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How do you feel about multiclasses from a roleplaying perspective?

I feel like the single classes are cohesive archetypes, but the multiclasses get weird.

A fighter is a fighter. A thief is a thief. But once you start getting into fighter/thieves that kind of dilutes the core concept, since you're drawing from both pools.

Sometimes I get more excited about multiclasses if I come up with a new archetype that meshes both. Like a mage/thief might be a Magician, with a robust "Bag of Tricks", equal parts slight of hand and legit magic.

When you multiclass a something like a mage/thief, do you tend to think of it just as somebody who's trained in both the arts of magery and thievery? Or do you try to mesh both concepts under a singular new banner?

JuliusBorisovgorgonzolaOrlonKronsteenBlackraven
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Comments

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,330
    Side Note. @subtledoctor's Might and Guile mod provides some multiclass kits that are very nice in terms of unifying the classes under a single banner.

    My favorite is the Fighter/Thief kit "Tomb Runner", which envisions your fighter/thief as an Indiana Jones type digging up ancient artifacts and stuff. You get Lore and bonuses against undead and Use Any (Magical?) Item early, but must fight one-handed, because you need your other hand free for examining relics, and cannot pick pockets.

    gorgonzola
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,330
    I mean, the classes are already the equivalent of somebody with more than one diploma at higher levels.

    A high level mage is not just versed in one school of magic, but many. A high level warrior has not just mastered one weapon, but many. A high level thief has trained in multiple thieving disciplines and so forth.

    A fighter/mage is more the equivalent of somebody with multiple diplomas and multiple black belts, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's different from a roleplaying perspective than merely being a scholar or an athlete individually.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    edited July 2019
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    I'm pretty heavily practiced in both religion (cleric)/ and in Ju-jitsu (monk).
    MC (Monk Cleric) this is an interesting multi! Sadly not easy to build using EEkeeper...
    I love how the game let RP a toon focused on one class, like Keldorn, change route retaining what he has learned, Anomen, and the down time has no RP sense, even if is needed to balance the power of dual class, or like Jan focus on 2 skill, progressing in them slower.

    To RP a single class has a high RP value, but i like also to play also the multi and triple class.
    The FMT is like some RL guys that are not the best in anything, but are really good in different things, lets say a scientist that is also very good at playing piano and in the weekends is rebuilding an old wooden sail boat.

    leeuxChronicler
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 839
    Chronicler wrote: »
    Sometimes I get more excited about multiclasses if I come up with a new archetype that meshes both. Like a mage/thief might be a Magician, with a robust "Bag of Tricks", equal parts slight of hand and legit magic.

    You perfectly captured what a mage/thief is to me in this description. As to your larger question, I definitely think of unified character concepts in this regard. A fighter/thief can range from being a dark-alley thug to an agent of justice that strikes from the shadows.

    Some classes don't mesh well together for me. Like the ranger/cleric, for some reason. I've given them a run and they're a hoot in terms of pure power, but to me the two classes just don't mix from a RP standpoint (this is a purely personal interpretation, btw). Ranger/druid would make sense to me. Cleric thief didn't work for me for a long time, but now I'm really into it for some reason. It's either a monk-like concept or a scholarly tomb raider, plumbing the depths to gain knowledge and/or riches for their church.

    ChroniclerAerakar
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 839
    @ThacoBell That is a very cool concept. It's actually giving me a hankering to play a ranger/cleric. Darn you, ThacoBell! I'm halfway through a paladin run. Now I'm not sure I want to finish. I swear, when I die I'm going to leave all my money to restartitis research.

    ThacoBellleeuxAerakarZaghoul
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,431
    Loves me some multi-classes. Mm-hmm, yep.


    Story-wise, they've got parts to play in the societies they're from, and I find are often representative of highly-trained individuals. Where a human fighter/thief could be either a street tough who got martial training or a soldier or former bodyguard who's resorted to breaking and entering or spy-work or something like that, a dwarven fighter/thief might be something entirely different. For example, the "vermin hunters" from a 2nd Edition sourcebook, or the "wayfinder" to name just a few. The human fighter or human thief could have trained for a handful of years and then picked up the other class either through formal training or "winging it" ("Hey, Thief Dude, wanna show me how to pick locks?"), while the dwarven fighter/thief spent probably half that human's lifespan (if not the entire thing) really honing and fine-tuning their skills.

