I think that's a slippery way of arguing that cooldowns are an MMO mechanic. MUD's were forebears of lots of modern genres. Again, there are SP RPG's with cooldowns. MMO's without them. It's not an MMO mechanic.
But importantly, I've still yet to see an argument on the actual merits of why cooldowns are bad. As I said, plenty of titles have them, including universally praised titles. I don't want to see them in BG3 (and there's no evidence to suggest they will be in it). But they work just fine as a gameplay mechanic in OS.
I think that's a slippery way of arguing that cooldowns are an MMO mechanic. MUD's were forebears of lots of modern genres. Again, there are SP RPG's with cooldowns. MMO's without them. It's not an MMO mechanic.
But importantly, I've still yet to see an argument on the actual merits of why cooldowns are bad. As I said, plenty of titles have them, including universally praised titles. I don't want to see them in BG3 (and there's no evidence to suggest they will be in it). But they work just fine as a gameplay mechanic in OS.
When i refer to mmo, i an saying "wow clone", sure, you can find some mmos(most pre wow) without CD and where armor works like armor, skills like skills and attributes like attributes, i heard good things about Ultima Online, but never played. Mu Online, you are extremely vulnerable without armor and there are attribute investment. Bu mu legends(post wow) is an wow clone.
As for OS, i din't liked the combat on DOS2 because found much more that i was playing an gimmicky puzzle game in some encounters and spamming the same rotation, while on BG, i have the impression that i was fighting epic creatures. CDs is one of many mechanics that destroys my immersion. An combat where you never miss, armor never deflect blows, but needs to impale the enemy 50 times in the head is awful too. I din't liked Tyranny by this mechanics.
And my fear is that the last Larian game who was very old school on his mechanics was Divine Divinity.
edit : Is not related to rpgs, but compare the tank combat of world of tanks with warthunder. WT is much better...
I feel like some people perhaps haven't played the BG games in awhile and just forget what they were like? I'm playing a BG2 run right now, and the monsters are extremely bullet spongey. Not playing on Legacy of Bhaal difficulty either.
I mean, you're regularly encountering monsters with triple digit hit point pools and maybe doing 10-20 damage per hit with your fighters. I'm also playing an OS1 run. While it is TB vs RT, it doesn't feel like the monsters are more bullet-spongey in either game.
And the argument that you don't miss is, as you have been told several times by several people, false. You should consider ceasing with the misinformation.
I feel like some people perhaps haven't played the BG games in awhile and just forget what they were like? I'm playing a BG2 run right now, and the monsters are extremely bullet spongey. Not playing on Legacy of Bhaal difficulty either..
An monster with 120 hp(a lot) vs an fighter with 15 damage on average dealing 3 hits per turn if he won't miss, will deal 45 damage / turn or kill the monster in 3 turns or 18 seconds.
Here is i vs an BOSS in less than a minute and note that i only started to attack at 0:34, so considering only when i attacked him, i soloed an dragon boss in 30 seconds.
But yes, RtWP VS Turn based. An better comparation would be ToEE and on ToEE, an single fireball can end some encounters... On Pool of radiance 2(turn based), i din't saw the same problem that i had with dos2.
I think that's a slippery way of arguing that cooldowns are an MMO mechanic. MUD's were forebears of lots of modern genres. Again, there are SP RPG's with cooldowns. MMO's without them. It's not an MMO mechanic.
But importantly, I've still yet to see an argument on the actual merits of why cooldowns are bad. As I said, plenty of titles have them, including universally praised titles. I don't want to see them in BG3 (and there's no evidence to suggest they will be in it). But they work just fine as a gameplay mechanic in OS.
Cooldowns are not an exclusive MMO mechanic. That's true. Kingdoms of Amalur being one example of this (although one could argue that game was in fact an offline MMO format for single players). The cooldown mechanic in and of itself isn't any more good or bad than other gaming mechanics. It is *how* they are often utilized by developers that things go south real fast.
The main factor of so many MMO's using the cooldown mechanic is quite simple: it is to sell the gamer "convenience" in the form of ingame shop items. Said shop items would either shorten the waiting times or completely ignore the cooldown altogether, All in exchange of the players real money. Practices like that haven't exactly helped cooldowns to get popular by the player base.
