My opinion on the TB/RtwP ; BG3/P:K/PoE debate
JuliusBorisov
Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
Hi, everyone!
RPG communities on several sites have had a rough time over the past week. I won't go into those arguments in this thread.
Instead, I wanted to share my opinion. I realized it just a few hours ago.
Isn't it great that suddenly RPGs become the centre of debate in gaming communities? Not monetization, not politics, but an approach towards RPGs? I couple that with us getting new RPGs in the next few years on top of what big companies like Bethesda, BioWare provide, and I come to a conclusion it's a great time to be an RPG fan.
P:K was a game from a new studio. Now their new game is getting much more funding on Kickstarter. PoE II was released just a few years ago. The BG title is getting a new life after years (you can count 4 years from SoD or 20 years from BGII, your choice). Disco Elysium got multiple rewards from numerous sites/magazines.
PCGamer did a poll where more than 33k people vote for the TB/RtwP mode - in RPGs. It's not a poll about FPS, it's an RPG poll which gets 33k+ votes.
All this inevitably means more RPGs will be created - other developers will notice the attention this debate is getting. And judging by how many requests are being done for either TB or RtwP games, make no mistake: more games are coming your way, whether you're a TB or RtwP fan.
In the nearest years, we're getting at least 2 RPGs for both camps: P:WotR and BG3. And all this feedback people keep sharing on their favourite gaming sites about expectations and wishes - it won't go unnoticed.
In the end, it'll mean more RPGs will be created because developers target audiences. After PoE II didn't get the same reaction as PoE, it looked for a moment that such RPGs have no future. But they do! And the recent attention to P:WotR and BG3 confirms it.
In the end, the player (of whichever mode they prefer) wins. Developers support each other, why fans do not do the same?
(The last tweet by Swen was retweeted by Josh Sawyer from Obsidian)
Peace!
RPG communities on several sites have had a rough time over the past week. I won't go into those arguments in this thread.
Instead, I wanted to share my opinion. I realized it just a few hours ago.
Isn't it great that suddenly RPGs become the centre of debate in gaming communities? Not monetization, not politics, but an approach towards RPGs? I couple that with us getting new RPGs in the next few years on top of what big companies like Bethesda, BioWare provide, and I come to a conclusion it's a great time to be an RPG fan.
P:K was a game from a new studio. Now their new game is getting much more funding on Kickstarter. PoE II was released just a few years ago. The BG title is getting a new life after years (you can count 4 years from SoD or 20 years from BGII, your choice). Disco Elysium got multiple rewards from numerous sites/magazines.
PCGamer did a poll where more than 33k people vote for the TB/RtwP mode - in RPGs. It's not a poll about FPS, it's an RPG poll which gets 33k+ votes.
All this inevitably means more RPGs will be created - other developers will notice the attention this debate is getting. And judging by how many requests are being done for either TB or RtwP games, make no mistake: more games are coming your way, whether you're a TB or RtwP fan.
In the nearest years, we're getting at least 2 RPGs for both camps: P:WotR and BG3. And all this feedback people keep sharing on their favourite gaming sites about expectations and wishes - it won't go unnoticed.
In the end, it'll mean more RPGs will be created because developers target audiences. After PoE II didn't get the same reaction as PoE, it looked for a moment that such RPGs have no future. But they do! And the recent attention to P:WotR and BG3 confirms it.
In the end, the player (of whichever mode they prefer) wins. Developers support each other, why fans do not do the same?
(The last tweet by Swen was retweeted by Josh Sawyer from Obsidian)
Peace!
Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
9
Comments
I am excited to see what lies ahead.
RPG: Role Playing Game (I know you knew that
P:K Pathfinder: Kingmaker
PoE/PoE II: Pillars of Eternity / Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire
BG/BGII: Baldur's Gate/Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn (I know you knew that too
TB: Turn Based combat
RtwP: Real Time with Pause combat
P:WotR: Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous
BG3: Baldur's Gate 3
~~
What I like about Wrath of the Righteous is that it will have both modes; RTwP & TB. I think this is how gaming companies should do it in the future to attract the biggest audience. It's easier to take a RTwP game and turn it into TB than vise versa however.
