This is an strawman, i said an game MORE SIMILAR, not in 4e.
And yes, considering that for him missing, spell slots, and leveling needs to change, is not an baseless fear.
Yes, agreed. One might rightly say that it is a bit early for those fears, but it not baseless with the statements about core mechanics not working well in videogames, when basically the same statements are what originally led to the 4th edition changes.
And the same statements that lead to SCL, that lead to D3...
Unless he says that his "changes" will be 100% optional, is "Nay". But after SCl, 4e, etc why people still don't understand that D&D fans don't wanna generic mmoish rules??
Yeah, 4th edition is so beloved too. Good example.
For someone who has complained about the "Yay" folks attacking the "Nay" folks, you're being needlessly petulant about me simply pointing out that 4th edition had a magic system that is similar (ish) to cooldowns.
I didnt even render a value judgement on 4th edition. Jeez.
I apologize. It was not my attention to attack you. I just wanted to point out taht comparing the game to 4th ed is not likely to make people feel better. I am also incredibly sarcastic. My apologies.
Let's be fair to the Nay here though. I haven't seen any namecalling coming from them, but I've a bunch of it coming from the "Yay" side. So no, I don't think both sides are equivalent.
The Baldur’s Gate games are probably my favourite games of all time and Larian make games that are critically acclaimed (although I have little experience of them). This seems very promising! Whilst I have certain wishes about how this should play out (RTwP, minimum 6 person party), if the game is of excellent quality and true to the spirit of the earlier games, which I am hopeful about, this could be awesome
This poll really needed a "I will wait for more information" option
I think the same, that's why I never voted.
Now, I there only was a "May..." option
Since polls here don't allow you to change your vote, it may be best to wait to put up a new poll until after we have seen some gameplay video or other gameplay details. I'll bet several yays will become (assuming they're true to their word) nays at that point.
@ilduderino I’ve played both the Divinity Original Sin games and they definitely deserve the generally very high praise that they get. I do appreciate that the humour may not be for everyone and some people don’t like turn based games but I found them highly enjoyable.
I'd like to note one thing that is being often mentioned when people discuss complaints about games. Those who don't like something are more vocal.
If you read a thread, it might look to you (I remember @ThacoBell mentioned that the majority of users have concerns about Larian) that it's 50-50 in terms of Yay or Nay, but the poll results are the following:
93 votes Yay
17 votes Nay
And among those 17 votes, at least 8 users are more or less active in the subforum, posting each day (approximately). Among those 93 votes, though, hardly 1/10 of them is active in the subforum.
@JuliusBorisov Its not quite as clear cut as that. There are also people in the thread who have siad they are skeptical, but refrained from voting without seeing the game first. So its not quite that one-sided.
@JuliusBorisov@ThacoBell
While I agree it’s not quite as clear cut without the option to vote for a ‘I wanna wait until more info/gameplay is released’ I still do think from what I’ve seen on not just this forum that it is generally a higher % of people saying they are positive about this and are looking forward to it.
For those whoare saying "yay!", if the game comes with mmo style leveling of everyone at max level but level cap meaning nothing, mmo style gearing(gear being the dna of your char, not eqquipment), mmo style combat with cooldowns and blows that always hit but enemies that require be impaled 40 times in the head by an halberd to die, etc. do you think that the game will be near good as Bg1/Bg2?????
Meh, we can sit here and imagine a thousand deviations from typical DnD rules about how the game will be terrible. It's not really productive to do so. In fact, it's literally just filling the board with inaccurate information.
For those whoare saying "yay!", if the game comes with mmo style leveling of everyone at max level but level cap meaning nothing, mmo style gearing(gear being the dna of your char, not eqquipment), mmo style combat with cooldowns and blows that always hit but enemies that require be impaled 40 times in the head by an halberd to die, etc. do you think that the game will be near good as Bg1/Bg2?????
if <something_untrue> then <this_is_entirely_irrelevant>
How you can be sure that they will not deviate from dnd rules if for the lead designer, leveling, spell slots, resting and missing "doesnt work in a video game"(note : it worked on tons of games, not only D&D)
Anyway, not only D:OS has bad modern mechanics(CDs, never miss but everyone is a arrow/spell spongee and nerf range for bows and ultra gear dependency that makes the game more about gear than about characters), D:OS has an awful art-style. At least in my opinion. Due more "logical consistent mechanics " and artstyle, i feel much more immersed on M&M VIII that is one of the worst of the series(better than X and IX) than on D:OS. Armor looks like "carnival suits" on d:os TBH. That is the main reason for my concern. If BG will be more like BG1/2 or more like D:OS. I really wish that all quotes that i've heard are wrong, but...
