It would have been nice if they went with the most common ending to the BG saga: "...and the Ward of Gorion died on the steps of the Friendly Arm Inn." OK, maybe not.
[Childhood flashbacks to getting curbstombed over and over again by Tarnesh while my Mom argues with my Aunt and Uncle in the next room]
No please!...NOT ANOTHER MAGIC MISSILE!...AHHHHH!
I lost track of the amount of times I had to reload, ironically I've failed several No-Reload Runs but all of them have been successful in either dispatching Tarnesh or surviving off the skin of their teeth long enough for the guards to do the same.
And before someone mentions "Larian said themselves they would have full freedom", I'd like to note that the freedom they were talking about was the freedom to change skills/spells/classes/etc, not the lore aspects.
One thing that was obvious during the SoD development was that the lore should be respected. And a developer can't influence it, no matter how much creative freedom they have.
If they acknowledge Abdel Adrian in BG3 I will be filled with rage because that means that the games aren't canon and the books are.
We don't acknowledge the books here.
It doesn't really matter what we acknowledge, WOTC said the books were cannon a long time ago. Long before MiBG came out.
And "the games" can't be cannon, because there's so many different endings. They had to pick one particular ending and run with that.
It would have been nice if they went with the most common ending to the BG saga: "...and the Ward of Gorion died on the steps of the Friendly Arm Inn." OK, maybe not.
What about unexpected critical hits just a you're walking around inside Candlekeep?
I'm not even sure people should get all bent out of shape about the novels being canon for BG3. Not yet anyways.
I doubt Larian is going to want to fill up the text of their game with someone else's story. I suspect references to the Bhaalspawn are going to be kept intentionally vague and intentionally sidelined while Larian focuses on the story *they* want to tell.
I could be proven wrong when we get more info, but it'd go against how most games are written.
I lost track of the amount of times I had to reload, ironically I've failed several No-Reload Runs but all of them have been successful in either dispatching Tarnesh or surviving off the skin of their teeth long enough for the guards to do the same.
Imoen's wand of magic missiles is your friend. Just time it right and Tarnesh is never a threat.
@DinoDin
I agree. But Noob Me took a long time to figure that out. It's also great for Bassilus, Neira, Mulahey and (if you still have any charges left) Nimbul.
@DinoDin
I agree. But Noob Me took a long time to figure that out. It's also great for Bassilus, Neira, Mulahey and (if you still have any charges left) Nimbul.
Yes, an invaluable no reload tool for sure. I definitely remember dying to Tarnesh when noob too, but the early thing that always killed me big time was the Nashkel kobold commandos! At least with Tarnesh, your auto save was pretty much right there. But you could be clearing half a level of the mines and get one-shotted by those guys. And even now, I can't always remember their placement perfectly.
And before someone mentions "Larian said themselves they would have full freedom", I'd like to note that the freedom they were talking about was the freedom to change skills/spells/classes/etc, not the lore aspects.
One thing that was obvious during the SoD development was that the lore should be respected. And a developer can't influence it, no matter how much creative freedom they have.
Only one question. Why 90s/earlier 00s D&D adaptations was relative close to pnp and modern D&D adaptations so rare and completely alien to the source material? I mean, Eye of Beholder 1/2/3, Pool of Radiance(1988). CURSE OF THE AZURE BONDS, Dark Sun, MENZOBERRANZAN, Dungeon Hack, etc, etc, etc. There was an ton of D&D adaptations on late 80s/earlier 90s. On late 90s/earlier 00s, we got BG1/2, IWD1/2, NWN, ToEE, less games than "golden era games" but amazing games. NWN1 had an active community making modules and hakpacks until this day.
And from 2010~2020? Sword Coast Legends, Neverwinter mmo who i don't know why have neverwinter on his name(barely resembles nwn1/2)
@SorcererV1ct0r Most likely, it's the DnD right-holder change that then changed the approach. Also, you have to take into account all the books we're talking about here in the context of BG3 are rather recent - and you can see the unifying aspects everywhere in today's culture.
