Throwing an CANISTER SHELL on GD have cooldown. This is one of reasons that i consider survival games more RPG than mmos and SP games that adopt a lot of MMO mechanics. Not only cooldown, compare how SCUM deals with attributes and how wow deals with attributes...
DinoDin Was an example. Anyway, we got ZERO good adaptations from 5e. From 2e/3/3.5e, we got a lot. 2e received good adaptations, from Pool of Radiance to BG2, 3e received nwn, ToEE, nwn2, etc. And 5e? SCL... The fact that the game is a "AAA" by an big company and not an "mid budget" project aka "AA" game is a huge reason to be concerned. Not only Vincke statements.
Larian is not a big company, - they are just a usual semi-indie studio who managed to grow. Big companies are the ones with thousands of workers, eg. Rockstar Games.
Larian were in the same boat as Obsidian, InXile, even Owlcat Games (as they're right now), - but releasing 2 critically acclaimed games who sold well let them increase the team to more than your general indie studio.
There's no reason to look at them differently.
It's very sad for me to see how people move from one argument to another, from supposedly TB combat (bad!), to cooldowns (bad!), to no games about the 5E (bad!), to jokes during dialogues (bad!), to using the BG title (bad!), etc etc etc.
If there is no game adapting the 5E in a way you're happy with, it doesn't mean there can't be such a game.
After these 3 months+, I'm now thinking that the reaction to BG3 (any reaction) comes down to:
- do you base your opinion on the BG3 part,
- or do you base your opinion on the Larian part?
The thing is, for me personally, my excitement around BG3 majorly comes from the Larian part. It's Larian who are selling the game for me, not BG3. If they decided to create another game, I'd be excited. Because I like their 2 previous games. I admire what they attempted there.
I can see how people who are hardcore BG fans have doubts because the game might not turn out a successor to BG2 in the way they imagine. To such people, I can recommend to give the D:OS games a try (if you played only D:OS 1, try D:OS 2). If you played the D:OS games and didn't like them - ok then, I think it's alright you might not expect anything good from BG3. In this case, the best option would be to wait for the gameplay details and reviews (both users' and critics'), - and only then decide, because there's a chance BG3 will not have those things you didn't like in D:OS 2, for example.
Larian stopped being a indie (semi or otherwise) studio many, many years ago. They've been around since 1996 over here in Europe, have developed over 14 games to date and currently count 200+ employees amongst their ranks. Basically they are a bona fide mid-sized developer. It's fair to compare them to similarly long running game developing studios such as Bioware (1995). inXile (2002) and Obsidian (2003) are a tad too young to count here, honestly, but are otherwise pretty equal.
Owlcat Games on the other hand has only been formed in between 2016~2017 afaik and released but a single title since then. I find it pretty unfair to put them in the same boat with the aforementioned 15+ years old studios, all things considered.
Yep, Larian is not an AAA who sold their souls to M$/EA but one thing that i particularly don't care is if is turn based or real time with pause.
We have a lot of good games using both systems. ToEE is the most faithful 3.5e adaptation and uses turn based. BG1/2 are amazing in story and world building and are RtWP. Generally i prefer RtWP against trash mobs and TB in tactical battles, the ideal would be able to switch the two at fly, but that would require an insane amount of resources, so i understand why only having one. And games who allow switch on the fly tends to have one of then poorly implemented(arcanum real time combat is broken as hell)
That said, if i only had played Divine Divinity from Larian(no modern games from then) and never heard about Vincke comments(missing, spell slots, leveling, etc), i would probably the an "Yay!" too...
Larian stopped being a indie (semi or otherwise) studio many, many years ago. They've been around since 1996 over here in Europe, have developed over 14 games to date and currently count 200+ employees amongst their ranks. Basically they are a bona fide mid-sized developer. It's fair to compare them to similarly long running game developing studios such as Bioware (1995). inXile (2002) and Obsidian (2003) are a tad too young to count here, honestly, but are otherwise pretty equal.
