To be fair, when they change edition they have to justify the changes in game mechanics, so the gods of magic and death are the usual suspects.
I mean, nothing short of a divine intervention could explain that you wake up one day and suddenly your paladin doesn´t know how to feint, disarm and charge, your druid lost his animal companion for good and for some reason your wizard forgot that he/she can use metamagic.
Just imagine a Faerun RPG that doesn't play in or around the Sword Coast for once! Such a nice dream that would be... *sigh*
This is my biggest beef with WotC and D&D videogames too. And not just the Sword Coast but also the Neverwinter area and Icewind Dale. They just keep going back to these three areas again and again when there are literally DOZENS of other amazingly varied and interesting and fascinating areas in Faerun.
It´s like:
Wiz-"Man, this blade ward and true strike spells do not last more than a breath, I do not even know why I bother to learn them"
Rogue-"Just extend them"
Wiz-"Excuse me? Magic spells are not chewing gum"
Rogue-"Extend spell... as in metamagic extend spell... you did it yesterday! You had like four or five thingies to make stuff with spells!"
Wiz-"I think you have mistaken me for Ballsfire, the sorcerer"
Rogue-"Ok Bandaid the paladin, I think ElMaster´s head got hit too much. Just show him how yo do that, use the extended bless spell, like yesterday"
Pally-"Dunno what you´re talking about. Extenwhat?"
Rogue-"Are you trolling me or what?. Ok, stop joking around, the enemy´s here. Bandaid! go and charge those enemies up there!"
Pally-"Come again? They´re too far"
Wiz-"He is a holy warrior, he does not charge anyone for fighting evil, you should know that. Unless he is an oathbreaker. They´re nincompoops"
Rogue-"Holy Cow! you have to charge... run and hit the enemy... as you always did before... You know what, life´s too precious for this nonsense. I´ll leave"
Pally-"You coward, even if hurts me, the codes of my god demands that I have to kill you for leaving the battle!"
Rogue-"No, you have not, because you do not have to follow the orders of a benevolent god anymore, pally"
Pally-"What do you mean? Of course I have to! I can´t even smite good creatures and...wait... No! I actually can"
Rogue-"Told ya"
Pally-"Cool, I always wanted some payback to those bartenders, always asking to kill the rats for them... just grab a bloody cat! It´s time for some evil smiting!".
Sounds like a relative of Shadowheart. And it appears some of his body parts were for one reason or another cauterized. Hmm, maybe he'd even find enlightement as a multiclassed sorcerer monk? That would be one way of dealing with his two “losses“.
Well, Sorc Ballsfire is a wild sorcerer, so I think that explains all. Didn´t ask about the family, tho. but seems plausible.
Sorc: Ha! I know I only know 3 spells, but look at what I can do with them! Now I use twinning and the acid arrow targets two enemies! and now I make the arrow bigger, faster, stronger with my empowering! And now my mage armour is extended for half a day! and now I will make the arrows look like tiny unicorns! and the armour like angel wings behind me! and... Oh, damn! wild surge!
-Explosion-
Pally: Why did we hire a wild sorcerer, again?
Rogue: You killed the wizard trying your smiting against someone good in the previous post... Great smiting, btw.
Pally: Oh, that... Yeah, at least that would give some intensity to my Villain origin story, Don't you think?
Rogue: If you say so...
Just imagine a Faerun RPG that doesn't play in or around the Sword Coast for once! Such a nice dream that would be... *sigh*
This is my biggest beef with WotC and D&D videogames too. And not just the Sword Coast but also the Neverwinter area and Icewind Dale. They just keep going back to these three areas again and again when there are literally DOZENS of other amazingly varied and interesting and fascinating areas in Faerun.
I have a lot of beefs with WotC. Number one being, they don't understand DnD, or why people like it, they would rather it be something else, and they constantly fall back on what was popular without understanding why it was popular or trying to recreate it.
Just imagine a Faerun RPG that doesn't play in or around the Sword Coast for once! Such a nice dream that would be... *sigh*
This is my biggest beef with WotC and D&D videogames too. And not just the Sword Coast but also the Neverwinter area and Icewind Dale. They just keep going back to these three areas again and again when there are literally DOZENS of other amazingly varied and interesting and fascinating areas in Faerun.
I have a lot of beefs with WotC. Number one being, they don't understand DnD, or why people like it, they would rather it be something else, and they constantly fall back on what was popular without understanding why it was popular or trying to recreate it.
I get this complaint, and I agree, but I don't think this setting issue is peculiar to WotC. Video games and modules have heavily relied on the European-esque areas for a long, long time. I'm not sure I can blame them, this is what sells.
We see this even outside of D&D. The Tolkein-esque, stereotypical, castles, and medieval Europe style stuff tends to attract larger audiences, from Dark Souls to the Witcher.
