I haven't tested spell immunity conjuration, so my question was whether it stops the effect
You're right that would stop it (as would magic resistance, which is a realistic problem even without human intervention).
@Grond0 I tried SI: Conjuration with my solo Sorcerer in the Tier 1: Battle 4 of the Black Pits 2, against the lizard man shaman's Insect Plague (thinking in my mind that it was a brilliant idea), but as it happened, Insect Plague (to my surprise) penetrated through even that! Someone might like to confirm this, but I'm pretty sure it didn't work against Insect Plague.
That sometimes leads me to wonder if there is any way at all by which a mage can save himself against Insect Plague in the unmodded game. The only way I could defeat the lizard man shaman was by interrupting his spell-casting with a Magic Missile whenever I heard "Facio, Vocco, Ferre" (which, of course, enemy mages aren't smart enough to do ), but as it appears, once Insect Plague has been cast, there seems to be no way for a mage to stand against it.
@Rik_Kirtaniya I did check before my post that SI: Conjuration worked against Insect Plague in BG2EE. However, that's v2.5 - it wouldn't surprise me if that was different from earlier versions.
In my runs there are a couple of strategies I might use against IP in situations where I can't run away (like pocket plane challenges - it is possible to use summons to prevent the barrier from closing challenge rooms off, but I don't normally bother with that): - speed. IP has a very slow projectile and it's not at all difficult to keep running away from that. I remember one quite long battle where I was running round being chased by 2 swarms. - invisibility. For a mage, repeated use of the SotM may be able to keep you safe until you can cast again. That won't work of course against something like dragons, but distracting them with a summons while you get out of their sight will work in the unmodded game.
To be honest, unless there is something druids/shamans can use to dispatch *quickly* mages, I believe they are not contenders anymore at this stage.
The question I think comes down to: among the classes that can consistently kill a mage, which one is the fastest?
Someone said a mage would struggle to remove another mage's protections and require many turns. That is just not true: true sight and 1 breach is all you need 99% of the time. There are stronger spells than breach later on, but only 1 spell is required anyway. So a F/M is still in a position to very quickly, and in 100% of cases, kill mages.
Assassin is still fantastic (as well as F/T or M/T for similar reasons), however a critical miss or immunity vs backstab make it somewhat less consistent.
In practice, and with a team, the best way however is to use backstab every time it is possible, breach and weapons the rest of the time. With so many options in the game, disabling a mage is not relevant anymore, what matters is that mages do not have the time to cast anything before ending in a puddle of their own blood.
Any Thief/Fighter combo can have access to Critical Strike HLA, meaning that the initial backstab CAN be guaranteed, again why i claim FMT as the best. Can literally do everything, only drawback is slower to level, but then again they benefit from Traps, locks and scrolls for XP sources. I've lost count of the number of mages i've killed by zoning/running, re-hiding/SoTM, re-backstabbing, and that's not even utilizing the full power of the classes.
They can do everything, they have more HP's and better saves than Mage/sorcerer, so many ways to kill that every fight involves a CHOICE of exactly how you are going to slaughter everything. Do i pre-buff, backstab and melee my way through, do i chuck up some summons and interrupt from range, do i go full caster and blap em with spells, do i use super-items to disable/cripple??
I mean sure you can use IP as a druid, 1 6th level slot, but you can use 1 skull trap and unless protected any normal mage is dead w/o save, 3 in a sequencer and it's a room clearer unless you are on LOB, if you are on LOB you're not killing anything with Insect Plague alone, you'll need to do something in the region of 150 damage to kill most mages on LOB...Most effective killers are summons, for which the Druids Fire Elemental does deserve a notable mention, however Skeleton Warriors at 15th+ are only killable via Death spell/fog and a Planetar is ALWAYS a supreme killer thanks to it's chance to Vorpal hit. Incidentally the FMT with Axe of the Unyielding in TOB, plus a Planetar....ooooh my, makes you pause the game and just laugh like a maniac
Someone said a mage would struggle to remove another mage's protections and require many turns. That is just not true: true sight and 1 breach is all you need 99% of the time. There are stronger spells than breach later on, but only 1 spell is required anyway. So a F/M is still in a position to very quickly, and in 100% of cases, kill mages.
I see it the same way, but I still prefer the Inquisitor.
