Unpopular opinion, i don't find female drow attractive
Try the dudes, then.
I never liked the blue tint most artists used for the Drow. Todd Lockwood used a more realistic skin tone for Starlight & Shadows, and Liriel Baenre looks gorgeous. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tangled_Webs
"More realistic skin tone"
...are there better examples because based of the only two pics on the link, that is quite literally inaccurate. The very skin tone on that book cover is a very desaturated, toned down shade of violet. I'll emit that at first glance it could be mistaken for skin somewhat darker than even mine but that mostly due to how the mind works and the softness of the rendering technique.
I have the book, and on the cover her skin tone looks natural. It's hard to find color corrected versions on the net.
The whole "Drow are dark skinned because they're evil" story line always bugged me. In a homebrew world I put together back in the '80s, Drow were dark skinned because they were descended from elves of the notSerengetti. They delved too deep under notKilimanjaro.
I mean I'm going to be honest, all that plays into the science off color, psychologically each color has a mental effect on us on a general level. Keyword there is general, not individual. Each color and the tones of dark and light all have both a positive and negative representation.
(...)
This is just a small general break down of colors and value representation but since the beginning of time blackness has representing the unknowing, the embodiment of mankind's fear due to lack of understanding. So making the show dark-skinned and evil just makes sense if not cliche.
@DragonKing
I understand that a color might be culturally attached to our preconceptions , and black represents in western culture Infinity and death for cultural reasons , but it can also be considered black because in the shadows humans have found and witnessed predators and dangers. On the other hand , darkness and shadows are the ideal setting for us to sleep , so we can't really say that our subconscious treats it as totally evil.
That said, let's go a bit further in history , specially in Europe where History was written by treating the white european man as a standard for "normal" , it is a terrible twisted version of the "black is bad because of death and shadows" promoted mostly by european christianism that extended it to people's skin color, as it contributea to dehumanization and we cannot ignore the fact that we still have such values in our culture where a white beautiful person is a "classic" whereas people of other skin tones are either "exotic" or "off-standards" . I strongly believe and repeat the writers and authors, people who study and observe the world around them, should go another way , dettaching evil from skin tone and relating it to other things such as culture, character, experience etc.
IIRC their hair and skin tone are part of the curse cast upon them when Lloth got banished from the Seldarine and their followers were expelled from the surface to Hor'Oloth (Underdark).
Calling @DarkShinobi to help my memory as he is like an elven Wikipedia.
Talking about Drow of Forgotten Realms, then yes, they were always dark skinned elves by origins, since they were a gift made by Corellon to Araushnee (pre-Lolth elven goddess). After The Descent, it says that their dark skin took an obsidian -purplelike tone and they got cast out to Underdark by the casting of a divine ritual.
Before that, they used to live in the surface and they were called Ssri-tel-quessir. About alignment, not all of them were evil, some of them were good and even worshipped the dark elven goddess Eilistraee, which is also a dark skinned goddess and it's daughter of Corellon and Araushnee.
That said, let's go a bit further in history , specially in Europe where History was written by treating the white european man as a standard for "normal" , it is a terrible twisted version of the "black is bad because of death and shadows" promoted mostly by european christianism that extended it to people's skin color, as it contributea to dehumanization and we cannot ignore the fact that we still have such values in our culture where a white beautiful person is a "classic" whereas people of other skin tones are either "exotic" or "off-standards" . I strongly believe and repeat the writers and authors, people who study and observe the world around them, should go another way , dettaching evil from skin tone and relating it to other things such as culture, character, experience etc.
I'm not quite sure what you're talking about..?
Caucasians wouldn't try to get some tan on their skin if it wasn't considered attractive.
Evil races, if you look at e.g. LotR or GoT, you'd notice that neither haradrim nor dothraki are particularly dark, it's their warpaint and makeup, along with dress and hair style, that symbolize allegiance to evil through being savage.
So in the game there are blacks who are good, bad, and indiffernt, just like all races.
The problem that I CAN see is that race of itself is deemed to be a cause of alignment.
Now I know this is fantasy, but dubbing any race evil is likely to cause upset.
In RL there are good, bad and indifferent of every race.
This is the thing I have always hated about D&D (which I clearly like D&D otherwise I wouldn't be here). This race is this alignment and that race is that alignment. I realize it is for game mechanics, but on the storytelling side of it alignment feels like racist undertones (especially when you get into Drow being evil skin-cursed creatures). It makes sense for demons/devils, but non-eschatological humanoids would have societies of all alignments if I were doing the writing.
Unpopular opinion, i don't find female drow attractive
Try the dudes, then.
I never liked the blue tint most artists used for the Drow. Todd Lockwood used a more realistic skin tone for Starlight & Shadows, and Liriel Baenre looks gorgeous. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tangled_Webs
"More realistic skin tone"
...are there better examples because based of the only two pics on the link, that is quite literally inaccurate. The very skin tone on that book cover is a very desaturated, toned down shade of violet. I'll emit that at first glance it could be mistaken for skin somewhat darker than even mine but that mostly due to how the mind works and the softness of the rendering technique.
I have the book, and on the cover her skin tone looks natural. It's hard to find color corrected versions on the net.
The whole "Drow are dark skinned because they're evil" story line always bugged me. In a homebrew world I put together back in the '80s, Drow were dark skinned because they were descended from elves of the notSerengetti. They delved too deep under notKilimanjaro.
I mean I'm going to be honest, all that plays into the science off color, psychologically each color has a mental effect on us on a general level. Keyword there is general, not individual. Each color and the tones of dark and light all have both a positive and negative representation.
(...)
This is just a small general break down of colors and value representation but since the beginning of time blackness has representing the unknowing, the embodiment of mankind's fear due to lack of understanding. So making the show dark-skinned and evil just makes sense if not cliche.