    Mechanically, well, I like them because they're just so dad-gum versatile! And fun! Really gets my brain all a-workin' when I'm playing a cleric/mage, or that one shadowcaster/wight I once played. How can I make this work? What should I do? What shouldn't I do?

    ChroniclerAerakarThacoBellleeux
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    i have much more RP problems with the way dual class is implemented in the (BG) games.
    to dual class, so to focus on 2 different specializations as an adventurer, seems to me very logic and as the focus is not all on one of them to share the xp, so how fast you progress in them, seems fair.

    but i don't see any RP reason about how dual classing is implemented.
    let's say that someone start as fighter, so he learn how to use some weapons and constantly train himself in using them.
    then he decide to dual into mage, so all his whole effort and train is put into learning magic, and it is fine.
    but a split second after he decides to dual he not only loose all the skill he has gained training, he is not even able to use those weapons, all his combat knowledge, sharped reflexes, muscle memory and training is suddenly completely forgotten.
    but at a certain moment, after some time spent only training in magic he "magically" remembers all he had "magically" forgotten and is able to use those weapons again.

    i play guitar, but if i stop to train myself into it i don't loose the ability to play it. even if i stop to train and start to study rocket science the day after i am almost able to play it like the last day i was training in it.
    surely after some months that i don't train myself i loose some ability and i am no more able to play as well as when i was training constantly, but i retain some ability and it takes time.
    and i am pretty sure that after some months of rocket science study i will not regain the ability to play music as well as the last day spent studying music, the more time is elapsed from my last day of music training the worst i can play, and to become a good rocket scientist has nothing to do with it...

    i know that the down time has a balance reason, other way the high level duals would have been too powerful without paying the price for it, but if we are talking of RP perspective i should not play dual class characters while the multi ones seem to be completely fine for me.

    PsicoVicleeux
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 6,787
    I agree that the duaI-class mechanics are stupid. I don't see why a level 11 fighter dualed to level 1 mage is 'unbalanced'. The balance is never being able to gain any fighter levels again. A fighter who can cast magic missile is suddenly Superman? I don't get it...

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    @Balrog99
    the balance issue is not that a lev 11 fighter casting a MM is not balanced, but that a lev 13+fighter (GM and +1 apr from levels and a good thac0 dualed into something other is really powerful. it can be a very powerful mage that fight like a pro, maybe kitted, while getting plenty of high level spells, or can be a super thief with UAI and GM in staves (ryn-ram to stab and sotm to dispel on hit) and on and over.

    but at now he has to pay a price, the down time, to become so, he has to suffer to become so powerful.
    a kitted warrior does not really improve after lev 20 if not for the HLAs, but to trade them with a whole other class is surely worth. at xp cap a F20->M can reach level 23 mage, having GM and kit, that a dual does not have, without the down time would have been a super FM as DW and improved haste are a good alternative to GWW and the mage protections are better then hardiness. but without the down time he has to be baby sitted for a long time as he needs more then 4Mxp to go trough the very long down time.
    take out the down time and an extreme choice like that is much more viable as he remains a good fighter all the time, but gaining arcane power. and something between the lev 13 and lev 20 dual is even better as GM covers the thac0 gap compared to a dual and he can reach an even higher mage level.
    dualing at 16 he will reach 26 mage with a clear casting advantage compared to the multi that never goes over lev20 mage.
    and in a small party or solo it would be even more easy as soloing or with a small party you can not be baby sitted so easily.

    i am talking of bg2 as most of my experience is there, but also in bg or in the whole saga, including SoD, it is the same.

    do you get it now?

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 6,787
    edited September 2019
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    @Balrog99
    the balance issue is not that a lev 11 fighter casting a MM is not balanced, but that a lev 13+fighter (GM and +1 apr from levels and a good thac0 dualed into something other is really powerful. it can be a very powerful mage that fight like a pro, maybe kitted, while getting plenty of high level spells, or can be a super thief with UAI and GM in staves (ryn-ram to stab and sotm to dispel on hit) and on and over.

    but at now he has to pay a price, the down time, to become so, he has to suffer to become so powerful.
    a kitted warrior does not really improve after lev 20 if not for the HLAs, but to trade them with a whole other class is surely worth. at xp cap a F20->M can reach level 23 mage, having GM and kit, that a dual does not have, without the down time would have been a super FM as DW and improved haste are a good alternative to GWW and the mage protections are better then hardiness. but without the down time he has to be baby sitted for a long time as he needs more then 4Mxp to go trough the very long down time.
    take out the down time and an extreme choice like that is much more viable as he remains a good fighter all the time, but gaining arcane power. and something between the lev 13 and lev 20 dual is even better as GM covers the thac0 gap compared to a dual and he can reach an even higher mage level.
    dualing at 16 he will reach 26 mage with a clear casting advantage compared to the multi that never goes over lev20 mage.
    and in a small party or solo it would be even more easy as soloing or with a small party you can not be baby sitted so easily.

    i am talking of bg2 as most of my experience is there, but also in bg or in the whole saga, including SoD, it is the same.

    do you get it now?

