my first games. I still remember meticulously plotting out in my head how I was going to approach the order of the rooms in the Austrian castle to avoid combat (because it was god awful) while I was supposed to be paying attention in church, but also because there was a very real possibility at that point of getting yourself save file stuck in a situation you simply couldn't get out of.
I guess the people that like Kingmaker appreciate it for the reasons that other people dislike it. Challenging fights, choices with consequences, deep character builds.
It makes sense there are punishing outcomes from throwing rocks at a witch’s house or going into a dungeon without provisions or leaving town without a rope. Every adventurer needs a rope! And a 10’ pole! I can’t believe they forgot to add 10’ poles as a buyable item. Don’t leave home without it! Sorry, that was a little PnP humor.
I guess the people that like Kingmaker appreciate it for the reasons that other people dislike it. Challenging fights, choices with consequences, deep character builds.
It makes sense there are punishing outcomes from throwing rocks at a witch’s house or going into a dungeon without provisions or leaving town without a rope. Every adventurer needs a rope! And a 10’ pole! I can’t believe they forgot to add 10’ poles as a buyable item. Don’t leave home without it! Sorry, that was a little PnP humor.
Yes never leave town without your large sack and your ten foot pole.
It's funny we're mentioning the 10' pole, because the most famous use of the 10' pole was at the very beginning of Tomb of Horrors, which was specifically designed to kill expert players. I don't think Kingmaker is that kind of meatgrinder, but it's difficulty on it's core rule setting is the main reason it isn't going to be compared favorably to Baldur's Gate when all is said and done. There is nothing inherently wrong with making a difficult game, or even making one designed to test veteran players. But it's almost as if the entire game is functioning on the level of Durlag's Tower or Watcher's Keep. And it does make it wholly unsuited for no-reload runs.
I just finished a Last Azlanti run. It’s basically Iron Man - you only get one save slot that gets erased when charname dies. I chickened out and took the endgame option that avoids the Fey Apocalypse as I do have my limits :-)
I just finished a Last Azlanti run. It’s basically Iron Man - you only get one save slot that gets erased when charname dies. I chickened out and took the endgame option that avoids the Fey Apocalypse as I do have my limits :-)
See, I love that the absolutely brutal last chapter is completely optional.
Well, I hope nobody minds if I hijack this thread. I'm going to give a no reload run a shot. I normally play on challenging, but since I never have attempted a no/minimal reload run in any game, and am a habitual reloader, I'm going to play on settings closer to normal. I also have completed this game a few times, and have quite a few runs I didn't finish. This being my first no reload attempt at anything, ever, I'm not going to shy away from meta-gaming and using my knowledge of the game, outcomes and locations. In general, I will try to stick to my alignment, though. Feel free to try your own if you don't like the way I'm doing things. My hope here is to get more people interested in the game, as well as show off some strategies on how to deal with some of the situations.
Difficulty is mostly normal, but I have only active party gets XP, skill user gets all the XP and party's speed depend's on weight you're carrying
I'm running with an Abyssal Eldritch Scion Magus Tiefling with the Pitborn bloodline named Demona. I went with Lawful Evil. First feat I take is skill focus persuasion and I take shield and ray of enfeeblement for my spells. Point spread is 18/14/10/10/8/18.
I'm going to just gloss over the tutorial. I swiped the gold from the armory, did the statue puzzle successfully (well duh), and let the guards Val was trying to save burn. With my decisions and the dialogs I chose, I got a starting party of myself, Amiri, Harrim and Jaethal. I think it'll become pretty clear why I wanted this group shortly. When levelling up, my main takes shocking grasp as her spell.
We head over to Oleg's trading post to start trying to reclaim the region. I picked the evil option when dealing with the bandits, and they crap their pants and leave.
Talking to Oleg, he mentions they've got alchemist's fire, so I tell him to use that against the bandits. I poke around the camp and fine a box of traps (passed the perception to check to find it) and barrel of tar (passed the lore nature check), and I find a rope on the southwest tower. I talk to Bokken and ask him for help, he gives a potion, and I make my persuasion check to get him to help during the fight, although his help is a bit of a double edge sword.
With that we're ready to deal with the bandits. Looks like I got lucky and it's raining hard when the fight starts. This makes everyone move slower due to difficult terrain, but also makes all ranged attacks take a penalty. We're all melee types, so this works in our favor. They take damage from the alchemist's fire, gets stuck in the tar, and die on traps. Harrim casts bane as soon as he's in range of the leader, and the rest of us just move through and mop up.
After the fight Jaethal gets lucky and finds a cache of gold coins under the stair case as we head up to bed.
Now we hock all the crap the bandits had, talk to everyone to get their quests and I head out to Fangberry Cave. We mow through pretty much everything on the above ground area. I know there's a nasty fight with some swarms in here, so we cast all our buffs, shield, diving shield and bless. Jaethal and Harrim equip torches.
Here's where my Tiefling bloodline selection really gets to shine. As an opener I drop a stone call on the two swarms and the first spider, killing the two swarms outright. I didn't move my main quite quick enough, and she got hit in the back when the third swarm came in before Jaethal could start tanking it with a torch. Harrim does a treat affliction to stop the poison while myself and Amiri chuck alchemist's fire and acid flasks at the last swarm. Jaethal is immune to the poison, so she just tanks them with the torch and we mop up the last spiders. I had given Amiri the hat that gives a +1 to all skill checks, and she gets lucky with her lore nature check on the fangberries on the first try.
We head back to Oleg's and rest a couple of days, so my main gets her strength back, and I have just enough cash to buy a +1 scimitar. For a Magus you want a high crit chance weapon.
I tackle the ancient tomb next. I switch out everyone to ranged weapons before casting buffs and approaching Tartuccio's party. I make the persuasion check to convince Linzi to join me. I open with another stone call, which causes massive damage to the mercs and slows them all way down. As they close in Amiri and I switch to melee, but not before I hit the merc leader with a ray of enfeeblement and Harrim casts Bane. Amiri came close to dropping, but with some potion gulping and Harrim's spells, she stays up and we polish off the mercs. When leaving Amiri makes both Lore checks when tracking Tartuccio. I opt to follow the path with many footprints, and wind up in a Kobold ambush. Harrim of course opens with a Bane spell, Linzi starts singing, and my main charges one of the alchemists getting a crit and killing him on the first turn. Amiri and Harrim are tanking the Kobold warriors (I have her sword and boarding now), while Jaethal and Linzi shoot at the other Alchemist and my main switches to attacking him. I've got fire resistance being a Tiefling, so the alchemist can't really do much to me, and the rest of the fight goes pretty easy.
I level up my main again. I take combat casting for my 3rd level feat, arcane accuracy for my magus arcana and grease for my spell.
