I dont think this argument is making sense. The only reasonable thing to compare the change the protagonist undergoes in PoE (Becoming the Watcher) is the taint in BG 1.
I don't think it's inconsistent at all. BG1 tells you that something in the plot has had a negative effect on your protagonist. Sarevok framed you. You feel this negative consequence as part of the gameplay.
PoE1 tells you that you're going insane from the Watcher effects. You get some superficial stuff, but it never effects gameplay.
The idea that I have to compare a game telling you (instead of showing you) negative consequences in a certain way is a rule you've made up. It's not at all what my initial argument was:
"While I did actually like Pillars, I have to say that this take misses something. It's a show versus tell problem of writing. Pillars tells you that you're going crazy. But you're never actually going crazy in the game, no matter how long you take to complete it.
In fact, it's all quite the opposite. From a gameplay standpoint, you just get more powerful from the thing that you supposedly need to cure. You never once lose touch with reality or are misled by this alleged mounting insanity. I'm not quite sure how you could have integrated a truly "going crazy" consequence into the gameplay that would be fun. But it's clear that there's a huge dissonance in the plot of Pillars between what actually happens to the player and their character and what the plot tells you is happening."
I even later noted that this part of BG1 was only minor, not a grand scale consequence in your playthrough. But it is undeniably more than what PoE1 did.
Uh, you start to see dead people and talk to things only you can see, as all the people keep reminding you. Seems the definition of "going bananas" to me. And they keep telling you it gets worse.
In PoE and in BG1 both, the supposed "taint" all it does is making you more powerful in the end. Gives you some interesting roleplaying choices tho.
In BG3 gameplay when you use the "tadpole force persuade" a voice reminds you that that power will have consequences later. We´ll have to see if those are real consequences like in MOTB or just a warning to advance the plot. I´m curious about it.
I dont think this argument is making sense. The only reasonable thing to compare the change the protagonist undergoes in PoE (Becoming the Watcher) is the taint in BG 1.
I don't think it's inconsistent at all. BG1 tells you that something in the plot has had a negative effect on your protagonist. Sarevok framed you. You feel this negative consequence as part of the gameplay.
PoE1 tells you that you're going insane from the Watcher effects. You get some superficial stuff, but it never effects gameplay.
The idea that I have to compare a game telling you (instead of showing you) negative consequences in a certain way is a rule you've made up. It's not at all what my initial argument was:
"While I did actually like Pillars, I have to say that this take misses something. It's a show versus tell problem of writing. Pillars tells you that you're going crazy. But you're never actually going crazy in the game, no matter how long you take to complete it.
In fact, it's all quite the opposite. From a gameplay standpoint, you just get more powerful from the thing that you supposedly need to cure. You never once lose touch with reality or are misled by this alleged mounting insanity. I'm not quite sure how you could have integrated a truly "going crazy" consequence into the gameplay that would be fun. But it's clear that there's a huge dissonance in the plot of Pillars between what actually happens to the player and their character and what the plot tells you is happening."
I even later noted that this part of BG1 was only minor, not a grand scale consequence in your playthrough. But it is undeniably more than what PoE1 did.
To be frank, I'm not all that interested in arguing about this with you any more. I think we are just at an impasse. You want to only compare the Watcher aspect itself against against both the taint and any machination Sarevok has as if they are necessarily the same (Which I reject the premise that they are). Let's just leave it alone.
@PsicoVic I honestly dont remember MOTB(Think I only played it once, at release?), what were the consequences there?
IIRC if you do not feed regularly to regain spirit energy you slowly wither, the hunger for spirits consumes you until you disappear, If you feed too much you become addicted and you have to consume more and more spirits until it´s not enough and the hunger for spirits consumes you... If you use too much some spirit feats... well, you know the drill.
ed: Your RP choices also affect what spirit powers you learn, what companions come with you and that could determine how to deal with some quests in the road.
EJ) In a particular place you can learn "Eternal rest" if you do something. That allows you to feed on undead to give them...yes, eternal rest. That could be used to help some lost spirits on the road like the Chief Scribe and also fulfills the requirements to show your abilities to the Red wizard instructor in the academy, etc
You can also learn how to use your hunger to heal your allies or devour intelligent humanoids, and those are actions that could change your alignment for good.
@BallpointMan The spirit eater curse was essentially a timer to game over. Normally that'd be an instant "nope, pass" from me. But, the player could influence it and give themselves almost unlimited time with a bit of care. Essentially it boiled down to, "Be evil, get more powerful, curse kills you faster", "Good, not a strong, but curse is more under control and kills you much slower.)