It's very damaging in the long-run though... Biowares brand means nothing anymore.. They don't have the credibility they used to and most of the old employees have left. They managed to tank all of their franchises....
And lol out of all the WoW competitors.. How many of them actually succeeded, before promptly shutting down after a short lived period?
I think that's a slippery way of arguing that cooldowns are an MMO mechanic. MUD's were forebears of lots of modern genres. Again, there are SP RPG's with cooldowns. MMO's without them. It's not an MMO mechanic.
But importantly, I've still yet to see an argument on the actual merits of why cooldowns are bad. As I said, plenty of titles have them, including universally praised titles. I don't want to see them in BG3 (and there's no evidence to suggest they will be in it). But they work just fine as a gameplay mechanic in OS.
Cooldowns are not an exclusive MMO mechanic. That's true. Kingdoms of Amalur being one example of this (although one could argue that game was in fact an offline MMO format for single players). The cooldown mechanic in and of itself isn't any more good or bad than other gaming mechanics. It is *how* they are often utilized by developers that things go south real fast.
The main factor of so many MMO's using the cooldown mechanic is quite simple: it is to sell the gamer "convenience" in the form of ingame shop items. Said shop items would either shorten the waiting times or completely ignore the cooldown altogether, All in exchange of the players real money. Practices like that haven't exactly helped cooldowns to get popular by the player base.
Just speaking on the OS games, I think they made them work. Since, sort of like here, they used the cooldown mechanic as a way to buff your character. So spell cooldowns drop as you increase certain stats. It gets even deeper because the game has a lot charge items or items that will grant you a skill outside of your build, but those will have long cooldowns, which, again, you can shorten if you invest points in those skills. It adds a great deal to the leveling system, imo.
Correct me if i an wrong, but the unique Larian game without CD and puzzle gimmicky combat is Divine Divinity. right?
I don't think that asking for attributes to be attributes(measure char capabilities), armor be armor(deflect blows) and the combat an combat, not an spreedsheet same rotation spam is an hard demand...
Deflecting a blow was in practice not the primary function of many types of armour. Many armour types were to prevent piercing the wearer with sharp weapons or to cushion a blow.
Of course D&D combat mechanics are about purely fictional combat types, where any resemblance of the real world is purely accidental.
The previous Larian games were not restrained by D&D idiocy, so it is to be expected that they used completely different, possibly also nonsensical, mechanics.
But I expect that they will use the D&D shit as a basis for their BG3, which is not an a priory recommendation for me, by the way.
Deflecting a blow was in practice not the primary function of many types of armour. Many armour types were to prevent piercing the wearer with sharp weapons or to cushion a blow.
Of course D&D combat mechanics are about purely fictional combat types, where any resemblance of the real world is purely accidental.
The previous Larian games were not restrained by D&D idiocy, so it is to be expected that they used completely different, possibly also nonsensical, mechanics.
But I expect that they will use the D&D shit as a basis for their BG3, which is not an a priory recommendation for me, by the way.
Even piercing attacks, they have an design to make for eg an javelin to be "deflected" away. See most tower shields design... And D&D was based on medieval combat games. In many games, armor works in a different way. Absorbs % damage, doesn't matter if is an knife or an warhammer. On AD&D armor often have different values against blunt, piercing or slashing. Plate armor is far more effective against slashing, makes sense that an mace is an better weapon to use against plate armor than an sword.
Oh, D&D does have some effects that accidentally work in the right direction.
You probably also think that Hitpoints are a good model to simulate mediaeval fighting?
I think it's obvious that none of the combat mechanics make sense in terms of realistically simulating medieval combat. Even if we set aside all the fantasy elements, one "hit" with a long sword and you're probably done.
But these are games. Not simulators. Nor role playing experiences, but games first and foremost. And the D&D systems have shown a strong resilience for creating quality games.
I think it's obvious that none of the combat mechanics make sense in terms of realistically simulating medieval combat. Even if we set aside all the fantasy elements, one "hit" with a long sword and you're probably done.
But these are games. Not simulators. Nor role playing experiences, but games first and foremost. And the D&D systems have shown a strong resilience for creating quality games.
An RPG doesn't need to be an simulator, needs to be at least immersive as "novels" and have internal consistency, you can't say that for eg, that someone will take cold damage while walking on city of brass, that vampires will take sun damage, etc.