We rest, and I get sent a nightmare. I'm actually glad I got hit with this nightmare here, since what I need to do is close by. It prevents my main from being able to rest and tells me to go to Nettle's Crossing.
I make my way to Nettle's crossing and meet the undead Davik Nettle who wants me to kill the Stag Lord. I'm playing things safe here, so I accept. Why not take a quest for something I was going to do anyways?
@DrHappyAngry , Brilliant! I was hoping somebody would pick up the torch, after my failure. Best of luck, and I will be following you and rooting for you. If you prove it can be done, maybe others will follow. You might even inspire me to swallow my pride and give it another chance eventually.
(But if I ever do, maybe I ought to finish the game at least once and start any future minimal reload runs armed with metaknowledge.)
We swing by the waterlogged lowland that we passed by to get to Nettle's crossing and rest before heading into there. It's a book event, we make our nature, mobility rolls but fail the lore religion check, I decided to eat the bug and Amiri made the fortitude check. The bug makes me trip out and a stash with an emerald is revealed.
Next up, the Thorn Ford for Svetlana's quest for her ring. We go ranged to start the fight against Kressle and I drop a stone call again, then switch to melee as the enemies come into ranged, Linzi sings and Harrim does another Bane. I pick the Lawful Evil option to conditionally release Jhod and loot the camp. Amiri and Linzi level up. I take combat trick Point Blank shot for Linzi and pick hideous laughter for her spell, this will come in handy. Amiri's a 2nd level Barbarian, so now I switch her to a 2-handed fighter and take dodge and armor focus heavy to increase her survivability. Nearby is some wine that i pass the perception check to spot, and I break the bottles. I know I just failed a lore nature check that the game doesn't display that would have let me poison the wine. This'll make things tougher down the road. Jaethal hits level 3 from that check, and I take dodge and precise strike for her feats and remove fear for a spell.
Pushing west across the Ford, we bump into the Technic League slavers and I opt to fight them. Linzi starts singing, my main does a flanking manuevre to the left and charges the main mage, while Amiri and Harrim tank the frontline plus throw up a bane spell while Amiri fights defensively. As soon as Linzi's Bard Song goes up, I pause the game to get off a Hideous laughter on one of the technic league fighters, while Jaethal comes around the other side and uses that necklace's ability to cast color spray. My main gets blinded by one of the wizards, but using arcane accuracy, I'm able to hit the main mage with a shocking grasp and switch to attacking the other mage. I whittle down the two fighters and keep hitting them with hideos laughter and color spray to keep them down. My magus gets hit with fear and goes down after an unlucky attack of opportunity, but is still alive. The rest of the enemies are pretty beat up, so we make short work of them. Linzi got blinded at some point during the fight too, and I only have the one remove blindness potion, so my Magus chugs it. Jaethal and Amiri passed all the lore checks when leaving the area to find the Technic League encampment and Harrim finally gets to level 3, and I take extra channel.
We rest and head over to the technic league encampment. I approache the camp from the East and take out the 2 sentries. I split Amiri off a little to the South of the rest of the party before untying the prisoners. Linzi sings and tries a hideos laughter and we attack. Amiri charges the main mage while raging and makes short work of her before she can get off any summons, we finish off the rest of the goons and have made some new friends. I hire on Reg and Octavia, and bring Octavia right into the party. We loot the camp, with a chain shirt +1 for Demona and head back to Oleg's to unload the loot and see what we can buy. Just a reminder, I have XP sharing off, so Octavia's only level 2 when I get her, despite most of the party being level 3 now. As the trap monkey, she'll catch up fast, though.
Back at Oleg's I can just barely afford a scroll of remove blindness and a small bag of holding. Before we hit the road again, Oleg asks us to kill the tuskgutter and Jhod wants us to find the temple of elk.
We start heading out West with the first stop at Old Oak. This is the first Troll fight with a man eater troll. This is a tough fight for my level, so we buff up with shield bless and divine shield, Demona, Amiri and Harrim charge in with Octavia and Jaethal flanking to use color spray, Linzi singing and casting hideous laughter. Amiri takes a couple big hits, but is still up, one of color sprays gets through and Jaethal gets a 41 damage critical hit. Right when the troll gets out of the color spray a hideous laughter gets through and we finish him off with Octavia's acid splash killing him. The prize for this fight is a +2 strength belt for me and a +1 crossbow for Linzi.
Moving further West towards the abandoned hut, we spot another area, Oak-That Strayed. We rest before heading in. There's an insane Dryad waiting for us there. We use our usual buffs to start the fight. The goal here is to take her down as fast as possible before she drops her nasty spells, so we want to go full offensive here and charge in. My main goes for a shocking grasp after the initial charge and Amiri rages, Octavia launches a snow ball sneak attack. The dryad managed to get her spike stones spell off, so it's important to not move or I'll take more damage. The shocking grasp splats her and we just have to wait for the spke stones spell to end before walking around.
On to the abandoned hut. We pick up the herbs by the entrance, we'll want those later. See some visions, fight some wolves and find the druids notes by a caern. We put the herbs in a chest in the hut and get a +1 short sword and a book that'll be needed for a quest later.
We go on to the temple of elk. Kill the frogs at the entrance and move on to the wolves at the south. I use the gate as a bottleneck so only one can fight us at a time, Octavia manages to hit them all with a color spray, making the fight a lot easier. I came within an inch of dying from the boar in the northwest. The bear-like treant fight was a breeze, standard buffs, charged in, Harrim used boneshaker and it went down before I could even get a color spray off. Great, a pretty boy priest, sure you can help us... for now.
We continue south to the tusk gutter's lair. We put up the standard buffs and I ignore Amiri, and we all just attack it. I use my shocking grasp to deal big damage, but it decides to switch targets to me, and I come within 2HP of dying. Harrim finishes it with another bone shaker spell.
Next stop 3 pine islet to the southwest. We put up normal buffs and try to take down the Tatzlworms as quick as possible since they're poisonous. I open each battle with a charge and have Linzi singing. Fortunately nobody gets poisoned.
I head East, since I'm out of space to go that way. I spot the Glade in the Wilderness, and am very tempted to drop by, since I know there's a sweet weapon for Jaethal. But I don't like the idea of taking on that wolf pack at levels 2-3 in a no reload, so decide to play it safe and keep moving to Old Mesa. There's a greater werewolf there which means +1 or better weapons to hit. Amiri has a +1 long sword and I've got a +1 scimitar and Linzi has a +1 crossbow, so I give Harrim the +1 sickle I got off the insane dryad and Jaethal gets the +1 quarter staff I found at the temple of elk. I spam color spray and hideous laughter while everyone else charges in. I use shocking grasp repeatedly with arcane accuracy to make it hit. He rips up Amiri pretty good, but she can handle it. He was packing a +1 breast plate and it goes to Jaethal.