Owlcat Games on the other hand has only been formed in between 2016~2017 afaik and released but a single title since then. I find it pretty unfair to put them in the same boat with the aforementioned 15+ years old studios, all things considered.
I dunno man, "indie" means independent. Obsidian also counted as "indie" as late as even the Deadfire release. And, in fact, we can see the importance of this distinction with regards to how all their games were released previously and how The Outer Worlds has launched in somewhat restricted fashion. I think it's perfectly fair to call Larian an independent studio. The salient fact of being "indie" is that you have complete creative control, not the size of the company or the number of sales.
Indie is very nebulous term at this point, it can basically mean anything from non-AAA games to garage games. It's also often used in the sense where it means "outside of the mainsteam"—mainsteam being another word with nebulous meaning.
I said over and over again that "BG3 is not necessary, the Bhaalspawn saga was completed and anything that is not the Bhaalspawn Saga is not a BG game".
But knowing that BG3 is out of Beamdog's hands I'm really excited for this release.
I dunno man, "indie" means independent. Obsidian also counted as "indie" as late as even the Deadfire release. And, in fact, we can see the importance of this distinction with regards to how all their games were released previously and how The Outer Worlds has launched in somewhat restricted fashion. I think it's perfectly fair to call Larian an independent studio. The salient fact of being "indie" is that you have complete creative control, not the size of the company or the number of sales.
@DinoDin No, just no. By that definition of yours every single game developer without external publisher or right holders should be labeled as an indie studio. No matter the studio's budget. Which would make even AAA developers such as Bethesda indie studios. And that's a far stretch if I ever saw one.
While there is no fixed definition of the term, common criterias of indie game studio can be condensed as follow:
- small teams that are often times freshly formed
- low to none budget and either completely self- or crowdfunded
- sometimes not having external sponsors and/or publishers
- often having noticeable less polish as far as game quality goes in contrast to mainstream titles of the same generation
Again, there isn't a single universal accepted definition of what a indie developer detains. I for one choose to say that Larian isn't one anymore.
Yeah that's a fair rebuttal. I'd still quibble with some things there, Bethesda, for example, is quite notable for releasing games without polish, in terms of bugs for example. However, overall, I still think Larian fits within the "indie" term. They're not targeting mainstream audiences, even with BG3.
They might target main stream DnD players in a sense to entice them to go from board games or dice throwing to computer gaming. The game is a twist to the current DnD main timeline after all.
Yeah, I think it's almost a guarantee they're going to target the tabletop audience. In fact, just speculation, but most of the departures from the previous BG games will likely be to accommodate the multiplayer aspect of the game. I'm guessing many of these will be departures that will upset some of the hardcore fans of the originals. You can even kind of see hints at this with things like criticizing missing -- unnecessarily long combats are far worse in a multiplayer game than a single player game.
Larian already showed this was a strong design commitment in OS2, with its ability to have custom modules and a DM/GM.
Yeah, I think it's almost a guarantee they're going to target the tabletop audience. In fact, just speculation, but most of the departures from the previous BG games will likely be to accommodate the multiplayer aspect of the game. I'm guessing many of these will be departures that will upset some of the hardcore fans of the originals. You can even kind of see hints at this with things like criticizing missing -- unnecessarily long combats are far worse in a multiplayer game than a single player game.
Larian already showed this was a strong design commitment in OS2, with its ability to have custom modules and a DM/GM.
But BG never had "unnecessarily long combats"
Here is i VS an Dragon boss, if you consider that i only started to attack him at 0:31, took around 30 seconds to kill an Dragon boss.
About missing, is vary vague. Can be an anything from an simple optional rule "only for melee, both parts roll twice and pick the best results" to an SCL like rewrite of rules. Considering that for him, something present in "video game adaptations" since Pool of Radiance "obvious doesn't work", my guess is that will be an SCL like re write of rules...
TB vs RT makes a big difference in tolerance for combat length. And I think TB is ultimately the smarter choice if you're trying to market multiplayer as a significant mode. If BG had been turned based, that early genocide of kobolds/gnolls/hobgoblins would have been quite a slog.