"In other words, their opinions don't matter." How wonderful. From a moderator, no less. Stay classy, man.
Honestly, it's shocking how much you've been trying to discount the opinions of people who have a different take on this, rather than acknowledging and engaging with them.
I have a theory, that Beamdog still has the chance to make D&D games, but WotC naturally doesn't want backbiting among their licensees. So word came down for Beamdog emoyees to be on their best behavior, and not breathe a single critical word against Larian.
It would explain a lot.
An man. Challenging the authenticity of someone's position on a conspiracy theory is really gross. We dont need to go there in this forum. There's been some chippiness between sides, but I think it's beyond the pale. You and I have had sterner disagreements than most in the past week, but I've never once doubted the authenticity of your own passion for your arguments. I hope no one else has, either.
FWIW, I didnt interpret his post as "In other words, their opinions don't matter" - and if you asked him directly, I bet he would say the same thing.
@ThacoBell - Yeah. No problem. Thanks for saying that. I agree that suggesting the game might have a mechanic (somewhat) in common with 4th edition isnt going to persuade anyone to like. It wasnt my intent to persuade anyone, just making an observation.
I wont derail the thread too much, but I think 4th edition maybe gets a little more flack than it deserves. I vastly prefer 3rd and 5th (and 2nd), but I had some fun playing 4th.
And among those 17 votes, at least 8 users are more or less active in the subforum, posting each day (approximately). Among those 93 votes, though, hardly 1/10 of them is active in the subforum.
This is also how I see it on other sites.
Among passive lurkers those who don't care are less likely to bother at all with voting than those who do.
New title is so very obviously going to be different, that one doesn't really need to read the holy war chronicles to figure that out. So if it's not up to their taste and they've got no time to argue, they probably wouldn't even register the vote.
For those whoare saying "yay!", if the game comes with mmo style leveling of everyone at max level but level cap meaning nothing, mmo style gearing(gear being the dna of your char, not eqquipment), mmo style combat with cooldowns and blows that always hit but enemies that require be impaled 40 times in the head by an halberd to die, etc. do you think that the game will be near good as Bg1/Bg2?????
Dude, you can't use that argument on repeat, it has one day timer. Cool down
(And laugh if you will at the comparison, but think of it - combat gets a lot less monotone if you have to use different abilities each round. It's not just the balance issue, but aesthetic too.)
"In other words, their opinions don't matter." How wonderful. From a moderator, no less. Stay classy, man.
Honestly, it's shocking how much you've been trying to discount the opinions of people who have a different take on this, rather than acknowledging and engaging with them.
Sharing opinion about others' shared opinions is not a free speech violation.
How you can be sure that they will not deviate from dnd rules if for the lead designer, leveling, spell slots, resting and missing "doesnt work in a video game"(note : it worked on tons of games, not only D&D)
Anyway, not only D:OS has bad modern mechanics(CDs, never miss but everyone is a arrow/spell spongee and nerf range for bows and ultra gear dependency that makes the game more about gear than about characters)
You're literally posting things that are false. It reveals alot about the merits of your arguments. OS games *do* have to-hit rolls, for just one of many falsehoods.
(...)
(And laugh if you will at the comparison, but think of it - combat gets a lot less monotone if you have to use different abilities each round. It's not just the balance issue, but aesthetic too.(...)[
Did you really played BG 1/2? On my solo IWD run, i can count with my finger how many times i've used the same spell 3 times in roll.
Cooldowns are an way of HANDHOLDING and artificial limitation. You are only using different spells because the system forces you and even the modern games, the best ones in therms of combat like Dragon's Dogma and Dark Souls don't use CDs. Only noobs use the same spell or "R1 spam" on DkS pvp. Good players tries to be harder to dodge and harder to predict. CDs only force you to spam the same rotation.