I like RTwP because it is more immersive. I like Turn Base because it is more casual. What any type of RPG should provide however is a compelling story to keep me motivated and playing.
I've already backed WotR. BG3 still hasn't passed the sniff test but I am leerily optimistic about it to the point where I recently picked up D:OS2 (Divinity: Original Sin 2) to allow myself to get an impression of Larian's craftmanship when it comes to making games.
It's a really difficult topic: PoE II and P:WotR don't have MP, while D:OS (Divinity: Original Sin - for smeagolheart) games (and BG3) do. What does attract the bigger audience: a game with 2 modes or a game with MP?
But then again - most likely this attention will result in creation of a RtwP game with MP one day.
Sure. Why not? The original BG had multiplayer. I don’t see why these games don’t except for a resource limitation or design choices.
I am also in the camp that RPGs are best enjoyed alone. Better immersion. But to each their own.
I think it's because developers and fans come at it from different angles. Developers (at least, if they're not in companies that are directly competing against each other) tend to view each other as kindred spirits, fellow artists trying to live the dream of making what they are passionate about as a living. Fans, on the other hand, are more of a mixed bag. I think a large part of the problem is that, just like with music or sports or books in real life, people like to form "tribes", communities that they want to see uplifted and made great. The best, even. Trouble is, in order to BE the best, that means that other communities must NOT be the best, that because the genres and combat systems and display modes are not the ones that YOU like, they therefore must be WRONG. And so, we get the arguments, the polarization, the divisions.
I tend to approach gaming as more of a journey; fans that I meet on communities such as these are like fellow adventurers, people with whom I swap stories with in a tavern, share tips and advice, and chat about our glorious adventures together. But, eventually, the call of adventure becomes strong again, and we leave the tavern to go on our next journey. Maybe we'll meet back at this tavern again, maybe we'll journey on to even further and stranger lands, never knowing when we'll be back this way again. But regardless, the one thing that drew us together was that same yearning for adventure and experience. I hope that others can see it the way I do, that just because we might not be keen on the same video game experience, it doesn't mean that the experience itself is wrong. It's far better to live in a world with great and diverse options, than in one without, because it means that there's always something new out there to discover.
The problem is respect. When you have a new developer take up the task of adding on to an existing ip, especially one with a hefty pedigree, they need to both understand what made the old games great, and respect the impact they had. Building on and improving what made them great in the first place. Some people are happy with the results, and some people. That's fine. That's valid.
The problem comes when people try to belittle those who disagree with them. "You shouldn't feel that way.""You have zero reason to be upset.""If you're not going to be positive, just don't talk.""You can't be a real fan if you like this."
These problems don't say "tribalism" to me. To me, this smacks more of people perceiving opposite views as a personal attacks. I'd say that in this specific case, people are huddling together because they feel attacked, not because they want to exclude someone else.
This is why I shared my opinion, @ThacoBell. Instead of feeling that way, I think a fan can expect other developers, other games to listen to fans' feedback and request. If you're not happy with what you're seeing now, most likely some developer somewhere will be able to make you happy in the future.
You are not being unheard, you exist, you're not being belittled. In the end, ask yourself: who should react to your thoughts and opinions: fellow gamers - or developers? What would you get from gamers? It's developers who can provide you with what you wish for.
Just look: you enjoyed PoE and PoE II. A lot of people enjoyed P:K. And a lot of people enjoyed D:OS. It's totally alright and those feelings are equal. Isn't it good that everyone can find something they can enjoy and will definitely find more games addressing their tastes in the future?
This is the world which we inhabit now. I wish that were not the case, but then I wish a lot of things that have happened would never have happened. This view goes far beyond video game design and now exists in almost every aspect of daily life.
Basically this. Not to mention all stupid TB bullying.