With a
1) potion of invisibility/sand thief ring, 2) a good mage killer weapon (Balas axe, FoA etc.) not even mentioning Carsomyr.. 3) working in tandem with true sight and 4) dispel magic
I find that most mage fights in vanilla are trivialized that way. The dispel magic is cast at double the caster level, meaning that a level 9 inquisitor potentially can take on a epic level mage. SCS may change that, but in vanilla it works quite well
Any Thief/Fighter combo can have access to Critical Strike HLA, meaning that the initial backstab CAN be guaranteed, again why i claim FMT as the best. Can literally do everything, only drawback is slower to level, but then again they benefit from Traps, locks and scrolls for XP sources. I've lost count of the number of mages i've killed by zoning/running, re-hiding/SoTM, re-backstabbing, and that's not even utilizing the full power of the classes.
They can do everything, they have more HP's and better saves than Mage/sorcerer, so many ways to kill that every fight involves a CHOICE of exactly how you are going to slaughter everything. Do i pre-buff, backstab and melee my way through, do i chuck up some summons and interrupt from range, do i go full caster and blap em with spells, do i use super-items to disable/cripple??
I mean sure you can use IP as a druid, 1 6th level slot, but you can use 1 skull trap and unless protected any normal mage is dead w/o save, 3 in a sequencer and it's a room clearer unless you are on LOB, if you are on LOB you're not killing anything with Insect Plague alone, you'll need to do something in the region of 150 damage to kill most mages on LOB...Most effective killers are summons, for which the Druids Fire Elemental does deserve a notable mention, however Skeleton Warriors at 15th+ are only killable via Death spell/fog and a Planetar is ALWAYS a supreme killer thanks to it's chance to Vorpal hit. Incidentally the FMT with Axe of the Unyielding in TOB, plus a Planetar....ooooh my, makes you pause the game and just laugh like a maniac
Geez, you really make me want to run a solo FMT...
Ahh, I thought you were playing with SCS, Durmir: you had made mention of fireshields blocking insect plague which is a SCS component. If you’re playing vanilla, a mage is pretty good at magekilling since the AI has 0 idea of what it’s doing. Try taking a mage vs the triple Yuanti battle in the Planar Prison or the Drow wizards or Irenicus in SCS... there’s no way you’re landing a Breach before the first 5 rounds, and breaching the Yuanti isn’t even a guarenteed victory. Or send a Mage vs a lich in SCS and get back to me on how easy it was.
Ahh, I thought you were playing with SCS, Durmir: you had made mention of fireshields blocking insect plague which is a SCS component. If you’re playing vanilla, a mage is pretty good at magekilling since the AI has 0 idea of what it’s doing. Try taking a mage vs the triple Yuanti battle in the Planar Prison or the Drow wizards or Irenicus in SCS... there’s no way you’re landing a Breach before the first 5 rounds, and breaching the Yuanti isn’t even a guarenteed victory. Or send a Mage vs a lich in SCS and get back to me on how easy it was.
I'm not playing SCS. I am playing vanilla Steam EE. I mentioned the shield because that's what a google search gave me (too lazy to test it in game), that's why I did not challenge further the "unblockability" of IP, although others have done so.
For all I can tell, my wizards have no issue breaching the hell out of everything.
Breach is blocked by: Spell Deflection, Spell Turning, minor versions of both, Spell Trap, Spell Shield, Improved Invisibility. True seeing is blocked by Spell Immunity:Divination, and Dispel Magic by SI: Abjuration. With this setup, a mage has to spend 4 spells at least to break through: one for the Spell Shield, one for Spellstrike, one for True Seeing, and then finally a Breach. With Improved Alacrity and the Robe of Vecna/Amulet of power, you can do all this still in one round, but it takes two level 9 spells, so a F/M can’t do this until past 6m experience, and a mage or sorcerer at around 3m has to burn all their 9ths to break through easily. Without IA, it takes at minimum 4 rounds and if you don’t have Spellstrike, a heck of a lot longer. Second best is probably Spell Thrust/Secret Word (for the Spell Shield), Pierce Shield (the only other way to break Spell Trap), Khelben’s Warding Whip, a second Khelben’s warding whip, (to take down the Spell Turnings and Deflections), Spell Thrust, (Takes down all the Spell Immunities FINALLY.) True Sight to remove Improved Invisibility, and Breach. So without Spellstrike, you need minimum 7 spells to break these defenses, and your opponent is still casting spells the entire time.