@DragonKing
I understand that a color might be culturally attached to our preconceptions , and black represents in western culture Infinity and death for cultural reasons,
...
China
"Black – Water: As surprising as this might seem, Water element is not represented by Blue, but with Black. Black color in Chinese culture is associated with destruction, evil, profundity, disasters, cruelty, sadness and suffering. It is bad fortune and must not be worn to auspicious occasions like weddings. The Chinese word for black is ‘hei’ which itself stands for bad luck, irregularity, illegality etc. Avoid using black in your brand marketing."
Black is a popular color in Japan for electronics and clothing. It mainly denotes non-being, mystery, night and anger. Calligraphy is usually done in black ink on white paper. As stated above, black and white are both colors of mourning in Japan. Wooden condolence gifts are often tied in envelopes stringed in black and white. Black in Japanese culture also denotes the hair and eyes. Many phrases consist of the Japanese word for black such as “clarifying between right and wrong “or “rolling one’s eyes in surprise, fright or anguish” etc. Black also denotes evil-hearted person.
Black in India has connotations with lack of desirability, evil, negativity, and inertia. It represents anger and darkness and is associated with the absence of energy, barrenness, and death. Black is used as a representation of evil and is often used to ward off evil. This can be found in an age old custom amongst Indians where an infant or, for that matter, anyone looking really spectacular is often traditionally blessed with a little black dot on the chin or under the ear to ward off the evil eye. And while white stands for everything desirable in the west, in India it takes on a more somber connotation. http://www.sensationalcolor.com/color-meaning/color-around-the-world/india-country-symbolic-colors-1935#.XRYzKBgXY0M
Egypt
In the ancient Egyptian era, the color black symbolized death and night on one hand and endurance and stability on the other. The Egyptians also associated black with resurrection and fertility because their cultivation was largely dependent on the rich dark silt that was abundantly deposited on the banks of the river Nile. Black was often associated with the thought of brining order from chaos. In the later periods of the ancient Egyptian civilization, healing stones were often made from black stones. Black dyes were prepared from carbon compounds like ground charcoal, burnt animal bones, soot and occasionally form an ore of manganese.
Anubis, the Egyptian god of dead, was portrayed as a black jackal. The Egyptian queen Ahmose-Nefertari, who was often worshipped by her subjects, was often portrayed with black skin.
I can keep going with this, I originally was going yo start going into Yoruba, Igbo, Nigerian where blacks represent things from evil and death to resurrection the literal reason I posted both a positive and negative symbolic and psychological meaning for each color and value because there are only a few cultures where a color or value of light and dark only represent one single thing and black represents death for more than just a western concept, it exist in some if not all of the oldest cultures on the planet.
but it can also be considered black because in the shadows humans have found and witnessed predators and dangers.
That literally falls under the idea of death and the unknowing... Which I attributed to black in my post... I can't speak for you but most people view coming face to face with an apex predator the equivalent of coming face to face with their possible death.
On the other hand , darkness and shadows are the ideal setting for us to sleep,
so we can't really say that our subconscious treats it as totally evil.
I'm going to quote a bit of David ford here since he says this better than I ever could... Sleep is the cousin of death.
"During sleep, the conscious mind shuts down. Without consciousness, you can’t be aware of what you are thinking, and you have no sense that you can intervene in your own thought processes. Instead, your mind appears to proceed automatically, as if it is a machine, which is not how we ordinarily become aware that we have a sense of self.
A sense of self depends on having awareness of thought processes. You can identify thinking as being the thinking of the entity you think of as yourself. Without that awareness, there is no sense of self.
Death is another state where it appears that there is no sense of self. The body stops working, and there is no brain activity. Most people who have temporarily been dead report a complete absence of awareness during the time they were dead. This is not to be confused with the reports of traveling towards white lights or senses of merging with something safe and caring that loves them — experiences that happen in the last seconds before brain activity ceases.
So people say sleep is a cousin to death because there is no awareness of thinking when asleep, and it appears there is no thinking to be aware of when people are dead"
in history , specially in Europe where History was written by treating the white european man as a standard for "normal",
in history , specially in Chinese/Muslim/Japanese/Egyptian where History was written by treating the Chinese/Muslim/Japanese/Egyptian man as a standard for "normal"
Yes LITERALLY EVERY CULTURE ON EARTH did this until they were conquered by a more powerful force! When china conquer Japan, the Chinese man was put above the Japanese. When the Zulu conquered *insert culture* they put themselves on top. China technically still does it to the Taiwanese this is not and was not ever a White European only thing.
it is a terrible twisted version of the "black is bad because of death and shadows" promoted mostly by european christianism that extended it to people's skin color,
Except culture older than the idea of "white European man" did it even before they did.
and we cannot ignore the fact that we still have such values in our culture where a white beautiful person is a "classic"
It's almost like... The dominate creative force of x y z culture is going to its own idea of what beauty. Yet this seems to only be a problem I white dominate countries... Korea, Japan, china, India find their own standard of beauty to be themselves... But this is some how magically a bad thing in the states and Europe where whites are the most dominant.
whereas people of other skin tones are either "exotic" or "off-standards"
Yes, that's every culture, ask any black person who travels to Japan, Korea or China... Ask any asian person. Who travels to Nigeria, Nubia, or Yoruba! When you ate not the normal in the place you visit you are exotic!
In fact lets use real world numbers to actually put this onto perspective!
The current population of the United States of America is 327,167,434 as of July 1, 2018
Hispanic or Latino- 18.3% currently the second largest demographic in this country, beating blacks out... Oh I wonder why... Vast majority dominate the west to South west of the country.
