What games are those with "good writing" for you, @hybridial? Are there any games from the last 10 years among them?
In that timeframe:
Shadowrun Dragonfall and Shadowrun Hong Kong were well done.
Pillars of Eternity was good.
Fallout New Vegas
Remothered: Tormented Fathers which was a pretty successful revival of the Clock Tower series, one I really like, had solid storytelling.
Mark of the Ninja, which is pretty minimal storytelling mostly but it has a very fascinating ending to it that surprised me.
Katana Zero is kind of similar in that I bought it for the action but find myself engaged by its interesting story ideas and story mechanics.
Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun - nothing mindblowing, but good.
Unavowed, Primordia & Resonance which are classic adventure point & click games published by Wadjet Eye were excellently written
Grey Matter just fits in that time frame and I thought was excellent too.
Mass Effect - the series had spurts of good writing, some really good characters, world building and concepts, unfortunately the main plot was bad.
Prior to 2010, I'll just drop names as there's going to be a number of these;
Silent Hill 2, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, Shin Megami Tensei III, Digital Devil Saga 1&3, Fallout, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers, Broken Sword, Thief, System Shock, System Shock 2, Suikoden II, Shadow Hearts, Shadow Hearts 2, Clock Tower (SNES game), Grim fandango, the Legacy of Kain series, Metal Gear series up until MGS 3, kinda lost me after that. I'll be missing some probably.
Games that I have not played, but intend to, that are conspicuous for this list;
Deus Ex, Planescape Torment, Thief 2, Tyranny, PIllars 2
Heh. I see. And here I am, considering writing in PoE worse that what I would expect from ...excellent, writing in Mass Effect worse than in DA:O (and I don't include the ending). Thanks for the list, though.
I think it's indeed impossible to agree on expectations about a good game if tastes differ so much.
The PoE games are the best classic RPGs in recent years for me. They are not perfect, of course, but are exceptionally good games that are superior to the D:OS games in every single way. Yes, the D:OS games sold better. So what? Pokemon sold even more better. Sales numbers do not even in the slightest say anything about the quality of a game because many elements of the "quality" of a game are inherently subjective.
Pillars of Eternity was kind of the opposite of my experiences with the Original Sin games, in that I actually rather disliked it initially, overall, but probably best to be clear here not in a manner that entirely made me want to stop playing. The gameplay was fine to me, I just want to feel like I'm engaging in some strategy, it did enough even if I'd still say BG2 was better in terms of challenge and encounters. I did like the tone and atmosphere as well, which honestly was the thing that kept me into it. And then when the writing finally started to come together, I actually loved how much thought was put into it.
Obsidian took a hell of a risk really because a lot of people say they hated Pillars because the writing was too dry, and I cannot argue with that because for like 15 hours it really is. But the reward is amazing in the end. But to someone who stopped playing it because they put 10 hours into it and feel they were just done, I can understand that. I love the risks that Obsidian took though because they paid off for me.
Again... PoE2 might undo a lot of that good will, but we'll see.
Pillars of Eternity was kind of the opposite of my experiences with the Original Sin games, in that I actually rather disliked it initially, overall, but probably best to be clear here not in a manner that entirely made me want to stop playing. The gameplay was fine to me, I just want to feel like I'm engaging in some strategy, it did enough even if I'd still say BG2 was better in terms of challenge and encounters. I did like the tone and atmosphere as well, which honestly was the thing that kept me into it. And then when the writing finally started to come together, I actually loved how much thought was put into it.
Obsidian took a hell of a risk really because a lot of people say they hated Pillars because the writing was too dry, and I cannot argue with that because for like 15 hours it really is. But the reward is amazing in the end. But to someone who stopped playing it because they put 10 hours into it and feel they were just done, I can understand that. I love the risks that Obsidian took though because they paid off for me.
Again... PoE2 might undo a lot of that good will, but we'll see.
I'm the complete opposite, the first 2/3 of PoE, I really enjoyed, but felt like the story completely petered out as soon as you left Defiance Bay. Also the big reveal felt like nothing, because I had no attachment to the gods. They shouldn't have done that till 2-3 games had established them. All the DLC and the stuff under the keep felt weak and linear boring dungeon crawlery. I only ever finished the game once, and every time I get back past Defiance Bay, I just lose interest. Can you tell I've never finished Ice Wind Dale?
I actually did really dig PoE2 and finished it multiple times. Better story, real exploration and the multi-classing really added a lot to it, plus pirates. I still think it's stupid might affects everything, though.