If we are talking about RPG videogames, the best-selling worldwide franchises are JRPGs(with some honourable exceptions like Diablo and TES games), by a long margin. So I´m not sure that it´s accurate.
If we are talking about RPG videogames, the best-selling worldwide franchises are JRPGs(with some honourable exceptions like Diablo and TES games), by a long margin. So I´m not sure that it´s accurate.
A lot of those, while Japanese made perhaps, do have a western aesthetic (sp?). And Pokémon? Really?
The point @DinoDin and others are making is that when it comes to a fantasy setting, the majority of cRPGs are at best limited to their medieval europe area, and at worst the whole setting is limited to it. Instead of, say, ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, African cultures, Meso-american or Native American cultures, ancient japanese culture, etc.
I can hardly classify Monster hunter(63 million woldwide), Lineage(43 million), the first ten Final Fantasy games, Shin Megami Tensei(23.5 million), Persona, "tales of"(20 million) or Secret of mana(7.89 million) games as a medieval Europe game or even the Japanese 13rd century japan "Ghosts of Tsushima" ( https://hypebeast.com/2020/7/ghost-of-tsushima-is-the-fastest-selling-new-title-ever-on- PS4 record 2.4 million in 3 days) but yeah, I get your point.
If we are talking about RPG videogames, the best-selling worldwide franchises are JRPGs(with some honourable exceptions like Diablo and TES games), by a long margin. So I´m not sure that it´s accurate.
So I think that list kind of sidesteps some of the assumed context. Clearly a lot of those games do/did very well with markets that are outside of the scope of what a typical BG-style D&D CRPG would be, right?
There's obviously some overlap, as with all games, but I don't think it's fair to use sales figures from games that rely heavily on younger players and Asian markets. Even with those caveats thrown in, I still think some of those games even reveal how widespread the appeal of typical high-fantasy is. Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest have evolved into something different today, but both those series started with some pretty strong medieval European fantasy elements -- the original NES Final Fantasy, for much of its runtime is almost indistinguishable from D&D in its classes, weapons, monsters and NPCs.
Just saying, if we're going to ask why these developers so frequently make these games with similar settings and motifs, we need to be precise about who the market is and isn't.
@PsicoVic no worries. I was also only thinking of the influences of fantasy settings, so while Ghost of Tsushima for instance looks absolutely amazing (and I'd almost buy a PS4 for it) it's literally set in Japan, instead of its fantasy world being influenced by it.
If we are talking about RPG videogames, the best-selling worldwide franchises are JRPGs(with some honourable exceptions like Diablo and TES games), by a long margin. So I´m not sure that it´s accurate.
Except that Final Fantasy, there are 666*10²³ FF games, The Elder Scrolls in other hands, has 5 games. Contrary to Square Enix which releases his FF 1/2/3/4(...)666 every single year, BUGthesda only releases skyrim over and over. Is not uncommon for a FF fan to have FF1 on SNES, NINTENDO, gameboy, android, and other dozens of platforms. Meanwhile, you can only play TES 1/2/3 in PC's. I know that morrowind has a original port to original xbox but is a poor quality port.
And I don't know how accurate that list is. Diablo 1 sold over 5 million of copies only on 90s, not counting modern sales on GoG. He doesn't appear in that list.
DinoDin is unfortunately right. Tolkein-esque games sells way more. Which doesn't means that games like Nioh 2 are not doing well. My point is that there are so many interesting places on D&D universe. The focus on low level kobold slaying on sword coast is just too boring for me.
(...)Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest have evolved into something different today, but both those series started with some pretty strong medieval European fantasy elements -- the original NES Final Fantasy, for much of its runtime is almost indistinguishable from D&D in its classes, weapons, monsters and NPCs.
Just saying, if we're going to ask why these developers so frequently make these games with similar settings and motifs, we need to be precise about who the market is and isn't.
FF1 was decent. Not good as Dark Sun or other SSI games but was decent. IDK if we can call it "evolve", it is in fact a devolution IMO.
Full party creation, if you wanna have 4 thieves you can.
Classes for the typical fantasy archetypes(Black Mage, Thieves, Warriors, White Mages, etc)
Promotion quests
Random/Dice based stat and hp progression
Spell slots and "tier based" magical progression where a tier 1 fire spell can deal 40 damage. A Tier 5, 500 damage in ALL enemies.
OHK spells like Bane.
(...)
And now? They force you to play as the most generic androgynous looking teenager with a oversized sword... An complete nonsensical weapon. What is the main advantage of swords? Swords aren't good on dealing with armor or large animals. Are expensive, require maintenance but are excelents backup weapons due PORTABILITY. If you make a oversized sword even if somehow your girly protagonist is strong enough to use it, you lose all sword advantages and gain no advantage over a proper battlefield weapon like a halberd/spear/warhammer.