Yeah, I think it's almost a guarantee they're going to target the tabletop audience. In fact, just speculation, but most of the departures from the previous BG games will likely be to accommodate the multiplayer aspect of the game. I'm guessing many of these will be departures that will upset some of the hardcore fans of the originals. You can even kind of see hints at this with things like criticizing missing -- unnecessarily long combats are far worse in a multiplayer game than a single player game.
Larian already showed this was a strong design commitment in OS2, with its ability to have custom modules and a DM/GM.
I agree, and this is ultimately the main reason I am highly skeptical of the game. The whole TB v. RTwP issue is merely a subset of this point. I feel the game is being developed as a game you are supposed to play MP. You can still also play it SP, but MP is what the game is being built for and optimized for. As such, all decisions, from combat system to party size to how closely the 5e rules will be followed, are being made from the perspective of what will be best/ideal for MP. And the game not being SP-focused first-and-foremost will be the true dealbreaker for me.
Yeah, I think it's almost a guarantee they're going to target the tabletop audience. In fact, just speculation, but most of the departures from the previous BG games will likely be to accommodate the multiplayer aspect of the game. I'm guessing many of these will be departures that will upset some of the hardcore fans of the originals. You can even kind of see hints at this with things like criticizing missing -- unnecessarily long combats are far worse in a multiplayer game than a single player game.
Larian already showed this was a strong design commitment in OS2, with its ability to have custom modules and a DM/GM.
I agree, and this is ultimately the main reason I am highly skeptical of the game. The whole TB v. RTwP issue is merely a subset of this point. I feel the game is being developed as a game you are supposed to play MP. You can still also play it SP, but MP is what the game is being built for and optimized for. As such, all decisions, from combat system to party size to how closely the 5e rules will be followed, are being made from the perspective of what will be best/ideal for MP. And the game not being SP-focused first-and-foremost will be the true dealbreaker for me.
MP focused games tends to have much more problem with power gaming. I have heard(not sure) that obsidian nerfed warlocks to oblivion on nwm2 and most powerful sorc/wiz spells due mp. But there are mods who fix things and make more pnp-like.
But if bg3 was announced as an mmo, would be worst... I mean, enen survival games has more rp than mmos.
Also, MMOs have as much roleplaying as you want to engage in, provided you can find an RP community.
But will be focused on MP and it never worked on D&D games.
For RP in mmos, is near impossible. I mean, i can't fell immersed in my role if i an playng a game where every warlock is the same, with exactly the same skills and attributes and what differentiate their power is the boots that they are wearing. Where Barbarians can only jump once each "X" seconds, etc... If you are talking about pre wow mmos, then it can be possible, i heard good things about then, but never tried ultima online to name one that people say that is like the offline version.
And an game doesn't need to be an rpg to good. Borderlands for eg is a looter shooter with extremely superficial rp elements and i like(still prefer Fallout New Vegas over BL), Dark Messiah of Might and Magic has not even 0,001% of the RPG of M&M VI-VIII and i liked it too. Is an good action game.
Cannot be Tamed has an interesting video about what define an RPG > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LW1Zb0yUw
No, i don't think that BG 3 will go full "mmoish style" but also don't think that will be an "5e ToEE"... But considering Vincke comments, IMO in a scale of 0 to 10, where 0 is SCL and 10 ToEE, BG3 will be between 2 and 5 being extremely optimistic.
Accommodating a MP aspect and making the game MP-centric are not the same thing. D:OS 2 plays nicely both in SP and MP, and it's actually very surprising how a story-driven game with so much exploration and so many personalities works excellent in MP.
Looking at the feedback to how MP works in BG 1&2 :EEs, I understand how important it is to make things right both for SP and MP. But we can't blame original games here - they were created 20 years ago. Today's standards are different.
I expect BG3 will follow the same route as D:OS 2 and will provide both SP and MP experience.