BG3 can also become an amazing game with an active modding community, btw. SCL and NWN MMO have no effect on BG3 because they weren't created by Larian (the studio existing since 1997, btw).
Neverwinter MMO is called that because the original Neverwinter Nights (1991) was also an online multiplayer game, using the Goldbox engine.
But the 1991 neverwinter is more like an online version of Pool of radiance(in therms of rule consistency), neverwinter mmo has cooldowns, projectiles that disappear by no reason after few meters, inflated numbers, homogenization, etc.
@SorcererV1ct0r Most likely, it's the DnD right-holder change that then changed the approach. Also, you have to take into account all the books we're talking about here in the context of BG3 are rather recent - and you can see the unifying aspects everywhere in today's culture.
BG3 can also become an amazing game with an active modding community, btw. SCL and NWN MMO have no effect on BG3 because they weren't created by Larian (the studio existing since 1997, btw).
After Wizards of the Coast purchased TSR in 1997, we still got an decent amount of good adaptations from almost an decade, 3e/3.5e received a lot of adaptations. ToEE being the most faithful of then all and the last one NWN2 being an decent game and amazing game with mods to make spells and classes like warlock more pnp like.
PS : I mentioned SCL and nwn mmo because they are recent projects.
I think WotC was heavily eyeing the MMORPG marked with those changes (and with 4th Edition), and wanted the rules adapted to fit closer the standards there.
I think WotC was heavily eyeing the MMORPG marked with those changes (and with 4th Edition), and wanted the rules adapted to fit closer the standards there.
But mmos are awful. I can't judge pre wow mmos since i din't had good internet in that time, but WotC should't look to mmos, i really hate some things that are almost universal on then like
Cooldowns. Casts/rest like DkS, very long casting time on Dragon's Dogma, require high resources like most games, but in general mmo's tends to have a lot of cooldowns. Kotor 1 and 2 has not cooldown but swtor has. Same happens to neverwinter nights. NWN1 and 2 has no cooldowns. neverwinter online has.
Stats linked on gear. On a RPG stats should measure your character capabilities, i can't fell immersed in a world where everyone is the same without the gear but can easily change everything about then by changing the cloths. On older fallout games, if you try play with very low int, you barely can talk. Requirements are good for very action focused games. For example, on demon souls to use Long Bow you need 15 STR. Fully draw an longbow requires a lot of strength, that makes sense. Some type of small bonus to not defense coming for armor is fine. But most of stats should be chooses by the player. Is that hard to make attributes works like attributes and armor like armor?????
No choices and consequences/homogenization. For example, if you decide to become an vampire, it should give a lot of power, but make you much more weaker to fire and take sun damage. Sun damages you or at least make you weaker(Skyrim) in all elder scrolls game, from Daggerfall to Oblivion, except on ESO(mmo and arena who din't had vampirism), where vampires can enjoy sunbaths without great problem and even on Skyrim, someone can argue that the sun in the Skyrim region is weaker. I can understand why an mmo will not allow this, it will make the player OP in certain situations and useless in another, but IMO the immersion and choices/consequences are far more important than the game balance. I remember when i played DkS 2 as a pyromancer. Iron Keep is being very hard by it. If you decided to be an paladin, you should ve very powerful against undead but should have some weakness to compensate it.There are tradeoffs on game design and if you have a lot of choices with impacful decisions, you will have an less balanced game.
This is why i HATE most mmos. This is why i have 200+ hours of NWN1:EE, 150+ of NWN gold(gog), 127 of NWN2 and could't play neverwinter mmo for more than an day. 4e
That is why YOU hate mmos. WoW had over 10 millions subscriber, so it is hard to argue that they didn't do something right.