I keep going east to Riverine Rise. This area is pretty easy, just a water elemental so we brute forced it. On a dead body we found a bunch cure blindness scrolls. Wish we had those earlier.
I head north and pass by Ratnook Hill. This spot killed @BelgarathMTH and I know it well, so I pass by it and go to Old Sycamore.
I had a 4 day weekend since I went out of town hiking, so had today as a recovery day and got dump a lot of time into this, so I'll probably slow down a bit after this.
We enter old Sycamore and talk to Kesten and he clears me of being a spy (duh). We kill some deer and then go east, killing some frogs. Linzi makes the mobility check to climb up the log to a secret spot with some loot.although both Linzi and Octavia fails to pick one of the chests. We go North and find a bandit camp, and for a change we've got the drop on them after quietly disabling all their traps. I surround the necromancer and murder him in his sleep and Octavia lets loose a color spray on 2 of the others, it's short work from there. Now their stuff is mine.
I go West and kill some tatzlworms and a pack of thylacines. We try to climb down a cliff and fail the athletics check and all take some damage, but at least we made it down. I kill some mites and take their cold iron dagger. Going north we kill more thylacines and Linzi finally hits level 3. I take Precise shot on her, so she'll be a lot more accurate with ranged weapons from now on.
We go north and kill more deer and loot a camp. I pass up resting there and keep going east and bump into wolves and a bunch of deer and a megaloceros, they're not much trouble and go down easy. We go north and kill some more wolves, then bump into a talking warg. He offers up a treasure if I bring him someone to eat, I'm evil so I take him up on the deal.
I climb up the roots of the tree to the level above, Linzi making the skill check for mobility. I go west and remove the trap, then get ambushed by centipedes, they're weak but poisonous, so it's important to kill them fast. I keep going killing thylacines and looting. Octavia levels up, and I make sure to take accomplished sneak attacker and the skills she needs to go arcane trickster.
I go South to the central plateau and bump into some Kobolds, I send them to the Warg for my reward and head back to him to get it after picking up a moon radish for Bokken. The warg tells me to look by a lonely tree and Demona hits Eldritch Scion level 4. I go for more strength. I finally get level 2 spells, so I pick mirror image (absolute must) and frigid touch since I'm a magus. I head over to the tree the warg told me about and Jaethal manages to dig it up with an athletics check. Here's where my meta-knowledge comes in handy, the chest has a really high level finger of death trap on it, so I have Jaethal open it, since she's already dead it won't affect her. Theres a phylactery of negative channeling and some scrolls, that'll fetch some cash back at Oleg's
Now I rest and head over to the eastern side of the plateau. There's a lonely shambling mound. I open with a stone call and follow up with Bane and ray of enfeeblement. He beats on Amiri pretty bad, but she chugs some potions and Harrim keeps her in the fight. I get lucky and Octavia staggers him with a snowball sneak attack and we proceed to beat on him and loot the area.
Next stop Pine Patch for an encounter with Tartuccio. We kill his kobold servants and lot the place.
Before we go back to tackle old sycamore, it's time to head back to Oleg's and dump the loot and get new gear. Along the way I take a detour east and clear out Two-Rivers Field. It's a pretty minor area, a few traps some wolves, minor loot. It's a minor spot, so I'm going to gloss over it.
[img][/img]
I head back to Oleg's turn in the moon radish, tell Jhod I made it to the Temple of Elk and let Oleg know the tusk gutter's dead. After I dump all the loot I've found, I finally can afford some decent stuff and Oleg's apparently gotten a new shipment of goods with lots of new stuff to choose from. I finally can put Amiri in some full plate +1 and now flip her to a masterwork 2 handed sword and pick up a headband of alluring Charisma for myself. Jaethal and Amiri level up to level 4, I boost Jaethal's wisdom and Amiri's strength. Now we're ready to tackle Old Sycamore and hit the game's first real dungeon.
Only had a short bit of time to play recently so only got a bit of the way into Old Sycamore
At old sycamore the mites and kobolds are fighting. Since the kobolds are being manipulated by Tartuccio, I side with the mites and kill the kobolds. I move through the map killing the kobolds and Harrim levels up to level 4, then rest before I head inside Old Sycamore.
Inside Old Sycamore, the mite gate keeper wants me to bring him some spider mandibles. I explore around, the queen tells me to kill the kobold chieftain and bring his branch back to open the door to where Tartuccio's hiding. AThe top level I can get to now just have some centipedes sparsely placed, but one of them nicks me and I get poisoned. At this point Harrim's got lesser restoration, so we can handle that. We pick up the loot from where we can get to at this point and head down to the old sycamore depths.
Following the passage we find a hidden area with mite hermit hiding in it, I keep bugging him and he goes hostile. I take some scrolls of lesser restoration off his corpse. We follow the tunnel northwest, and come to a wall with a couple panels and a switch on the wall. I put up my buffs, put 2 people on the panels and Linzi flips the switch. There's 3 tough skeleton warriors inside. One of them had a masterwork greataxe, which I give to Amiri and in a chest I find +1 half plate which Harrim puts on.
We follow the tunnel south and encounter a mob of skeletons with a few champions mixed in. This is where having Jaethal sucks, since if I use channeling to damage the skeletons she'll get hit too, and Harrim doesn't have selective channelling.
At this point, we're getting a little low on spells, so to play on the safe side, I pop back out that exit I passed nearby and rest
I go back into the Old Sycamore depths and pick up where I left off heading South till I hit the bottom of the map and then head East fighting my way through some spiders. My main's got the worst luck and gets poisoned again, but Harrim uses treat affliction to stop it and after the fight I get my strength back with lesser restoration. Octavia levels up, and I boost her intelligence and now have the prerequisites for arcane trickster, so she can take that next level. I knew there was a web trap up ahead, but even with using that wand of find traps she missed it and we got caught in the web and swarmed by spiders, one of them huge. Fortunately it was Jaethal that got swarmed, and she's immune to poison, we switch to range and kill the spiders.
The path leads us north through more spiders. The path turns north and I pick up one of the bridge levers and climb down a ledge going west and north. We go through some trippy vegetation and find another hidden area with a headband of wisdo +2 that harrim equips, then keep following the tunnel. In the northeast we find the big dead spider and harvest it's mandibles.
following the tunnel in the norther portion of the caves we find some frogs with some loot.