As for one hit, depends when hit, if barely scratched you, or if the damage was done on a vital area, keep in mind that despite the overrepresentation of swords on fantasy, swords was awful against armored enemies or larger creatures and that is much more likely that you will face enemies with polearms. And that fifty cent survived 9 shots. There are also people who survived being stabbed many times. Adolf Galland in WW2 survived an shot from an 20mm cannon and managed to land with his Me 262 literally in flames.
Oh, D&D does have some effects that accidentally work in the right direction.
You probably also think that Hitpoints are a good model to simulate mediaeval fighting?
Depends a lot. hit points are inflated on D&D to make fights more engaging and the PC's less vulnerable. Mainly at higher levels.
Save with "saves" mechanic(that larian will probably "modernize" too)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vufj0-1AGFU
My point is not that D&D is a realistic simulator. Is just that is immersive as an "novel", that you can create an character like Aragorn and have an similar experience playing D&D than reading an book with Aragorn as the main character. With games with """modern mechanics""" where attributes doesn't represent anything lore wise or mechanic wise in relation to Aragorn, with cooldowns and other things, you can't do that.
I absolutely agree that expecting hardcore realism is just not realistic, and that these are games first and foremost and as such should first be about whether they're fun to play versus being a tedious chore to play. I also agree with the point about immersion, though. A good RPG should be about drawing the player into and keeping them engaged in the game's world and lore and characters and so on.
Where I disagree is that I just don't see the D&D system as being the "ultimate" or the "be-all-end-all" system for cRPGs, at least not anymore. There used to be a time (for me) when a cRPG could be the "best" only if it was based on (3.5e) D&D, and all others were "lesser." But all those years of WotC sitting on their IP and not allowing any games to be made with it has weened me off that mentality, and now I see D&D mechanics, including 5e, as being at most just ok and nowhere near "best." In many ways D&D systems are quite superficial and simplistic, and I especially hate that they are still so heavily based on die rolls/chance.
Oh, D&D does have some effects that accidentally work in the right direction.
You probably also think that Hitpoints are a good model to simulate mediaeval fighting?
Well considering that hitpoints are an abstraction to simulate glancing blows and grazes, with only the hit that downs your character being an actual full contact blow, yes. Its a good abstraction that doesn't bog down play with more rolls and charts.
Where I disagree is that I just don't see the D&D system as being the "ultimate" or the "be-all-end-all" system for cRPGs, at least not anymore. There used to be a time (for me) when a cRPG could be the "best" only if it was based on (3.5e) D&D, and all others were "lesser." But all those years of WotC sitting on their IP and not allowing any games to be made with it has weened me off that mentality,<...>.
D&D is a extremely versatile "framework", even Kotor(star wars) is very similar to 3.5e. You can even adapt things from many fiction works into to D&D.
Eg? Petrification from White Witch on Narnia, it can insta petrificate low level creatures and force medium/high level creatures to do an FORT save or be prettified permanently. working little differently than flesh to stone spell(no save from low lv on my suggestion)
On wowclones, it will be an temporary debuff.
Other example? You can create an spell or spell like ability like Naruto's Razen Shuriken, since Naruto could only use it initially 2x/day, you can say that when learned, it can be used 2x/day and at high levels 3/4x/day and that deals an massive damage like 2d6/level and d4/level CON damage on the target and dealing d2 CON damage to the "caster", because the jutso on anime has his drawbacks and injured Naruto's hands.
In an wow clone, will be just an skill in cooldown that deals massive damage and magically disappear after flying 15m, being unable to hit an colossus at 16m...
This is why play KOTOR is much more immersive than play SWTOR. D&D in this aspect offers an good immersion and can replicate with certain consistency(not perfect simulation) most things that can happens in fiction or IRL. Is not perfect. For eg, Plate armor on BG has only 10% more chance to deflect an slashing compared to an blunt attack, but at least the fact that slashing is much weaker against plate is represented in the game.
I think that's a slippery way of arguing that cooldowns are an MMO mechanic. MUD's were forebears of lots of modern genres. Again, there are SP RPG's with cooldowns. MMO's without them. It's not an MMO mechanic.
But importantly, I've still yet to see an argument on the actual merits of why cooldowns are bad. As I said, plenty of titles have them, including universally praised titles. I don't want to see them in BG3 (and there's no evidence to suggest they will be in it). But they work just fine as a gameplay mechanic in OS.