So yeah, vanilla, mage vs mage is pretty fast and easy. Played at the top of their game with a good AI? It’s 3 dimensional chess that spells doom with a single misstep. Vanilla SoD has a pretty good example of this is Hephernaan: if he sets up normally, he’ll have a Blade Barrier, Minor Spell Turning, Improved Invisibility, and SI:Divination running if I remember correctly. To get through to that wretched Blade Barrier, a mage has to spend 4 rounds of pain while a druid/shaman chortles and casts Insect Plague at a summon to completely nullify a high level M/C. Granted, that Blade Barrier is still an issue, but Hephernaan’s gonna run out of Stoneskins pretty quickly from the Insect Plague and after that physical damage is easily enough to break him.
My "Breach", as I have not explain I admit, is the very classic "Breach + Pierce Magic + Lower Resistance" spell trigger every respectable mage should use. And as I said, true sight is indeed necessary as a pre-buff (put it in your chain contingency if you must). Please note if you want to go even further, replace Lower Resistance with Secret Word, although it is very rarely necessary.
For 80% of a normal walkthrough, Breach is enough as you will not really meet a mage that requires more. For the rest, Pierce Magic will take care of the rest. In the vanilla game, I cannot think of anything for which this is insufficient, but usually a physical fighter finishes off the mage. I do not believe indeed that pure mage is ideal to take down another mage, and I have never pretended so. But with F/M, breach (spell trigger if you want) is all you need after True sight.
I am focusing on vanilla game here. With mods or against a well-prepared human-played mage, this is a very different story. Please feel free to list enemies against which 1 round of spellcasting (post true sight that again, you can stick in a contingency) is not enough for a F/M, I am genuinely interested.
EDIT: once again, IP does not prevent the trigger of contingencies. The only mean after IP to kill a mage for a druid is to throw fire seeds at a summon close to the mage. It takes so long that druids are just not relevant anymore in the race to "best mage killer".
At early levels, mages barely have protection, you just have to put an axe through his face.
Killing mages consistently and quickly, from lvl1 to lvl40, is best done by F/M, although I admit F/M is not always optimal. Inquisitors or assassins can be better at times, for instance.
When mages start usung annoying prot spells, the F/M already has Breach and from there it is fine.
But yeah, I get your point: mages are stupid enough so almost anything works. Hence the: "strip the defenses and slice the wizard" approach as being the best in vanilla game. Then depending on mods it changes.
In human vs human, my mage would have full contingencies on mass skull traps on sight + spell triggers on skull traps, effectively throwing 7 skull traps at you the moment you see me (or not, if you are a druid for instance, with summons in front of you, you will actually melt before you even see me). But then again, if you are a mage you may have some prots on yourself, etc.
You can easily say everything and nothing when not vanilla. And vanilla makes it solely a matter of how fast you get the job done.
@semiticgod I did use WS->Druid but I never went end game with it. What are your strategies/thoughts on following topics
Liches/Powerful Mages tend to have PFMW (and one extra in the contigency), kangaxx has undispellable fire red/blue shields that last very very long. Which means even if you lock them out you need to wait those out. Do you tend to just cast spells or use summon to do aoe damage with fire seeds.
How do you deal with short duration/amount of seeds. Do you MOD this? Some people mod it to 999 stacks or place it in bag of holding.
How do you deal with sustained damage, do you go Iron Skins in Melee (dangerous in SCS/Ascension as bosses and planetars have dispel on hit) or ranged with throwing daggers. Or 90% resistant earth elemental shapeshifting.
If playing in party, how do you protect other members from suffering the effects? Do you wait before running in or play non-mage heavy frontline like Shapeshifting Druids/Paladins/Clerics/DD?
That "Breach/Lower Resistance/Pierce Magic" hits a Spell Shield and Spell trap and... gives the opposing Lich 11 spell levels back. Huzzah.
I can't consider something to be a good magekiller if the techniques don't work against the best AI we have. It's a very bad spellcaster killer that can't deal with a decently controlled one. The other strategies presented above also have some of the same pitfalls: Insect Plague was considered so good a mage killer it was straight-up nerfed by SCS to be blocked by Fireshields, mages generally have Stoneskin prebuffed so backstabs don't work well, Inquisitors are blocked by a single Spell Immunity:Abjuration, and standard Wizard Slayers have a hard time vs Liches with PfMW. (Normal spellcasters can just be hit with normal ammunition and still apply spell failure.)