Blacks- 13.4% and the majority of us are in the south - southeast of the country. Just based on those statistics alone even born and raised in the states we are still the anomaly to vast majority and there is a large majority of whites who statistically will never meet a black person.
Asian- 5.9% now we are no longer even in the double digits! A population so freaking small I didn't actually meet anyone of asian or oriental decent until I was actually in high school. Had her once for ROTC and never saw her again. Similar situation with a girl I was on middle school with whos family was Hindu. Didn't ever meet another person of that group in this country until I started dating my ex.
Two or more races- 2.7%
Mesoamerican or Alaskan- 1.3%
Hawaiian or other Pacific islanders- 0.3%
In where you aren't even half the freaking population, you are not the standard! You are not what the majority sees in everyday freaking life, that's FACT! Also, i'd rather be viewed as exotic then mundane or generic which is what you become who 70% of the population looks no different from you.
. I strongly believe and, repeat the writers and authors, people who study and observe the world around them, should go another way , dettaching evil from skin tone and relating it to other things such as culture, character, experience etc.
I have a dream that one day people will stop conflating ideas into more than what they really are! That something as mundane as a skin tone on a evil character won't be perceived as some bs systematic message about real world people! Especially when it is written in their lore or not written that the color of they're evil! I stand before you now... Ok I can't keep that up God I wanted to parody mlk jr speech so bad though lmao.
@DragonKing you've mentioned a lot of interesting cultural and historical facts , and it's okay to point out consequences of dominance in *History* , but here comes a question: Are we still colonized by other nations? Os slavery still legal?
Clearly not in my continent , but we still hold values that came from those times , racism in aesthetics , mass culture and historical records is still real . I mentioned colonization because AFAIK dehumanization by color (and that's what it was , as a white person wouldnt be enslaved in the American continent, not under "normal" circunstances) as we know it did start with European colonization . It carries a legacy and because western society was no less racist 60 years ago . So what kind of cultural dominance are we talking about in modern times?
But I never wanted to go off topic , my original comment was that I wouldn't really encourage writers to consider skin color a standard for evil and the reply was "but it can be for X reasons" , I made another reply but I'm afraid it may even lead to another , IRL topic .
DragonKing, races IRL tends to have much more "shades of grey" than in video games and tends to have a lot of arbitrariety . For example, the therm "hispanic/latino", this classification doesn't exist outside of US and generalizes a lot of different groups, putting an Argenitne, an Haitian and an Mexican in the same ethinic group, when even inside Argentina, there are countless of different groups. Even considering only the natives, an Fuegian is completely different than an Guarani.
I an Brazilian, descendant of an relative poor baron(for noble standards during imperial times) with pale skin, born with blonde hair that turned dark after i growled up and is silly to think that the members of Orleans family born in Europe belongs to a different ethnic group than the members of the same family born here in US. If you look to "nazis", in order to enforce their "racial laws", a lot of subjectivity happened. For example, the Pomeranians born left of an artificial like was "aryan", right of an artificial line that changed a lot on history, was considered "slav".
With fantasy races, the same doesn't happens. Is very easy to distinguish an drow than an orc or an human than a mindflayer. And the skin color is not that much related to your "race" on D&D. An silver half dragon is so dragon as an silver red dragon despite his parents being exactly the opposite and "created" by different deities.
For example, the therm "hispanic/latino", this classification doesn't exist outside of US
Ok? That literally changes nothing I said or anything that i was talking about. And again, i literally stated the U.S.A when I started to break things down. When dealing with 1 region or one set variables it literally doesn't matter what does or doesn't exist elsewhere because elsewhere is what was being discussed at that moment.
and generalizes a lot of different groups, putting an Argenitne, an Haitian and an Mexican in the same ethinic group, when even inside Argentina, there are countless of different groups.Even considering only the natives, an Fuegian is completely different than an Guarani.
I'm looking for the point but I'm honestly not finding it, it has absolutely nothing to so with what i said.
I an Brazilian, descendant of an relative poor baron(for noble standards during imperial times) with pale skin, born with blonde hair that turned dark after i growled up and is silly to think that the members of Orleans family born in Europe belongs to a different ethnic group than the members of the same family born here in US.
What? I can't even begin to comprehend what lead you to this...
For example, the Pomeranians born left of an artificial like was "aryan", right of an artificial line that changed a lot on history, was considered "slav"
.
With fantasy races, the same doesn't happens. Is very easy to distinguish an drow than an orc or an human than a mindflayer. And the skin color is not that much related to your "race" on D&D. An silver half dragon is so dragon as an silver red dragon despite his parents being exactly the opposite and "created" by different deities.
Ok STOP! What are you replying to, give me some actual context here! What ever point you're trying to make isn't hitting the side of the barn because i see no connection point!
You can't be making some point towards my statement of color because i made no statement about or fAmily, or nazis! I was literal only talking the bare basics of color without going into Art mode and going into how light and color all work together.
You can't be referring to what @DJKajuru and myself talking about because even with what i said, neither of us said a sing thing about "racial laws" or "nazis" so i literally have no clue where you are coming from or going with this.
DragonKing , i was not trying to "debunk" you, my point was only to add AND explain why this topic on a fictional universe is different than IRL. And it depends on the setting, for eg, even very human like races like vulcans(star treck) can be very different.
In the Forgotten Realms, the drow have the coloration they have as a direct result of their allegiance to Lolth. It’s magical, not biological.
That doesn’t mean every drow is evil. But it also doesn’t mean that the decision to make the evil elf race have dark skin wasn’t a problematic one (at best) and super racist at worst.
Every real-world culture has its associations with colors, but when we create a fictional world we’re building it in the context of our experience, it’s being interpreted in the context of the world we live in. So an American creator needs to consider that making “elves but black” a categorically evil race is going to contribute to the very real pain experienced by black people (not “blacks”) in America and Europe.