Cooldowns are not an exclusive MMO mechanic. That's true. Kingdoms of Amalur being one example of this (although one could argue that game was in fact an offline MMO format for single players). The cooldown mechanic in and of itself isn't any more good or bad than other gaming mechanics. It is *how* they are often utilized by developers that things go south real fast.
The main factor of so many MMO's using the cooldown mechanic is quite simple: it is to sell the gamer "convenience" in the form of ingame shop items. Said shop items would either shorten the waiting times or completely ignore the cooldown altogether, All in exchange of the players real money. Practices like that haven't exactly helped cooldowns to get popular by the player base.
These are two entirely different kinds of cooldowns. Real money transactions to shorten cooldowns so you can open lootboxes faster or play longer are not the same thing as combat abilities given cooldowns to limit how frequently they're used in a combat. The second kind has been used for a long time in video games. WoW's cooldowns have never been a hardship, nor did WoW pioneer the mechanic.
Also, they're not inherently bad. Compare combat in City of Heroes to Champions Online. The former has cooldowns and attack chains. The latter largely does not have cooldowns, and you end up spamming your best attack.
I think that's a slippery way of arguing that cooldowns are an MMO mechanic. MUD's were forebears of lots of modern genres. Again, there are SP RPG's with cooldowns. MMO's without them. It's not an MMO mechanic.
But importantly, I've still yet to see an argument on the actual merits of why cooldowns are bad. As I said, plenty of titles have them, including universally praised titles. I don't want to see them in BG3 (and there's no evidence to suggest they will be in it). But they work just fine as a gameplay mechanic in OS.
Cooldowns are not an exclusive MMO mechanic. That's true. Kingdoms of Amalur being one example of this (although one could argue that game was in fact an offline MMO format for single players). The cooldown mechanic in and of itself isn't any more good or bad than other gaming mechanics. It is *how* they are often utilized by developers that things go south real fast.
The main factor of so many MMO's using the cooldown mechanic is quite simple: it is to sell the gamer "convenience" in the form of ingame shop items. Said shop items would either shorten the waiting times or completely ignore the cooldown altogether, All in exchange of the players real money. Practices like that haven't exactly helped cooldowns to get popular by the player base.
These are two entirely different kinds of cooldowns. Real money transactions to shorten cooldowns so you can open lootboxes faster or play longer are not the same thing as combat abilities given cooldowns to limit how frequently they're used in a combat. The second kind has been used for a long time in video games. WoW's cooldowns have never been a hardship, nor did WoW pioneer the mechanic.
Also, they're not inherently bad. Compare combat in City of Heroes to Champions Online. The former has cooldowns and attack chains. The latter largely does not have cooldowns, and you end up spamming your best attack.
If there are an "best attack to spam", is because you failed to make an interesting combat and skill system with tradeoffs. Should be "the best skill against enemy A in situation B under C circumstances" Examples?
Ricochet Seeker on Dragon's Dogma can be amazing against living armors in tiny spaces, worse depending the "terrain" and completely useless against an thunderwyvern in an open space
Soul Greatsword on DkS2 can be amazing against multiple enemies at CQB but useless against an single enemy at range.
On D&D, your fireball can be amazing against an skeleton "army" but useless against fire elementals or rogues with high REFLEX and improved evasion.
No one spam forbidden sun on DkS 2 due the fact that is a utlra limited ability
No one spam sacrificial bolt on Dragon's Dogma due the fact that require an sacrifice
No one spam wail of the banshee on NWN because it have few casts / rest and some times, stop time or other tier 9 spells are better.
No one spam explosive .50 BMG rounds on FNV because they are expensive an heavy(hc)
No one spam god's fire on Morrowind because deplets mana and require high skills to have an good chance to be casted.
Even on Skyrim, an ultra dumbed down game, no magic has cooldowns(unfortunately shouts have)
Cooldowns often only force you into an rotation which is not much different than "spam hte same attack" but with more buttons.
This is why play KOTOR is much more immersive than play SWTOR. D&D in this aspect offers an good immersion and can replicate with certain consistency(not perfect simulation) most things that can happens in fiction or IRL. Is not perfect. For eg, Plate armor on BG has only 10% more chance to deflect an slashing compared to an blunt attack, but at least the fact that slashing is much weaker against plate is represented in the game.