Accommodating a MP aspect and making the game MP-centric are not the same thing.
Yes, exactly right. So if a game is the former, which is how I see the IE games, then it is absolutely fine with me. If it is the latter, then it is a hard 'NO' for me. And from my standpoint, I am expecting BG3 to be the latter and this is why I am so negative about the game. Why am I expecting this? Well, again from my pov, that is how I see the D:OS games - as MP-centric games where all the design choices for the games were made with co-op play in mind first and foremost. And also, when I see Swen Vincke's interviews, the thing he is by far the most excited about wrt BG3 is the whole Stadia aspect of the game.
For RP in mmos, is near impossible. I mean, i can't fell immersed in my role if i an playng a game where every warlock is the same, with exactly the same skills and attributes and what differentiate their power is the boots that they are wearing. Where Barbarians can only jump once each "X" seconds, etc... If you are talking about pre wow mmos, then it can be possible, i heard good things about then, but never tried ultima online to name one that people say that is like the offline version.
I've seen RP in Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes, The Matrix Online, World of Warcraft, Star Wars: The Old Republic, and The Secret World. The thing about roleplaying is that you generally need the cooperation of other players to roleplay with. The game itself doesn't prevent this, and people do it all the time. And I don't mean ERP, I mean all kinds. some facilitated it (The Matrix Online) and some didn't, but it's a thing people have been doing for a long time.
I totally get that you find RPing near impossible in MMOs, but that's not a universal experience. And roleplaying isn't about numbercrunching, that's just a part of many RPGs whether digital or analog.
If you mean specifically what's described in "Cannot Be Tamed's" video, then I guess we'll part ways. Roleplaying isn't writing numbers on a sheet or recording them in a database.
If you mean specifically what's described in "Cannot Be Tamed's" video, then I guess we'll part ways. Roleplaying isn't writing numbers on a sheet or recording them in a database.
LARP RP can be done without numbers, but in general when we are talking about cRPG's, "A role-playing video game (commonly referred to as simply a role-playing game or an RPG as well as a computer role-playing game or a CRPG) is a video game genre where the player controls the actions of a character (and/or several party members) immersed in some well-defined world. Many role-playing video games have origins in tabletop role-playing games[1] (including Dungeons & Dragons) and use much of the same terminology, settings and game mechanics. Other major similarities with pen-and-paper games include developed story-telling and narrative elements, player character development, complexity, as well as replayability and immersion. <...>" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game
Most mmos lack many things.
No similarity to pnp(never saw CDs in a pnp rpg nor "you don't roll stats, your char iq is determined by their boots and everyone in my world is a clone, everyone has 10 STR, 10 DEX, 10 INT...")
I don't see immersion in his mechanics
There are no story telling or narrative elements, is just farming the same monster/dungeon to get more numbers on your class level and on your gear.
No complexity.
No decision making
No character building
Ironically, i see more RPG elements mentioned on wikipedia on survival games and even on strategy games such as HoMM3 than on WoW for eg. https://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2010/03/what-is-crpg.html
JuliusBorisov , as you mentioned, many people criticized the magic/armor system on DOS2. Was this changes made thanks to MP?
I don't believe the magic/armor system in D:OS 2 has anything to do with MP. And as I have previously mentioned, I totally can understand why they wanted to move on from the D:OS 1 system so that you couldn't CC every enemy during the 1st turn till the end of the battle. I don't know how "many" people criticized the system, but I know that I liked it and I understand why they did that. However, there's a mod for D:OS 2 which addresses the concern of those who don't like the existing system, giving you a chance to inflict a special effect even with the armor still on. Mods help make the games suitable for everyone.
I don't believe the magic/armor system in D:OS 2 has anything to do with MP. And as I have previously mentioned, I totally can understand why they wanted to move on from the D:OS 1 system so that you couldn't CC every enemy during the 1st turn till the end of the battle. I don't know how "many" people criticized the system, but I know that I liked it and I understand why they did that. However, there's a mod for D:OS 2 which addresses the concern of those who don't like the existing system, giving you a chance to inflict a special effect even with the armor still on. Mods help make the games suitable for everyone.