That said, D&D nowadays is more known by the low level adventures on europeanesque regions. We will not see shadowfell, elemental planes, abyss, far realm, mount celeste, thay(...) in a modern video game. Sorry.
Yeah, there hasn't been a good mainline final fantasy game in years, and there are only a few that stand out as quality RPGs in terms of mechanics in my opinion. Titles like FF V, III, Tactics, and to a lesser extent Brave Exvius were good because they allowed for full party customization and a variety of different builds and approaches to the game. Tactics has near endless depth, and can be brutally difficult to the uninitiated. The Gafgarion and Velius duels are some brick walls to many new players. V isn't too far behind in terms of customization.
Although the picture you posted is from Dissidia NT, a free to play fighting game. It's not too bad if you can stomach the animu protagonists. The villains are cooler to play as anyway. Dissidia 2 in particular is one of the deepest fighting games i've ever played.
Yeah, there hasn't been a good mainline final fantasy game in years, and there are only a few that stand out as quality RPGs in terms of mechanics in my opinion. Titles like FF V, III, Tactics, and to a lesser extent Brave Exvius were good because they allowed for full party customization and a variety of different builds and approaches to the game. Tactics has near endless depth, and can be brutally difficult to the uninitiated. The Gafgarion and Velius duels are some brick walls to many new players. V isn't too far behind in terms of customization.
Although the picture you posted is from Dissidia NT, a free to play fighting game. It's not too bad if you can stomach the animu protagonists. The villains are cooler to play as anyway. Dissidia 2 in particular is one of the deepest fighting games i've ever played.
Anime protagonists aren't a problem. The problem is Generi-kun protagonists.
I think we were talking about sales figures, so I´m not going to discuss personal tastes. What I meant to say is that you do not really have to make a game with a "europe medieval" setting to have good sales (see examples in the previous posts). Games with an oriental setting, for example, have a huge market.
There´s a huge world outside game developers of the US and Canada. You´ll miss a lot of good games if you cannot look past that. Friendly advice.
I think we were talking about sales figures, so I´m not going to discuss personal tastes. What I meant to say is that you do not really have to make a game with a "europe medieval" setting to have good sales (see examples in the previous posts). Games with an oriental setting, for example, have a huge market.
There´s a huge world outside game developers of the US and Canada. You´ll miss a lot of good games if you cannot look past that. Friendly advice.
Again, I grasp your point, but I think you're excluding some important context with your advice.
Making a game that relies on sales from an unfamiliar market is a huge risk. I've said this before, but it really bears repeating on here. These kinds of games require an enormous commitment of money from Larian on the front end. They're making a huge bet. And this is in order to match expectation of what features these games have -- voice acting, high quality graphics, 100+ hours of content, multiple quest outcomes, etc.
I think it's super easy to say, hey take a risk with an unusual setting and maybe you'll be a splash in this market your company has never tapped before. But that is a big risk. Even if a company made a game drenched in historically Asian themes, there's no guarantee the game would appeal to that market based on that alone. You'll be competing with a bunch of firmly established franchises for gamers in that market. And without the brand recognition.
You can do the same as Larian did. Make a game of an established franchise and you can enter the market. There are plenty of examples of that, plenty of videogames based of mangas and animes, in local tabletop games like the german TDE, in established franchises like D&D, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, WOD, in series of books like the Witcher, etc. Obsidian became famous using IPs from other studios and creating good games with them (Kotor 2, Fallout NV, NWN2 etc)
And if you do not have the money for it, and you try to make yet another diablo or TES or Assassins creed you´ll never be able to compete with big studios. One of the few ways to compete is to be creative and try something different, maybe find your own niche.
Never said it was easy, but it´s something I want to see.
And well, if you do not take risks, you also do not win. I wonder what would have happened if someone said to the guys of Firaxis "You want to make a game about a 20yo franchise, a tactical-shooting turn-based game? About aliens? In 2012? Xcom is never going to work. Just forget it"
Or to the Obsidian devs "Do you really want to take the battlegrounds setting of fallout3 and make a game with cowboys, roman legion cosplayers, vintage robots and taking place in Las Vegas? No way you can do a good game with it that people want to buy. Just stick to yet another battle frontline with trenches and derelict buildings like any shooter".
I prefer to have variety in my games instead of playing the same setting again and again, which was the point that started this particular topic. If a new game comes showing some setting that does not look like medieval Europe, they have my support.
Yeah, there hasn't been a good mainline final fantasy game in years, and there are only a few that stand out as quality RPGs in terms of mechanics in my opinion. Titles like FF V, III, Tactics, and to a lesser extent Brave Exvius were good because they allowed for full party customization and a variety of different builds and approaches to the game. Tactics has near endless depth, and can be brutally difficult to the uninitiated. The Gafgarion and Velius duels are some brick walls to many new players. V isn't too far behind in terms of customization.