I head back South to the central chamber and know there's a big fight coming. The game even gives warning signs that something large moved through here recently. I throw up all my buffs before attacking the centipedes in the central chamber. I charge in killing the first few centipedes, but more rush in, so I start splitting up the party. Amiri goes north to kill the one up there, I go south with Harrim and Jaethal goes southeast to cover that side. Once the little centipedes are down, I move Jaethal up to the big centipede first, so it'll shoot poison at her, then close with everyone else. I throw everything I can, shocking grasp, snowball sneak attack and boneshaker. It goes down and I loot it's lair. After looting the side passages I head back outside to rest.
We head back into the depths and take route up to the first level at the far east of the depths. There's a few kobolds guarding the door to the chieftain, so we cut through them. Before opening the door to where the kobold chieftain's at, we put up all our buffs and a remove fear. Demona goes straight for the alchemist while the rest of the party fights it out with kobold sentinels. Harrim drops a bane when in range of the chieftain, and we slaughter all the kobolds. Oh look, it's that knight who thought she was too good for me. Fine, lady go back to Oleg's while I loot the place.
I head south from the chieftain's lair and the tunnel starts to go west, with a big chamber full of kobolds at the end of it. Linzi finally hits level 4 and I take heroism and glitterdust. The kobolds in the main chamber are pretty easy, i just make sure to target the mages first.
After looting the big chamber we turn south and find a broken bridge and octavia repairs, we move east disabling traps as we go and kill more kobolds at the end of the tunnel then back track and follow the tunnel west through some spiders and dodge some traps. I loot the rest of the area and head back down stairs and back outside to rest before the big fight.
I head back to the main entrance of old sycamore and enter there. Let's finish some quests first. I give the gate keeper the mandibles and he gives me the other lever to fix the bridge, so I head down there now to get my xp for repairing it. Then I head back to the mite queen to turn in the quest for killing the kobold chieftain. All that remains is the big showdown with Tartuccio.
[img][/img]
Before going in, I cast all the buffs I have, shield and mirror image on my magus, Linzi casts heroism on me too, bless, divine shield, Octavia puts up mage armor and cat's grace. Jaethal even uses divine favor. We head in and have some banter with Tartuccio before the fight starts. My magus rushes him, so the fireball misses her, and kills most of his henchmen, but does massive damage to the party, so harrim uses his channeling, even though it'll heal anyone in range. My magus keeps pounding Tartuccio while the rest of the party mops up the other kobolds. Tartuccio goes down with a critical hit from a shocking grasp for a total of 45 damage, and is gibbed. We make short work of the rest of the kobolds and loot the place. There's a +1 heavy shield for Harrim and another +1 ring of deflection.
[img][/img] [img][/img]
I uphold my deal with the mites and give the queen the branch. A cut scene plays while an apparition revives Tartuccio and we head back to Oleg's to dump the loot. Next stop, the Stag Lord's fort.
Comments
Interesting. I didn't see the "ring the bell" option hiding under the "toss a light pebble" option. I still disagree with the outcome of "tossing a light pebble" being that the window broke and the gate crashed down, and the witch attacked with no chance to talk. I also disagree with not being able to apologize and explain what happened. I'll think about whether I want to try it again at a later date.
For an encounter that you're supposed to be able to talk your way through, I still think it's bad writing.
*smiles as he feels the relief from @Arvia 's spell. Yep, when a game starts making me feel like that, it's definitely time to play something else. I'm in a stressful time at my own work (spring recital, spring scholarship and orchestra auditions), and the stress from playing this game was starting to be felt mixed in with real life work stress. That's the opposite effect of what I play games for. It's definitely time to switch games and play something that is more relaxing to me.
Arcane Trickster using Ranged Legerdemain has unlimited attempts to pick the same lock. Careful using RL to disarm traps. While it is safer, you receive no experience for disarming with RL.
Edit: I hope the devs implement “take 10” or “take 20” rules for normal lock picking. Doing it in a dungeon should incur some opportunity for random encounters but otherwise I think this would solve most people’s issue. They already have a mechanic for passing time, just make it take time and potentially a random encounter or fatigue or something.
this statement couldn't be more accurate even if it tried, this right here is the holy grail of what this game is
it really flusters me on what is up with the devs of this game? i feel as if their thought process was; okay, we want to make an RPG game but all the western RPGs out there are way too easy and so many people make mods to make them hard, so lets just make one that is not only absurdly difficult, but unfair as hell at the same time, and with this, it almost feels like they take pride in being this difficult, im actually amazed that they didn't use this slogan to sell their game; You think Dark Souls was hard, well you should try out this game! Its like playing Dark Souls where your controller is a bunch of banana peels and you have to play it blind folded in a straight jacket!
now even though it is 100% true that you can't compare this game to baldur's gate because it is definitely not, BG, let me be a hypocrite for half a second here; the claims are, that when BG first came out, it was difficult, perhaps you died many a many a time again and again, BUT even with that said, it never felt like you died for unfair reasons, i remember when i first played the game back when i was a youngin 2 decades ago i knew nothing about the difficulty setting and the person who owned the game had it set to insane difficulty, and i was dying ALL the time, but i never got frustrated, it never felt unfair, because each time i did, i almost made it out, and back then, i had no idea what i was doing and i was still loving it, and then when you finally hit some levels and get some gear, then you dont die nearly as often and out of nowhere, and the thing that is nice about the BG series, as soon as you hit around level 3 or 4 you can basically when any battle with a whole different amount of strategies
in pathfinder, this game is just punishing you, not only are the mechanics a bit whacky ( like how you are immediately slowed when you enter battle? what? just so you can't kite lol? hmm.... ) but there is no learning curve, its basically; you MUST play a certain way and if you dont you get punished, and even when you grow up levels and get better gear the game says; oh, you think you're better now eh? well time to make the game 10 times harder, you know, just for the lulz kek, ugh, and with that, there is no "multiple ways to do said encounter" , this is the one problem i have with 3rd version type DnD rules, because spell DCs are so low at low levels they are basically useless, and enemy stats are just so good, that it comes down to only being able to do a small handful of things to get by, in BG for example, the spell hold person ( level 2 cleric spell ) is still GOOD even in ToB for pete's sake, but in the 3rd edition universe, low level crowd control spells get weak so fast, that they become completely useless and then you have to try and change them to inconsequential damaging spells because there is no other option, and pathfinder kingmaker suffers from this HARD, especially any spell that requires a fortitude save, OMG was does EVERYTHING have huge fortitude saves in this game? basically if you are going to cast spells that require a fortitude save, just go in thinking that the enemy is going to pass it, because 95% of the time, they are
needless to say, pathfinder kingmaker is developed in a very strange way and the thing that annoys me the most, is there is actually many aspects of the game that are great, but they just cant even come close enough to make up for the crap that is not great
at this time, im only playing this game out of spite, and once i beat the game, the chance of me playing it ever again, is going to be pretty damn close to 0%, and if owlcat games ( or whatever they are called ) ever makes another RPG game again, i will be very skeptical about getting it, and see what madness hides behind it before i even fathom about getting it
And then there is this: is anyone going to be soloing Pathfinder: Kingmaker in the near future, or ever?? Because one of the things that has kept BG going so long is that the game and the world it's set in give you to tools to accomplish just about anything given the knowledge and will to do so. I don't doubt it's possible, but I have to imagine the level of know-how needed in regards to the Pathfinder rule-set would have to be out of this world. There are some Youtube videos of people making some significant progress, but none of them seem anywhere near actually completing the game.
