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BG3: Yay or Nay?

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  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 8,406
    Yay!
    LARP RP can be done without numbers, but in general when we are talking about cRPG's, "A role-playing video game (commonly referred to as simply a role-playing game or an RPG as well as a computer role-playing game or a CRPG) is a video game genre where the player controls the actions of a character (and/or several party members) immersed in some well-defined world. Many role-playing video games have origins in tabletop role-playing games[1] (including Dungeons & Dragons) and use much of the same terminology, settings and game mechanics. Other major similarities with pen-and-paper games include developed story-telling and narrative elements, player character development, complexity, as well as replayability and immersion. <...>" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game

    Okay, that's not roleplaying. That's just numbercrunching. The stats are arguably one of the least important things in terms of actual roleplay.

    Also, I wasn't talking about LARP.
    Most mmos lack many things.
    • No similarity to pnp(never saw CDs in a pnp rpg nor "you don't roll stats, your char iq is determined by their boots and everyone in my world is a clone, everyone has 10 STR, 10 DEX, 10 INT...")
    • I don't see immersion in his mechanics
    • There are no story telling or narrative elements, is just farming the same monster/dungeon to get more numbers on your class level and on your gear.
    • No complexity.
    • No decision making
    • No character building

    Ironically, i see more RPG elements mentioned on wikipedia on survival games and even on strategy games such as HoMM3 than on WoW for eg. https://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2010/03/what-is-crpg.html

    Cooldowns are a thing that make more sense in real time environments vs. turn-based environments. D&D doesn't (mostly) have cooldowns, but it does have uses per day, which falls into exactly the same role for exactly the same purpose.

    Many RPGs don't have you roll for stats. Pillars of Eternity, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Bloodlines, Neverwinter Nights, the Witcher games, Arcanum, etc. in CRPGs. Tabletop RPGs take this even further in games like GURPS, Hero System, Fate, various incarnations of the Storyteller System, Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Mechwarrior, Amber Diceless and its descendants, Last Unicorn Games' Star Trek, West End Games' Star Wars, and so on. The list is practically endless.

    Everyone being a clone isn't really relevant, as everyone isn't a clone. That is to say, this is only a concern if you insist on thinking about it all the time. This isn't far off from tabletop D&D, although there's somewhat more variation if you choose to use random die rolls instead of point build to make your characters.

    Immersion is subjective. If you don't find MMOs immersive, then that's not necessarily the game's problem. I've found multiple MMOs to be immersive.

    I don't think I've ever played an MMO that didn't have story telling and narrative elements. That farming was a part of the game, but by far not the only part. When it comes to WoW, I guess you don't know anything about Crusader Bridenbrad, Morgan Ladimore, Pamela's doll, the Defias Brotherhood, the struggle between Thorim and Loken, Thrall reconnecting with the orcs on Draenor's remains. The question isn't whether there's a story in any given MMO, it's how many in total. And often, it's quite a lot.

    "No complexity" is not even wrong. The mechanics are frequently more complex than any PnP game, but they're also more accessible, making it easier for players to make informed decisions.

    "No decision making" is also not true, although this is less frequent than in single player CRPGs. The addition of City of Heroes: Going Rogue provided numerous decision points for characters, allowing heroes to become villains and vice versa.

    "No character building" isn't true. Character progression is generally one of the biggest parts of any MMO, although it is true that it's difficult to provide more than a few mechanically ideal progression paths. Unfortunately, this is an RPG problem and not an MMO problem.

    Which MMOs have you played? And when did you play them?

    With the new dawn of Classic WoW lately, you can see just how much the small stories spread throughout the world meant. I believe alot of it was almost accidental, and people may not take it too seriously, but the lore of the Warcraft Universe at this point is among the most expansive in all of fantasy, and that is almost solely BECAUSE the World of Warcraft specifically forced them to create metric tons of lore for quests around each distinct zone in the game. Every zone has it's own side stories to tell as well as it's own part in the larger narrative. I'll never forget the moment I walked into a random hut in Highmountain at the beginning of Legion and watched a human groggily walk away from a Tauren couple still sleeping inside and immediately coming to the realization that, yes, he had gotten drunk and had a threesome with them the night before. It doesn't have the same effect on later times through the zone, but there is so much littered throughout the world they have built for the universe that it has become staggering, whether you view it as a Saturday morning cartoon version of fantasy or take it more seriously. At this point, the only sets of mythos that can top it in sheer scope are probably Tolkien and Star Wars.