We also need to be cognizant when we discuss these things that we’re not contributing ourselves to these problems, especially if the people having the conversation are all (or even mostly) white.
That doesn’t mean every drow is evil. But it also doesn’t mean that the decision to make the evil elf race have dark skin wasn’t a problematic one (at best) and super racist at worst.
It's problematic because people want to make it problematic. You can find a problems in anything if you're always looking for them and racism has lost all meaning at this point thanks to how nonchalantly it gets thrown around! Making a dark-skinned race in a fantasy world with literally no ties to our world at all is neither of those things.
but when we create a fictional world we’re building it in the context of our experience,
Actually that's not always true unless you're going to explain to me how i experienced the vastness of space while i was working an entire set of drawings that explored the infinite of outer space, the celestial bodies of gods creating and constructing new universe. These aret things impossible for people to experience.
When we construct worlds, can we use our own experiences, yes but every world built isn't built based on the creators experience. This is shoe-horning the entirety of the creative endeavor into a singular idea of how it works
it’s being interpreted in the context of the world we live in.
And again, no. Worlds that a individual A builds regardless of how they choose to experience it. It might not always be but can more than likely be completely different from what the audience themselves interpret it. I believe this even more so now than ever after all the time And experience I spent in art show and critiques directly interacting with audience look at and asking questions about my work and hearing how they interpret it to be.
Even the most straight forward pictures can get interpreted differently than the creators intent.
On fact I'll tell you hilarious story of what happened to a friend of mine with at artist during their critique, so skip this part if you don't want to hear it.
So this friend whole body if work was him picking trash up of the ground and glowing/stapling/sticking it onto cardboard and had a lot of this. So during his critique one of the visiting artist told him he should be careful because and i kid you not, to her with all the card board panels stuck together. All with trash that was random placed on each cardboard (i know it was because i at one point was watching his process out of boredom). All came together to form a effing swastika. One that no one else but her could see it. She even tried to point out how to was formed with her finger and no one still didn't see it.
So an American creator needs to consider that making “elves black” a categorically evil race is going to contribute to the very real pain experienced by black people (not “blacks”) in America and Europe.
I don't... I can't... Just the freaking herculean level of mental gymnastics needed to come to this is amazing.
... Ok let's go back to irk here.. So you're saying my small independent comic "The Iron Mage" a story about dark skinned spell caster from the southern jungle covered continent that is basically ruled by a empire of Dark skinned, war/combat/strength loving empire that follows the law of "survival of the fittest", and that some of the atrocities that did during the 700 year war against another equally as power Dark-skinned tribe could make some people view them as evil. Is someone how going to hurt or " add to the pain" of, *insert whatever arbitrary group you like* despite the 99.9% chance that they more than likely will never know this comic exists.
We also need to be cognizant when we discuss these things that we’re not contributing ourselves to these problems, especially if the people having the conversation are all (or even mostly) white.
I can't even begin with everything wrong with this.
When a white person tells a black person how to properly discuss the subject of color. Kinda sums up everything one needs to know about social politics.
Kind of reminds me of that Pokemon "controversy" when Jynx was still black. And later was redesigned to purple due to questionable complains. Morale of the story: political correctness is the death of artistic freedom. *sigh*
Alright , I'm invoking our lovely moderator @JuliusBorisov . Julius , I believe this is becoming a polarized argument and losing the healthy aspect of a discussion , could you give it a check?
I have. I'm not happy with several recent comments. Generalizations are dangerous when you don't fully know who you are talking with.
If you think a certain post is not ok, please flag it.
I have. I'm not happy with several recent comments. Generalizations are dangerous when you don't fully know who you are talking with.
If you think a certain post is not ok, please flag it.
I'm not sure if it's a matter of flagging because the pollarization I see here is "Art is a reflex of real world issues" versus "It doesn't have to be" and it has already led to "I don't see it, so you must be wrong" , which is a sign that people are not listening to each other anymore .
I have. I'm not happy with several recent comments. Generalizations are dangerous when you don't fully know who you are talking with.
If you think a certain post is not ok, please flag it.
i'm not sure if it's a matter of flaggingbecause the pollarization I see here is "Art is a reflex of real world issues" versus "It doesn't have to be" and it has already led to "I don't see it, so you must be wrong" , which is a sign that people are not listening to each other anymore .
Ok, I'm interested now, where did the "i don't see it so you're wrong" come from
@DragonKing
"It's problematic because people want to make it problematic. You can find a problems in anything if you're always looking for them and racism has lost all meaning at this point thanks to how nonchalantly it gets thrown around! Making a dark-skinned race in a fantasy world with literally no ties to our world at all is neither of those things "
You are saying "it's normal" . You have the right to post your arguments and opinions, but the trap here is that, and it's been said before, structural racism is not easily measured. No one is going to put a gun over one's head for creating a universe where dark skin os evil, or where it has nothing to do with it at all, but denying that one's culture and society affects how he creates Art is an illusion. A racist society has racist values , and their art will reflect those values because Art is never neutral.
"But Drow have nothing to do with it".
Well, I've never asked whoever created them (was it Gygax?) why they came up with dark skin , have you? Neither do I care, because it's done already , 30 years ago, but if in 2019, a time where race and color prejudice has been discussed over and over and pointed out in several directions , a person says "you're totally wrong' ,the you're being defensive towards something you've naturalized. *You*'ve naturalized it, but it doesnt have to be silenced or simply tagged as "political correctness".
Literally your entire post in response to mine reads as “I don’t see the racism therefore it doesn’t exist and you’re ruining art for pointing it out.”
If that’s not what you’re trying to say, you’ll need to clarify.