Anyway, back to playing my Tactical Leader of Cayden.
so first off, things were looking good, that barbarian fight went a lot better than anticipated, there was a huge storm going so everyone was snailing across the map, and i thought; maybe i will try stealthing into that battle, but luckily because i was in stealth mode and there was a storm going, i was walking so slowly for that scripted event it didnt wait for my team to get to where they had to be for things to continue and the fight started and my companions were in an optimal spot; like how they would have been if not for pathfinder's shenanigans
so that was done, then i dont remember much of what happened afterwards, but the cyclops dungeon, oh my friggin' god, that is where madness starts, first off; i never bring rations with me EVER, because A ) they are way too damn heavy for no reason, and B )all the way up to this point of the game i never needed to, so i learned that the hard way that once that door closes behind you, you better have brought a bagjillion of those, next that raven wad pocket was asking for names and such, and from the tool tips that i've seen if a certain baddie ( which i was certain was in this dungeon ) knew your name, they would be stronger against that character, so i tried setting it so my backline peeps where getting their names selected ( which was also BS because i didn't want to give out anyone's name, like how obviously suspicious this was, but anways, that also would have bit me in the ass later
so anywho, here i was naively thinking that; okay, maybe its just one level, with mediocre baddies and a big boss at the end and all should be good..... lol, LOL?! lol, do i not know what game i am playing? *sigh* so anyways without resting, i almost made it to the end of the first level ( i was one fight away from the big ferocious dread something er rather zombie chums ) but at that point, i was completely drained, and i had no items or spells or nothing to continue on, and the game with its unmerciless BS where these zombie wads literally needed 19s or 20s to hit my guys and were hitting them ALL THE TIME, wtf mate? after attempting to fight just the 2 zombie clerics and the 3 other normal cyclops zombies, i finally had enough, i just set the difficulty to story mode so i could just get the hell out of this dungeon because i was ready to "hulk smash" something, which would be a bad idea since everything in this room is not cheap
so anyways i was reluctantly continued on story mode difficulty being upset from my defeat, just to learn that this dungeon was full of dumbass surprises that would have been stupidly brutal based on my decisions to the point where i would have to start this garbage all over again, so thank god for story mode? ugh
so after that crap dungeon was over, i put it back to the "normal type" difficulty i was playing before and hoping now, that i finally had time to do stuff, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, i keep forgetting that im playing a game that despises my existance, as soon as im done this cyclops load of crap, i finally get to go back to the kingdom just so that 2 of my party members/3 advisors just pissed right off and went to la la land, and a million more quests opened up saying; hurry, quick get there before its too late! and all that crap, and i STILL have this curse part 4 shit to deal with
so, no more, im done, the game finally broke me down, i just cant do it, i tried so hard, and so long to defend this game and give it a chance, but no what, a GOOD game doesnt need defending, a good game is a game that puts a smile on your face and is a game that you just want to play 30 hours straight and just cant stop playing because you are having so much fun, for me, pathfinder kingmaker is unfortunately not a good game, and as far as i am concerned it can burn in hell for wasting 125 hours of my life
so if you like this game, kudos to you and i hope you have enjoyed your experience, but for me there is no way in HELL you will ever convince me that this game is good or worth playing more of *sigh*
oh well, i guess i can just continue working on my DnD adventure and at least in that i can make it so my players dont battle bullshit/put my players in scenarios where they cant win without godlike divination metagaming knowledge
But I guess there is also the issue of "preferred approach" to problems. I play in two PnP campaigns. In one group the party are like The Guardians of the Galaxy - insulting and robbing the people we are supposed to be helping. The other group is like Starfleet - careful and diplomatic. In CRPGs I tend to favour the "Starfleet" approach, and that really pays off in Pathfinder. I have never managed to annoy the witch or loose the gnome's wagon in the river, so I don't really know the consequences of that happening.
And I agree that it depends a lot on what you are used to, those of us who played computer games in the early 90s are used to the idea of a bad decision leading to Game Over (and those games where a lot meaner about hints).
The Sierra games definitely had this (namely King's and Space Quest) but the far superior LucasArts graphical adventures did not. There were ways you could die in some of those games (namely the Indiana Jones ones) but that usually involved getting in a fist-fight with Nazis you didn't win or (in the case of Fate of Atlantis) failing the lava puzzle near the end. The absolute pinnacle of the genre is "The Secret of Monkey Island", and there is exactly ONE way to die in that game. You get tossed off the dock with a idol wrapped around your leg, and are underwater. The solution itself is hilariously simple (you just pick up the idol and then walk up the ladder near the dock). But the way you can die is more of an Easter Egg than anything else. You've been told the whole game Guybrush can hold his breath for ten minutes. And he can. And at 10:01, if you don't get out of the water, you die.
I'm not sure I would put the first couple King's Quest game in the category of being either enjoyable or good. Alot of that crap was simply trial and error for the sake of padding out content when back then games simply weren't that long. It's the same as the original principle of most 8-bit Nintendo games. They were hard because if they weren't they could be beaten within a couple of hours.
I thought maybe I'd come back to this game after a cooling off period, but now I'm not so sure. Time will tell. Experiences like you've described definitely put more in the "minus column" for me and this game.
I had been thinking that since there was a dialogue option I didn't see, maybe my own game-ending experience was on me. After all, years ago, I didn't know how to give "all the right answers" to the Baldur's Gate dialogues, and some of those, even when you give good, diplomatic, role-played answers, lead to bad consequences, if the answers you gave didn't fit the dialogue tree puzzle the developers made that lead to the "good" outcome. (I'm thinking specifically of Marl in Feldpost's Inn, and the Flaming Fist officers south of Beregost, but there are a lot of other cases.)
But listening to you describe what's happened to you later in the game, which is reinforced by my own experiences, certainly doesn't encourage me to want to go much further than I already did. I absolutely *hate* the game trope of getting trapped somewhere where you can't rest, and you can't leave. No thank you, Mr. Game Designer!