Yes, but tabletop fans genrally think like myself. WoW had over 10 mi subs BUT D&D when launched 4e trying to be an generic mmo in P&P, failed so miserably that lost the stoplight of "most sold tabletop game" to Pathfinder. This is why so many crowdfounding projects like Pathfinder Kingmaker, Solasta, etc are being successful. A lot of people hate this mmo bull****
I am confident this forum knows your preferences by now, but unfortunately your figures means nothing @SorcererV1ct0r for others than yourself. And even though everyone is of course entitled to their own opinions, games like WoW has been the moneymaking machines of the industry that everyone wants (wanted?) to copy. Though the haydays might have declined a bit after too many lackluster entries (maybe Anthem's debacle is the last nail in the coffin? figuratively speaking), individuals can never be the basis for choices. It's always gonna be about finding the sweet spot where you please as many people in your target group just enough to get them to enjoy a game or more, while scaring away as few as possible. That's where you make a shitload of money.
I <...> games like WoW has been the moneymaking machines of the industry that everyone wants (wanted?) to copy. Though the haydays might have declined a bit after too many lackluster entries (maybe Anthem's debacle is the last nail in the coffin? figuratively speaking), individuals can never be the basis for choices. <...>.
Lets be real
On mmo market, try to copy wow is an awful idea because you will not create decades worth of content in few months of developing and even if you have access to an alien technology and managed to do that, nobody will leave an fictional world with friends and guildmates to play your mmo.
On SP "loot hunter" games, every times that an game tried to get mmoish mechanics, failed miserably. D3 is much more close to wow than to Diablo and thanks to crowdfunding, GGG developed Path of Exile who is far closer to an Diablo sequel. PoE is always in the most played steam games. And D3 had an second expansion canceled despite good initial sales(marketing and brand recognition).
On SP story focused RPG's, everyone knows that DA:O is better than DA2 or DA:I(more mmo like)
Diablo 1 despite the $20 price is on top most sold GOG games
On tabletop, 4e made D&D lose the ttitle of most sold tabletop game
So, why big developers are so obsessed to copy the mechanics of wow that nobody likes outside wow??? Those who like barbie dressing character development with spreedsheet tab same rotation spam combat are already on mmos. Those who hate it are already on more old school games. Make an game called BG3 that will plays more like WoW will not attract the WoW fans nor the BG fans... We have an total of ZERO crowdfunded wow clones or scl clones but we got Pathfinder Kingmaker, Solasta, etc. Exactly because big companioes are putting a lot of wowish mechanics on their games...
EDIT : Remember lawbreakers? Tried to praise hero shooter fans and arena shooter fans. The hero shooter fans stayed with OW and the arena shooter with old school Quake and LB? Failed miserably...
And before someone mentions "Larian said themselves they would have full freedom", I'd like to note that the freedom they were talking about was the freedom to change skills/spells/classes/etc, not the lore aspects.
One thing that was obvious during the SoD development was that the lore should be respected. And a developer can't influence it, no matter how much creative freedom they have.
Its amazing how often people in this thread jump between "I trust Larian's word and this game will be awesome because they say so" and "You can't use what Larina said as an argument because what they said is only partially true."
And before someone mentions "Larian said themselves they would have full freedom", I'd like to note that the freedom they were talking about was the freedom to change skills/spells/classes/etc, not the lore aspects.
One thing that was obvious during the SoD development was that the lore should be respected. And a developer can't influence it, no matter how much creative freedom they have.
Its amazing how often people in this thread jump between "I trust Larian's word and this game will be awesome because they say so" and "You can't use what Larina said as an argument because what they said is only partially true."
I didn't say that. They didn't say what you think they said. They mentioned an ability to change skills/spells/classes/etc, not the lore aspects.
@SorcererV1ct0r You're missing my point. I'm not talking about what games are good or not when it comes to playing mechanics, I'm talking about the driving force among companies on what game mechanics to focus on to reach as big of a target group as possible.
Please try to understand these three things;
1: I'm not pro-MMO features. Personally I dislike MMOs and the few I have tried I have quickly stopped playing. I also am not a fan of SP games that borrow MMO-esque features.