    How is that any more powerful than a multi-class though? It's like they're gimping humans for no reason in my opinion.

    Edit: I reread your post and I see your point. At super-high levels you're right.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    true, at super high levels, but without down time and solo or in a small party would be a cakewalk to reach them.
    i also never learn and erase scrolls to shorten the dual time and for duals not into mage it is not even possible.

    this is the reason why even if i dislike for RP reasons how the dual classes are implemented i am glad that there is a down time and that the getting HLA is so delayed for high level duals.

    for duals at lower level, if dualing into mage and using the scrolls trick or dualing into thief and saving some quest XP i don't feel that the down time is so hard to survive so a human is not at a disadvantage.
    imoen or a charname F->M dualed at 9 or even 13 will be a much better caster then aerie or a multi FM, reaching lev 9 spells (improved alacrity...) much faster and without much down time hassle. probably they are about the same power level or maybe the human is even at a slight advantage right now.

    Balrog99
  • shabadooshabadoo Member Posts: 304
    edited September 2019
    The books explained it differently, way back when. The character didn't lose our forget their abilities, but were required to use all their energy into learning the new class without relying on the old skills. You still had, and could use those abilities, but there was some penalty of some sort i don't remember off the top of my head. Crpg's aren't capable off handling this "in between" situation, so we get all or nothing.
    EDIT: remembered that if you used abilities from old class then you received no xp for that encounter. Again because you were required to focus on the new class until equaled or exceeded the old one.

    Post edited by shabadoo on
    Aerakargorgonzolaleeux
  • Some multiclasses have logic for me, but restricted.

    A cleric/thief of Bane, Mask of Bhaal is not strage to me but a cleric/thief who worships Lathander is weird. (I'm playing BG with a Gnome Thief/Cleric of Urdlen
    A Fighter/Cleric of Moradin, Red Knight or Helm is not hard to explain imo.
    I don't get Ranger/Cleric multi's
    Mage/Cleric of Mystra or Deneir are ok too
    Mage/Thiefs are a bit overlapping with bards.

    Dual classing is nog uncommon in the FR books.
    Alicia Kendric is a fighter-Druid dual, in the later Moonshea books

    shabadoo
  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 749
    I think ranger-clerics are just fine. They can be just militant devotees of nature deities, like Chauntrea, Eldath or Mielikki. Those gods and their creatures are better worshipped in the wilderness, instead of in a closed temple full of books. Instead of reading theology books you go camping in the forest or the mountains to commune to your god.
    As a follower of good-aligned gods, you just patrol the wildlands and rural places taking care of the smallfolk, reaching out to the beasts and nature creatures that your god favored, and pursuing threats to the lands.

    leeuxgorgonzolaPermidion_StarkThacoBell
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,606
    I think the whole idea of having character classes in the first place is pretty daft so I am happy with any and every multi-class combination you can come up with because it allows you to create characters who are individuals rather than archetypes.

    gorgonzolaDanacmSkatan
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 854
    I think the whole idea of having character classes in the first place is pretty daft so I am happy with any and every multi-class combination you can come up with because it allows you to create characters who are individuals rather than archetypes.

    Thats why i feel the class-less rpg systems are better at charachter creating and use not uniformised characters like in baldurs gate. In bg every fighter has the same skills and traits only physical atteibutes maybe not match, but whats the difference between two 18-18-18 fighters ?

    Permidion_StarkDaevelongorgonzola
  • DaevelonDaevelon Member Posts: 599
    Danacm wrote: »
    I think the whole idea of having character classes in the first place is pretty daft so I am happy with any and every multi-class combination you can come up with because it allows you to create characters who are individuals rather than archetypes.

    Thats why i feel the class-less rpg systems are better at charachter creating and use not uniformised characters like in baldurs gate. In bg every fighter has the same skills and traits only physical atteibutes maybe not match, but whats the difference between two 18-18-18 fighters ?