@Fardragon , I also take the "Starfleet" approach to roleplaying a game, and I didn't feel like this game was respecting my choices at all. Quite the opposite. It seemed designed to punish any approach to any problem that wasn't one specific solution that was designed into it. A human dungeon master in a tabletop game would adjust every encounter on the fly to respond to what his or her players were doing. A computer game can't do that, so programming in single solutions to scenarios, where every other attempted solution but the predetermined "right" solution leads to a total party wipe, is going to frustrate the majority of players, unless they're specifically looking to play a puzzle-like game.
I already kind of regret giving my money to this company. I have a very limited budget for buying games. Now that I know their design philosophy (and I disagree that it's about recreating the tabletop experience for them - I think their philosophy is to make it as hard as possible to finish their game), I will be very unlikely to buy anything else from them in the future.
Before Fate of Atlantis Lucasarts did a graphic adventure based on The Last Crusade. Indy died dozens of times before I completed that.
I don’t agree with all of the mechanical choices, but I can work with them and they never stopped me from enjoying the game.
In PnP, rations weigh 1lb, I believe. Making them weigh 10x as much is a stretch but I RP that by saying it includes water which weighs ~8lbs/gallon and a person needs a gallon/day.
As I said, I have never failed to save Jubilost's wagon, I have never had to fight the scarecrow (and maybe I could kick it's butt anyway? I have no idea how tough it is), I have always negotiated my way through the mites and kobolds in the Sycamore caves (apart from on a chaotic evil playthrough when I killed them all). I don't know what you are doing wrong, but I don't feel there is anything unfair going on (if there is a skill roll required it tells you and gives you the option to try something else), and I have 602 hours game-time logged. In addition, it's the most choice-responsive game I have ever come across, with something different happening on every playthrough.
Yes, it was one of my first games. I still remember meticulously plotting out in my head how I was going to approach the order of the rooms in the Austrian castle to avoid combat (because it was god awful) while I was supposed to be paying attention in church, but also because there was a very real possibility at that point of getting yourself save file stuck in a situation you simply couldn't get out of.
It makes sense there are punishing outcomes from throwing rocks at a witch’s house or going into a dungeon without provisions or leaving town without a rope. Every adventurer needs a rope! And a 10’ pole! I can’t believe they forgot to add 10’ poles as a buyable item. Don’t leave home without it! Sorry, that was a little PnP humor.
Yes never leave town without your large sack and your ten foot pole.
See, I love that the absolutely brutal last chapter is completely optional.
Difficulty is mostly normal, but I have only active party gets XP, skill user gets all the XP and party's speed depend's on weight you're carrying
I'm running with an Abyssal Eldritch Scion Magus Tiefling with the Pitborn bloodline named Demona. I went with Lawful Evil. First feat I take is skill focus persuasion and I take shield and ray of enfeeblement for my spells. Point spread is 18/14/10/10/8/18.
I'm going to just gloss over the tutorial. I swiped the gold from the armory, did the statue puzzle successfully (well duh), and let the guards Val was trying to save burn. With my decisions and the dialogs I chose, I got a starting party of myself, Amiri, Harrim and Jaethal. I think it'll become pretty clear why I wanted this group shortly. When levelling up, my main takes shocking grasp as her spell.
We head over to Oleg's trading post to start trying to reclaim the region. I picked the evil option when dealing with the bandits, and they crap their pants and leave.
Talking to Oleg, he mentions they've got alchemist's fire, so I tell him to use that against the bandits. I poke around the camp and fine a box of traps (passed the perception to check to find it) and barrel of tar (passed the lore nature check), and I find a rope on the southwest tower. I talk to Bokken and ask him for help, he gives a potion, and I make my persuasion check to get him to help during the fight, although his help is a bit of a double edge sword.
With that we're ready to deal with the bandits. Looks like I got lucky and it's raining hard when the fight starts. This makes everyone move slower due to difficult terrain, but also makes all ranged attacks take a penalty. We're all melee types, so this works in our favor. They take damage from the alchemist's fire, gets stuck in the tar, and die on traps. Harrim casts bane as soon as he's in range of the leader, and the rest of us just move through and mop up.
Here's where my Tiefling bloodline selection really gets to shine. As an opener I drop a stone call on the two swarms and the first spider, killing the two swarms outright. I didn't move my main quite quick enough, and she got hit in the back when the third swarm came in before Jaethal could start tanking it with a torch. Harrim does a treat affliction to stop the poison while myself and Amiri chuck alchemist's fire and acid flasks at the last swarm. Jaethal is immune to the poison, so she just tanks them with the torch and we mop up the last spiders. I had given Amiri the hat that gives a +1 to all skill checks, and she gets lucky with her lore nature check on the fangberries on the first try.
We head back to Oleg's and rest a couple of days, so my main gets her strength back, and I have just enough cash to buy a +1 scimitar. For a Magus you want a high crit chance weapon.
I tackle the ancient tomb next. I switch out everyone to ranged weapons before casting buffs and approaching Tartuccio's party. I make the persuasion check to convince Linzi to join me. I open with another stone call, which causes massive damage to the mercs and slows them all way down. As they close in Amiri and I switch to melee, but not before I hit the merc leader with a ray of enfeeblement and Harrim casts Bane. Amiri came close to dropping, but with some potion gulping and Harrim's spells, she stays up and we polish off the mercs. When leaving Amiri makes both Lore checks when tracking Tartuccio. I opt to follow the path with many footprints, and wind up in a Kobold ambush. Harrim of course opens with a Bane spell, Linzi starts singing, and my main charges one of the alchemists getting a crit and killing him on the first turn. Amiri and Harrim are tanking the Kobold warriors (I have her sword and boarding now), while Jaethal and Linzi shoot at the other Alchemist and my main switches to attacking him. I've got fire resistance being a Tiefling, so the alchemist can't really do much to me, and the rest of the fight goes pretty easy.
I level up my main again. I take combat casting for my 3rd level feat, arcane accuracy for my magus arcana and grease for my spell.
We rest, and I get sent a nightmare. I'm actually glad I got hit with this nightmare here, since what I need to do is close by. It prevents my main from being able to rest and tells me to go to Nettle's Crossing.
(But if I ever do, maybe I ought to finish the game at least once and start any future minimal reload runs armed with metaknowledge.)
Next up, the Thorn Ford for Svetlana's quest for her ring. We go ranged to start the fight against Kressle and I drop a stone call again, then switch to melee as the enemies come into ranged, Linzi sings and Harrim does another Bane. I pick the Lawful Evil option to conditionally release Jhod and loot the camp. Amiri and Linzi level up. I take combat trick Point Blank shot for Linzi and pick hideous laughter for her spell, this will come in handy. Amiri's a 2nd level Barbarian, so now I switch her to a 2-handed fighter and take dodge and armor focus heavy to increase her survivability. Nearby is some wine that i pass the perception check to spot, and I break the bottles. I know I just failed a lore nature check that the game doesn't display that would have let me poison the wine. This'll make things tougher down the road. Jaethal hits level 3 from that check, and I take dodge and precise strike for her feats and remove fear for a spell.