If you're curious, there's a pretty good written playthrough over on the Let's Play Archive.
The interesting part is that the spirit eater feature give you lots of rp options in the expansion, something I would like to see with the ceremorphosis in BG3.
Would be odd if it did anything good. Since early stages of ceremorphosis is pretty much the same thing as helminthiasis. Only RP options I could think of are various debuffs like anemia, weakness against diseases and an continuous Intelligence drain as the parasite actively gobbles down your brain. Maybe mixed with hallucinations and mental breakdowns. Given your whole body breaks apart and forcefully gets reconstructed into an aberration. Not exactly a situation where you can keep sanity points.
Odd indeed. And not exactly logical either. I could understand if the parasite tries to keep its host from dying with the occasional psychic force field. But things like that really should be outside of the players own control.
Well, you can also be a vampire and walk in daylight and kill intellect devourers with your boot, so maybe in the game, you were bitten by a radioactive tadpole, and with great power comes "great responsivity" to adjust.
Yeah, I'm repeating my assumptions/predictions from before about how I think it will play out in a Dragon Age Darkspawn/Grey Warden fashion: At first the plot driving objective will be finding a cure (which we know) but what will actually happen is some kind of treatment/ritual that will turn it into a more symbiotic relationship where you aren't, you know, dying from it (at least not immediately). Then there will likely be a mechanic/narrative where you can either resist the tadpole and stay who you are (likely developing defensive powers) or use the tadpole and have it's influence over you grow (likely developing offensive powers).
Alternative/additive plot guessing:
1, It just slows the tadpole down, and finding a real cure is still a goal for the rest of the story.
2, They are special tadpoles to begin with because your mindfather has special plans in store for this batch of offspring (hopefully involving mindflayer internal politics? Maybe I'm being too optimistic)
This seems like the basics for how to make the tadpole not be a game ender but still matter in the story.
From what I remember from ceremorphosis in previous editions, it used to be it only took a tadpole hours to completely devour a brain and take full control of the still intact body, after which only a wish spell or divine intervention could bring the original person back. Transforming the body took another week.
So these are indeed either new edition tadpoles, special tadpoles, or artistic license. Not judging yet either way.
Well, you can also be a vampire and walk in daylight and kill intellect devourers with your boot, so maybe in the game, you were bitten by a radioactive tadpole, and with great power comes "great responsivity" to adjust.
We`ll see.
Now that you mention it, I vaguely remember that pale elf boy being surprised he was out in sunlight? So daywalking might be one of the special tadpole powers. Oh, that and the aforementioned being undead but still affected by tadpole..
Yeah, I'm repeating my assumptions/predictions from before about how I think it will play out in a Dragon Age Darkspawn/Grey Warden fashion
Ugh, I hope not, Dragon Age had one of the lamest plots to a fantasy CRPG I ever played. Just because there was nothing interesting to me about the Blight concept at all.
Something I had wanted to say and keep forgetting when we were talking about the BG vs POE debate was at least, for me, and my preferences, there is no real contest between PoE and BG in terms of my feelings on them. Baldur's Gate, as a series, is the kind of story I absolutely love and find fascinating, and PoE? Well, it was well done and interesting (in the first game at least) but not something I find genuinely fascinating personally, which is why to me a simple substitution in time would not somehow make PoE just as good, it simply would not for me, because Baldur's Gate as mentioned is a lot about nature vs nurture and the dichotomy of good vs evil. When playing a good character in those games you have to deal with the concept that people think your birthright is a source of evil. This is probably why I like BG2 so much as well (I like the first for what it is but its there to set the stage more than anything) because those elements come into focus during that part of the saga.
Could all that stuff have been done in a better, more interesting manner? Yes, definitely, but did I really enjoy the fact that was the focus of the story and it still had some great aspects to it (particularly anytime Irenicus was on screen).
So, we can't have RTwP because its not "close enough to the source material" but ceremorphosis can just be handwaved to whatever the devs want for their story? That's some selective "respect"f or the source material. I suspect that Larian doesn't actually care about BG or D&D like they keep claiming, and just want to make their own story and ignoring everything lore and mechanics-wise that would take effort to include.
I know we have like, four or five posts without talking about rtwp vs TB? ( in a thread about a game we know it´s going to be TB for weeks now and it´s not going to change) and people get angsty without talking about the same pointless debate on a daily basis but I think it´s a bit of a stretch to compare a game mechanic of a videogame with a ... let´s call it probable poetic license with some lore of D&D to make the story interesting.