I might be misunderstanding your meaning. Vikernes is a noted white supremacist who makes games with white supremacist overtones. What is the purpose of bringing him up here?
I'm genuinely curious if there are also folks out there which do view the Dark Elves of the WARHAMMER franchise as 'problematic' as well. They're all white and evil to the core - twisted from the forces chaos. Practically the same as Drow, only with a different paint job as finish.
The franchise has been around since 1983, but I've personally not yet met with someone who was offended by the maker's choice of their skin colour.
I don’t have the time at the moment to explain why it’s different when the depicted people share qualities of a real-world marginalized community, but I also don’t know nearly enough about Warhammer to comment on that specific example. I generally think it’s problematic to tie morality to an entire race or lineage of people, but that problem is more severe when that race is noticeably similar to a real-world oppressed race (even if people outside that community can’t see it).
@Dee: For the record, @DragonKinghas experienced anti-black racism against him in the past. He's aware it exists--he apparently just doesn't think it's related to art in the same way others do.
I have mixed feelings about the skin color thing regarding the drow. Normally I'd be suspicious of any fictional race that's inherently evil (blame biology, blame culture; whatever) and which happens to be dark-skinned that contrasts with lighter-skinned protagonists, but the drow don't really resemble real-life stereotypes:
1. They're elves, so they don't look much like any real-life ethnicity, and they have white hair as well, which only makes them look even different from RL humans
2. They're portrayed as physically and mentally superior to surfacers (they get stat bonuses in PnP and crazy MR in BG)
3. They're a matriarchal society (and you could complain about its portrayal, but that's a separate conversation)
4. They're extremely racist themselves, have a lot of ideas about their own racial superiority, and practice eugenics--which calls to mind the Nazis, who weren't particularly dark-skinned
5. They live underground
It's hard for me to complain about their skin color when they're so alien. "Pointy-eared black Nazi women beneath the earth" doesn't draw upon any RL racial stereotypes.
I might be misunderstanding your meaning. Vikernes is a noted white supremacist who makes games with white supremacist overtones. What is the purpose of bringing him up here?
I don't agree with him, but he is more like an tribalist that believes that different groups are adapted to different environments than someone that supports white supremacism. And note, for him i an not white due the fact that my hair is not blonde(was blonde as an young child) He remembers me an druid on his critique towards civilization and religions that put humans above nature.
I'm genuinely curious if there are also folks out there which do view the Dark Elves of the WARHAMMER franchise as 'problematic' as well. They're all white and evil to the core - twisted from the forces chaos. Practically the same as Drow, only with a different paint job as finish.
The franchise has been around since 1983, but I've personally not yet met with someone who was offended by the maker's choice of their skin colour.
Interesting. I din't knew much about warhammer. I know that there are some RTS and "gear playing games"(i can't consider most d3 clones as rpg's) on that universe
@Dee: For the record, @DragonKinghas experienced anti-black racism against him in the past. He's aware it exists--he apparently just doesn't think it's related to art in the same way others do.
I have mixed feelings about the skin color thing regarding the drow. Normally I'd be suspicious of any fictional race that's inherently evil (blame biology, blame culture; whatever) and which happens to be dark-skinned that contrasts with lighter-skinned protagonists, but the drow don't really resemble real-life stereotypes:
1. They're elves, so they don't look much like any real-life ethnicity, and they have white hair as well, which only makes them look even different from RL humans
2. They're portrayed as physically and mentally superior to surfacers (they get stat bonuses in PnP and crazy MR in BG)
3. They're a matriarchal society (and you could complain about its portrayal, but that's a separate conversation)
4. They're extremely racist themselves, have a lot of ideas about their own racial superiority, and practice eugenics--which calls to mind the Nazis, who weren't particularly dark-skinned
5. They live underground
It's hard for me to complain about their skin color when they're so alien. "Pointy-eared black Nazi women beneath the earth" doesn't draw upon any RL racial stereotypes.
And they practice slavery. Even those who din't read forgotten realms lore, only played BG2 knew that. "Slavery plays a large part in drow society and drow households usually have two or more slaves for each member. All unskilled labor in drow cities is carried out by slaves. "
@Dee: For the record, @DragonKinghas experienced anti-black racism against him in the past. He's aware it exists--he apparently just doesn't think it's related to art in the same way others do.
I have mixed feelings about the skin color thing regarding the drow. Normally I'd be suspicious of any fictional race that's inherently evil (blame biology, blame culture; whatever) and which happens to be dark-skinned that contrasts with lighter-skinned protagonists, but the drow don't really resemble real-life stereotypes:
1. They're elves, so they don't look much like any real-life ethnicity, and they have white hair as well, which only makes them look even different from RL humans
2. They're portrayed as physically and mentally superior to surfacers (they get stat bonuses in PnP and crazy MR in BG)
3. They're a matriarchal society (and you could complain about its portrayal, but that's a separate conversation)
4. They're extremely racist themselves, have a lot of ideas about their own racial superiority, and practice eugenics--which calls to mind the Nazis, who weren't particularly dark-skinned
5. They live underground
It's hard for me to complain about their skin color when they're so alien. "Pointy-eared black Nazi women beneath the earth" doesn't draw upon any RL racial stereotypes.
Thanks for the added context. I’m not about to tell someone how to interpret their own experiences in the context of gaming. I will say that I’m not just speaking for my own observations here; you might not agree with them but there are plenty of people (especially people of color and from other marginalized groups) who do see these problems and call them out. Just not, apparently, on Beamdog’s own forums.
Comments
@DragonKing
I understand that a color might be culturally attached to our preconceptions , and black represents in western culture Infinity and death for cultural reasons , but it can also be considered black because in the shadows humans have found and witnessed predators and dangers. On the other hand , darkness and shadows are the ideal setting for us to sleep , so we can't really say that our subconscious treats it as totally evil.