Pushing west across the Ford, we bump into the Technic League slavers and I opt to fight them. Linzi starts singing, my main does a flanking manuevre to the left and charges the main mage, while Amiri and Harrim tank the frontline plus throw up a bane spell while Amiri fights defensively. As soon as Linzi's Bard Song goes up, I pause the game to get off a Hideous laughter on one of the technic league fighters, while Jaethal comes around the other side and uses that necklace's ability to cast color spray. My main gets blinded by one of the wizards, but using arcane accuracy, I'm able to hit the main mage with a shocking grasp and switch to attacking the other mage. I whittle down the two fighters and keep hitting them with hideos laughter and color spray to keep them down. My magus gets hit with fear and goes down after an unlucky attack of opportunity, but is still alive. The rest of the enemies are pretty beat up, so we make short work of them. Linzi got blinded at some point during the fight too, and I only have the one remove blindness potion, so my Magus chugs it. Jaethal and Amiri passed all the lore checks when leaving the area to find the Technic League encampment and Harrim finally gets to level 3, and I take extra channel.
We rest and head over to the technic league encampment. I approache the camp from the East and take out the 2 sentries. I split Amiri off a little to the South of the rest of the party before untying the prisoners. Linzi sings and tries a hideos laughter and we attack. Amiri charges the main mage while raging and makes short work of her before she can get off any summons, we finish off the rest of the goons and have made some new friends. I hire on Reg and Octavia, and bring Octavia right into the party. We loot the camp, with a chain shirt +1 for Demona and head back to Oleg's to unload the loot and see what we can buy. Just a reminder, I have XP sharing off, so Octavia's only level 2 when I get her, despite most of the party being level 3 now. As the trap monkey, she'll catch up fast, though.
Back at Oleg's I can just barely afford a scroll of remove blindness and a small bag of holding. Before we hit the road again, Oleg asks us to kill the tuskgutter and Jhod wants us to find the temple of elk.
We start heading out West with the first stop at Old Oak. This is the first Troll fight with a man eater troll. This is a tough fight for my level, so we buff up with shield bless and divine shield, Demona, Amiri and Harrim charge in with Octavia and Jaethal flanking to use color spray, Linzi singing and casting hideous laughter. Amiri takes a couple big hits, but is still up, one of color sprays gets through and Jaethal gets a 41 damage critical hit. Right when the troll gets out of the color spray a hideous laughter gets through and we finish him off with Octavia's acid splash killing him. The prize for this fight is a +2 strength belt for me and a +1 crossbow for Linzi.
Moving further West towards the abandoned hut, we spot another area, Oak-That Strayed. We rest before heading in. There's an insane Dryad waiting for us there. We use our usual buffs to start the fight. The goal here is to take her down as fast as possible before she drops her nasty spells, so we want to go full offensive here and charge in. My main goes for a shocking grasp after the initial charge and Amiri rages, Octavia launches a snow ball sneak attack. The dryad managed to get her spike stones spell off, so it's important to not move or I'll take more damage. The shocking grasp splats her and we just have to wait for the spke stones spell to end before walking around.
On to the abandoned hut. We pick up the herbs by the entrance, we'll want those later. See some visions, fight some wolves and find the druids notes by a caern. We put the herbs in a chest in the hut and get a +1 short sword and a book that'll be needed for a quest later.
We go on to the temple of elk. Kill the frogs at the entrance and move on to the wolves at the south. I use the gate as a bottleneck so only one can fight us at a time, Octavia manages to hit them all with a color spray, making the fight a lot easier. I came within an inch of dying from the boar in the northwest. The bear-like treant fight was a breeze, standard buffs, charged in, Harrim used boneshaker and it went down before I could even get a color spray off. Great, a pretty boy priest, sure you can help us... for now.
We continue south to the tusk gutter's lair. We put up the standard buffs and I ignore Amiri, and we all just attack it. I use my shocking grasp to deal big damage, but it decides to switch targets to me, and I come within 2HP of dying. Harrim finishes it with another bone shaker spell.
Next stop 3 pine islet to the southwest. We put up normal buffs and try to take down the Tatzlworms as quick as possible since they're poisonous. I open each battle with a charge and have Linzi singing. Fortunately nobody gets poisoned.
I head East, since I'm out of space to go that way. I spot the Glade in the Wilderness, and am very tempted to drop by, since I know there's a sweet weapon for Jaethal. But I don't like the idea of taking on that wolf pack at levels 2-3 in a no reload, so decide to play it safe and keep moving to Old Mesa. There's a greater werewolf there which means +1 or better weapons to hit. Amiri has a +1 long sword and I've got a +1 scimitar and Linzi has a +1 crossbow, so I give Harrim the +1 sickle I got off the insane dryad and Jaethal gets the +1 quarter staff I found at the temple of elk. I spam color spray and hideous laughter while everyone else charges in. I use shocking grasp repeatedly with arcane accuracy to make it hit. He rips up Amiri pretty good, but she can handle it. He was packing a +1 breast plate and it goes to Jaethal.
I keep going east to Riverine Rise. This area is pretty easy, just a water elemental so we brute forced it. On a dead body we found a bunch cure blindness scrolls. Wish we had those earlier.
I head north and pass by Ratnook Hill. This spot killed @BelgarathMTH and I know it well, so I pass by it and go to Old Sycamore.
We enter old Sycamore and talk to Kesten and he clears me of being a spy (duh). We kill some deer and then go east, killing some frogs. Linzi makes the mobility check to climb up the log to a secret spot with some loot.although both Linzi and Octavia fails to pick one of the chests. We go North and find a bandit camp, and for a change we've got the drop on them after quietly disabling all their traps. I surround the necromancer and murder him in his sleep and Octavia lets loose a color spray on 2 of the others, it's short work from there. Now their stuff is mine.
I go West and kill some tatzlworms and a pack of thylacines. We try to climb down a cliff and fail the athletics check and all take some damage, but at least we made it down. I kill some mites and take their cold iron dagger. Going north we kill more thylacines and Linzi finally hits level 3. I take Precise shot on her, so she'll be a lot more accurate with ranged weapons from now on.
We go north and kill more deer and loot a camp. I pass up resting there and keep going east and bump into wolves and a bunch of deer and a megaloceros, they're not much trouble and go down easy. We go north and kill some more wolves, then bump into a talking warg. He offers up a treasure if I bring him someone to eat, I'm evil so I take him up on the deal.
I climb up the roots of the tree to the level above, Linzi making the skill check for mobility. I go west and remove the trap, then get ambushed by centipedes, they're weak but poisonous, so it's important to kill them fast. I keep going killing thylacines and looting. Octavia levels up, and I make sure to take accomplished sneak attacker and the skills she needs to go arcane trickster.