    BelleSorciere
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 721
    Yay!
    kanisatha wrote: »

    This epiphany significantly changes my prospective perspective on BG3!

    Glad you may be coming around. This is my perspective in a lot of ways as well. I'm definitely a bigger fan of the aesthetics and setting of the IE games or even the Pillars games over OS. However, I think OS has some supreme good gameplay, which is why I think this partnering has a lot of potential.

    JuliusBorisov
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,897
    edited September 2019
    Nay!
    Cooldowns are a thing that make more sense in real time environments vs. turn-based environments. D&D doesn't (mostly) have cooldowns, but it does have uses per day, which falls into exactly the same role for exactly the same purpose.

    No, are completely different. Do you really think that running out of explosive .50 BMG ammo in FNV is the same of having an unlimited supply of explosive ammo and only being able to magically teleport one on the anti materiel rifle chamber once per <<insert arbitrary amount of>> seconds??? Sorry but both are not the same mechanic and not fulfill the same role.

    Ran out of crafted molotovs in a survival games makes sense. Have an "molotov" skill that can be used once per minute makes no sense. Also, in NWN/IWD/BG(Real time games), i can throw 6 time stops in a row as a sorcerer.
    Many RPGs don't have you roll for stats.

    The stats on tabletop game is generally what masters wanna. If they wanna an "pick system" or to roll, is up to the DM.
    Everyone being a clone isn't really relevant, as everyone isn't a clone. That is to say, this is only a concern if you insist on thinking about it all the time. This isn't far off from tabletop D&D, although there's somewhat more variation if you choose to use random die rolls instead of point build to make your characters.

    Not relevant? Everyone being an clone = no character mechanical building. Your character is just the clone nº654864.

    Even the honest game trailers mocked D3(very mmoish) for not having an basic form of character building
    Immersion is subjective. If you don't find MMOs immersive, then that's not necessarily the game's problem. I've found multiple MMOs to be immersive.

    If i reading an novel where every necromancer has exactly the same IQ and the master necromancer is only more powerful because he found an boot and gloves that increases his intelligence, i would never call this novel immersive. And this is what happens with most mmos... Mainly post wow mmos.
    I don't think I've ever played an MMO that didn't have story telling and narrative elements. That farming was a part of the game, but by far not the only part. When it comes to WoW, I guess you don't know anything about Crusader Bridenbrad, Morgan Ladimore, Pamela's doll, the Defias Brotherhood, the struggle between Thorim and Loken, Thrall reconnecting with the orcs on Draenor's remains. The question isn't whether there's a story in any given MMO, it's how many in total. And often, it's quite a lot.

    The problem is that on mmos, generally there are a great dissociation of the lore and the game. This can happens in SP games too, like "you can revive companions, as longs they din't died in a cutscene" or Amon Jerro who in cutscenes is far more powerful than in your party on NWN2 due artificially nerfing his class(can be solved via modding), i love NWN2, but the OC story is very dissociated than the game.

    One game that did it right? Dark Souls. An random ring says that an boss is blind? You can use it in your favor. I only got MLGS thanks to this information...
    "No complexity" is not even wrong. The mechanics are frequently more complex than any PnP game, but they're also more accessible, making it easier for players to make informed decisions.

    No, the unique complexity on a mmo is figure out how to maximize your "rotation dps" and where to farm the best gear. Is just it.

    "No decision making" is also not true, although this is less frequent than in single player CRPGs. The addition of City of Heroes: Going Rogue provided numerous decision points for characters, allowing heroes to become villains and vice versa.

    Compare being an vampire in any elder scrolls game, even the most dumbed down(skyrim) with on ESO, be an vampire in ESO has almost no downsides.. You can decide any thing that you want as longs is maximizing your rotation DPS so you can be useful on raids...