It's similar with the DOS games for me, never finished the first one, but completed the second one multiple times. The first one just had too long of stretches of dungeon crawling with nothing happening, and the fights all dragged on too long and felt tedious. There's a lot more interesting stuff around in the second one, and the fights tend to resolve a lot faster, they either go south or you win a lot faster most of the time.
Not about surpassing a bar, it's more about taking a different approach to game design, and shooting for a different target audience. Even if you didn't like OS, I think it's unreasonable to characterize those games as being targeted towards drawing in casual gamers in the way Skyrim was.
Pillars of Eternity was kind of the opposite of my experiences with the Original Sin games, in that I actually rather disliked it initially, overall, but probably best to be clear here not in a manner that entirely made me want to stop playing. The gameplay was fine to me, I just want to feel like I'm engaging in some strategy, it did enough even if I'd still say BG2 was better in terms of challenge and encounters. I did like the tone and atmosphere as well, which honestly was the thing that kept me into it. And then when the writing finally started to come together, I actually loved how much thought was put into it.
Obsidian took a hell of a risk really because a lot of people say they hated Pillars because the writing was too dry, and I cannot argue with that because for like 15 hours it really is. But the reward is amazing in the end. But to someone who stopped playing it because they put 10 hours into it and feel they were just done, I can understand that. I love the risks that Obsidian took though because they paid off for me.
Again... PoE2 might undo a lot of that good will, but we'll see.
I'm the complete opposite, the first 2/3 of PoE, I really enjoyed, but felt like the story completely petered out as soon as you left Defiance Bay. Also the big reveal felt like nothing, because I had no attachment to the gods. They shouldn't have done that till 2-3 games had established them. All the DLC and the stuff under the keep felt weak and linear boring dungeon crawlery. I only ever finished the game once, and every time I get back past Defiance Bay, I just lose interest. Can you tell I've never finished Ice Wind Dale?
I actually did really dig PoE2 and finished it multiple times. Better story, real exploration and the multi-classing really added a lot to it, plus pirates. I still think it's stupid might affects everything, though.
It's similar with the DOS games for me, never finished the first one, but completed the second one multiple times. The first one just had too long of stretches of dungeon crawling with nothing happening, and the fights all dragged on too long and felt tedious. There's a lot more interesting stuff around in the second one, and the fights tend to resolve a lot faster, they either go south or you win a lot faster most of the time.
I hated D:OS1/2 about PoE, i found the PoE 1 average and PoE 2 an good game.
Can seems like an small detail but trust me. Is not. PoE 2 is the first game that finally understood that piracy on "new world" isn't just about carib and tropical islands. Finally someone understood that just like the extreme north is cold, the extreme south is also cold. If you google "Ushuaia temperature" and "Toronto temperature", you will have an idea.
There are an huge diversity on building architecture, weather, etc on PoE 2
I still like more BG1/2 because honestly, they have much more cooler spells and abilities and the combat is more "brutal"...
That's kinda my point - if you have to find an explanation why your mechanic works this way, then you've already failed. At least if it's fantasy - because it's fantasy. You should focus on flowing story and snapping dialog, not on boring stuff like logic behind mechanics unless it's important to the plot. Otherwise you just end up with yet another insipidly realistic medieval world full of rats, mud and famine and devoid of literacy, hygiene and razors.
Yep. I would rather devs focused on explaining the place of magic in their setting, instead of trying to rationalize the mechanics of turning people into frogs.
Morrowind's mechanics were bonkers, but at the same time the game had giant insects used for travel, wizards growing mushroom towers, necromancy being banned except for when you turned your ancestors into tomb guardians and so on. That's what made its world so immersive.
Morrowind is heavily influentied by African, Middle eastern and etc mythology.
And despite the broken mechanics, still funnier and more immersive than skyrim, oblivion or online.
About necromancy being illegal except when is to conjure an ancestor, there are an huge lore involving religion on morrowind that i will not discuss because is off topic.
I think i owe all of you a bit of explanation about why im so bent, to disagree with "3" in BG title, and Nay in the pool.
Most of you, who post here are well informed, read many forums, surfs trough net, and is very well versed in D&D world, and its lore. So for you its not a problem with number "3" in BG tittle, and that's fine for me, its your opinion and your choice. I respect that.
But, think for a moment about people who don't know Larian statement, who don't know D&D lore, and did not read any forums in this topic, but they are die-hard fans of Baldur's Gate saga.