Although the picture you posted is from Dissidia NT, a free to play fighting game. It's not too bad if you can stomach the animu protagonists. The villains are cooler to play as anyway. Dissidia 2 in particular is one of the deepest fighting games i've ever played.
I don't think ANY of them hold up mechanically compared to the Western titles they are based on (namely Wizardry). 75% of any Final Fantasy game basically plays itself. The VAST majority of fights in the turn-based ones are "Press A to win". The only interesting non-MMO mainline title is XII. There are some good games, but the systems are minimal at best.
I prefer to have variety in my games instead of playing the same setting again and again, which was the point that started this particular topic. If a new game comes showing some setting that does not look like medieval Europe, they have my support.
I get that this is your preference, and it's a preference I share. But it seems you're uninterested in seeing things from another perspective, as to why there is a proliferation of Western RPG's with similar settings and motifs. I've made a case, the overall market performance of these games backs that up. So I have nothing more to add.
I also feel like a lot of your points in this post get completely away from the initial argument. Making a reboot of XCOM, for example, is actually very much a data point in favor of game designers not wanting to take risks with fresh settings, I would argue. As well, Obsidian making games in long-established franchises and well tread settings. I mean, how is NWN2 a case for what you were earlier advocating, as opposed to a case against it?
@PsicoVic "You can do the same as Larian did. Make a game of an established franchise and you can enter the market."
I'd argue they haven't actually done that though.
@jjstraka34 "I don't think ANY of them hold up mechanically compared to the Western titles they are based on (namely Wizardry). 75% of any Final Fantasy game basically plays itself. The VAST majority of fights in the turn-based ones are "Press A to win"."
Uh, did you actually play any of them? Beyond the first hour? Because that doesn't resemble ANY of the standard combat of FF.
I prefer to have variety in my games instead of playing the same setting again and again, which was the point that started this particular topic. If a new game comes showing some setting that does not look like medieval Europe, they have my support.
I get that this is your preference, and it's a preference I share. But it seems you're uninterested in seeing things from another perspective, as to why there is a proliferation of Western RPG's with similar settings and motifs. I've made a case, the overall market performance of these games backs that up. So I have nothing more to add.
I also feel like a lot of your points in this post get completely away from the initial argument. Making a reboot of XCOM, for example, is actually very much a data point in favor of game designers not wanting to take risks with fresh settings, I would argue. As well, Obsidian making games in long-established franchises and well tread settings. I mean, how is NWN2 a case for what you were earlier advocating, as opposed to a case against it?
"Fallout NV" and "Xcom" games are examples of studios going against the mainstream settings and game mechanics of the time and deliver good games and decent sales.
Even if they picked existing IPs, they could have chosen to do not take the risk and make yet another FPS shooter set in a WW2-esque battleground (That´s exactly what Bethesda did with Fallout) like a dozen titles more, but they decided to make a tactical squad-based TB game with aliens and a wacky adventure in Vegas with bots, roman cosplayers and cowboys.
Yeah, going mainstream with the settings, using medieval Europe settings, Tolkienesque races, WW2 aesthetics, etc is a safe bet, nobody says otherwise; but it´s possible to do it differently (And desirable from my player perspective). Previous posts showed that you can make RPGs that are not in a medieval Europe setting, thrive and have good sales.
Disagree with another and expressing your own opinion in a polite manner, supported by data, even if it´s different from yours is hardly a sign of "being uninterested in seeing things from another perspective". Saying that kind of things to people that thinks differently definitely is.
I read what you´re saying. I just respectfully disagree: that´s not the only way... just saying
If we are talking about RPG videogames, the best-selling worldwide franchises are JRPGs(with some honourable exceptions like Diablo and TES games), by a long margin. So I´m not sure that it´s accurate.
A lot of those, while Japanese made perhaps, do have a western aesthetic (sp?). And Pokémon? Really?
The point @DinoDin and others are making is that when it comes to a fantasy setting, the majority of cRPGs are at best limited to their medieval europe area, and at worst the whole setting is limited to it. Instead of, say, ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, African cultures, Meso-american or Native American cultures, ancient japanese culture, etc.
But this completely misses what @Kamigoroshi and I are saying. Whether or not a game uses a "non-European" setting is a separate issue. Within the Forgotten Realms, you have many areas that are of the "European" variety, and still WotC uses only the Sword Coast/Neverwinter/Icewind Dale. That's our point. Why not Waterdeep, or Silverymoon, or Cormyr, or the Dalelands? These are also "European," so why not them? I personally would indeed prefer going to more fundamentally different places like Mulhorand or Kara-Tur, but you can find different places to set the game and still have it be "European."