    "No character building" isn't true. Character progression is generally one of the biggest parts of any MMO, although it is true that it's difficult to provide more than a few mechanically ideal progression paths. Unfortunately, this is an RPG problem and not an MMO problem.

    Big part? Even you recognize that most characters are clones in mmos. Most mmos are Barbie dressing games in therms of character customization.

    Which MMOs have you played? And when did you play them?

    Tried classic wow some time ago(can't say how due forum rules), liked some questing, but found extremely boring and stopped arrond lv 50 since i realized that every other warlock was an clone of myself and that i was spamming the same rotation ad infinitum to farm more XP.

    Then reached level cap on Age of Conan some years ago. Liked the questing until the lv cap, but after the lv cap as a necromancer(amazingly is the unique mmo with decent necromancy - video bellow), stopped due the boring sameness "spamming the same rotation for 20 minutes against an boss to farm gear", tried the demonologist, but demonologists despite having an cool succubus and cool skills are too gear dependent for my taste... The game included an alternative advancement system to make the end game less boring, but even AoC din't lasted much time. I was wathing netflix while press the same keys over and over during raids... Fells more like an boring work than a game. What i loved in AoC is the questing and the fact that there are no androgynous teenager, carnival like armor, etc. What i hated is the mmo stuff(cooldown for eg)

    Then DDO(Dungeons & Dragons Online), in nutshell, liked the D&D parts(stats, dungeons, skill checks, classes, etc) but hated the mmo part(cooldown, number inflation, gearing, etc), i have an level 16 warlock with 30 CHA, more than an Succubus. Tried sorcerer but hated due CDs, Warlock due the main spell being the Eldricht Blast that has no CD and most spells temporary debuffs or buffs, din't played in the same boring way. Tentacles is the unique skill that CDs brothers me that much(on nwn2 with warlock fixes mod, i can have an endless amount of chilling tentacles) and i din't picked the Wail of the Banshee due the ludicrous one minute CD. Mass charm looks better.

    Also tried neverwinter mmo, but couldn't play for more than a 3 hours. Yes, i who have more than 500 hours on NWN1(gold - gog + EE - Steam) and almost 200 h on NWN2 could't play for more than fey hours.

    Mu Online, they recommended me saying that is a mmo where armor works like armor(offers protection), stats matters and there are no CD. I liked a little, but nothing that amazing. Is a good game, but i rather play a SP game. Unfortunately Mu Legend is another wow clone. People recommended ultima online, but i don't see how to play. Sounds much better than any modern mmo by far.

    Dragon's Dogma online looks like it has no CD and plays like the SP game(IMO DD is a action game with light rpg elements but i love the game, just can't consider an RPG), an mmo version of it will be amazing, but is Japanese only...


    One thing that i noted. People who like Larian modern games tends to like mmo games too.

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,280
    Yay!
    kanisatha wrote: »
    Where did you read/hear the main thing Swen is excited about in terms of BG3 is the Stadia aspect of the game?
    Huh? I didn't say anything about hearing this somewhere. It is my personal conclusion based on my observations. I said when I watch Swen's interviews, I find him to be the most excited when he is discussing the game being on Stadia. In fact, so much so that I feel he sees the Stadia thing as THE most revolutionary part of his game.

    But, on reading a couple of those articles you linked, and ignoring the silly fanboism of the authors, I did have an epiphany about why I so dislike the D:OS games, at least in part. It is that I just utterly despise the setting, the world of those games. That, I think, is the starting point for my alienation from those games. I just can't stand that setting, and by extension then the characters of that world.

    By contrast, I absolutely LOVE the Forgotten Realms. I am an unabashed and unapologetic zealot when it comes to any and all things Forgotten Realms. :smiley: I've often mentioned in various threads that I own and have read almost all of the novels from that setting, and am an FR setting lore addict. So then this may be what makes a HUGE difference in me reacting differently to BG3 from how I have reacted to the D:OS games. But of course this depends entirely on the game representing the FR setting in a true and faithful way without D:OS-ifying the setting.

    This epiphany significantly changes my prospective perspective on BG3!

    I'm optimistic that the game will be lore-rich.