KOTOR is based on WotC's Star Wars RPG, which was built on the D20 system, which D&D3.5 was, and shared many mechanics.
Also, KOTOR is not strictly a faithful adaptation of those rules, but it worked out okay.
"Also, KOTOR is not strictly a faithful adaptation of those rules, but it worked out okay."
My point is. The most faithful adaptations that we have is ToEE, the less is Sword Coast Legends. Considering some Vincke comments, i an thinking that this will be more close to SCL than to ToEE and nobody is expecting an adaptation like ToEE. An adaptation like BG1/2 or NWN1/2 will be good enough.
The main factor of so many MMO's using the cooldown mechanic is quite simple: it is to sell the gamer "convenience" in the form of ingame shop items. Said shop items would either shorten the waiting times or completely ignore the cooldown altogether, All in exchange of the players real money. Practices like that haven't exactly helped cooldowns to get popular by the player base.
These are two entirely different kinds of cooldowns. Real money transactions to shorten cooldowns so you can open lootboxes faster or play longer are not the same thing as combat abilities given cooldowns to limit how frequently they're used in a combat. The second kind has been used for a long time in video games. WoW's cooldowns have never been a hardship, nor did WoW pioneer the mechanic.
Seems you forgot another kind of cooldown: real money transactions to shorten and/or negate the cooldowns of combat abilities through ingame shop items. This one is for instance often encountered in Korean and Chinese MMO's.
The cooldown mechanic in and of itself isn't any more good or bad than other gaming mechanics. It is *how* they are often utilized by developers that things go south real fast.
Tyranny had cooldowns and I found the game to be frankly amazing.
I din't liked, found the combat very boring, not only due CD and insanely high HP, but due the fact that you mostly fight only humans... But Tyranny is another example of trying to please Greeks and Trojans. They din't appealed to old school fans due mechanics like CD and din't appealed to new RPG fans due the heavy dialog/text...
If i could play Tyranny story with BG/IWD/NWN/M&M VI-VIII/etc ruleset, the game would be extremely better...
My point is. The best action focused RPG's like Dark Souls and Dragons dogma uses no cooldowns. The best tactical RPG's like Pathfinder Kingmaker, Baldru's Gate, Icewind dale, ToEE, etc; doesn't use cooldowns either. Why so many mmo fans/devs assume that is the unique way to do things?
"Also, KOTOR is not strictly a faithful adaptation of those rules, but it worked out okay."
My point is. The most faithful adaptations that we have is ToEE, the less is Sword Coast Legends. Considering some Vincke comments, i an thinking that this will be more close to SCL than to ToEE and nobody is expecting an adaptation like ToEE. An adaptation like BG1/2 or NWN1/2 will be good enough.
My point is that arguing cooldowns were a cruel invention for MMOs is inaccurate. KOTOR, which you praised, had cooldowns. Heck, Warcraft II, Starcraft, and Warcraft III had cooldowns (although not RPGs). Diablo 2 had cooldowns. City of Heroes, which came out several months before WoW, was an MMO with cooldowns, and brought joy to a lot of people (although not as many as WoW).
I totally get disliking MMOs that emulate WoW. I don't care for it either, but I wouldn't locate the problem in how many times per minute a warrior can use Charge.
"Also, KOTOR is not strictly a faithful adaptation of those rules, but it worked out okay."
My point is. The most faithful adaptations that we have is ToEE, the less is Sword Coast Legends. Considering some Vincke comments, i an thinking that this will be more close to SCL than to ToEE and nobody is expecting an adaptation like ToEE. An adaptation like BG1/2 or NWN1/2 will be good enough.
My point is that arguing cooldowns were a cruel invention for MMOs is inaccurate. KOTOR, which you praised, had cooldowns. Heck, Warcraft II, Starcraft, and Warcraft III had cooldowns (although not RPGs). Diablo 2 had cooldowns. City of Heroes, which came out several months before WoW, was an MMO with cooldowns, and brought joy to a lot of people (although not as many as WoW).
I totally get disliking MMOs that emulate WoW. I don't care for it either, but I wouldn't locate the problem in how many times per minute a warrior can use Charge.