One question. If Forbidden sun instead of spell slots had CDs, so the PC is forced into an spell rotation, anyone here really believes that the combat on the game will be better? If everyone needs to wear "carnival looking armor" in order to have stronger unarmed attacks and magical attacks, anyone believe that the combat would be better?
DkSis the unique modern franchise that offers the same immersion as old school cRPG's. No BS mechanics. No Carnival looking weapon/armor, etc. PoE in less extend too. But D:OS uses too much modern game mechanics and art-style and looks like Larien will try to "modernize" BG3
How you can be sure that they will not deviate from dnd rules if for the lead designer, leveling, spell slots, resting and missing "doesnt work in a video game"(note : it worked on tons of games, not only D&D)
Anyway, not only D:OS has bad modern mechanics(CDs, never miss but everyone is a arrow/spell spongee and nerf range for bows and ultra gear dependency that makes the game more about gear than about characters)
You're literally posting things that are false. It reveals alot about the merits of your arguments. OS games *do* have to-hit rolls, for just one of many falsehoods.
Then explain what i posted is false.
About missing on D:OS, it barely happens. An death knight in full plate armor buffed by illusion spells and with an tower shield is likely to kill a big group of goblins without taking any damage. And it makes perfectly sense.
chimaera where i've said that BG is a hard game? I said that is an immersive game. BG is only hard if you have an no reload challenge in mind and play on max difficulty
But looks like Larien will change the resting too, but they will make resting more limited and risky like P:K or remove completely and add cooldowns? My guess is the second.
PS : How in original level cap, you defeated the Belhifet? Without tenser transformation and BBoD i can't kill him due his "SR".
Cooldowns are an way of HANDHOLDING and artificial limitation. You are only using different spells because the system forces you and even the modern games, the best ones in therms of combat like Dragon's Dogma and Dark Souls don't use CDs. Only noobs use the same spell or "R1 spam" on DkS pvp. Good players tries to be harder to dodge and harder to predict. CDs only force you to spam the same rotation.
It's the rotation that seems like an issue to me here, i.e. when the tactical environment doesn't change dramatically during the time it take for ability to recharge.
If we're talking about one million HP enemies when your damage is about one thousand, then yeah, I agree it's horseshit design to headshot them a hundred times while you skills cool down.
Or you can have HoMM6 or KB, where unit positions, state and quantity can change very greatly in a couple turns, and cooldowns mostly exist to keep the powerful abilities usage unlimited but neither too frequent. Who would bother using Black Dragon for normal attack if it could spend each turn flying over the map raining firestorm upon everything in its path. And if you weaken the ability enough to enable constant use without upsetting balance, then it loses the epic factor.
Cooldowns are an way of HANDHOLDING and artificial limitation. You are only using different spells because the system forces you and even the modern games, the best ones in therms of combat like Dragon's Dogma and Dark Souls don't use CDs. Only noobs use the same spell or "R1 spam" on DkS pvp. Good players tries to be harder to dodge and harder to predict. CDs only force you to spam the same rotation.
It's the rotation that seems like an issue to me here, i.e. when the tactical environment doesn't change dramatically during the time it take for ability to recharge.
If we're talking about one million HP enemies when your damage is about one thousand, then yeah, I agree it's horseshit design to headshot them a hundred times while you skills cool down.
Or you can have HoMM6 or KB, where unit positions, state and quantity can change very greatly in a couple turns, and cooldowns mostly exist to keep the powerful abilities usage unlimited but neither too frequent. Who would bother using Black Dragon for normal attack if it could spend each turn flying over the map raining firestorm upon everything in its path. And if you weaken the ability enough to enable constant use without upsetting balance, then it loses the epic factor.
I only played HoMM 3. But we are talking about RPG, not strategy games. And on M&M(not heroes) VI-VII and VIII that are considered the best in the series, there are no CDs, there are misses, randomness, etc.
Talking about epic factor, what sounds more epic?