Yep. There are also PRC for nwn1 who makes the game more pnp0-like. I wish that BG3 will be easily moddable, so people will mod 5e rules on it if Larian decides to change everything... If Larian says that the game will be easily moddable, i would change my vote to Yay!
Where did you read/hear the main thing Swen is excited about in terms of BG3 is the Stadia aspect of the game?
Huh? I didn't say anything about hearing this somewhere. It is my personal conclusion based on my observations. I said when I watch Swen's interviews, I find him to be the most excited when he is discussing the game being on Stadia. In fact, so much so that I feel he sees the Stadia thing as THE most revolutionary part of his game.
But, on reading a couple of those articles you linked, and ignoring the silly fanboism of the authors, I did have an epiphany about why I so dislike the D:OS games, at least in part. It is that I just utterly despise the setting, the world of those games. That, I think, is the starting point for my alienation from those games. I just can't stand that setting, and by extension then the characters of that world.
By contrast, I absolutely LOVE the Forgotten Realms. I am an unabashed and unapologetic zealot when it comes to any and all things Forgotten Realms. I've often mentioned in various threads that I own and have read almost all of the novels from that setting, and am an FR setting lore addict. So then this may be what makes a HUGE difference in me reacting differently to BG3 from how I have reacted to the D:OS games. But of course this depends entirely on the game representing the FR setting in a true and faithful way without D:OS-ifying the setting.
This epiphany significantly changes my prospective perspective on BG3!
LARP RP can be done without numbers, but in general when we are talking about cRPG's, "A role-playing video game (commonly referred to as simply a role-playing game or an RPG as well as a computer role-playing game or a CRPG) is a video game genre where the player controls the actions of a character (and/or several party members) immersed in some well-defined world. Many role-playing video games have origins in tabletop role-playing games[1] (including Dungeons & Dragons) and use much of the same terminology, settings and game mechanics. Other major similarities with pen-and-paper games include developed story-telling and narrative elements, player character development, complexity, as well as replayability and immersion. <...>" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game
Okay, that's not roleplaying. That's just numbercrunching. The stats are arguably one of the least important things in terms of actual roleplay.
No similarity to pnp(never saw CDs in a pnp rpg nor "you don't roll stats, your char iq is determined by their boots and everyone in my world is a clone, everyone has 10 STR, 10 DEX, 10 INT...")
I don't see immersion in his mechanics
There are no story telling or narrative elements, is just farming the same monster/dungeon to get more numbers on your class level and on your gear.
Cooldowns are a thing that make more sense in real time environments vs. turn-based environments. D&D doesn't (mostly) have cooldowns, but it does have uses per day, which falls into exactly the same role for exactly the same purpose.
Many RPGs don't have you roll for stats. Pillars of Eternity, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Bloodlines, Neverwinter Nights, the Witcher games, Arcanum, etc. in CRPGs. Tabletop RPGs take this even further in games like GURPS, Hero System, Fate, various incarnations of the Storyteller System, Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Mechwarrior, Amber Diceless and its descendants, Last Unicorn Games' Star Trek, West End Games' Star Wars, and so on. The list is practically endless.
Everyone being a clone isn't really relevant, as everyone isn't a clone. That is to say, this is only a concern if you insist on thinking about it all the time. This isn't far off from tabletop D&D, although there's somewhat more variation if you choose to use random die rolls instead of point build to make your characters.
Immersion is subjective. If you don't find MMOs immersive, then that's not necessarily the game's problem. I've found multiple MMOs to be immersive.
I don't think I've ever played an MMO that didn't have story telling and narrative elements. That farming was a part of the game, but by far not the only part. When it comes to WoW, I guess you don't know anything about Crusader Bridenbrad, Morgan Ladimore, Pamela's doll, the Defias Brotherhood, the struggle between Thorim and Loken, Thrall reconnecting with the orcs on Draenor's remains. The question isn't whether there's a story in any given MMO, it's how many in total. And often, it's quite a lot.