Din't played Warcraft/Starcraft much, but kotor as i remember has no CD. At least on my sith lord run i don't remember anyone. Diablo 2, they added in few CPU/GPU intensive skills, because blizzard for eg was causing massive lag spikes BUT the "cooldown" duration is ridiculous slow compared to the skill duration. Kotor skills > https://strategywiki.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic_II:_The_Sith_Lords/Force_powers
There are 3 skills with very short cooldowns on PoE. I prefer if they had no CD? Yes, but this is nower near WoW or DOS2 level of CD... Even PF:KM has "recharge" on Dragon Breath(not the sorcerer with draconic bloodline skill but the Dragonform III spell breath weapon)
The skill in question with CD >
And the breath takes D4 rounds to recharge, is different than most "CDs"... And yes, i found DOS2 too much "mmoish" in artstyle, on gearing and on combat... That is my fear. From Larian, looks like only Divine divinity has no mmoish mechanics
It doesn't really matter why cooldowns were implemented, it just matters that they exist outside of the context you insist they were invented for.
Also, while "I don't like them" is valid, that's not a valid argument as to why they're universally bad.
Of course matters. Implemented due HW limitations and aways smaller than the skill duration is doesn't prevent you from using hurricane 24/7 as a druid on d2 is very different than throwing an molotov and needing to wait 50 seconds to throw again.
Considering that Larian criticized Missing, Spell slots and leveling, i an expecting to see awful things like lv cap = 100, cooldowns, and an mmosih combat.
Comments
But importantly, I've still yet to see an argument on the actual merits of why cooldowns are bad. As I said, plenty of titles have them, including universally praised titles. I don't want to see them in BG3 (and there's no evidence to suggest they will be in it). But they work just fine as a gameplay mechanic in OS.
When i refer to mmo, i an saying "wow clone", sure, you can find some mmos(most pre wow) without CD and where armor works like armor, skills like skills and attributes like attributes, i heard good things about Ultima Online, but never played. Mu Online, you are extremely vulnerable without armor and there are attribute investment. Bu mu legends(post wow) is an wow clone.
As for OS, i din't liked the combat on DOS2 because found much more that i was playing an gimmicky puzzle game in some encounters and spamming the same rotation, while on BG, i have the impression that i was fighting epic creatures. CDs is one of many mechanics that destroys my immersion. An combat where you never miss, armor never deflect blows, but needs to impale the enemy 50 times in the head is awful too. I din't liked Tyranny by this mechanics.
And my fear is that the last Larian game who was very old school on his mechanics was Divine Divinity.
edit : Is not related to rpgs, but compare the tank combat of world of tanks with warthunder. WT is much better...
I mean, you're regularly encountering monsters with triple digit hit point pools and maybe doing 10-20 damage per hit with your fighters. I'm also playing an OS1 run. While it is TB vs RT, it doesn't feel like the monsters are more bullet-spongey in either game.
And the argument that you don't miss is, as you have been told several times by several people, false. You should consider ceasing with the misinformation.
An monster with 120 hp(a lot) vs an fighter with 15 damage on average dealing 3 hits per turn if he won't miss, will deal 45 damage / turn or kill the monster in 3 turns or 18 seconds.
Here is i vs an BOSS in less than a minute and note that i only started to attack at 0:34, so considering only when i attacked him, i soloed an dragon boss in 30 seconds.
But yes, RtWP VS Turn based. An better comparation would be ToEE and on ToEE, an single fireball can end some encounters... On Pool of radiance 2(turn based), i din't saw the same problem that i had with dos2.
Cooldowns are not an exclusive MMO mechanic. That's true. Kingdoms of Amalur being one example of this (although one could argue that game was in fact an offline MMO format for single players). The cooldown mechanic in and of itself isn't any more good or bad than other gaming mechanics. It is *how* they are often utilized by developers that things go south real fast.
The main factor of so many MMO's using the cooldown mechanic is quite simple: it is to sell the gamer "convenience" in the form of ingame shop items. Said shop items would either shorten the waiting times or completely ignore the cooldown altogether, All in exchange of the players real money. Practices like that haven't exactly helped cooldowns to get popular by the player base.
City of Heroes?
Boo is overpowered
Don't worry. He's behind a $20 paywall.