2: I'm not arguing against you, merely trying to broaden your view on what and how a gaming market actually works. I don't work with gaming but I am a Business Controller with many years of Corporate Finance work, so I can at least partially understand the cost/benefit and payback calculations used by the industry to choose where to invest their money. Because you gotta understand, the big companies are not artists making art, they are capital investment companies trying to get as much leverage out of their cash as possible.
3: You repeat the same opinions a lot of times and keep saying things like "everyone knows that DA:O is better than DA2 or DA:I(more mmo like)" yet what everyone thinks or knows is not the same as corporate revenue. And money is always and will always be the main driving factor. Mind you, not the only factor, I said main factor.
Now I don't follow sales, it's completely uninteresting for me personally what other ppl like or how much money companies earn. I just googled a list of top grossing RPGs and found this:
Individual Entries Edit
This list only counts entries above 5 million
Pokémon Red/Green/Blue/Yellow - 59.52 million
Pokémon Gold/Silver/Crystal - 42.21 million
Pokémon Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald - 36.6 million The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim - 30 million[14]
Pokémon Diamond/Pearl/Platinum - 25.27 million
Pokémon Sun and Moon - 24.09 million Diablo III - 20 million (30 million including Reaper of Souls) Pokémon X and Y - 16.34 million
Pokémon Black and White - 15.64 million World of Warcraft - 15 million subscribers
Final Fantasy VII - 13.11 million Fallout 3 - 12.4 million
Fallout 4 - 12 million
Final Fantasy XIV - 10.9 million subscribers
Final Fantasy VI - 10.18 million (4.9 million excluding bundles)
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - 10 million
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion - 9.5 million
Final Fantasy X - 9.34 million
Final Fantasy VIII - 8.8 million The Elder Scrolls Online - 8.5 million Final Fantasy XV - 8.4 million
Final Fantasy XIII - 7.7 million
Secret of Mana - 7.5 million[15]
Super Mario RPG - 7.42 million
Final Fantasy X-2 - 7.24 million
Final Fantasy XII - 7.2 million
Dragon Quest III - 6.45 million
Dragon Quest V - 6.22 million
Dragon Quest IV - 5.97 million
Final Fantasy IX - 5.93 million
Kingdom Hearts - 5.9 million
Dragon Quest VIII - 5.81 million
Dragon Quest VII - 5.57 million
Dragon Quest IX - 5.35 million
Xeno - 5.27 million
Diablo II - 5.2 million[3]
Final Fantasy I - 5.19 million
Final Fantasy IV: The After Years - 5.06 million
Fallout: New Vegas - 5 million
I've bolded some interesting games, all of which are or clearly have MMO-esque attributes (I've included Fallout 3/4 in there but excluded Witcher 3. personally, for me Witcher 3 was too much MMOesque for my taste so I stopped playing it, but to each his own.
As you can see here on this list (but I can't say for sure the list is accurate), the big bucks seem to come from MMO games or MMOesque games. D3 which you never cease hating is a good example of a game that obviosluy despite it's many haters has earned Blizz a bucketload of cash. D4 will no doubt do the same once released.
So to summarize, no matter what the more artsy gamer enthusiasts think, games with MMO attributes make money, thus companies will continue to make them until other genres take over and start to earn more. When/if that will ever happen, I have no idea of course.
And lastly, don't take this as a personal attacks on your beliefs, feelings or opinions. All of this is just my neutral way of helping you see why the arguments you make are a bit unfounded at times.
And you have to log into Bhaalspawn GO for Macegrimoire in order to get that shiny normal type Boohamtarou monster.
The sad reality is that the real buckets are now made in the mobile gaming market where ads, loot boxes and monthly subscriptions rule supreme. The PC and console stores are nowadays more of an afterthought for many developers. Which can be blandly seen by Blizzard with their Diablo Immortal, Bethesda's Blades title or the staggering amount of new Pokemon phone games. *sigh*
It's very damaging in the long-run though... Biowares brand means nothing anymore.. They don't have the credibility they used to and most of the old employees have left. They managed to tank all of their franchises....