    I think Hasbro would love to make FR a staple among fantasy adventure settings. WotC is trying to tie this game in to their tabletop adventures, which is encouraging from the lore vantage. And I think they really do hope to make FR into something that will stand alongside Middle-earth, Westeros, and the Potterverse. Dollars to donuts the upcoming D&D movie will be set on the Sword Coast.

    JuliusBorisov
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,095
    Yay!
    jjstraka34 wrote: »

    With the new dawn of Classic WoW lately, you can see just how much the small stories spread throughout the world meant. I believe alot of it was almost accidental, and people may not take it too seriously, but the lore of the Warcraft Universe at this point is among the most expansive in all of fantasy, and that is almost solely BECAUSE the World of Warcraft specifically forced them to create metric tons of lore for quests around each distinct zone in the game. Every zone has it's own side stories to tell as well as it's own part in the larger narrative. I'll never forget the moment I walked into a random hut in Highmountain at the beginning of Legion and watched a human groggily walk away from a Tauren couple still sleeping inside and immediately coming to the realization that, yes, he had gotten drunk and had a threesome with them the night before. It doesn't have the same effect on later times through the zone, but there is so much littered throughout the world they have built for the universe that it has become staggering, whether you view it as a Saturday morning cartoon version of fantasy or take it more seriously. At this point, the only sets of mythos that can top it in sheer scope are probably Tolkien and Star Wars.

    Yeah, I picked a couple of stories from later expansions, but like Eastern Plaguelands? Had some good stories. And every zone has at least one story going on, plus the lore. And the quality may be variable but it's by no means universally bad.

    I'm just gobsmacked anyone could claim that WoW lacks story. Or that MMOs in general lack story. The reason I was so into City of Heroes and The Secret World is that both games had really good storylines. I was into WoW because it was taken the stories I was invested in from Warcraft II and III into an RPG format, and I can't really say that I've been so committed to hating an antagonist in any video game as I was committed to taking out Loken in the Storm Peaks during Wrath.

    I know I came across some heartbreaking bits in Legion, and I'd probably remember them better if I hadn't been locked out of my characters for two or three months because of some weird Dalaran login bug and given up midstory. I remember some very important to the cosmology beings dying or being corrupted or both, though.

    Obviously not everyone's going to be grabbed by every story but to claim there are none at all is completely inaccurate.

    ThacoBell
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,897
    edited September 2019
    Nay!
    Nobody is saying that wow or any mmo lacks story. Only that the story is extremely dissociated from the game. And it happens in SP games too. I like NWN2 but warlocks on cut-scenes are godlike, warlocks on pnp are fine and warlocks in the game are ridiculous weak. This is extremely inconsistent. Raise Dead works every time, EXCEPT when a death happens in a cut-scene. Why i can't (nwn2 OC spoiler)

    revive Shandra Jerro casting raise dead???? That makes no sense.

    And having an story doesn't correlate to an RPG. Mount & Blade is a sandbox RPG without any story. Dark Messiah of Might & Magic has an amazing story and is a action game.

  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,891
    LARP RP can be done without numbers, but in general when we are talking about cRPG's, "A role-playing video game (commonly referred to as simply a role-playing game or an RPG as well as a computer role-playing game or a CRPG) is a video game genre where the player controls the actions of a character (and/or several party members) immersed in some well-defined world. Many role-playing video games have origins in tabletop role-playing games[1] (including Dungeons & Dragons) and use much of the same terminology, settings and game mechanics. Other major similarities with pen-and-paper games include developed story-telling and narrative elements, player character development, complexity, as well as replayability and immersion. <...>" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game

    Okay, that's not roleplaying. That's just numbercrunching. The stats are arguably one of the least important things in terms of actual roleplay.

    Not at all. Quite the opposite, in fact. The numbers define the role you play.

  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 629
    scriver wrote: »
    LARP RP can be done without numbers, but in general when we are talking about cRPG's, "A role-playing video game (commonly referred to as simply a role-playing game or an RPG as well as a computer role-playing game or a CRPG) is a video game genre where the player controls the actions of a character (and/or several party members) immersed in some well-defined world. Many role-playing video games have origins in tabletop role-playing games[1] (including Dungeons & Dragons) and use much of the same terminology, settings and game mechanics. Other major similarities with pen-and-paper games include developed story-telling and narrative elements, player character development, complexity, as well as replayability and immersion. <...>" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game

    Okay, that's not roleplaying. That's just numbercrunching. The stats are arguably one of the least important things in terms of actual roleplay.