I mean, if they stick to the by-the-book ceremorphosis I read it´s incurable after the first hours so that would be the shortest D&D game ever. But according to Volo´s GTM in 5e I think you still have one week until the transformation is complete.
CEREMORPHOSIS
Mind fl.ayers don't reproduce in the traditional sense.
Instead, they lay eggs from which hatch tadpole-like
creatures that are used to make more of their kind
through a process called ceremorphosis. First, a cap-
tured humanoid is rendered docile by a blast of psionic
power. A newly hatched tadpole is inserted into the
victim's cranium, usually through a nostril or ear canal.
The tadpole grows as it devours the humanoid's brain,
attaching to the victim's brain stem and becoming its
new brain. Over the course of a week, the humanoid
body changes form, and a new mind flayer comes into
being. The emergent mind fl.ayer often retains a few dim
memories from its previous form, but these vague rec-
ollections seldom have any bearing on its new life as a
brain-eating monster.
We're talking about WotC here: they throw lore out of the window with each and every edition, supply book, or adventure they publish. The whole world building has become a mess ever since the IP was bought from TSR. No surprise there.
So, we can't have RTwP because its not "close enough to the source material" but ceremorphosis can just be handwaved to whatever the devs want for their story? That's some selective "respect"f or the source material. I suspect that Larian doesn't actually care about BG or D&D like they keep claiming, and just want to make their own story and ignoring everything lore and mechanics-wise that would take effort to include.
larian never liked rtwp combat. if they say other wise they are not being truthful. this isnt trying to stay true to dnd this is a bias.
So, we can't have RTwP because its not "close enough to the source material" but ceremorphosis can just be handwaved to whatever the devs want for their story? That's some selective "respect"f or the source material. I suspect that Larian doesn't actually care about BG or D&D like they keep claiming, and just want to make their own story and ignoring everything lore and mechanics-wise that would take effort to include.
Wrong. RTwP is a decision made due a lot of factors and even if 99% of the community wanna RTwP, the game is too late on development to change. And mindflayers experiences a lot on the player. Not all tadpoles results in mindflayers.
@SorcererV1ct0r "Wrong. RTwP is a decision made due a lot of factors and even if 99% of the community wanna RTwP, the game is too late on development to change."
Wrong, Sven literally made the decision while on a flight. There is one reason that Larian chose TB, and that's because they like it. No other reason.
@SorcererV1ct0r "Wrong. RTwP is a decision made due a lot of factors and even if 99% of the community wanna RTwP, the game is too late on development to change."
Wrong, Sven literally made the decision while on a flight. There is one reason that Larian chose TB, and that's because they like it. No other reason.
Yes, Larian's own devs have said so in multiple interviews, that the combat system was the first decision they made and that there was no discussion or debate about it because they like TB and dislike RTwP. One dev literally said it took them 30 seconds to decide.
@SorcererV1ct0r "Wrong. RTwP is a decision made due a lot of factors and even if 99% of the community wanna RTwP, the game is too late on development to change."
Wrong, Sven literally made the decision while on a flight. There is one reason that Larian chose TB, and that's because they like it. No other reason.
Yes, Larian's own devs have said so in multiple interviews, that the combat system was the first decision they made and that there was no discussion or debate about it because they like TB and dislike RTwP. One dev literally said it took them 30 seconds to decide.
Good, the worst thing they could do is to debate weeks what game exactly they want to do. Since they are focused on one choice from the start, they will shape the game around this decision without any further distraction. I would have written the same if they had chosen RTWP.
@SorcererV1ct0r "Wrong. RTwP is a decision made due a lot of factors and even if 99% of the community wanna RTwP, the game is too late on development to change."
Wrong, Sven literally made the decision while on a flight. There is one reason that Larian chose TB, and that's because they like it. No other reason.
Yes, Larian's own devs have said so in multiple interviews, that the combat system was the first decision they made and that there was no discussion or debate about it because they like TB and dislike RTwP. One dev literally said it took them 30 seconds to decide.
Good, the worst thing they could do is to debate weeks what game exactly they want to do. Since they are focused on one choice from the start, they will shape the game around this decision without any further distraction. I would have written the same if they had chosen RTWP.
Yes, and that's totally fine. The point here, though, is that there were no multiple reasons for their choice. It was simply a choice based on one (subjective) reason: we believe TB is superior to RTwP.
@SorcererV1ct0r "Wrong. RTwP is a decision made due a lot of factors and even if 99% of the community wanna RTwP, the game is too late on development to change."