And lol out of all the WoW competitors.. How many of them actually succeeded, before promptly shutting down after a short lived period?
About your list, i strongly disagree.
Skyrim is dumbed down, but has no mmoish mechanics like cooldowns(except on shouts) and stats linked towards armor, nor limitations that makes no sense like arrows disappearing after few meters. And skyrim has twice the amount of sales of ESO according to your list.
Same for Fallout 3/4. If you try to use an .308 rifle with low skill/attribute, you will have to deal with an drunk swayAnd Fallout New vegas is on that list, Pokemon who is on top of your list doesn't have this mmoish mechanics. Fallout New Vegas with MMOIsh mechanics will have an anti materiel rifle and an anti materiel rifle with another skin who despite using the same ammo, increases your muscle mass by 50kg, deals 7662638746% more damage, increases your IQ by 27 points and the projectile magically disappears after 15m. That is how gearing and attributes works on most wow clones.
In fact, there are no cooldown and gear determining char attributes in your list form the position 1 to 6. And the 7th most sold game in your list have the second expansion canceled. And read about what Blizzard executives think about D3
"What they told the team was, 'You've finished Reaper of Souls, it's really good. But we think the best thing for the IP is to move to Diablo 4 in whatever form that'll be. The overall sense on the team, at least in my impression, was that there was a vote of no confidence from the executive. They thought Diablo 3 was a giant f**k-up."
source https://screenrant.com/diablo-3-second-expansion-canceled-explained/
But the point is. I see only WoW there, no WoW clone even reached 10% of what WoW reached. And is an waste of time to aim on WoW audience because
Decades of content
Social aspect(guild members)
Due sub fee, is common for wow fans to only play wow so they will not even try your wow clone.
This is why souls clones got success, diablo clones got success but wow clones will never succeed.
edit : how Dark Souls is not on that list??? I mean, only Dark Souls Prepare to Die, an awful console port, has 5 mi steam PC users > https://steamspy.com/app/211420 I an sure that with console sales, DkS 1 would have at least 20 mi copies sold.
And lol out of all the WoW competitors.. How many of them actually succeeded, before promptly shutting down after a short lived period?
Even ESO who have an amazing brand had to cut the "sub fee" in order to sell an tiny fraction of what Skyrim sold... And talking about D&D products. What product adapted the mmoish mechanics and succeed? 4e? SCL? Neverwinter mmo? Dungeons & Dragons Online?
Absurd to call "cooldowns" an MMO mechanic. I mean, they long pre-date the MMO, and not even every MMO uses them. Just for one example. You can't just start calling mechanics that you personally dislike "MMO-ish".
Absurd to call "cooldowns" an MMO mechanic. I mean, they long pre-date the MMO, and not even every MMO uses them. Just for one example. You can't just start calling mechanics that you personally dislike "MMO-ish".
Not true. " The minimum length of time that the player needs to wait after using an ability before they can use it again. This concept was first introduced by the text MUD Avalon: The Legend Lives." source > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms
MUDs was very similar to mmo. And mmos tends to put CDs, even when their SP counterparts has no CD. NWN 1/2 vs Neverwinter mmo, Kotor 1/Kotor 2 vs swtor...
Anyway, he said that even modern fallouts has mmo stuff and i disagree. If everyone in the world has the same skills and attributes and the unique way to increase your repairing skills and inteligence is by finding an power armor, that will not be used to protect you but to increase your repair skills and if instead of ammo like .50 BMG incendiary/explosive being rare and heavy(hc), being just skills on cooldown and every fight was press "tab", them spam the same explosive -> incendiary -> ap -> etc rotation, and be sure to not be at more than 15m from your target due an range limitation that makes no sense, then it will be an MMO-like experience.