A ) An hellfire warlock that when draw upon the might hellfire, receive an CON damage due the powerful nature of hellfire that is dangerous even for his conjurer
B ) An hellfire warlock that trows an hellfire eldricht blast and then needs to wait (insert arbitrary amount of secs) to trow it again, he can use other hellfire skills, but no hellfire eldritch blast
The "A" way is the way that most old school RPG's will deal with the class in question. The "B", most modern games... In most cases, it even ruin some class fantasies. Grim Dawn skeletons on CDs kill the fantasy of an necromancer. And CDs exist even with trowing grenades. That is awful.
You can "balance" the same skills to an system similar to spell slots that worked pretty well on all D&D games and even on action games such as Dark Souls 1/2. Anyone here thinks that DkS 1/2 has an bad combat?
A ) An hellfire warlock that when draw upon the might hellfire, receive an CON damage due the powerful nature of hellfire that is dangerous even for his conjurer
B ) An hellfire warlock that trows an hellfire eldricht blast and then needs to wait (insert arbitrary amount of secs) to trow it again, he can use other hellfire skills, but no hellfire eldritch blast
There is no choice here because A doesn't work. Make the cost too high or permanent, and nobody will use it. Make it sustainable enough, and players will minmax the CON and slug potions to recuperate.
The "A" way is the way that most old school RPG's will deal with the class in question. The "B", most modern games... In most cases, it even ruin some class fantasies. Grim Dawn skeletons on CDs kill the fantasy of an necromancer. And CDs exist even with trowing grenades. That is awful.
I'm unfamiliar with skeletons, but can relate to the grenades. The problem is generally that grenades or any other rare ammo are consumables, i.e. something that ends up never used and stockpiled for hypothetical boss fight. It happens in BG2 as well - stocking up on rare potions and arrows and carrying them around instead of actually using. But make them rechargeable, and suddenly you're not afraid of accidentally wasting them. FWIW I'd prefer a system where you can find fewer grenades, but each increases the number of available charges per fight.
There is no choice here because A doesn't work. Make the cost too high or permanent, and nobody will use it. Make it sustainable enough, and players will minmax the CON and slug potions to recuperate.
Not if there are an limited number of it on stock of each merchant. Again, you are trying to make everything that is not an artificially limitation that makes no sense, not work. When games that has no cooldowns has the best combat. Doesn't matter if they are isometric aRPG's(diablo 2), 3rd person aRPG(dark souls for eg), classic RPG's(baldur's gate), they are the best ones. Nobody, even mmo fans like to constnat watch to an bar to see what skills they can use(this is why macroing is common on mmos)
Explosive arrow on Dragon's Dogma for eg has no CDs and works well due the inventory system. So, you don't purchase infintie arrows and use it to kill everyone on BI isles. When i miss an tenfold furry with explosive arrow, it really "hurts".
Hellfire warlock worked well on nwn2 vanilla or with mods to make warlock more pnp-like. And some skills cause attribute damage.
. The problem is generally that grenades or any other rare ammo are consumables, i.e. something that ends up never used and stockpiled for hypothetical boss fight. It happens in BG2 as well - stocking up on rare potions and arrows and carrying them around instead of actually using. But make them rechargeable, and suddenly you're not afraid of accidentally wasting them.
And what is the problem? Nobody uses 14.5x114mm incendiary ammo to hunt rabbits IRL but use this ammo against armored vehicles. The same logic should apply on a "medieval world", you should't use bodkin arrows in unarmored weak enemies. But if you need to assassinate someone in plate armor, you will use bodkin arrow and the deadliest poison that you can find.
An world where bodkin arrows works on CDs and poison too makes zero sense. But an world where you need to spend a lot of resources to apply that strategy makes sense. Only because "supernatural" elements exists in your world, doesn't means that they should work in ways that makes no sense.
This mechanics already ruined MMOs, are ruining isometric aRPG's and i don't wanna then ruining cRPG's too. No CDs, no gear determining everything, no nerf range for ranged weapons(...) I an not saying that an RPG needs to be realistic, just immersive as LoTR movies.
Comments
Only if that's what everyone else wants.
And the same statements that lead to SCL, that lead to D3...