Imagine what will happen when they go to shop, buy "BG 3" and they will never find Gorion Ward, but some new, random hero... yep you guessed correctly, they will fell cheated.
That's all from me in this topic. I will stay on Nay, because tittle, and still empty hype (at least for now).
We all know how last hype ended, when someone asked about: "Do you not have phones ?"
I wanna spare BG fans similar disappointment.
I could point many other reasons for my opinion, and my Nay judgement, but whats the point. This of you who wish to hear me out, will understand, this who not, will only hate me more.
But, think for a moment about people who don't know Larian statement, who don't know D&D lore, and did not read any forums in this topic, but they are die-hard fans of Baldur's Gate saga.
You forgot: and also buy BG3.
This is some niche group of people!
Isn't it a bit patronising to worry about a possible misunderstanding by some improbable people who are suckers for spending money on a product without informing themselves?
Isn't it a bit patronising to worry about a possible misunderstanding by some improbable people who are suckers for spending money on a product without informing themselves?
You know, world is amazing place, full of different type of people
Now seriously, lets say in modern days, certain sacred thing, like a DEMO is no more, and some people simply can't look for info's, for various reasons, due to job, lack of time, demanding duties, false hypes, misunderstanding, and other reasons. After all first BG fans are not young anymore (by spirit and mind they still are ), and they are busy in everyday life.
Look, whatever one's personal view may be about cooldowns as a mechanism for rationing spellcasting, the bottom line is this: If you get rid of spell slots, spell memorization, and resting, and replace all of that with cooldowns, you no longer have a D&D game. And yes, they haven't said that's what they're doing. I'm speaking hypothetically. This is a core part of D&D; it has existed through all the D&D editions. This is not like tinkering with the 'to hit' mechanic or the pace of leveling up. This would be gutting a fundamental aspect of what makes D&D D&D and replacing it with a mechanic that is completely alien to D&D. You may think cooldowns are awesome and that's fine. But they're just not D&D. Period. A BG3 with cooldowns would literally be no different from what SCL did to D&D rules.
Look, whatever one's personal view may be about cooldowns as a mechanism for rationing spellcasting, the bottom line is this: If you get rid of spell slots, spell memorization, and resting, and replace all of that with cooldowns, you no longer have a D&D game. And yes, they haven't said that's what they're doing. I'm speaking hypothetically. This is a core part of D&D; it has existed through all the D&D editions. This is not like tinkering with the 'to hit' mechanic or the pace of leveling up. This would be gutting a fundamental aspect of what makes D&D D&D and replacing it with a mechanic that is completely alien to D&D. You may think cooldowns are awesome and that's fine. But they're just not D&D. Period. A BG3 with cooldowns would literally be no different from what SCL did to D&D rules.
4th edition had a different variation. It was not Vancian, it was a series of "At will", "Encounter" and "Daily" spell. "Encounter" powers were similar to a cooldown lasting the a whole fight.
Look, whatever one's personal view may be about cooldowns as a mechanism for rationing spellcasting, the bottom line is this: If you get rid of spell slots, spell memorization, and resting, and replace all of that with cooldowns, you no longer have a D&D game. And yes, they haven't said that's what they're doing. I'm speaking hypothetically. This is a core part of D&D; it has existed through all the D&D editions. This is not like tinkering with the 'to hit' mechanic or the pace of leveling up. This would be gutting a fundamental aspect of what makes D&D D&D and replacing it with a mechanic that is completely alien to D&D. You may think cooldowns are awesome and that's fine. But they're just not D&D. Period. A BG3 with cooldowns would literally be no different from what SCL did to D&D rules.
4th edition had a different variation. It was not Vancian, it was a series of "At will", "Encounter" and "Daily" spell. "Encounter" powers were similar to a cooldown lasting the a whole fight.
At the same time that d3 is an example of how ruin an Arpg, and scl about how ruin an crpg, 4e is the best example of how ruin an pnp rpg...
Exactly because why organize groups to play an game that lacks depht as any generic mmo does?
I hoppe that bg3 become easily moddable so the community will be able to fix it. Like mods fixed conjuration/necromancy on nwn1/2.... That are inviable because they are too limited
Look, whatever one's personal view may be about cooldowns as a mechanism for rationing spellcasting, the bottom line is this: If you get rid of spell slots, spell memorization, and resting, and replace all of that with cooldowns, you no longer have a D&D game. And yes, they haven't said that's what they're doing. I'm speaking hypothetically. This is a core part of D&D; it has existed through all the D&D editions. This is not like tinkering with the 'to hit' mechanic or the pace of leveling up. This would be gutting a fundamental aspect of what makes D&D D&D and replacing it with a mechanic that is completely alien to D&D. You may think cooldowns are awesome and that's fine. But they're just not D&D. Period. A BG3 with cooldowns would literally be no different from what SCL did to D&D rules.