    Not at all. Quite the opposite, in fact. The numbers define the role you play.

    To an extent, yes, but the phenomenon of min-maxing demonstrates that numbers can also be meaningless. This isn't anybody's fault, it's just a consequence of the way cRPGs are built and the way in which they are infinitely inferior to PnP.

    Like, you can min-max a fighter so that INT and WIS are down to, say, 4, and outside the occasional WIS-related saving throw, this will have no consequences, although they should be devastating in terms of your ability to make decisions in the game.

  • kanisathakanisatha Member Posts: 853
    Nay!
    DinoDin wrote: »
    kanisatha wrote: »

    This epiphany significantly changes my prospective perspective on BG3!

    Glad you may be coming around. This is my perspective in a lot of ways as well. I'm definitely a bigger fan of the aesthetics and setting of the IE games or even the Pillars games over OS. However, I think OS has some supreme good gameplay, which is why I think this partnering has a lot of potential.
    Well I wouldn't go that far just yet. :wink: I'm still very much on the skeptical side, mainly because I can't help thinking they won't be able to resist the temptation of D:OS-ifying the game. And I still also continue to have serious concerns about some aspects of gameplay from the D:OS games and also about the quality and tone of the writing. This is where I hope they have hired enough new people who never worked on the D:OS games such as to bring fresh eyes and fresh thinking on the game-building side.

    DinoDin
  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 477
    Yay!
    Now we know why Larian do not gave more info, It is not that they do not want to, It´s because Mike Merle always rolls a natural one.




  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 978
    Yay!
    This is what happens when you let those filthy, untrustworthy Chaotics be in charge! ;)

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,897
    Nay!
    Zaxares wrote: »
    This is what happens when you let those filthy, untrustworthy Chaotics be in charge! ;)

    Chaos > Law.

    Seriously. The most interesting classes tends to be chaotic. I mean >
    Sorcerers > Wizards
    Barbarians > Fighters
    Druids > Clerics
    <...>

    And with races too >
    Demons > Devils
    Elves > Dwarf
    <...>

    I an not saying that every elf is chaotic and that there are no chaotic deities/clerics, but honestly there are an strong tendencies and is up to my personal taste. I really wish that Larian makes alingment matters a lot on BG3. Imagine being an Chaotic Good guy adventuring in nine hells...

    PS : One thing that i liked on ToEE is that your party members needs to have similar alignments. Having an good druid wanting to save feyfold and an LE warlock wanting to enslave feyfolk in the same party can't work...

  • LottiLotti Member Posts: 66
    Yay!
    I had the impression that WotC are no longer so fond of strict alignment rules, and I don't think Fleming Swen Vincke is very tight-arsed either, so I don't expect a very limiting alignment system in BG3.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,897
    edited September 2019
    Nay!
    Lotti wrote: »
    I had the impression that WotC are no longer so fond of strict alignment rules, and I don't think Fleming Swen Vincke is very tight-arsed either, so I don't expect a very limiting alignment system in BG3.

    i think that depends. An chaotic good warlock having an pact with an archdevil from nine hells would make no sense. Alignment can be used not as limitators, but as lore wise and narrative wise interesting mechanics.

  • LottiLotti Member Posts: 66
    Yay!
    Lotti wrote: »
    I had the impression that WotC are no longer so fond of strict alignment rules, and I don't think Fleming Swen Vincke is very tight-arsed either, so I don't expect a very limiting alignment system in BG3.

    i think that depends. An chaotic good warlock having an pact with an archdevil from nine hells would make no sense. Alignment can be used not as limitators, but as lore wise and narrative wise interesting mechanics.

    It wouldn't make D&D theological sense, but in human psychology everybody makes pacts with an enemy of the enemy and let the propagandists worry about the ideology.