Wrong, Sven literally made the decision while on a flight. There is one reason that Larian chose TB, and that's because they like it. No other reason.
Yes, Larian's own devs have said so in multiple interviews, that the combat system was the first decision they made and that there was no discussion or debate about it because they like TB and dislike RTwP. One dev literally said it took them 30 seconds to decide.
Good, the worst thing they could do is to debate weeks what game exactly they want to do. Since they are focused on one choice from the start, they will shape the game around this decision without any further distraction. I would have written the same if they had chosen RTWP.
Yes, and that's totally fine. The point here, though, is that there were no multiple reasons for their choice. It was simply a choice based on one (subjective) reason: we believe TB is superior to RTwP.
True, but I'd rather they use game mechanics they feel confident doing, than try to do a good RTWP they don't really want to do. It's not easy to do a good RTWP. I was realized this while playing P:K or PoE1. It was somewhat better experience in PoE2, but in fact only BG series had really fun RTWP combat. I think it's easier to do good TB mechanics, but developers can easily fall into a trap of doing lengthy, repetitive battles (which Larian kinda did in DoS2). I mean, you can use many fancy tactics, but in reality you use just a couple of them, that works well for you.
@SorcererV1ct0r "Wrong. RTwP is a decision made due a lot of factors and even if 99% of the community wanna RTwP, the game is too late on development to change."
Wrong, Sven literally made the decision while on a flight. There is one reason that Larian chose TB, and that's because they like it. No other reason.
Yes, Larian's own devs have said so in multiple interviews, that the combat system was the first decision they made and that there was no discussion or debate about it because they like TB and dislike RTwP. One dev literally said it took them 30 seconds to decide.
Good, the worst thing they could do is to debate weeks what game exactly they want to do. Since they are focused on one choice from the start, they will shape the game around this decision without any further distraction. I would have written the same if they had chosen RTWP.
Yes, and that's totally fine. The point here, though, is that there were no multiple reasons for their choice. It was simply a choice based on one (subjective) reason: we believe TB is superior to RTwP.
While it was Larian's choice to go for TB, should any blame go around, it was maybe also a little naieve of Wizards to believe it would be anything other than TB. Business-wise it still makes sense of course.
@Cahir "True, but I'd rather they use game mechanics they feel confident doing, than try to do a good RTWP they don't really want to do."
I'd rather the game mechanics of a sequel be an evolution of the previous entries'. If Larian is unable or unwilling to do so, they are the wrong choice.
Comments
I don't think it's inconsistent at all. BG1 tells you that something in the plot has had a negative effect on your protagonist. Sarevok framed you. You feel this negative consequence as part of the gameplay.
PoE1 tells you that you're going insane from the Watcher effects. You get some superficial stuff, but it never effects gameplay.
The idea that I have to compare a game telling you (instead of showing you) negative consequences in a certain way is a rule you've made up. It's not at all what my initial argument was:
"While I did actually like Pillars, I have to say that this take misses something. It's a show versus tell problem of writing. Pillars tells you that you're going crazy. But you're never actually going crazy in the game, no matter how long you take to complete it.
In fact, it's all quite the opposite. From a gameplay standpoint, you just get more powerful from the thing that you supposedly need to cure. You never once lose touch with reality or are misled by this alleged mounting insanity. I'm not quite sure how you could have integrated a truly "going crazy" consequence into the gameplay that would be fun. But it's clear that there's a huge dissonance in the plot of Pillars between what actually happens to the player and their character and what the plot tells you is happening."
I even later noted that this part of BG1 was only minor, not a grand scale consequence in your playthrough. But it is undeniably more than what PoE1 did.
In PoE and in BG1 both, the supposed "taint" all it does is making you more powerful in the end. Gives you some interesting roleplaying choices tho.
In BG3 gameplay when you use the "tadpole force persuade" a voice reminds you that that power will have consequences later. We´ll have to see if those are real consequences like in MOTB or just a warning to advance the plot. I´m curious about it.
To be frank, I'm not all that interested in arguing about this with you any more. I think we are just at an impasse. You want to only compare the Watcher aspect itself against against both the taint and any machination Sarevok has as if they are necessarily the same (Which I reject the premise that they are). Let's just leave it alone.
@PsicoVic I honestly dont remember MOTB(Think I only played it once, at release?), what were the consequences there?
ed: Your RP choices also affect what spirit powers you learn, what companions come with you and that could determine how to deal with some quests in the road.