The unique fallout who have very mmoish gear progression(but no cooldown) is fallout 76...
Comments
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
[Childhood flashbacks to getting curbstombed over and over again by Tarnesh while my Mom argues with my Aunt and Uncle in the next room]
No please!...NOT ANOTHER MAGIC MISSILE!...AHHHHH!
I lost track of the amount of times I had to reload, ironically I've failed several No-Reload Runs but all of them have been successful in either dispatching Tarnesh or surviving off the skin of their teeth long enough for the guards to do the same.
And before someone mentions "Larian said themselves they would have full freedom", I'd like to note that the freedom they were talking about was the freedom to change skills/spells/classes/etc, not the lore aspects.
One thing that was obvious during the SoD development was that the lore should be respected. And a developer can't influence it, no matter how much creative freedom they have.
What about unexpected critical hits just a you're walking around inside Candlekeep?
I doubt Larian is going to want to fill up the text of their game with someone else's story. I suspect references to the Bhaalspawn are going to be kept intentionally vague and intentionally sidelined while Larian focuses on the story *they* want to tell.
I could be proven wrong when we get more info, but it'd go against how most games are written.
Imoen's wand of magic missiles is your friend. Just time it right and Tarnesh is never a threat.
I agree. But Noob Me took a long time to figure that out. It's also great for Bassilus, Neira, Mulahey and (if you still have any charges left) Nimbul.
Yes, an invaluable no reload tool for sure. I definitely remember dying to Tarnesh when noob too, but the early thing that always killed me big time was the Nashkel kobold commandos! At least with Tarnesh, your auto save was pretty much right there. But you could be clearing half a level of the mines and get one-shotted by those guys. And even now, I can't always remember their placement perfectly.
Only one question. Why 90s/earlier 00s D&D adaptations was relative close to pnp and modern D&D adaptations so rare and completely alien to the source material? I mean, Eye of Beholder 1/2/3, Pool of Radiance(1988). CURSE OF THE AZURE BONDS, Dark Sun, MENZOBERRANZAN, Dungeon Hack, etc, etc, etc. There was an ton of D&D adaptations on late 80s/earlier 90s. On late 90s/earlier 00s, we got BG1/2, IWD1/2, NWN, ToEE, less games than "golden era games" but amazing games. NWN1 had an active community making modules and hakpacks until this day.
And from 2010~2020? Sword Coast Legends, Neverwinter mmo who i don't know why have neverwinter on his name(barely resembles nwn1/2)
BG3 can also become an amazing game with an active modding community, btw. SCL and NWN MMO have no effect on BG3 because they weren't created by Larian (the studio existing since 1997, btw).
But the 1991 neverwinter is more like an online version of Pool of radiance(in therms of rule consistency), neverwinter mmo has cooldowns, projectiles that disappear by no reason after few meters, inflated numbers, homogenization, etc.
After Wizards of the Coast purchased TSR in 1997, we still got an decent amount of good adaptations from almost an decade, 3e/3.5e received a lot of adaptations. ToEE being the most faithful of then all and the last one NWN2 being an decent game and amazing game with mods to make spells and classes like warlock more pnp like.
PS : I mentioned SCL and nwn mmo because they are recent projects.
But mmos are awful. I can't judge pre wow mmos since i din't had good internet in that time, but WotC should't look to mmos, i really hate some things that are almost universal on then like
This is why i HATE most mmos. This is why i have 200+ hours of NWN1:EE, 150+ of NWN gold(gog), 127 of NWN2 and could't play neverwinter mmo for more than an day. 4e
Yes, but tabletop fans genrally think like myself. WoW had over 10 mi subs BUT D&D when launched 4e trying to be an generic mmo in P&P, failed so miserably that lost the stoplight of "most sold tabletop game" to Pathfinder. This is why so many crowdfounding projects like Pathfinder Kingmaker, Solasta, etc are being successful. A lot of people hate this mmo bull****
Lets be real
So, why big developers are so obsessed to copy the mechanics of wow that nobody likes outside wow??? Those who like barbie dressing character development with spreedsheet tab same rotation spam combat are already on mmos. Those who hate it are already on more old school games. Make an game called BG3 that will plays more like WoW will not attract the WoW fans nor the BG fans... We have an total of ZERO crowdfunded wow clones or scl clones but we got Pathfinder Kingmaker, Solasta, etc. Exactly because big companioes are putting a lot of wowish mechanics on their games...