    The luck to roll a 20 while fighting instead of 1 :D

    Danacm
  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 749
    edited September 2019
    Danacm wrote: »
    I think the whole idea of having character classes in the first place is pretty daft so I am happy with any and every multi-class combination you can come up with because it allows you to create characters who are individuals rather than archetypes.

    Thats why i feel the class-less rpg systems are better at charachter creating and use not uniformised characters like in baldurs gate. In bg every fighter has the same skills and traits only physical atteibutes maybe not match, but whats the difference between two 18-18-18 fighters ?


    That is why they created the "feats", "backgrounds" or dominions in the latest D&D editions.

    Danacm
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    edited September 2019
    Danacm wrote: »
    In bg every fighter has the same skills and traits only physical atteibutes maybe not match, but whats the difference between two 18-18-18 fighters ?
    let's say that one is a dwarven defender and the other is a kensay.
    try to use them in the same way and tell us the results... ;)

    Edit: kits bring difference, but they can also have different weapon proficiences, be single class, dual or multi.
    yes they are similar as are big strong guys specialized in bashing heads with big maces, but there are plenty of ways to build your fighters in the bg games.




    Danacm
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 854
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    Danacm wrote: »
    In bg every fighter has the same skills and traits only physical atteibutes maybe not match, but whats the difference between two 18-18-18 fighters ?
    let's say that one is a dwarven defender and the other is a kensay.
    try to use them in the same way and tell us the results... ;)

    Edit: kits bring difference, but they can also have different weapon proficiences, be single class, dual or multi.
    yes they are similar as are big strong guys specialized in bashing heads with big maces, but there are plenty of ways to build your fighters in the bg games.




    Thes are still archetypes, not uniqe characters. They have class but not personality and background in this system.
    Yes the later editions do it better.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,330
    You write the personality and background. That's not a part of the class, and I don't now why you'd want it to be.

    ThacoBell
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,330
    Like are you really gonna argue there's no difference in personality between Khalid, Kagain, And Shar-Teel?

    ThacoBell
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,280
    In response to the original question, I think that it's possible to understand why or how one can have two careers or change professions, on the other hand the game states quite clearly that a character may have spent quite a few years to become a fighter, a cleric, a mage or any other class, so it does seem easy that he would spend much less than that to switch professions . I agree with what had been done in later editions where a fighter 5/mage 5 has 10 class levels, there's still plenty of space cpr cheese but at least you won't see a fighter 7/ mage 8 having the same amount of xp of a 9th level mage.

    As for the next question that had been raised here about classes being "repetitive" let's just remember that DnD is medieval fantasy and its classes fit medieval archetypes, but background and personality allow you hundreds of different characters that originate from the same class.

    Chronicler
  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 749
    edited September 2019
    In this thread some people use the fighters as an example of lack of customization, that fighters are all alike, and to be honest, I have to agree up to a point. 2e warriors have very limited options to customize: the weapons of choice and little else (if we are talking game and combat mechanics, RP is limitless with any character).

    It is even worse because in most of the IE games you do not use skills besides thief skills or lore to identify items, so of course, all those characters look like the same. You do not have non-combat skills or skills that you can use in combat.

    But If you take a look at other classes that is not the case. An enchanter mage requires a different playstyle than a sorcerer-evoker. An assassin does not use the same tactics as a swashbuckler( One of them does not even have SA). You can use your bard as a ranged caster or as a melee blade with a focus on protection spells. You can have a cleric like Viconia or a cleric like Anomen or Branwen. You can play with your druid as a summoner, support your party with debuffs and healing or polymorph and do the killing yourself (You can even switch your spells to be both depending on the situation).
    And I did not even start with all the multi classes.

    Few customization options in 2e? Yeah. In warriors.

    Chroniclergorgonzola
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 854
    Chronicler wrote: »
    Like are you really gonna argue there's no difference in personality between Khalid, Kagain, And Shar-Teel?

    The old systems doesnt have flaws, adventages, traits, backgrounds to customize your character. Its not a fault, just the gaming systems evolve, become more advanced(or not :D there are bad systems nowdays too). Your character always be a fighter or an encganter of every other 5000 fighter or enchanter etc. There are only minor differencies, like what shield i use or what kit i choose same as spells, but thats not the difference of the character, just gear or spells.
    Finally not everybody likes the same systems, my opinion was just how good would be if have more to do with our character. Its not the how good would be a more interesring warrior action pool.
    Sorry for thats offthread.

    gorgonzola
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