You can also learn how to use your hunger to heal your allies or devour intelligent humanoids, and those are actions that could change your alignment for good.
Moved. I appreciate the sentiment.
If you're curious, there's a pretty good written playthrough over on the Let's Play Archive.
We`ll see.
Alternative/additive plot guessing:
1, It just slows the tadpole down, and finding a real cure is still a goal for the rest of the story.
2, They are special tadpoles to begin with because your mindfather has special plans in store for this batch of offspring (hopefully involving mindflayer internal politics? Maybe I'm being too optimistic)
This seems like the basics for how to make the tadpole not be a game ender but still matter in the story.
So these are indeed either new edition tadpoles, special tadpoles, or artistic license. Not judging yet either way.
Now that you mention it, I vaguely remember that pale elf boy being surprised he was out in sunlight? So daywalking might be one of the special tadpole powers. Oh, that and the aforementioned being undead but still affected by tadpole..
Ugh, I hope not, Dragon Age had one of the lamest plots to a fantasy CRPG I ever played. Just because there was nothing interesting to me about the Blight concept at all.
Something I had wanted to say and keep forgetting when we were talking about the BG vs POE debate was at least, for me, and my preferences, there is no real contest between PoE and BG in terms of my feelings on them. Baldur's Gate, as a series, is the kind of story I absolutely love and find fascinating, and PoE? Well, it was well done and interesting (in the first game at least) but not something I find genuinely fascinating personally, which is why to me a simple substitution in time would not somehow make PoE just as good, it simply would not for me, because Baldur's Gate as mentioned is a lot about nature vs nurture and the dichotomy of good vs evil. When playing a good character in those games you have to deal with the concept that people think your birthright is a source of evil. This is probably why I like BG2 so much as well (I like the first for what it is but its there to set the stage more than anything) because those elements come into focus during that part of the saga.
Could all that stuff have been done in a better, more interesting manner? Yes, definitely, but did I really enjoy the fact that was the focus of the story and it still had some great aspects to it (particularly anytime Irenicus was on screen).
I mean, if they stick to the by-the-book ceremorphosis I read it´s incurable after the first hours so that would be the shortest D&D game ever. But according to Volo´s GTM in 5e I think you still have one week until the transformation is complete.
Mind fl.ayers don't reproduce in the traditional sense.
Instead, they lay eggs from which hatch tadpole-like
creatures that are used to make more of their kind
through a process called ceremorphosis. First, a cap-
tured humanoid is rendered docile by a blast of psionic
power. A newly hatched tadpole is inserted into the
victim's cranium, usually through a nostril or ear canal.
The tadpole grows as it devours the humanoid's brain,
attaching to the victim's brain stem and becoming its
new brain. Over the course of a week, the humanoid
body changes form, and a new mind flayer comes into
being. The emergent mind fl.ayer often retains a few dim
memories from its previous form, but these vague rec-
ollections seldom have any bearing on its new life as a
brain-eating monster.
larian never liked rtwp combat. if they say other wise they are not being truthful. this isnt trying to stay true to dnd this is a bias.
Wrong. RTwP is a decision made due a lot of factors and even if 99% of the community wanna RTwP, the game is too late on development to change. And mindflayers experiences a lot on the player. Not all tadpoles results in mindflayers.
Here is a video of then experimenting
Wrong, Sven literally made the decision while on a flight. There is one reason that Larian chose TB, and that's because they like it. No other reason.
Good, the worst thing they could do is to debate weeks what game exactly they want to do. Since they are focused on one choice from the start, they will shape the game around this decision without any further distraction. I would have written the same if they had chosen RTWP.
Yes, and that's totally fine. The point here, though, is that there were no multiple reasons for their choice. It was simply a choice based on one (subjective) reason: we believe TB is superior to RTwP.
True, but I'd rather they use game mechanics they feel confident doing, than try to do a good RTWP they don't really want to do. It's not easy to do a good RTWP. I was realized this while playing P:K or PoE1. It was somewhat better experience in PoE2, but in fact only BG series had really fun RTWP combat. I think it's easier to do good TB mechanics, but developers can easily fall into a trap of doing lengthy, repetitive battles (which Larian kinda did in DoS2). I mean, you can use many fancy tactics, but in reality you use just a couple of them, that works well for you.
While it was Larian's choice to go for TB, should any blame go around, it was maybe also a little naieve of Wizards to believe it would be anything other than TB. Business-wise it still makes sense of course.
I'd rather the game mechanics of a sequel be an evolution of the previous entries'. If Larian is unable or unwilling to do so, they are the wrong choice.