I go South to the central plateau and bump into some Kobolds, I send them to the Warg for my reward and head back to him to get it after picking up a moon radish for Bokken. The warg tells me to look by a lonely tree and Demona hits Eldritch Scion level 4. I go for more strength. I finally get level 2 spells, so I pick mirror image (absolute must) and frigid touch since I'm a magus. I head over to the tree the warg told me about and Jaethal manages to dig it up with an athletics check. Here's where my meta-knowledge comes in handy, the chest has a really high level finger of death trap on it, so I have Jaethal open it, since she's already dead it won't affect her. Theres a phylactery of negative channeling and some scrolls, that'll fetch some cash back at Oleg's
Now I rest and head over to the eastern side of the plateau. There's a lonely shambling mound. I open with a stone call and follow up with Bane and ray of enfeeblement. He beats on Amiri pretty bad, but she chugs some potions and Harrim keeps her in the fight. I get lucky and Octavia staggers him with a snowball sneak attack and we proceed to beat on him and loot the area.
Next stop Pine Patch for an encounter with Tartuccio. We kill his kobold servants and lot the place.
Before we go back to tackle old sycamore, it's time to head back to Oleg's and dump the loot and get new gear. Along the way I take a detour east and clear out Two-Rivers Field. It's a pretty minor area, a few traps some wolves, minor loot. It's a minor spot, so I'm going to gloss over it.
I head back to Oleg's turn in the moon radish, tell Jhod I made it to the Temple of Elk and let Oleg know the tusk gutter's dead. After I dump all the loot I've found, I finally can afford some decent stuff and Oleg's apparently gotten a new shipment of goods with lots of new stuff to choose from. I finally can put Amiri in some full plate +1 and now flip her to a masterwork 2 handed sword and pick up a headband of alluring Charisma for myself. Jaethal and Amiri level up to level 4, I boost Jaethal's wisdom and Amiri's strength. Now we're ready to tackle Old Sycamore and hit the game's first real dungeon.
At old sycamore the mites and kobolds are fighting. Since the kobolds are being manipulated by Tartuccio, I side with the mites and kill the kobolds. I move through the map killing the kobolds and Harrim levels up to level 4, then rest before I head inside Old Sycamore.
Inside Old Sycamore, the mite gate keeper wants me to bring him some spider mandibles. I explore around, the queen tells me to kill the kobold chieftain and bring his branch back to open the door to where Tartuccio's hiding. AThe top level I can get to now just have some centipedes sparsely placed, but one of them nicks me and I get poisoned. At this point Harrim's got lesser restoration, so we can handle that. We pick up the loot from where we can get to at this point and head down to the old sycamore depths.
Following the passage we find a hidden area with mite hermit hiding in it, I keep bugging him and he goes hostile. I take some scrolls of lesser restoration off his corpse. We follow the tunnel northwest, and come to a wall with a couple panels and a switch on the wall. I put up my buffs, put 2 people on the panels and Linzi flips the switch. There's 3 tough skeleton warriors inside. One of them had a masterwork greataxe, which I give to Amiri and in a chest I find +1 half plate which Harrim puts on.
We follow the tunnel south and encounter a mob of skeletons with a few champions mixed in. This is where having Jaethal sucks, since if I use channeling to damage the skeletons she'll get hit too, and Harrim doesn't have selective channelling.
At this point, we're getting a little low on spells, so to play on the safe side, I pop back out that exit I passed nearby and rest
The path leads us north through more spiders. The path turns north and I pick up one of the bridge levers and climb down a ledge going west and north. We go through some trippy vegetation and find another hidden area with a headband of wisdo +2 that harrim equips, then keep following the tunnel. In the northeast we find the big dead spider and harvest it's mandibles.
following the tunnel in the norther portion of the caves we find some frogs with some loot.
I head back South to the central chamber and know there's a big fight coming. The game even gives warning signs that something large moved through here recently. I throw up all my buffs before attacking the centipedes in the central chamber. I charge in killing the first few centipedes, but more rush in, so I start splitting up the party. Amiri goes north to kill the one up there, I go south with Harrim and Jaethal goes southeast to cover that side. Once the little centipedes are down, I move Jaethal up to the big centipede first, so it'll shoot poison at her, then close with everyone else. I throw everything I can, shocking grasp, snowball sneak attack and boneshaker. It goes down and I loot it's lair. After looting the side passages I head back outside to rest.
We head back into the depths and take route up to the first level at the far east of the depths. There's a few kobolds guarding the door to the chieftain, so we cut through them. Before opening the door to where the kobold chieftain's at, we put up all our buffs and a remove fear. Demona goes straight for the alchemist while the rest of the party fights it out with kobold sentinels. Harrim drops a bane when in range of the chieftain, and we slaughter all the kobolds. Oh look, it's that knight who thought she was too good for me. Fine, lady go back to Oleg's while I loot the place.
I head south from the chieftain's lair and the tunnel starts to go west, with a big chamber full of kobolds at the end of it. Linzi finally hits level 4 and I take heroism and glitterdust. The kobolds in the main chamber are pretty easy, i just make sure to target the mages first.
After looting the big chamber we turn south and find a broken bridge and octavia repairs, we move east disabling traps as we go and kill more kobolds at the end of the tunnel then back track and follow the tunnel west through some spiders and dodge some traps. I loot the rest of the area and head back down stairs and back outside to rest before the big fight.
I head back to the main entrance of old sycamore and enter there. Let's finish some quests first. I give the gate keeper the mandibles and he gives me the other lever to fix the bridge, so I head down there now to get my xp for repairing it. Then I head back to the mite queen to turn in the quest for killing the kobold chieftain. All that remains is the big showdown with Tartuccio.
Before going in, I cast all the buffs I have, shield and mirror image on my magus, Linzi casts heroism on me too, bless, divine shield, Octavia puts up mage armor and cat's grace. Jaethal even uses divine favor. We head in and have some banter with Tartuccio before the fight starts. My magus rushes him, so the fireball misses her, and kills most of his henchmen, but does massive damage to the party, so harrim uses his channeling, even though it'll heal anyone in range. My magus keeps pounding Tartuccio while the rest of the party mops up the other kobolds. Tartuccio goes down with a critical hit from a shocking grasp for a total of 45 damage, and is gibbed. We make short work of the rest of the kobolds and loot the place. There's a +1 heavy shield for Harrim and another +1 ring of deflection.
I uphold my deal with the mites and give the queen the branch. A cut scene plays while an apparition revives Tartuccio and we head back to Oleg's to dump the loot. Next stop, the Stag Lord's fort.