I think it´s good news that several studios are creating CRPG games of any kind and the appearance of kickstarter, patreon, etc that let some creators to have access to funding.
It´s a good time to be alive.
To be honest, the fan debate about a semi-niche (until now) like isometric CRPG games looks like two sides discussing the dirt in the rag when the house is on fire.
I would go so far as to say that I can envision P:WotR being the last cRPG that is truly a "good" cRPG relative to my preferences.
I don't think that's the case at all. It might revitalize the genre and get more people playing it, but both turn based and RTWP have been niche genres since the beginning. Larian's not a AAA developer and neither was Bioware back when they made the original games. Game engines are getting easier to use and toolsets keep getting better and cheaper, lowering the bar for small companies to break out in the industry if they provide something really interesting, like Owlcat for instance. With how vocal both the turn based and RTWP camps are, I don't think either is going away any time soon. If nobody releases a good RTWP game for awhile, somebody will eventually step up and make a game that succeeds when they realize there's a niche there they can make money off of. Others will see it's success and copy that for a bit. There are some neat looking RTWP games in development right now, like Solasta.
Where is this doom and gloom approach coming from? There were bunch of good RTwP games in the past couple of years and I'm sure there will be plenty more. Just because BG3 will be TB doesn't mean the genre is dead. There are toughly the same number of RTwP supporters out there than TB.
Solasta is TB.
Other than P:WotR, the only (fantasy) RTwP cRPG out there in development is Black Geyser, and that is the least known and least talked-about and smallest of the small indie cRPGs currently in development.
Obsidian and Owlcat are the only studios that have made RTwP cRPGs recently. I don't see Obsidian making a RTwP cRPG again anytime soon. That leaves only Owlcat. So my assessment is both sound and reasonable.
Oh, I thought it was RTWP. Either way, it's still only a matter of time before someone else decides they can get in on the niche that Owlcat keeps getting funding for. They did really well in kickstarter for wrath of the righteous and that sends a message that there's money in that niche.
I have no doubt whatsoever that if 90% of cRPGs had RTwP combat, all you TB fans would absolutely be angry about it and it would then become a red line for you in what games you choose to play. There is no mirror image equivalence here between those who prefer TB and who prefer RTwP, because games using those two systems are not 50-50 of the overall population of available cRPGs that one has to play.
Yes Owlcat did have a very successful KS campaign, and they are currently the ONLY sliver of hope I have left for being able to get RTwP cRPGs. But even there, this is how the realist in me sees things going:
Owlcat's first game - RTwP only; TB fans demand it be changed to TB but devs stay the course.
Owlcat's second game - RTwP but also a TB mode; TB fans grudgingly say ok, but TB not being what the game is balanced for is unacceptable and needs to be "fixed."
Owlcat's third game - TB only; TB fans finally win their war against RTwP fans.
Even funnier, my preference also flips between the two genres. I actually prefer tb the way jrpgs implement it, and real time the way western games implement it.
I don't think they'd risk it, why would they alienate their base? It wasn't too hard for them to get TB into wrath of the righteous, hell somebody just modded it into the first game in their spare time. So why not include it?
Perhaps. And obviously I very much hope you are right. I've just become very jaded with the whole gaming industry nowadays such that worst-case scenarios seem more likely to me than best-case scenarios.
Here's an example. Tower of Time is a RTwP cRPG from a few years ago. After it's release I promoted that game on every forum in which I am active, and obviously also bought the game (at full price no less). Recently its creator announced their next successor game. And guess what? It is exclusively TB. So me and others like me that supported them with their first game got thrown under the bus.
Not necessarily so. I love BG because of the story mostly. I would prefer it was TB (and v3.5, but that's a different argument), but don't cry scream about it, or refuse to play. It's the story, and the different play styles and paths available. It's a good game despite not hitting every single sweet spot for me. I'm not saying every TB fan is so flexible, but most are IMO.
yeah i remember not 10 years ago reviewers calling turn based games archaic when it came to jrpgs.