"No complexity" is not even wrong. The mechanics are frequently more complex than any PnP game, but they're also more accessible, making it easier for players to make informed decisions.
"No decision making" is also not true, although this is less frequent than in single player CRPGs. The addition of City of Heroes: Going Rogue provided numerous decision points for characters, allowing heroes to become villains and vice versa.
"No character building" isn't true. Character progression is generally one of the biggest parts of any MMO, although it is true that it's difficult to provide more than a few mechanically ideal progression paths. Unfortunately, this is an RPG problem and not an MMO problem.
Which MMOs have you played? And when did you play them?
Comments
Throwing an CANISTER SHELL on GD have cooldown. This is one of reasons that i consider survival games more RPG than mmos and SP games that adopt a lot of MMO mechanics. Not only cooldown, compare how SCUM deals with attributes and how wow deals with attributes...
Larian were in the same boat as Obsidian, InXile, even Owlcat Games (as they're right now), - but releasing 2 critically acclaimed games who sold well let them increase the team to more than your general indie studio.
There's no reason to look at them differently.
It's very sad for me to see how people move from one argument to another, from supposedly TB combat (bad!), to cooldowns (bad!), to no games about the 5E (bad!), to jokes during dialogues (bad!), to using the BG title (bad!), etc etc etc.
If there is no game adapting the 5E in a way you're happy with, it doesn't mean there can't be such a game.
After these 3 months+, I'm now thinking that the reaction to BG3 (any reaction) comes down to:
- do you base your opinion on the BG3 part,
- or do you base your opinion on the Larian part?
The thing is, for me personally, my excitement around BG3 majorly comes from the Larian part. It's Larian who are selling the game for me, not BG3. If they decided to create another game, I'd be excited. Because I like their 2 previous games. I admire what they attempted there.
I can see how people who are hardcore BG fans have doubts because the game might not turn out a successor to BG2 in the way they imagine. To such people, I can recommend to give the D:OS games a try (if you played only D:OS 1, try D:OS 2). If you played the D:OS games and didn't like them - ok then, I think it's alright you might not expect anything good from BG3. In this case, the best option would be to wait for the gameplay details and reviews (both users' and critics'), - and only then decide, because there's a chance BG3 will not have those things you didn't like in D:OS 2, for example.
Owlcat Games on the other hand has only been formed in between 2016~2017 afaik and released but a single title since then. I find it pretty unfair to put them in the same boat with the aforementioned 15+ years old studios, all things considered.
We have a lot of good games using both systems. ToEE is the most faithful 3.5e adaptation and uses turn based. BG1/2 are amazing in story and world building and are RtWP. Generally i prefer RtWP against trash mobs and TB in tactical battles, the ideal would be able to switch the two at fly, but that would require an insane amount of resources, so i understand why only having one. And games who allow switch on the fly tends to have one of then poorly implemented(arcanum real time combat is broken as hell)
That said, if i only had played Divine Divinity from Larian(no modern games from then) and never heard about Vincke comments(missing, spell slots, leveling, etc), i would probably the an "Yay!" too...
I dunno man, "indie" means independent. Obsidian also counted as "indie" as late as even the Deadfire release. And, in fact, we can see the importance of this distinction with regards to how all their games were released previously and how The Outer Worlds has launched in somewhat restricted fashion. I think it's perfectly fair to call Larian an independent studio. The salient fact of being "indie" is that you have complete creative control, not the size of the company or the number of sales.
But knowing that BG3 is out of Beamdog's hands I'm really excited for this release.
@DinoDin No, just no. By that definition of yours every single game developer without external publisher or right holders should be labeled as an indie studio. No matter the studio's budget. Which would make even AAA developers such as Bethesda indie studios. And that's a far stretch if I ever saw one.