Just speaking on the OS games, I think they made them work. Since, sort of like here, they used the cooldown mechanic as a way to buff your character. So spell cooldowns drop as you increase certain stats. It gets even deeper because the game has a lot charge items or items that will grant you a skill outside of your build, but those will have long cooldowns, which, again, you can shorten if you invest points in those skills. It adds a great deal to the leveling system, imo.
I don't think that asking for attributes to be attributes(measure char capabilities), armor be armor(deflect blows) and the combat an combat, not an spreedsheet same rotation spam is an hard demand...
Of course D&D combat mechanics are about purely fictional combat types, where any resemblance of the real world is purely accidental.
The previous Larian games were not restrained by D&D idiocy, so it is to be expected that they used completely different, possibly also nonsensical, mechanics.
But I expect that they will use the D&D shit as a basis for their BG3, which is not an a priory recommendation for me, by the way.
Even piercing attacks, they have an design to make for eg an javelin to be "deflected" away. See most tower shields design... And D&D was based on medieval combat games. In many games, armor works in a different way. Absorbs % damage, doesn't matter if is an knife or an warhammer. On AD&D armor often have different values against blunt, piercing or slashing. Plate armor is far more effective against slashing, makes sense that an mace is an better weapon to use against plate armor than an sword.
You probably also think that Hitpoints are a good model to simulate mediaeval fighting?
But these are games. Not simulators. Nor role playing experiences, but games first and foremost. And the D&D systems have shown a strong resilience for creating quality games.
An RPG doesn't need to be an simulator, needs to be at least immersive as "novels" and have internal consistency, you can't say that for eg, that someone will take cold damage while walking on city of brass, that vampires will take sun damage, etc.
As for one hit, depends when hit, if barely scratched you, or if the damage was done on a vital area, keep in mind that despite the overrepresentation of swords on fantasy, swords was awful against armored enemies or larger creatures and that is much more likely that you will face enemies with polearms. And that fifty cent survived 9 shots. There are also people who survived being stabbed many times. Adolf Galland in WW2 survived an shot from an 20mm cannon and managed to land with his Me 262 literally in flames.
Depends a lot. hit points are inflated on D&D to make fights more engaging and the PC's less vulnerable. Mainly at higher levels.
Save with "saves" mechanic(that larian will probably "modernize" too)
My point is not that D&D is a realistic simulator. Is just that is immersive as an "novel", that you can create an character like Aragorn and have an similar experience playing D&D than reading an book with Aragorn as the main character. With games with """modern mechanics""" where attributes doesn't represent anything lore wise or mechanic wise in relation to Aragorn, with cooldowns and other things, you can't do that.
Where I disagree is that I just don't see the D&D system as being the "ultimate" or the "be-all-end-all" system for cRPGs, at least not anymore. There used to be a time (for me) when a cRPG could be the "best" only if it was based on (3.5e) D&D, and all others were "lesser." But all those years of WotC sitting on their IP and not allowing any games to be made with it has weened me off that mentality, and now I see D&D mechanics, including 5e, as being at most just ok and nowhere near "best." In many ways D&D systems are quite superficial and simplistic, and I especially hate that they are still so heavily based on die rolls/chance.
Well considering that hitpoints are an abstraction to simulate glancing blows and grazes, with only the hit that downs your character being an actual full contact blow, yes. Its a good abstraction that doesn't bog down play with more rolls and charts.
D&D is a extremely versatile "framework", even Kotor(star wars) is very similar to 3.5e. You can even adapt things from many fiction works into to D&D.
Eg? Petrification from White Witch on Narnia, it can insta petrificate low level creatures and force medium/high level creatures to do an FORT save or be prettified permanently. working little differently than flesh to stone spell(no save from low lv on my suggestion)
On wowclones, it will be an temporary debuff.
Other example? You can create an spell or spell like ability like Naruto's Razen Shuriken, since Naruto could only use it initially 2x/day, you can say that when learned, it can be used 2x/day and at high levels 3/4x/day and that deals an massive damage like 2d6/level and d4/level CON damage on the target and dealing d2 CON damage to the "caster", because the jutso on anime has his drawbacks and injured Naruto's hands.
In an wow clone, will be just an skill in cooldown that deals massive damage and magically disappear after flying 15m, being unable to hit an colossus at 16m...