As to that separate issue of whether games will sell if set in "non-European" settings, I don't know. I've read the posts here about JRPGs with interest, as I have never played a JRPG, but at the same time there is a LOT of discussion on the Obsidian forum about whether using a Polynesian setting for Deadfire contributed to lower sales. It's a good question.
SOMETHING needs to be done to remind people that D&D is NOT based on medeval Europe. Its an absurd thought I see everywhere these days, even on this very forum.
Why not Waterdeep, or Silverymoon, or Cormyr, or the Dalelands? These are also "European," so why not them? I personally would indeed prefer going to more fundamentally different places like Mulhorand or Kara-Tur, but you can find different places to set the game and still have it be "European."
Well, some of the named locations aren't really the poison I would pick. Waterdeep especially lies in the Sword Coast and thus a clear pass for me.
Even amongst the European-esque locations there are more interesting parts in Faerun for me. Chessenta is basically ancient Greece with a lot of epic RPG potential right there. The Moonshae Isles with their Irelandic/Welsh inspired flair may also be somewhat interesting with their fey situation. Then there is the Great Glacier with its ruins of the once mighty giant kingdom Ostoria - the whole region is basically Norway with a wild mix of Norse mythology, as well as both Sámi and Eskimo influence. That alone makes this giant iceberg biome more worthwhile to get an RPG adaption than Icewind Dale in my book. Also: arctic midged dwarves!
SOMETHING needs to be done to remind people that D&D is NOT based on medeval Europe. Its an absurd thought I see everywhere these days, even on this very forum.
True, D&D as a whole isn't based on Europe. Although a fair chunk of Faerun's countries, Greyhawk and Birthright are. Dragonlance was... so-so? All I remember are knights, castles and dragons on that one. Then there is Ravenloft with its rather strong Transylvanian setting. TSR loved to paste-copy real life locations and mythologies into their setting.
Why not Waterdeep, or Silverymoon, or Cormyr, or the Dalelands? These are also "European," so why not them? I personally would indeed prefer going to more fundamentally different places like Mulhorand or Kara-Tur, but you can find different places to set the game and still have it be "European."
Well, some of the named locations aren't really the poison I would pick. Waterdeep especially lies in the Sword Coast and thus a clear pass for me.
Even amongst the European-esque locations there are more interesting parts in Faerun for me. Chessenta is basically ancient Greece with a lot of epic RPG potential right there. The Moonshae Isles with their Irelandic/Welsh inspired flair may also be somewhat interesting with their fey situation. Then there is the Great Glacier with its ruins of the once mighty giant kingdom Ostoria - the whole region is basically Norway with a wild mix of Norse mythology, as well as both Sámi and Eskimo influence. That alone makes this giant iceberg biome more worthwhile to get an RPG adaption than Icewind Dale in my book. Also: arctic midged dwarves!
Oh yes, absolutely! My list of places was merely as examples.
Yeah, there hasn't been a good mainline final fantasy game in years, and there are only a few that stand out as quality RPGs in terms of mechanics in my opinion. Titles like FF V, III, Tactics, and to a lesser extent Brave Exvius were good because they allowed for full party customization and a variety of different builds and approaches to the game. Tactics has near endless depth, and can be brutally difficult to the uninitiated. The Gafgarion and Velius duels are some brick walls to many new players. V isn't too far behind in terms of customization.
Although the picture you posted is from Dissidia NT, a free to play fighting game. It's not too bad if you can stomach the animu protagonists. The villains are cooler to play as anyway. Dissidia 2 in particular is one of the deepest fighting games i've ever played.
I don't think ANY of them hold up mechanically compared to the Western titles they are based on (namely Wizardry). 75% of any Final Fantasy game basically plays itself. The VAST majority of fights in the turn-based ones are "Press A to win". The only interesting non-MMO mainline title is XII. There are some good games, but the systems are minimal at best.
I've played a lot of the Wizardry series, and like them for what they are, but the job system in FF- which they almost never use nowadays- does provide its own unique flavor to a lot of characters that is hard to find elsewhere. Gun using knights who can teleport across the battlefield, monks in full armor who leap in the air at their enemies, monster-tamers who can unlock unique skills on their monster allies, spear-throwing thieves who use their magic power to shield their HP, and that's a few of the possibilities in one game.
But yeah, most of them don't employ this system. V does to a decent extent though, and has enough optional superbosses to really test the limit of your class combos. I prefer the dancing bard, myself, or a monk who rapid fires his punches, or cover + shiradori for a totally defensive char.
SOMETHING needs to be done to remind people that D&D is NOT based on medeval Europe. Its an absurd thought I see everywhere these days, even on this very forum.