While there is no fixed definition of the term, common criterias of indie game studio can be condensed as follow:
- small teams that are often times freshly formed
- low to none budget and either completely self- or crowdfunded
- sometimes not having external sponsors and/or publishers
- often having noticeable less polish as far as game quality goes in contrast to mainstream titles of the same generation
Again, there isn't a single universal accepted definition of what a indie developer detains. I for one choose to say that Larian isn't one anymore.
Larian already showed this was a strong design commitment in OS2, with its ability to have custom modules and a DM/GM.
But BG never had "unnecessarily long combats"
Here is i VS an Dragon boss, if you consider that i only started to attack him at 0:31, took around 30 seconds to kill an Dragon boss.
About missing, is vary vague. Can be an anything from an simple optional rule "only for melee, both parts roll twice and pick the best results" to an SCL like rewrite of rules. Considering that for him, something present in "video game adaptations" since Pool of Radiance "obvious doesn't work", my guess is that will be an SCL like re write of rules...
MP focused games tends to have much more problem with power gaming. I have heard(not sure) that obsidian nerfed warlocks to oblivion on nwm2 and most powerful sorc/wiz spells due mp. But there are mods who fix things and make more pnp-like.
But if bg3 was announced as an mmo, would be worst... I mean, enen survival games has more rp than mmos.
Also, MMOs have as much roleplaying as you want to engage in, provided you can find an RP community.
But will be focused on MP and it never worked on D&D games.
For RP in mmos, is near impossible. I mean, i can't fell immersed in my role if i an playng a game where every warlock is the same, with exactly the same skills and attributes and what differentiate their power is the boots that they are wearing. Where Barbarians can only jump once each "X" seconds, etc... If you are talking about pre wow mmos, then it can be possible, i heard good things about then, but never tried ultima online to name one that people say that is like the offline version.
And an game doesn't need to be an rpg to good. Borderlands for eg is a looter shooter with extremely superficial rp elements and i like(still prefer Fallout New Vegas over BL), Dark Messiah of Might and Magic has not even 0,001% of the RPG of M&M VI-VIII and i liked it too. Is an good action game.
Cannot be Tamed has an interesting video about what define an RPG >
No, i don't think that BG 3 will go full "mmoish style" but also don't think that will be an "5e ToEE"... But considering Vincke comments, IMO in a scale of 0 to 10, where 0 is SCL and 10 ToEE, BG3 will be between 2 and 5 being extremely optimistic.
Looking at the feedback to how MP works in BG 1&2 :EEs, I understand how important it is to make things right both for SP and MP. But we can't blame original games here - they were created 20 years ago. Today's standards are different.
I expect BG3 will follow the same route as D:OS 2 and will provide both SP and MP experience.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-08-26-divinity-original-sin-2-is-a-dizzying-multiplayer-focussed-sequel
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/09/25/how-multiplayer-makes-divinity-original-sin-2s-singleplayer-great/
https://www.pcgamesn.com/divinity-original-sin-ii/why-being-able-to-poison-your-friends-creates-a-better-story-in-divinity-original-sin-2
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/divinity-original-sin-2s-new-features-deepen-playe/1100-6442634/
Where did you read/hear the main thing Swen is excited about in terms of BG3 is the Stadia aspect of the game?
It's so great to see so many people expressing their opinion one way or the other. I didn't actually expect this thread to get this much traffic.
I've seen RP in Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes, The Matrix Online, World of Warcraft, Star Wars: The Old Republic, and The Secret World. The thing about roleplaying is that you generally need the cooperation of other players to roleplay with. The game itself doesn't prevent this, and people do it all the time. And I don't mean ERP, I mean all kinds. some facilitated it (The Matrix Online) and some didn't, but it's a thing people have been doing for a long time.
I totally get that you find RPing near impossible in MMOs, but that's not a universal experience. And roleplaying isn't about numbercrunching, that's just a part of many RPGs whether digital or analog.
If you mean specifically what's described in "Cannot Be Tamed's" video, then I guess we'll part ways. Roleplaying isn't writing numbers on a sheet or recording them in a database.