This is why play KOTOR is much more immersive than play SWTOR. D&D in this aspect offers an good immersion and can replicate with certain consistency(not perfect simulation) most things that can happens in fiction or IRL. Is not perfect. For eg, Plate armor on BG has only 10% more chance to deflect an slashing compared to an blunt attack, but at least the fact that slashing is much weaker against plate is represented in the game.
These are two entirely different kinds of cooldowns. Real money transactions to shorten cooldowns so you can open lootboxes faster or play longer are not the same thing as combat abilities given cooldowns to limit how frequently they're used in a combat. The second kind has been used for a long time in video games. WoW's cooldowns have never been a hardship, nor did WoW pioneer the mechanic.
Also, they're not inherently bad. Compare combat in City of Heroes to Champions Online. The former has cooldowns and attack chains. The latter largely does not have cooldowns, and you end up spamming your best attack.
If there are an "best attack to spam", is because you failed to make an interesting combat and skill system with tradeoffs. Should be "the best skill against enemy A in situation B under C circumstances" Examples?
Cooldowns often only force you into an rotation which is not much different than "spam hte same attack" but with more buttons.
KOTOR is based on WotC's Star Wars RPG, which was built on the D20 system, which D&D3.5 was, and shared many mechanics.
Also, KOTOR is not strictly a faithful adaptation of those rules, but it worked out okay.
KOTOR force powers have cooldowns, though.
My point is. The most faithful adaptations that we have is ToEE, the less is Sword Coast Legends. Considering some Vincke comments, i an thinking that this will be more close to SCL than to ToEE and nobody is expecting an adaptation like ToEE. An adaptation like BG1/2 or NWN1/2 will be good enough.
I din't liked, found the combat very boring, not only due CD and insanely high HP, but due the fact that you mostly fight only humans... But Tyranny is another example of trying to please Greeks and Trojans. They din't appealed to old school fans due mechanics like CD and din't appealed to new RPG fans due the heavy dialog/text...
If i could play Tyranny story with BG/IWD/NWN/M&M VI-VIII/etc ruleset, the game would be extremely better...
My point is. The best action focused RPG's like Dark Souls and Dragons dogma uses no cooldowns. The best tactical RPG's like Pathfinder Kingmaker, Baldru's Gate, Icewind dale, ToEE, etc; doesn't use cooldowns either. Why so many mmo fans/devs assume that is the unique way to do things?
My point is that arguing cooldowns were a cruel invention for MMOs is inaccurate. KOTOR, which you praised, had cooldowns. Heck, Warcraft II, Starcraft, and Warcraft III had cooldowns (although not RPGs). Diablo 2 had cooldowns. City of Heroes, which came out several months before WoW, was an MMO with cooldowns, and brought joy to a lot of people (although not as many as WoW).
I totally get disliking MMOs that emulate WoW. I don't care for it either, but I wouldn't locate the problem in how many times per minute a warrior can use Charge.
Din't played Warcraft/Starcraft much, but kotor as i remember has no CD. At least on my sith lord run i don't remember anyone. Diablo 2, they added in few CPU/GPU intensive skills, because blizzard for eg was causing massive lag spikes BUT the "cooldown" duration is ridiculous slow compared to the skill duration. Kotor skills > https://strategywiki.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic_II:_The_Sith_Lords/Force_powers
According to an research on wikia > https://pillarsofeternity2.wiki.fextralife.com/Wizard#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=cooldown&gsc.sort=
There are 3 skills with very short cooldowns on PoE. I prefer if they had no CD? Yes, but this is nower near WoW or DOS2 level of CD... Even PF:KM has "recharge" on Dragon Breath(not the sorcerer with draconic bloodline skill but the Dragonform III spell breath weapon)
The skill in question with CD >
And the breath takes D4 rounds to recharge, is different than most "CDs"... And yes, i found DOS2 too much "mmoish" in artstyle, on gearing and on combat... That is my fear. From Larian, looks like only Divine divinity has no mmoish mechanics
Also, while "I don't like them" is valid, that's not a valid argument as to why they're universally bad.
Of course matters. Implemented due HW limitations and aways smaller than the skill duration is doesn't prevent you from using hurricane 24/7 as a druid on d2 is very different than throwing an molotov and needing to wait 50 seconds to throw again.
Considering that Larian criticized Missing, Spell slots and leveling, i an expecting to see awful things like lv cap = 100, cooldowns, and an mmosih combat.