Unless he says that his "changes" will be 100% optional, is "Nay". But after SCl, 4e, etc why people still don't understand that D&D fans don't wanna generic mmoish rules??
That would be much appreciated.
I think the same, that's why I never voted.
Now, I there only was a "May..." option
I apologize. It was not my attention to attack you. I just wanted to point out taht comparing the game to 4th ed is not likely to make people feel better. I am also incredibly sarcastic. My apologies.
Let's be fair to the Nay here though. I haven't seen any namecalling coming from them, but I've a bunch of it coming from the "Yay" side. So no, I don't think both sides are equivalent.
Since polls here don't allow you to change your vote, it may be best to wait to put up a new poll until after we have seen some gameplay video or other gameplay details. I'll bet several yays will become (assuming they're true to their word) nays at that point.
If you read a thread, it might look to you (I remember @ThacoBell mentioned that the majority of users have concerns about Larian) that it's 50-50 in terms of Yay or Nay, but the poll results are the following:
93 votes Yay
17 votes Nay
And among those 17 votes, at least 8 users are more or less active in the subforum, posting each day (approximately). Among those 93 votes, though, hardly 1/10 of them is active in the subforum.
This is also how I see it on other sites.
While I agree it’s not quite as clear cut without the option to vote for a ‘I wanna wait until more info/gameplay is released’ I still do think from what I’ve seen on not just this forum that it is generally a higher % of people saying they are positive about this and are looking forward to it.
if <something_untrue> then <this_is_entirely_irrelevant>
Anyway, not only D:OS has bad modern mechanics(CDs, never miss but everyone is a arrow/spell spongee and nerf range for bows and ultra gear dependency that makes the game more about gear than about characters), D:OS has an awful art-style. At least in my opinion. Due more "logical consistent mechanics " and artstyle, i feel much more immersed on M&M VIII that is one of the worst of the series(better than X and IX) than on D:OS. Armor looks like "carnival suits" on d:os TBH. That is the main reason for my concern. If BG will be more like BG1/2 or more like D:OS. I really wish that all quotes that i've heard are wrong, but...
And there are mods for this games
An man. Challenging the authenticity of someone's position on a conspiracy theory is really gross. We dont need to go there in this forum. There's been some chippiness between sides, but I think it's beyond the pale. You and I have had sterner disagreements than most in the past week, but I've never once doubted the authenticity of your own passion for your arguments. I hope no one else has, either.
FWIW, I didnt interpret his post as "In other words, their opinions don't matter" - and if you asked him directly, I bet he would say the same thing.
@ThacoBell - Yeah. No problem. Thanks for saying that. I agree that suggesting the game might have a mechanic (somewhat) in common with 4th edition isnt going to persuade anyone to like. It wasnt my intent to persuade anyone, just making an observation.
I wont derail the thread too much, but I think 4th edition maybe gets a little more flack than it deserves. I vastly prefer 3rd and 5th (and 2nd), but I had some fun playing 4th.
New title is so very obviously going to be different, that one doesn't really need to read the holy war chronicles to figure that out. So if it's not up to their taste and they've got no time to argue, they probably wouldn't even register the vote.
Dude, you can't use that argument on repeat, it has one day timer. Cool down
(And laugh if you will at the comparison, but think of it - combat gets a lot less monotone if you have to use different abilities each round. It's not just the balance issue, but aesthetic too.)
Sharing opinion about others' shared opinions is not a free speech violation.
You're literally posting things that are false. It reveals alot about the merits of your arguments. OS games *do* have to-hit rolls, for just one of many falsehoods.
Did you really played BG 1/2? On my solo IWD run, i can count with my finger how many times i've used the same spell 3 times in roll.
Cooldowns are an way of HANDHOLDING and artificial limitation. You are only using different spells because the system forces you and even the modern games, the best ones in therms of combat like Dragon's Dogma and Dark Souls don't use CDs. Only noobs use the same spell or "R1 spam" on DkS pvp. Good players tries to be harder to dodge and harder to predict. CDs only force you to spam the same rotation.
Other good things about DkS is that due the lack of gear dependency, pure RP builds that barely uses gear are perfectly viable.