LARP RP can be done without numbers, but in general when we are talking about cRPG's, "A role-playing video game (commonly referred to as simply a role-playing game or an RPG as well as a computer role-playing game or a CRPG) is a video game genre where the player controls the actions of a character (and/or several party members) immersed in some well-defined world. Many role-playing video games have origins in tabletop role-playing games[1] (including Dungeons & Dragons) and use much of the same terminology, settings and game mechanics. Other major similarities with pen-and-paper games include developed story-telling and narrative elements, player character development, complexity, as well as replayability and immersion. <...>" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game
Most mmos lack many things.
Ironically, i see more RPG elements mentioned on wikipedia on survival games and even on strategy games such as HoMM3 than on WoW for eg. https://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2010/03/what-is-crpg.html
JuliusBorisov , as you mentioned, many people criticized the magic/armor system on DOS2. Was this changes made thanks to MP?
Yep. There are also PRC for nwn1 who makes the game more pnp0-like. I wish that BG3 will be easily moddable, so people will mod 5e rules on it if Larian decides to change everything... If Larian says that the game will be easily moddable, i would change my vote to Yay!
See the changes made from spell fixes(nwn2 mod), tons and tons of changes > https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/script/spell-fixes-and-improvements
But, on reading a couple of those articles you linked, and ignoring the silly fanboism of the authors, I did have an epiphany about why I so dislike the D:OS games, at least in part. It is that I just utterly despise the setting, the world of those games. That, I think, is the starting point for my alienation from those games. I just can't stand that setting, and by extension then the characters of that world.
By contrast, I absolutely LOVE the Forgotten Realms. I am an unabashed and unapologetic zealot when it comes to any and all things Forgotten Realms.
This epiphany significantly changes my prospective perspective on BG3!
Okay, that's not roleplaying. That's just numbercrunching. The stats are arguably one of the least important things in terms of actual roleplay.
Also, I wasn't talking about LARP.
Cooldowns are a thing that make more sense in real time environments vs. turn-based environments. D&D doesn't (mostly) have cooldowns, but it does have uses per day, which falls into exactly the same role for exactly the same purpose.
Many RPGs don't have you roll for stats. Pillars of Eternity, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Bloodlines, Neverwinter Nights, the Witcher games, Arcanum, etc. in CRPGs. Tabletop RPGs take this even further in games like GURPS, Hero System, Fate, various incarnations of the Storyteller System, Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Mechwarrior, Amber Diceless and its descendants, Last Unicorn Games' Star Trek, West End Games' Star Wars, and so on. The list is practically endless.
Everyone being a clone isn't really relevant, as everyone isn't a clone. That is to say, this is only a concern if you insist on thinking about it all the time. This isn't far off from tabletop D&D, although there's somewhat more variation if you choose to use random die rolls instead of point build to make your characters.
Immersion is subjective. If you don't find MMOs immersive, then that's not necessarily the game's problem. I've found multiple MMOs to be immersive.
I don't think I've ever played an MMO that didn't have story telling and narrative elements. That farming was a part of the game, but by far not the only part. When it comes to WoW, I guess you don't know anything about Crusader Bridenbrad, Morgan Ladimore, Pamela's doll, the Defias Brotherhood, the struggle between Thorim and Loken, Thrall reconnecting with the orcs on Draenor's remains. The question isn't whether there's a story in any given MMO, it's how many in total. And often, it's quite a lot.
"No complexity" is not even wrong. The mechanics are frequently more complex than any PnP game, but they're also more accessible, making it easier for players to make informed decisions.
"No decision making" is also not true, although this is less frequent than in single player CRPGs. The addition of City of Heroes: Going Rogue provided numerous decision points for characters, allowing heroes to become villains and vice versa.
"No character building" isn't true. Character progression is generally one of the biggest parts of any MMO, although it is true that it's difficult to provide more than a few mechanically ideal progression paths. Unfortunately, this is an RPG problem and not an MMO problem.
Which MMOs have you played? And when did you play them?