That said, let's go a bit further in history , specially in Europe where History was written by treating the white european man as a standard for "normal" , it is a terrible twisted version of the "black is bad because of death and shadows" promoted mostly by european christianism that extended it to people's skin color, as it contributea to dehumanization and we cannot ignore the fact that we still have such values in our culture where a white beautiful person is a "classic" whereas people of other skin tones are either "exotic" or "off-standards" . I strongly believe and repeat the writers and authors, people who study and observe the world around them, should go another way , dettaching evil from skin tone and relating it to other things such as culture, character, experience etc.
Talking about Drow of Forgotten Realms, then yes, they were always dark skinned elves by origins, since they were a gift made by Corellon to Araushnee (pre-Lolth elven goddess). After The Descent, it says that their dark skin took an obsidian -purplelike tone and they got cast out to Underdark by the casting of a divine ritual.
Before that, they used to live in the surface and they were called Ssri-tel-quessir. About alignment, not all of them were evil, some of them were good and even worshipped the dark elven goddess Eilistraee, which is also a dark skinned goddess and it's daughter of Corellon and Araushnee.
Caucasians wouldn't try to get some tan on their skin if it wasn't considered attractive.
Evil races, if you look at e.g. LotR or GoT, you'd notice that neither haradrim nor dothraki are particularly dark, it's their warpaint and makeup, along with dress and hair style, that symbolize allegiance to evil through being savage.
This is the thing I have always hated about D&D (which I clearly like D&D otherwise I wouldn't be here). This race is this alignment and that race is that alignment. I realize it is for game mechanics, but on the storytelling side of it alignment feels like racist undertones (especially when you get into Drow being evil skin-cursed creatures). It makes sense for demons/devils, but non-eschatological humanoids would have societies of all alignments if I were doing the writing.
China
"Black – Water: As surprising as this might seem, Water element is not represented by Blue, but with Black. Black color in Chinese culture is associated with destruction, evil, profundity, disasters, cruelty, sadness and suffering. It is bad fortune and must not be worn to auspicious occasions like weddings. The Chinese word for black is ‘hei’ which itself stands for bad luck, irregularity, illegality etc. Avoid using black in your brand marketing."
Black is a popular color in Japan for electronics and clothing. It mainly denotes non-being, mystery, night and anger. Calligraphy is usually done in black ink on white paper. As stated above, black and white are both colors of mourning in Japan. Wooden condolence gifts are often tied in envelopes stringed in black and white. Black in Japanese culture also denotes the hair and eyes. Many phrases consist of the Japanese word for black such as “clarifying between right and wrong “or “rolling one’s eyes in surprise, fright or anguish” etc. Black also denotes evil-hearted person.
https://www.color-meanings.com/color-symbolism-in-chinese-culture-what-do-traditional-chinese-colors-mean/
Black in India has connotations with lack of desirability, evil, negativity, and inertia. It represents anger and darkness and is associated with the absence of energy, barrenness, and death. Black is used as a representation of evil and is often used to ward off evil. This can be found in an age old custom amongst Indians where an infant or, for that matter, anyone looking really spectacular is often traditionally blessed with a little black dot on the chin or under the ear to ward off the evil eye. And while white stands for everything desirable in the west, in India it takes on a more somber connotation.
http://www.sensationalcolor.com/color-meaning/color-around-the-world/india-country-symbolic-colors-1935#.XRYzKBgXY0M
Egypt
In the ancient Egyptian era, the color black symbolized death and night on one hand and endurance and stability on the other. The Egyptians also associated black with resurrection and fertility because their cultivation was largely dependent on the rich dark silt that was abundantly deposited on the banks of the river Nile. Black was often associated with the thought of brining order from chaos. In the later periods of the ancient Egyptian civilization, healing stones were often made from black stones. Black dyes were prepared from carbon compounds like ground charcoal, burnt animal bones, soot and occasionally form an ore of manganese.
Anubis, the Egyptian god of dead, was portrayed as a black jackal. The Egyptian queen Ahmose-Nefertari, who was often worshipped by her subjects, was often portrayed with black skin.
Onyx, Obsidian, Ebony and Amethyst were a few of the semi-precious stones found in ancient Egypt
http://passionconnect.in/ArticleView?ArticleId=SYMBOLISM-OF-COLORS-IN-ANCIENT-EGYPTIAN-ART
I can keep going with this, I originally was going yo start going into Yoruba, Igbo, Nigerian where blacks represent things from evil and death to resurrection the literal reason I posted both a positive and negative symbolic and psychological meaning for each color and value because there are only a few cultures where a color or value of light and dark only represent one single thing and black represents death for more than just a western concept, it exist in some if not all of the oldest cultures on the planet.
That literally falls under the idea of death and the unknowing... Which I attributed to black in my post... I can't speak for you but most people view coming face to face with an apex predator the equivalent of coming face to face with their possible death.
I'm going to quote a bit of David ford here since he says this better than I ever could... Sleep is the cousin of death.
"During sleep, the conscious mind shuts down. Without consciousness, you can’t be aware of what you are thinking, and you have no sense that you can intervene in your own thought processes. Instead, your mind appears to proceed automatically, as if it is a machine, which is not how we ordinarily become aware that we have a sense of self.
A sense of self depends on having awareness of thought processes. You can identify thinking as being the thinking of the entity you think of as yourself. Without that awareness, there is no sense of self.
Death is another state where it appears that there is no sense of self. The body stops working, and there is no brain activity. Most people who have temporarily been dead report a complete absence of awareness during the time they were dead. This is not to be confused with the reports of traveling towards white lights or senses of merging with something safe and caring that loves them — experiences that happen in the last seconds before brain activity ceases.