    Role playing games are about people making up their own motivations, and limiting those motivations to a silly childish Sunday School concept of good and evil doesn't enhance the creativity of the players, just like Sunday School is not the best educational choice for an artist.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,897
    Nay!
    Lotti wrote: »
    Lotti wrote: »
    I had the impression that WotC are no longer so fond of strict alignment rules, and I don't think Fleming Swen Vincke is very tight-arsed either, so I don't expect a very limiting alignment system in BG3.

    i think that depends. An chaotic good warlock having an pact with an archdevil from nine hells would make no sense. Alignment can be used not as limitators, but as lore wise and narrative wise interesting mechanics.

    It wouldn't make D&D theological sense, but in human psychology everybody makes pacts with an enemy of the enemy and let the propagandists worry about the ideology.

    Role playing games are about people making up their own motivations, and limiting those motivations to a silly childish Sunday School concept of good and evil doesn't enhance the creativity of the players, just like Sunday School is not the best educational choice for an artist.

    Except that many summoning spells since 2e summons with an alignment affinity. And an devil would not teach the secrets of nine hells and "fuse" your soul with nine hells power without gaining anything in exchange. He will demand services, in this live or another. This if the chaotic good warlock could actually perform the ritual... If your character becomes an vampire, the own SRD 3e rules determines that sorcerers/wizards can only have bat/rats as familiar and clerics are restricted to certain domains....

    Good/Evil, Law/Chaos are not just concepts in D&D. They are actual forces.

    kanisatha
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,072
    Nay!
    Zaxares wrote: »
    This is what happens when you let those filthy, untrustworthy Chaotics be in charge! ;)

    Chaos > Law.

    Seriously. The most interesting classes tends to be chaotic. I mean >
    Sorcerers > Wizards
    Barbarians > Fighters
    Druids > Clerics
    <...>

    And with races too >
    Demons > Devils
    Elves > Dwarf
    <...>

    I an not saying that every elf is chaotic and that there are no chaotic deities/clerics, but honestly there are an strong tendencies and is up to my personal taste. I really wish that Larian makes alingment matters a lot on BG3. Imagine being an Chaotic Good guy adventuring in nine hells...

    PS : One thing that i liked on ToEE is that your party members needs to have similar alignments. Having an good druid wanting to save feyfold and an LE warlock wanting to enslave feyfolk in the same party can't work...

    See, here is where you are just wrong. All the ">" should be "<", except the ones for Druids and Clerics. But then Druids are not generally more chaotic than clerics, so it does not fit in at all.

    Sorcerers should never have been invented, barbarians suck (get some education, dude) and devils are so much better than Demons. Just look at Mephasm.

    BallpointMan
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,891
    It's not the barbarian's fault they can't read

    BallpointMan
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,618
    Yay!
    Literacy is overrated anyway. Might just as well multiclass the Barbarian into a Wilder who excels in Telepathy. Who needs books if you can read minds instead?

    Sjerrie
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,095
    Yay!
    scriver wrote: »
    LARP RP can be done without numbers, but in general when we are talking about cRPG's, "A role-playing video game (commonly referred to as simply a role-playing game or an RPG as well as a computer role-playing game or a CRPG) is a video game genre where the player controls the actions of a character (and/or several party members) immersed in some well-defined world. Many role-playing video games have origins in tabletop role-playing games[1] (including Dungeons & Dragons) and use much of the same terminology, settings and game mechanics. Other major similarities with pen-and-paper games include developed story-telling and narrative elements, player character development, complexity, as well as replayability and immersion. <...>" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game

    Okay, that's not roleplaying. That's just numbercrunching. The stats are arguably one of the least important things in terms of actual roleplay.

    Not at all. Quite the opposite, in fact. The numbers define the role you play.

    They facilitate mechanics, but roleplay is improv acting. CRPGs by necessity have limited roleplay that doesn't apply to tabletop for technical reasons but rolling dice whether analog or digital isn't roleplay. Putting "Cleric" on your character sheet isn't roleplay, nor is picking three instances of Bless for first level spells.