EDIT : Remember lawbreakers? Tried to praise hero shooter fans and arena shooter fans. The hero shooter fans stayed with OW and the arena shooter with old school Quake and LB? Failed miserably...
Its amazing how often people in this thread jump between "I trust Larian's word and this game will be awesome because they say so" and "You can't use what Larina said as an argument because what they said is only partially true."
I didn't say that. They didn't say what you think they said. They mentioned an ability to change skills/spells/classes/etc, not the lore aspects.
And then I offered an explanation for that.
Please try to understand these three things;
1: I'm not pro-MMO features. Personally I dislike MMOs and the few I have tried I have quickly stopped playing. I also am not a fan of SP games that borrow MMO-esque features.
2: I'm not arguing against you, merely trying to broaden your view on what and how a gaming market actually works. I don't work with gaming but I am a Business Controller with many years of Corporate Finance work, so I can at least partially understand the cost/benefit and payback calculations used by the industry to choose where to invest their money. Because you gotta understand, the big companies are not artists making art, they are capital investment companies trying to get as much leverage out of their cash as possible.
3: You repeat the same opinions a lot of times and keep saying things like "everyone knows that DA:O is better than DA2 or DA:I(more mmo like)" yet what everyone thinks or knows is not the same as corporate revenue. And money is always and will always be the main driving factor. Mind you, not the only factor, I said main factor.
Now I don't follow sales, it's completely uninteresting for me personally what other ppl like or how much money companies earn. I just googled a list of top grossing RPGs and found this:
This list only counts entries above 5 million
Pokémon Red/Green/Blue/Yellow - 59.52 million
Pokémon Gold/Silver/Crystal - 42.21 million
Pokémon Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald - 36.6 million
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim - 30 million[14]
Pokémon Diamond/Pearl/Platinum - 25.27 million
Pokémon Sun and Moon - 24.09 million
Diablo III - 20 million (30 million including Reaper of Souls)
Pokémon X and Y - 16.34 million
Pokémon Black and White - 15.64 million
World of Warcraft - 15 million subscribers
Final Fantasy VII - 13.11 million
Fallout 3 - 12.4 million
Fallout 4 - 12 million
Final Fantasy XIV - 10.9 million subscribers
Final Fantasy VI - 10.18 million (4.9 million excluding bundles)
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - 10 million
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion - 9.5 million
Final Fantasy X - 9.34 million
Final Fantasy VIII - 8.8 million
The Elder Scrolls Online - 8.5 million
Final Fantasy XV - 8.4 million
Final Fantasy XIII - 7.7 million
Secret of Mana - 7.5 million[15]
Super Mario RPG - 7.42 million
Final Fantasy X-2 - 7.24 million
Final Fantasy XII - 7.2 million
Dragon Quest III - 6.45 million
Dragon Quest V - 6.22 million
Dragon Quest IV - 5.97 million
Final Fantasy IX - 5.93 million
Kingdom Hearts - 5.9 million
Dragon Quest VIII - 5.81 million
Dragon Quest VII - 5.57 million
Dragon Quest IX - 5.35 million
Xeno - 5.27 million
Diablo II - 5.2 million[3]
Final Fantasy I - 5.19 million
Final Fantasy IV: The After Years - 5.06 million
Fallout: New Vegas - 5 million
I've bolded some interesting games, all of which are or clearly have MMO-esque attributes (I've included Fallout 3/4 in there but excluded Witcher 3. personally, for me Witcher 3 was too much MMOesque for my taste so I stopped playing it, but to each his own.