I blame an over-reliance on the Sword Coast to market the system as a whole.
But this completely misses what @Kamigoroshi and I are saying. Whether or not a game uses a "non-European" setting is a separate issue. Within the Forgotten Realms, you have many areas that are of the "European" variety, and still WotC uses only the Sword Coast/Neverwinter/Icewind Dale. That's our point. Why not Waterdeep, or Silverymoon, or Cormyr, or the Dalelands? These are also "European," so why not them? I personally would indeed prefer going to more fundamentally different places like Mulhorand or Kara-Tur, but you can find different places to set the game and still have it be "European."
I have to say, this doesn't appear to be true. Maybe it's the case that what's most memorable is from those settings? In which case that seems to reinforce my arguments from before about what the target audience wants.
Just perusing thru this list and yes, we see some Icewind Dale stuff. But could anyone look at that list and that say "WotC uses only the Sword Coast/Neverwinter/Icewind Dale"? Doesn't seem like a fair characterization to me.
Things seem to be different in terms of recent video games. Although even there, the misleading "Tales from Candlekeep" title is actually set in Chult. And there's simply not a lot of recent titles anyways.
Comments
I mean, nothing short of a divine intervention could explain that you wake up one day and suddenly your paladin doesn´t know how to feint, disarm and charge, your druid lost his animal companion for good and for some reason your wizard forgot that he/she can use metamagic.
Wiz-"Man, this blade ward and true strike spells do not last more than a breath, I do not even know why I bother to learn them"
Rogue-"Just extend them"
Wiz-"Excuse me? Magic spells are not chewing gum"
Rogue-"Extend spell... as in metamagic extend spell... you did it yesterday! You had like four or five thingies to make stuff with spells!"
Wiz-"I think you have mistaken me for Ballsfire, the sorcerer"
Rogue-"Ok Bandaid the paladin, I think ElMaster´s head got hit too much. Just show him how yo do that, use the extended bless spell, like yesterday"
Pally-"Dunno what you´re talking about. Extenwhat?"
Rogue-"Are you trolling me or what?. Ok, stop joking around, the enemy´s here. Bandaid! go and charge those enemies up there!"
Pally-"Come again? They´re too far"
Wiz-"He is a holy warrior, he does not charge anyone for fighting evil, you should know that. Unless he is an oathbreaker. They´re nincompoops"
Rogue-"Holy Cow! you have to charge... run and hit the enemy... as you always did before... You know what, life´s too precious for this nonsense. I´ll leave"
Pally-"You coward, even if hurts me, the codes of my god demands that I have to kill you for leaving the battle!"
Rogue-"No, you have not, because you do not have to follow the orders of a benevolent god anymore, pally"
Pally-"What do you mean? Of course I have to! I can´t even smite good creatures and...wait... No! I actually can"
Rogue-"Told ya"
Pally-"Cool, I always wanted some payback to those bartenders, always asking to kill the rats for them... just grab a bloody cat! It´s time for some evil smiting!".
Sorc: Ha! I know I only know 3 spells, but look at what I can do with them! Now I use twinning and the acid arrow targets two enemies! and now I make the arrow bigger, faster, stronger with my empowering! And now my mage armour is extended for half a day! and now I will make the arrows look like tiny unicorns! and the armour like angel wings behind me! and... Oh, damn! wild surge!
-Explosion-
Pally: Why did we hire a wild sorcerer, again?
Rogue: You killed the wizard trying your smiting against someone good in the previous post... Great smiting, btw.
Pally: Oh, that... Yeah, at least that would give some intensity to my Villain origin story, Don't you think?
Rogue: If you say so...
I have a lot of beefs with WotC. Number one being, they don't understand DnD, or why people like it, they would rather it be something else, and they constantly fall back on what was popular without understanding why it was popular or trying to recreate it.
I get this complaint, and I agree, but I don't think this setting issue is peculiar to WotC. Video games and modules have heavily relied on the European-esque areas for a long, long time. I'm not sure I can blame them, this is what sells.
We see this even outside of D&D. The Tolkein-esque, stereotypical, castles, and medieval Europe style stuff tends to attract larger audiences, from Dark Souls to the Witcher.
https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Best_selling_RPG_games
A lot of those, while Japanese made perhaps, do have a western aesthetic (sp?). And Pokémon? Really?
The point @DinoDin and others are making is that when it comes to a fantasy setting, the majority of cRPGs are at best limited to their medieval europe area, and at worst the whole setting is limited to it. Instead of, say, ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, African cultures, Meso-american or Native American cultures, ancient japanese culture, etc.
So I think that list kind of sidesteps some of the assumed context. Clearly a lot of those games do/did very well with markets that are outside of the scope of what a typical BG-style D&D CRPG would be, right?