    A significant part of a CRPG is its dialogue system, and if it doesn't account for all of the most likely playstyles players can experience that as limiting their choices. Unfortunately, some players want choices that would never have been written and coded anyway, but that's the nature of the beast. In MMORPGs, roleplay comes mostly from interactions with other players, who are also roleplaying, although some MMOs do more to facilitate roleplay and choices like SW:TOR and The Secret World.

    ThacoBell
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,897
    Nay!
    scriver wrote: »
    LARP RP can be done without numbers, but in general when we are talking about cRPG's, "A role-playing video game (commonly referred to as simply a role-playing game or an RPG as well as a computer role-playing game or a CRPG) is a video game genre where the player controls the actions of a character (and/or several party members) immersed in some well-defined world. Many role-playing video games have origins in tabletop role-playing games[1] (including Dungeons & Dragons) and use much of the same terminology, settings and game mechanics. Other major similarities with pen-and-paper games include developed story-telling and narrative elements, player character development, complexity, as well as replayability and immersion. <...>" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game

    Okay, that's not roleplaying. That's just numbercrunching. The stats are arguably one of the least important things in terms of actual roleplay.

    Not at all. Quite the opposite, in fact. The numbers define the role you play.

    They facilitate mechanics, but roleplay is improv acting. CRPGs by necessity have limited roleplay that doesn't apply to tabletop for technical reasons but rolling dice whether analog or digital isn't roleplay. Putting "Cleric" on your character sheet isn't roleplay, nor is picking three instances of Bless for first level spells.

    A significant part of a CRPG is its dialogue system, and if it doesn't account for all of the most likely playstyles players can experience that as limiting their choices. Unfortunately, some players want choices that would never have been written and coded anyway, but that's the nature of the beast. In MMORPGs, roleplay comes mostly from interactions with other players, who are also roleplaying, although some MMOs do more to facilitate roleplay and choices like SW:TOR and The Secret World.

    No cRPG offers the same liberty of PnP. But there are an HUGE difference between an Barbie Dressing game where every necromancer is a clone like D3 to an in depth pnp adaptation like Pathfinder Kingmaker.

    About "putting cleric...", choosing an cleric of an deity "X" is an character making decision(mechanical), acting like an follower of the deity "X" is an narrative decision making("X"), like Cannot be Tammed said, visual novels have dialog choices but aren't RPG's, RPG's needs both... That said, most mmos has less RPG elements than survival games.

    And modding can increase a lot of variety in viable builds. If beamdog had unhardcode certain things that people asked on nwn1, i an sure that you would be able to play as an half dragon vampire dread necromancer with an gargoyle familiar...

    About the "clone" problem of mmos, there are few exceptions. On D&DO, i never meet an single warlock who is like my warlock. Unfortnetly the game has some "mmo bs" like cooldowns and ludicrous Zimbabwe like number inflation. I tried to play the game as a sorcerer but become bored pretty quickly. When i purchased warlock thanks to an recommendation and started to play like it was an FPS, cooldowns turned an much smaller problem. Reached lv 19 today and wanna see how much inflation will be on epic levels
    olKi3D2.jpg

  • SidoniusSidonius Member Posts: 24
    edited October 2019
    Nay!
    I voted nay. I'm looking forward to Baldur's Gate III as a new DnD adventure, but expecting it to be any kind of follow-up to the original is unrealistic.

    I wish Larian would have struck out in a new direction. The choice to set the game in the city of Baldur's Gate itself reinforces this opinion. With all the unexplored regions of Faerun itself, let alone the entirety of Toril, they've decided that a location which featured in only two chapters, out of a 17, is supposed to be meaningful? It strikes me as a complete misunderstanding of the source material.

    The whole thing seems like a nostalgia cash-in, as have Obsidian's recent titles, but what else is there to choose from?

    Post edited by Sidonius on
    sarevok57
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,646
    Nay!
    Obsidian's stuff nods to nostalgia, but they are definitely more than just cash ins. PoE's world and lore was obviously crafted with love, and Tyrrany's setting doesn't really have anything like it in contemporary titles.

    leeux
  • SidoniusSidonius Member Posts: 24
    edited October 2019
    Nay!
    Fair enough.

    Josh Sawyer and company did design Icewind Dale, after all, so their claim to the Infinity Engine is stronger than most.