As you can see here on this list (but I can't say for sure the list is accurate), the big bucks seem to come from MMO games or MMOesque games. D3 which you never cease hating is a good example of a game that obviosluy despite it's many haters has earned Blizz a bucketload of cash. D4 will no doubt do the same once released.
So to summarize, no matter what the more artsy gamer enthusiasts think, games with MMO attributes make money, thus companies will continue to make them until other genres take over and start to earn more. When/if that will ever happen, I have no idea of course.
And lastly, don't take this as a personal attacks on your beliefs, feelings or opinions. All of this is just my neutral way of helping you see why the arguments you make are a bit unfounded at times.
Cheers.
The sad reality is that the real buckets are now made in the mobile gaming market where ads, loot boxes and monthly subscriptions rule supreme. The PC and console stores are nowadays more of an afterthought for many developers. Which can be blandly seen by Blizzard with their Diablo Immortal, Bethesda's Blades title or the staggering amount of new Pokemon phone games. *sigh*
And lol out of all the WoW competitors.. How many of them actually succeeded, before promptly shutting down after a short lived period?
About your list, i strongly disagree.
Skyrim is dumbed down, but has no mmoish mechanics like cooldowns(except on shouts) and stats linked towards armor, nor limitations that makes no sense like arrows disappearing after few meters. And skyrim has twice the amount of sales of ESO according to your list.
Same for Fallout 3/4. If you try to use an .308 rifle with low skill/attribute, you will have to deal with an drunk swayAnd Fallout New vegas is on that list, Pokemon who is on top of your list doesn't have this mmoish mechanics. Fallout New Vegas with MMOIsh mechanics will have an anti materiel rifle and an anti materiel rifle with another skin who despite using the same ammo, increases your muscle mass by 50kg, deals 7662638746% more damage, increases your IQ by 27 points and the projectile magically disappears after 15m. That is how gearing and attributes works on most wow clones.
In fact, there are no cooldown and gear determining char attributes in your list form the position 1 to 6. And the 7th most sold game in your list have the second expansion canceled. And read about what Blizzard executives think about D3
But the point is. I see only WoW there, no WoW clone even reached 10% of what WoW reached. And is an waste of time to aim on WoW audience because
This is why souls clones got success, diablo clones got success but wow clones will never succeed.
edit : how Dark Souls is not on that list??? I mean, only Dark Souls Prepare to Die, an awful console port, has 5 mi steam PC users > https://steamspy.com/app/211420 I an sure that with console sales, DkS 1 would have at least 20 mi copies sold.
Even ESO who have an amazing brand had to cut the "sub fee" in order to sell an tiny fraction of what Skyrim sold... And talking about D&D products. What product adapted the mmoish mechanics and succeed? 4e? SCL? Neverwinter mmo? Dungeons & Dragons Online?
Not true. " The minimum length of time that the player needs to wait after using an ability before they can use it again. This concept was first introduced by the text MUD Avalon: The Legend Lives." source > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms
MUDs was very similar to mmo. And mmos tends to put CDs, even when their SP counterparts has no CD. NWN 1/2 vs Neverwinter mmo, Kotor 1/Kotor 2 vs swtor...
Anyway, he said that even modern fallouts has mmo stuff and i disagree. If everyone in the world has the same skills and attributes and the unique way to increase your repairing skills and inteligence is by finding an power armor, that will not be used to protect you but to increase your repair skills and if instead of ammo like .50 BMG incendiary/explosive being rare and heavy(hc), being just skills on cooldown and every fight was press "tab", them spam the same explosive -> incendiary -> ap -> etc rotation, and be sure to not be at more than 15m from your target due an range limitation that makes no sense, then it will be an MMO-like experience.
The unique fallout who have very mmoish gear progression(but no cooldown) is fallout 76...