So people say sleep is a cousin to death because there is no awareness of thinking when asleep, and it appears there is no thinking to be aware of when people are dead"
How about we don't go where I know this is literally about to go!
in history , specially in Chinese/Muslim/Japanese/Egyptian where History was written by treating the Chinese/Muslim/Japanese/Egyptian man as a standard for "normal"
Yes LITERALLY EVERY CULTURE ON EARTH did this until they were conquered by a more powerful force! When china conquer Japan, the Chinese man was put above the Japanese. When the Zulu conquered *insert culture* they put themselves on top. China technically still does it to the Taiwanese this is not and was not ever a White European only thing.
Except culture older than the idea of "white European man" did it even before they did.
But it doesn't...
It's almost like... The dominate creative force of x y z culture is going to its own idea of what beauty. Yet this seems to only be a problem I white dominate countries... Korea, Japan, china, India find their own standard of beauty to be themselves... But this is some how magically a bad thing in the states and Europe where whites are the most dominant.
Yes, that's every culture, ask any black person who travels to Japan, Korea or China... Ask any asian person. Who travels to Nigeria, Nubia, or Yoruba! When you ate not the normal in the place you visit you are exotic!
In fact lets use real world numbers to actually put this onto perspective!
The current population of the United States of America is 327,167,434 as of July 1, 2018
Based on https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045218/
Whites- 76.5%
Hispanic or Latino- 18.3% currently the second largest demographic in this country, beating blacks out... Oh I wonder why... Vast majority dominate the west to South west of the country.
Blacks- 13.4% and the majority of us are in the south - southeast of the country. Just based on those statistics alone even born and raised in the states we are still the anomaly to vast majority and there is a large majority of whites who statistically will never meet a black person.
Asian- 5.9% now we are no longer even in the double digits! A population so freaking small I didn't actually meet anyone of asian or oriental decent until I was actually in high school. Had her once for ROTC and never saw her again. Similar situation with a girl I was on middle school with whos family was Hindu. Didn't ever meet another person of that group in this country until I started dating my ex.
Two or more races- 2.7%
Mesoamerican or Alaskan- 1.3%
Hawaiian or other Pacific islanders- 0.3%
In where you aren't even half the freaking population, you are not the standard! You are not what the majority sees in everyday freaking life, that's FACT! Also, i'd rather be viewed as exotic then mundane or generic which is what you become who 70% of the population looks no different from you.
I have a dream that one day people will stop conflating ideas into more than what they really are! That something as mundane as a skin tone on a evil character won't be perceived as some bs systematic message about real world people! Especially when it is written in their lore or not written that the color of they're evil! I stand before you now... Ok I can't keep that up God I wanted to parody mlk jr speech so bad though lmao.
Clearly not in my continent , but we still hold values that came from those times , racism in aesthetics , mass culture and historical records is still real . I mentioned colonization because AFAIK dehumanization by color (and that's what it was , as a white person wouldnt be enslaved in the American continent, not under "normal" circunstances) as we know it did start with European colonization . It carries a legacy and because western society was no less racist 60 years ago . So what kind of cultural dominance are we talking about in modern times?
I an Brazilian, descendant of an relative poor baron(for noble standards during imperial times) with pale skin, born with blonde hair that turned dark after i growled up and is silly to think that the members of Orleans family born in Europe belongs to a different ethnic group than the members of the same family born here in US. If you look to "nazis", in order to enforce their "racial laws", a lot of subjectivity happened. For example, the Pomeranians born left of an artificial like was "aryan", right of an artificial line that changed a lot on history, was considered "slav".
With fantasy races, the same doesn't happens. Is very easy to distinguish an drow than an orc or an human than a mindflayer. And the skin color is not that much related to your "race" on D&D. An silver half dragon is so dragon as an silver red dragon despite his parents being exactly the opposite and "created" by different deities.
Ok? That literally changes nothing I said or anything that i was talking about. And again, i literally stated the U.S.A when I started to break things down. When dealing with 1 region or one set variables it literally doesn't matter what does or doesn't exist elsewhere because elsewhere is what was being discussed at that moment.
I'm looking for the point but I'm honestly not finding it, it has absolutely nothing to so with what i said.
What? I can't even begin to comprehend what lead you to this...
You are in Andromeda right now, i need you to come back to the milky way galaxy
I said back to our galaxy not further away!
Ok STOP! What are you replying to, give me some actual context here! What ever point you're trying to make isn't hitting the side of the barn because i see no connection point!
You can't be making some point towards my statement of color because i made no statement about or fAmily, or nazis! I was literal only talking the bare basics of color without going into Art mode and going into how light and color all work together.
You can't be referring to what @DJKajuru and myself talking about because even with what i said, neither of us said a sing thing about "racial laws" or "nazis" so i literally have no clue where you are coming from or going with this.
In the Forgotten Realms, the drow have the coloration they have as a direct result of their allegiance to Lolth. It’s magical, not biological.
That doesn’t mean every drow is evil. But it also doesn’t mean that the decision to make the evil elf race have dark skin wasn’t a problematic one (at best) and super racist at worst.
Every real-world culture has its associations with colors, but when we create a fictional world we’re building it in the context of our experience, it’s being interpreted in the context of the world we live in. So an American creator needs to consider that making “elves but black” a categorically evil race is going to contribute to the very real pain experienced by black people (not “blacks”) in America and Europe.
We also need to be cognizant when we discuss these things that we’re not contributing ourselves to these problems, especially if the people having the conversation are all (or even mostly) white.
As for attractiveness: everyone should know by now that green skin is by far the sexiest. Closely followed by blue and purple.