    Still, it bothers me that all they had to do to raise $2,000,000 was to drop the word "Infinity." That, and the little things, such as: why are Pillars of Eternity's character selection circles green? Why is the opening narration in 2nd person? In Baldur's Gate, 2nd person was use to recreate the feeling of a Dungeon Master telling the story, but Pillars of Eternity wasn't an adaptation of a pen and paper game.

    For all its other problems, Troika's The Temple of Elemental Evil created a UI and presentation that evoked the Infinity Engine but never crossed into outright plagiarism. Temple *felt* like Temple. The same could be said for how Baldur's Gate was inspired by, but never claimed to be the successor to, SSI's Gold Box games.

    There's a cynicism in the current generation of RPGs. I feel less like we're being catered to and more like we're being tossed scraps of meat. And, desperately starving, we accept it.

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,045
    edited October 2019
    Yay!
    Sidonius wrote: »

    There's a cynicism in the current generation of RPGs. I feel less like we're being catered to and more like we're being tossed scraps of meat. And, desperately starving, we accept it.

    I would rather say, there's a cynicism in the current generation of RPG players making it quite impossible to create games without some group getting ticked off when it doesn't 100% cater to their feelings.

    PoE, PoE2 are games that are very, very obviously the love childs from thousands of hours of work, dedication and passion. Some nods to old games are there for the gamers pleasure and fun, that's all.

    kanisathaThacoBell
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,618
    edited October 2019
    Yay!
    I'd say it's more likely the case of a even mix from both. It's true that there are many game developers out there which tried to make "spiritual successors" or "a return to older times", hoping to invoke the nostalgia of oldtimer gamers. Not only in the case of isometric CRPG's either. Some succeeded archieving that... while others argueably failed. Realms of Arkania HD being part of the latter category.

    I'm of the mind that it's healthier to do something completely different instead of betting all chips on a nebelous feeling like nostalgia. More contrast between other studios of the same gaming genre that way. And customers won't raise the "that's-not-how-I-remembered-it" flag.

    ThacoBell
  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,148
    Yay!
    Man. Every time I think this board is dead, it comes back.

  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 721
    Yay!
    Sidonius wrote: »
    Fair enough.

    Josh Sawyer and company did design Icewind Dale, after all, so their claim to the Infinity Engine is stronger than most.

    Still, it bothers me that all they had to do to raise $2,000,000 was to drop the word "Infinity." That, and the little things, such as: why are Pillars of Eternity's character selection circles green? Why is the opening narration in 2nd person? In Baldur's Gate, 2nd person was use to recreate the feeling of a Dungeon Master telling the story, but Pillars of Eternity wasn't an adaptation of a pen and paper game.

    For all its other problems, Troika's The Temple of Elemental Evil created a UI and presentation that evoked the Infinity Engine but never crossed into outright plagiarism. Temple *felt* like Temple. The same could be said for how Baldur's Gate was inspired by, but never claimed to be the successor to, SSI's Gold Box games.

    There's a cynicism in the current generation of RPGs. I feel less like we're being catered to and more like we're being tossed scraps of meat. And, desperately starving, we accept it.

    I disagree pretty strongly with this, and agree with Kamigoroshi below. I think there's something of a survivor bias going on here, where all the forgettable games of the 1990s and 2000s don't get mentioned. And instead those eras are remembered as somehow only containing the great games that stood the test of time.

    I don't think the gaming industry is any more cynical today than it ever was. And I think players on here have a very disproportionate sense of how common their tastes are in the market. But ultimately it doesn't matter. Right now, with publishing outlets like Steam, GOG, and even more coming out, indie developers are actually able to take a lot more risks and create a lot more niche game types and be sustainable. I'm not sure that there was actually a time where there were as many decent quality CRPG's released within the same few years as right now -- PoE's and a several other Obsidian titles, Pathfinder, OS, Wasteland 2, Tides and more I'm not even aware of. Maybe some of these games don't quite meet folks' complete standards, and maybe none quite surpass the total experience of BG but man, there's a wealth of options out there that are trying to appeal to the hardcore classic CRPG style, and doing so in a competent, not cynical way.

    Skatan
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