4th edition had a different variation. It was not Vancian, it was a series of "At will", "Encounter" and "Daily" spell. "Encounter" powers were similar to a cooldown lasting the a whole fight.
Yeah, 4th edition is so beloved too. Good example.
@mlnevese
Unfortunately I can't add more options or I would. Variations of Yay and Nay and Undecided.
@ThacoBell
I suppose there are those that like 4th edition...they're wrong though. 4th Edition butchered the alignment system and that is an unforgivable sin. I believe we can both agree on that my friend.
Yeah, 4th edition is so beloved too. Good example.
For someone who has complained about the "Yay" folks attacking the "Nay" folks, you're being needlessly petulant about me simply pointing out that 4th edition had a magic system that is similar (ish) to cooldowns.
I didnt even render a value judgement on 4th edition. Jeez.
Yeah, 4th edition is so beloved too. Good example.
For someone who has complained about the "Yay" folks attacking the "Nay" folks, you're being needlessly petulant about me simply pointing out that 4th edition had a magic system that is similar (ish) to cooldowns.
I didnt even render a value judgement on 4th edition. Jeez.
Yes, and we can't fear that Larien will make an game more similar to 4e instead of 5e?
This is an strawman, i said an game MORE SIMILAR, not in 4e.
And yes, considering that for him missing, spell slots, and leveling needs to change, is not an baseless fear.
Yes, agreed. One might rightly say that it is a bit early for those fears, but it not baseless with the statements about core mechanics not working well in videogames, when basically the same statements are what originally led to the 4th edition changes.
Comments
In that timeframe:
Shadowrun Dragonfall and Shadowrun Hong Kong were well done.
Pillars of Eternity was good.
Fallout New Vegas
Remothered: Tormented Fathers which was a pretty successful revival of the Clock Tower series, one I really like, had solid storytelling.
Mark of the Ninja, which is pretty minimal storytelling mostly but it has a very fascinating ending to it that surprised me.
Katana Zero is kind of similar in that I bought it for the action but find myself engaged by its interesting story ideas and story mechanics.
Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun - nothing mindblowing, but good.
Unavowed, Primordia & Resonance which are classic adventure point & click games published by Wadjet Eye were excellently written
Grey Matter just fits in that time frame and I thought was excellent too.
Mass Effect - the series had spurts of good writing, some really good characters, world building and concepts, unfortunately the main plot was bad.
Prior to 2010, I'll just drop names as there's going to be a number of these;
Silent Hill 2, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, Shin Megami Tensei III, Digital Devil Saga 1&3, Fallout, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers, Broken Sword, Thief, System Shock, System Shock 2, Suikoden II, Shadow Hearts, Shadow Hearts 2, Clock Tower (SNES game), Grim fandango, the Legacy of Kain series, Metal Gear series up until MGS 3, kinda lost me after that. I'll be missing some probably.
Games that I have not played, but intend to, that are conspicuous for this list;
Deus Ex, Planescape Torment, Thief 2, Tyranny, PIllars 2
I think it's indeed impossible to agree on expectations about a good game if tastes differ so much.
Welcome to this subforum, where visitors debate endlessly about each others' tastes.
Obsidian took a hell of a risk really because a lot of people say they hated Pillars because the writing was too dry, and I cannot argue with that because for like 15 hours it really is. But the reward is amazing in the end. But to someone who stopped playing it because they put 10 hours into it and feel they were just done, I can understand that. I love the risks that Obsidian took though because they paid off for me.
Again... PoE2 might undo a lot of that good will, but we'll see.
I'm the complete opposite, the first 2/3 of PoE, I really enjoyed, but felt like the story completely petered out as soon as you left Defiance Bay. Also the big reveal felt like nothing, because I had no attachment to the gods. They shouldn't have done that till 2-3 games had established them. All the DLC and the stuff under the keep felt weak and linear boring dungeon crawlery. I only ever finished the game once, and every time I get back past Defiance Bay, I just lose interest. Can you tell I've never finished Ice Wind Dale?
I actually did really dig PoE2 and finished it multiple times. Better story, real exploration and the multi-classing really added a lot to it, plus pirates. I still think it's stupid might affects everything, though.