Actually that's not always true unless you're going to explain to me how i experienced the vastness of space while i was working an entire set of drawings that explored the infinite of outer space, the celestial bodies of gods creating and constructing new universe. These aret things impossible for people to experience.
When we construct worlds, can we use our own experiences, yes but every world built isn't built based on the creators experience. This is shoe-horning the entirety of the creative endeavor into a singular idea of how it works
And again, no. Worlds that a individual A builds regardless of how they choose to experience it. It might not always be but can more than likely be completely different from what the audience themselves interpret it. I believe this even more so now than ever after all the time And experience I spent in art show and critiques directly interacting with audience look at and asking questions about my work and hearing how they interpret it to be.
Even the most straight forward pictures can get interpreted differently than the creators intent.
On fact I'll tell you hilarious story of what happened to a friend of mine with at artist during their critique, so skip this part if you don't want to hear it.
So this friend whole body if work was him picking trash up of the ground and glowing/stapling/sticking it onto cardboard and had a lot of this. So during his critique one of the visiting artist told him he should be careful because and i kid you not, to her with all the card board panels stuck together. All with trash that was random placed on each cardboard (i know it was because i at one point was watching his process out of boredom). All came together to form a effing swastika. One that no one else but her could see it. She even tried to point out how to was formed with her finger and no one still didn't see it.
I don't... I can't... Just the freaking herculean level of mental gymnastics needed to come to this is amazing.
... Ok let's go back to irk here.. So you're saying my small independent comic "The Iron Mage" a story about dark skinned spell caster from the southern jungle covered continent that is basically ruled by a empire of Dark skinned, war/combat/strength loving empire that follows the law of "survival of the fittest", and that some of the atrocities that did during the 700 year war against another equally as power Dark-skinned tribe could make some people view them as evil. Is someone how going to hurt or " add to the pain" of, *insert whatever arbitrary group you like* despite the 99.9% chance that they more than likely will never know this comic exists.
I can't even begin with everything wrong with this.
If you think a certain post is not ok, please flag it.
I'm not sure if it's a matter of flagging because the pollarization I see here is "Art is a reflex of real world issues" versus "It doesn't have to be" and it has already led to "I don't see it, so you must be wrong" , which is a sign that people are not listening to each other anymore .
Ok, I'm interested now, where did the "i don't see it so you're wrong" come from
"It's problematic because people want to make it problematic. You can find a problems in anything if you're always looking for them and racism has lost all meaning at this point thanks to how nonchalantly it gets thrown around! Making a dark-skinned race in a fantasy world with literally no ties to our world at all is neither of those things "
You are saying "it's normal" . You have the right to post your arguments and opinions, but the trap here is that, and it's been said before, structural racism is not easily measured. No one is going to put a gun over one's head for creating a universe where dark skin os evil, or where it has nothing to do with it at all, but denying that one's culture and society affects how he creates Art is an illusion. A racist society has racist values , and their art will reflect those values because Art is never neutral.
"But Drow have nothing to do with it".
Well, I've never asked whoever created them (was it Gygax?) why they came up with dark skin , have you? Neither do I care, because it's done already , 30 years ago, but if in 2019, a time where race and color prejudice has been discussed over and over and pointed out in several directions , a person says "you're totally wrong' ,the you're being defensive towards something you've naturalized. *You*'ve naturalized it, but it doesnt have to be silenced or simply tagged as "political correctness".
If that’s not what you’re trying to say, you’ll need to clarify.
With pnp books, the same controversy won't happen. For example, on myfarog "The lighter the hair and the fairer the skin, the more blessed by the gods your character is. " http://www.metalsucks.net/2015/08/21/advanced-discrimination-dragons-critical-look-varg-vikernes-myfarog-rpg/
The franchise has been around since 1983, but I've personally not yet met with someone who was offended by the maker's choice of their skin colour.
I have mixed feelings about the skin color thing regarding the drow. Normally I'd be suspicious of any fictional race that's inherently evil (blame biology, blame culture; whatever) and which happens to be dark-skinned that contrasts with lighter-skinned protagonists, but the drow don't really resemble real-life stereotypes:
1. They're elves, so they don't look much like any real-life ethnicity, and they have white hair as well, which only makes them look even different from RL humans
2. They're portrayed as physically and mentally superior to surfacers (they get stat bonuses in PnP and crazy MR in BG)
3. They're a matriarchal society (and you could complain about its portrayal, but that's a separate conversation)
4. They're extremely racist themselves, have a lot of ideas about their own racial superiority, and practice eugenics--which calls to mind the Nazis, who weren't particularly dark-skinned
5. They live underground
It's hard for me to complain about their skin color when they're so alien. "Pointy-eared black Nazi women beneath the earth" doesn't draw upon any RL racial stereotypes.
I don't agree with him, but he is more like an tribalist that believes that different groups are adapted to different environments than someone that supports white supremacism. And note, for him i an not white due the fact that my hair is not blonde(was blonde as an young child) He remembers me an druid on his critique towards civilization and religions that put humans above nature.
Interesting. I din't knew much about warhammer. I know that there are some RTS and "gear playing games"(i can't consider most d3 clones as rpg's) on that universe
And they practice slavery. Even those who din't read forgotten realms lore, only played BG2 knew that. "Slavery plays a large part in drow society and drow households usually have two or more slaves for each member. All unskilled labor in drow cities is carried out by slaves. "
That is how the average drow looks on BG2 https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Drow
IMO nobody is trying to use Drow to portrait in a negative way any group IRL.
Thanks for the added context. I’m not about to tell someone how to interpret their own experiences in the context of gaming. I will say that I’m not just speaking for my own observations here; you might not agree with them but there are plenty of people (especially people of color and from other marginalized groups) who do see these problems and call them out. Just not, apparently, on Beamdog’s own forums.