There's obviously some overlap, as with all games, but I don't think it's fair to use sales figures from games that rely heavily on younger players and Asian markets. Even with those caveats thrown in, I still think some of those games even reveal how widespread the appeal of typical high-fantasy is. Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest have evolved into something different today, but both those series started with some pretty strong medieval European fantasy elements -- the original NES Final Fantasy, for much of its runtime is almost indistinguishable from D&D in its classes, weapons, monsters and NPCs.
Just saying, if we're going to ask why these developers so frequently make these games with similar settings and motifs, we need to be precise about who the market is and isn't.
Except that Final Fantasy, there are 666*10²³ FF games, The Elder Scrolls in other hands, has 5 games. Contrary to Square Enix which releases his FF 1/2/3/4(...)666 every single year, BUGthesda only releases skyrim over and over. Is not uncommon for a FF fan to have FF1 on SNES, NINTENDO, gameboy, android, and other dozens of platforms. Meanwhile, you can only play TES 1/2/3 in PC's. I know that morrowind has a original port to original xbox but is a poor quality port.
And I don't know how accurate that list is. Diablo 1 sold over 5 million of copies only on 90s, not counting modern sales on GoG. He doesn't appear in that list.
DinoDin is unfortunately right. Tolkein-esque games sells way more. Which doesn't means that games like Nioh 2 are not doing well. My point is that there are so many interesting places on D&D universe. The focus on low level kobold slaying on sword coast is just too boring for me.
FF1 was decent. Not good as Dark Sun or other SSI games but was decent. IDK if we can call it "evolve", it is in fact a devolution IMO.
And now? They force you to play as the most generic androgynous looking teenager with a oversized sword... An complete nonsensical weapon. What is the main advantage of swords? Swords aren't good on dealing with armor or large animals. Are expensive, require maintenance but are excelents backup weapons due PORTABILITY. If you make a oversized sword even if somehow your girly protagonist is strong enough to use it, you lose all sword advantages and gain no advantage over a proper battlefield weapon like a halberd/spear/warhammer.
That said, D&D nowadays is more known by the low level adventures on europeanesque regions. We will not see shadowfell, elemental planes, abyss, far realm, mount celeste, thay(...) in a modern video game. Sorry.
Although the picture you posted is from Dissidia NT, a free to play fighting game. It's not too bad if you can stomach the animu protagonists. The villains are cooler to play as anyway. Dissidia 2 in particular is one of the deepest fighting games i've ever played.
Anime protagonists aren't a problem. The problem is Generi-kun protagonists.
A generi-kun protagonist - Asta from black clover
A cool protagonist. Oda Nobunaga from Drifters
Anyway, if BG3 is easily moddable, I can bet money that people will mod The Anime Swordsman into BG3 https://www.dndbeyond.com/subclasses/39530-anime-swordsman
Class stuff?
There´s a huge world outside game developers of the US and Canada. You´ll miss a lot of good games if you cannot look past that. Friendly advice.
Again, I grasp your point, but I think you're excluding some important context with your advice.
Making a game that relies on sales from an unfamiliar market is a huge risk. I've said this before, but it really bears repeating on here. These kinds of games require an enormous commitment of money from Larian on the front end. They're making a huge bet. And this is in order to match expectation of what features these games have -- voice acting, high quality graphics, 100+ hours of content, multiple quest outcomes, etc.
I think it's super easy to say, hey take a risk with an unusual setting and maybe you'll be a splash in this market your company has never tapped before. But that is a big risk. Even if a company made a game drenched in historically Asian themes, there's no guarantee the game would appeal to that market based on that alone. You'll be competing with a bunch of firmly established franchises for gamers in that market. And without the brand recognition.
And if you do not have the money for it, and you try to make yet another diablo or TES or Assassins creed you´ll never be able to compete with big studios. One of the few ways to compete is to be creative and try something different, maybe find your own niche.
Never said it was easy, but it´s something I want to see.
And well, if you do not take risks, you also do not win. I wonder what would have happened if someone said to the guys of Firaxis "You want to make a game about a 20yo franchise, a tactical-shooting turn-based game? About aliens? In 2012? Xcom is never going to work. Just forget it"
Or to the Obsidian devs "Do you really want to take the battlegrounds setting of fallout3 and make a game with cowboys, roman legion cosplayers, vintage robots and taking place in Las Vegas? No way you can do a good game with it that people want to buy. Just stick to yet another battle frontline with trenches and derelict buildings like any shooter".
I prefer to have variety in my games instead of playing the same setting again and again, which was the point that started this particular topic. If a new game comes showing some setting that does not look like medieval Europe, they have my support.