One question. If Forbidden sun instead of spell slots had CDs, so the PC is forced into an spell rotation, anyone here really believes that the combat on the game will be better? If everyone needs to wear "carnival looking armor" in order to have stronger unarmed attacks and magical attacks, anyone believe that the combat would be better?
DkSis the unique modern franchise that offers the same immersion as old school cRPG's. No BS mechanics. No Carnival looking weapon/armor, etc. PoE in less extend too. But D:OS uses too much modern game mechanics and art-style and looks like Larien will try to "modernize" BG3
Then explain what i posted is false.
About missing on D:OS, it barely happens. An death knight in full plate armor buffed by illusion spells and with an tower shield is likely to kill a big group of goblins without taking any damage. And it makes perfectly sense.
But looks like Larien will change the resting too, but they will make resting more limited and risky like P:K or remove completely and add cooldowns? My guess is the second.
PS : How in original level cap, you defeated the Belhifet? Without tenser transformation and BBoD i can't kill him due his "SR".
If we're talking about one million HP enemies when your damage is about one thousand, then yeah, I agree it's horseshit design to headshot them a hundred times while you skills cool down.
Or you can have HoMM6 or KB, where unit positions, state and quantity can change very greatly in a couple turns, and cooldowns mostly exist to keep the powerful abilities usage unlimited but neither too frequent. Who would bother using Black Dragon for normal attack if it could spend each turn flying over the map raining firestorm upon everything in its path. And if you weaken the ability enough to enable constant use without upsetting balance, then it loses the epic factor.
I only played HoMM 3. But we are talking about RPG, not strategy games. And on M&M(not heroes) VI-VII and VIII that are considered the best in the series, there are no CDs, there are misses, randomness, etc.
Talking about epic factor, what sounds more epic?
A ) An hellfire warlock that when draw upon the might hellfire, receive an CON damage due the powerful nature of hellfire that is dangerous even for his conjurer
B ) An hellfire warlock that trows an hellfire eldricht blast and then needs to wait (insert arbitrary amount of secs) to trow it again, he can use other hellfire skills, but no hellfire eldritch blast
The "A" way is the way that most old school RPG's will deal with the class in question. The "B", most modern games... In most cases, it even ruin some class fantasies. Grim Dawn skeletons on CDs kill the fantasy of an necromancer. And CDs exist even with trowing grenades. That is awful.
You can "balance" the same skills to an system similar to spell slots that worked pretty well on all D&D games and even on action games such as Dark Souls 1/2. Anyone here thinks that DkS 1/2 has an bad combat?
Not if there are an limited number of it on stock of each merchant. Again, you are trying to make everything that is not an artificially limitation that makes no sense, not work. When games that has no cooldowns has the best combat. Doesn't matter if they are isometric aRPG's(diablo 2), 3rd person aRPG(dark souls for eg), classic RPG's(baldur's gate), they are the best ones. Nobody, even mmo fans like to constnat watch to an bar to see what skills they can use(this is why macroing is common on mmos)
Explosive arrow on Dragon's Dogma for eg has no CDs and works well due the inventory system. So, you don't purchase infintie arrows and use it to kill everyone on BI isles. When i miss an tenfold furry with explosive arrow, it really "hurts".
Hellfire warlock worked well on nwn2 vanilla or with mods to make warlock more pnp-like. And some skills cause attribute damage.
And what is the problem? Nobody uses 14.5x114mm incendiary ammo to hunt rabbits IRL but use this ammo against armored vehicles. The same logic should apply on a "medieval world", you should't use bodkin arrows in unarmored weak enemies. But if you need to assassinate someone in plate armor, you will use bodkin arrow and the deadliest poison that you can find.
An world where bodkin arrows works on CDs and poison too makes zero sense. But an world where you need to spend a lot of resources to apply that strategy makes sense. Only because "supernatural" elements exists in your world, doesn't means that they should work in ways that makes no sense.
This mechanics already ruined MMOs, are ruining isometric aRPG's and i don't wanna then ruining cRPG's too. No CDs, no gear determining everything, no nerf range for ranged weapons(...) I an not saying that an RPG needs to be realistic, just immersive as LoTR movies.