It's similar with the DOS games for me, never finished the first one, but completed the second one multiple times. The first one just had too long of stretches of dungeon crawling with nothing happening, and the fights all dragged on too long and felt tedious. There's a lot more interesting stuff around in the second one, and the fights tend to resolve a lot faster, they either go south or you win a lot faster most of the time.
Not about surpassing a bar, it's more about taking a different approach to game design, and shooting for a different target audience. Even if you didn't like OS, I think it's unreasonable to characterize those games as being targeted towards drawing in casual gamers in the way Skyrim was.
I hated D:OS1/2 about PoE, i found the PoE 1 average and PoE 2 an good game.
Can seems like an small detail but trust me. Is not. PoE 2 is the first game that finally understood that piracy on "new world" isn't just about carib and tropical islands. Finally someone understood that just like the extreme north is cold, the extreme south is also cold. If you google "Ushuaia temperature" and "Toronto temperature", you will have an idea.
There are an huge diversity on building architecture, weather, etc on PoE 2
I still like more BG1/2 because honestly, they have much more cooler spells and abilities and the combat is more "brutal"...
Morrowind is heavily influentied by African, Middle eastern and etc mythology.
And despite the broken mechanics, still funnier and more immersive than skyrim, oblivion or online.
About necromancy being illegal except when is to conjure an ancestor, there are an huge lore involving religion on morrowind that i will not discuss because is off topic.
Most of you, who post here are well informed, read many forums, surfs trough net, and is very well versed in D&D world, and its lore. So for you its not a problem with number "3" in BG tittle, and that's fine for me, its your opinion and your choice. I respect that.
But, think for a moment about people who don't know Larian statement, who don't know D&D lore, and did not read any forums in this topic, but they are die-hard fans of Baldur's Gate saga.
Imagine what will happen when they go to shop, buy "BG 3" and they will never find Gorion Ward, but some new, random hero... yep you guessed correctly, they will fell cheated.
That's all from me in this topic. I will stay on Nay, because tittle, and still empty hype (at least for now).
We all know how last hype ended, when someone asked about: "Do you not have phones ?"
I wanna spare BG fans similar disappointment.
I could point many other reasons for my opinion, and my Nay judgement, but whats the point. This of you who wish to hear me out, will understand, this who not, will only hate me more.
That's all.
You forgot: and also buy BG3.
This is some niche group of people!
Isn't it a bit patronising to worry about a possible misunderstanding by some improbable people who are suckers for spending money on a product without informing themselves?
You know, world is amazing place, full of different type of people
Now seriously, lets say in modern days, certain sacred thing, like a DEMO is no more, and some people simply can't look for info's, for various reasons, due to job, lack of time, demanding duties, false hypes, misunderstanding, and other reasons. After all first BG fans are not young anymore (by spirit and mind they still are
4th edition had a different variation. It was not Vancian, it was a series of "At will", "Encounter" and "Daily" spell. "Encounter" powers were similar to a cooldown lasting the a whole fight.
At the same time that d3 is an example of how ruin an Arpg, and scl about how ruin an crpg, 4e is the best example of how ruin an pnp rpg...
Exactly because why organize groups to play an game that lacks depht as any generic mmo does?
I hoppe that bg3 become easily moddable so the community will be able to fix it. Like mods fixed conjuration/necromancy on nwn1/2.... That are inviable because they are too limited
Yeah, 4th edition is so beloved too. Good example.
Unfortunately I can't add more options or I would. Variations of Yay and Nay and Undecided.
@ThacoBell
I suppose there are those that like 4th edition...they're wrong though. 4th Edition butchered the alignment system and that is an unforgivable sin. I believe we can both agree on that my friend.
For someone who has complained about the "Yay" folks attacking the "Nay" folks, you're being needlessly petulant about me simply pointing out that 4th edition had a magic system that is similar (ish) to cooldowns.
I didnt even render a value judgement on 4th edition. Jeez.
Yes, and we can't fear that Larien will make an game more similar to 4e instead of 5e?
They make a 5e game. You can fear whatever you want, vaccines, chemtrails, a 4e BG3 - but it doesnt reflect to current state of info we have.
https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/dungeons-and-dragons-fifth-edition
This is an strawman, i said an game MORE SIMILAR, not in 4e.
And yes, considering that for him missing, spell slots, and leveling needs to change, is not an baseless fear.
Yes, agreed. One might rightly say that it is a bit early for those fears, but it not baseless with the statements about core mechanics not working well in videogames, when basically the same statements are what originally led to the 4th edition changes.