I don't think ANY of them hold up mechanically compared to the Western titles they are based on (namely Wizardry). 75% of any Final Fantasy game basically plays itself. The VAST majority of fights in the turn-based ones are "Press A to win". The only interesting non-MMO mainline title is XII. There are some good games, but the systems are minimal at best.
He only covers party magic.
I get that this is your preference, and it's a preference I share. But it seems you're uninterested in seeing things from another perspective, as to why there is a proliferation of Western RPG's with similar settings and motifs. I've made a case, the overall market performance of these games backs that up. So I have nothing more to add.
I also feel like a lot of your points in this post get completely away from the initial argument. Making a reboot of XCOM, for example, is actually very much a data point in favor of game designers not wanting to take risks with fresh settings, I would argue. As well, Obsidian making games in long-established franchises and well tread settings. I mean, how is NWN2 a case for what you were earlier advocating, as opposed to a case against it?
I'd argue they haven't actually done that though.
@jjstraka34 "I don't think ANY of them hold up mechanically compared to the Western titles they are based on (namely Wizardry). 75% of any Final Fantasy game basically plays itself. The VAST majority of fights in the turn-based ones are "Press A to win"."
Uh, did you actually play any of them? Beyond the first hour? Because that doesn't resemble ANY of the standard combat of FF.
"Fallout NV" and "Xcom" games are examples of studios going against the mainstream settings and game mechanics of the time and deliver good games and decent sales.
Even if they picked existing IPs, they could have chosen to do not take the risk and make yet another FPS shooter set in a WW2-esque battleground (That´s exactly what Bethesda did with Fallout) like a dozen titles more, but they decided to make a tactical squad-based TB game with aliens and a wacky adventure in Vegas with bots, roman cosplayers and cowboys.
Yeah, going mainstream with the settings, using medieval Europe settings, Tolkienesque races, WW2 aesthetics, etc is a safe bet, nobody says otherwise; but it´s possible to do it differently (And desirable from my player perspective). Previous posts showed that you can make RPGs that are not in a medieval Europe setting, thrive and have good sales.
Disagree with another and expressing your own opinion in a polite manner, supported by data, even if it´s different from yours is hardly a sign of "being uninterested in seeing things from another perspective". Saying that kind of things to people that thinks differently definitely is.
I read what you´re saying. I just respectfully disagree: that´s not the only way... just saying
As to that separate issue of whether games will sell if set in "non-European" settings, I don't know. I've read the posts here about JRPGs with interest, as I have never played a JRPG, but at the same time there is a LOT of discussion on the Obsidian forum about whether using a Polynesian setting for Deadfire contributed to lower sales. It's a good question.
Even amongst the European-esque locations there are more interesting parts in Faerun for me. Chessenta is basically ancient Greece with a lot of epic RPG potential right there. The Moonshae Isles with their Irelandic/Welsh inspired flair may also be somewhat interesting with their fey situation. Then there is the Great Glacier with its ruins of the once mighty giant kingdom Ostoria - the whole region is basically Norway with a wild mix of Norse mythology, as well as both Sámi and Eskimo influence. That alone makes this giant iceberg biome more worthwhile to get an RPG adaption than Icewind Dale in my book. Also: arctic midged dwarves!
True, D&D as a whole isn't based on Europe. Although a fair chunk of Faerun's countries, Greyhawk and Birthright are. Dragonlance was... so-so? All I remember are knights, castles and dragons on that one. Then there is Ravenloft with its rather strong Transylvanian setting. TSR loved to paste-copy real life locations and mythologies into their setting.
I've played a lot of the Wizardry series, and like them for what they are, but the job system in FF- which they almost never use nowadays- does provide its own unique flavor to a lot of characters that is hard to find elsewhere. Gun using knights who can teleport across the battlefield, monks in full armor who leap in the air at their enemies, monster-tamers who can unlock unique skills on their monster allies, spear-throwing thieves who use their magic power to shield their HP, and that's a few of the possibilities in one game.
But yeah, most of them don't employ this system. V does to a decent extent though, and has enough optional superbosses to really test the limit of your class combos. I prefer the dancing bard, myself, or a monk who rapid fires his punches, or cover + shiradori for a totally defensive char.
I blame an over-reliance on the Sword Coast to market the system as a whole.
I have to say, this doesn't appear to be true. Maybe it's the case that what's most memorable is from those settings? In which case that seems to reinforce my arguments from before about what the target audience wants.
https://dnd.wizards.com/products/catalog/tabletop-games
Just perusing thru this list and yes, we see some Icewind Dale stuff. But could anyone look at that list and that say "WotC uses only the Sword Coast/Neverwinter/Icewind Dale"? Doesn't seem like a fair characterization to me.
Things seem to be different in terms of recent video games. Although even there, the misleading "Tales from Candlekeep" title is actually set in Chult. And there's simply not a lot of recent titles anyways.