The ONLY consistent, unblockable magekilling techniques we've seen so far in SCS is the Wizard Slayer -> Druid dual courtesy of Fire Seeds, and a prolonged battle of Wizard Chess. Out of SCS, almost anything works and it becomes a time battle, but for sheer consistency I have to give my votes to WS -> Druid with a distant second place of Mage/Sorcerer simply because while possible, it's complicated as heck to pull off perfectly.
My "Breach", as I have not explain I admit, is the very classic "Breach + Pierce Magic + Lower Resistance" spell trigger every respectable mage should use. And as I said, true sight is indeed necessary as a pre-buff (put it in your chain contingency if you must). Please note if you want to go even further, replace Lower Resistance with Secret Word, although it is very rarely necessary.
For 80% of a normal walkthrough, Breach is enough as you will not really meet a mage that requires more. For the rest, Pierce Magic will take care of the rest. In the vanilla game, I cannot think of anything for which this is insufficient, but usually a physical fighter finishes off the mage.
There are cases in the vanilla game where this is not enough, because the mage might kill you before you killed him. Maze, Finger of Death, Dispell Magic and Imprisonment are all dangerous, especially if you do not meta-game enough to know exactly what to expect from the specific mage you are facing.
I know because my fighter/mage found himself suddenly dead against Rayic Gethras in a no-reload game. I learned to respect that guy the hard way.
A good mage killer is not only able to kill fast, but also has a watertight defense. With Insect Plague you not only kill the mage, but you also defend yourself against nasty surprises. The wizardslayer/druid does it even more effectively. IIRC there is a subquest for Neera that involves a room full of mages? Not sure tbh, because I can't stand Neera and avoid anything to do with her like the plague, but that's another topic.
If the mage kills you before you kill him, it means you did a mistake. SI of the corresponding school should always be cast prior to mage vs mage.
Even then, staff of the magi is a lifesaver for these situations with no need to cast anything. Just swap it in, kthxbye. There are so many ways to protect you...
In vanilla Rayic and the likes are just not capable to go through a F/M. The whole thing about a F/M is precisely to have a watertight defense when you go to battle. The enemy dies fast enough not to be an issue with combinations of spells... Plus, as a F/M, I guess you were a gnome, and your saving throws should make you immune to finger of death...
Druids are just not fit to systematically, and more importantly quickly, kill mages. IP is useless against the most powerful mages in the game, starting with liches that are downright immune to it.
I mean sure you can use IP as a druid, 1 6th level slot, but you can use 1 skull trap and unless protected any normal mage is dead w/o save, 3 in a sequencer and it's a room clearer unless you are on LOB, if you are on LOB you're not killing anything with Insect Plague alone, you'll need to do something in the region of 150 damage to kill most mages on LOB...
I feel you underestimate how early in the game Druids become perfect mage killers. Insect plague is spell level 5, not 6. You can start casting it from character level 9. Because of the weird druid xp curve you reach this point at 90.000 xp. That means: before the end of BG1, or immediately at the start of the game in BG2. So a brand new druid can take on Elminster and win.
As you said, a skull trap will often instantly kill a mage at that point in the game, IF he doesn't make his save. But that's a coin toss. And even if he doesn't make the save, it is not guaranteed in my experience, a mage will sometimes survive this, even if barely. A spell sequencer with 3xskulltrap is an instant mage kill, but when does a f/m/t learn his first level 7 spell? Very late in BG2, I think?
@Durmir46 "To be honest, unless there is something druids/shamans can use to dispatch *quickly* mages, I believe they are not contenders anymore at this stage."
Hahaha, what? What makes Druids *slow* at killing mages? Mages are slow at killing other mages, as all of the others spell protections need to be dispelled first, that can take MINUTES. Druids can straight up bypass all of that. Insect plague+Fireseeds+Done.
I mean sure you can use IP as a druid, 1 6th level slot, but you can use 1 skull trap and unless protected any normal mage is dead w/o save, 3 in a sequencer and it's a room clearer unless you are on LOB, if you are on LOB you're not killing anything with Insect Plague alone, you'll need to do something in the region of 150 damage to kill most mages on LOB...
I feel you underestimate how early in the game Druids become perfect mage killers. Insect plague is spell level 5, not 6. You can start casting it from character level 9. Because of the weird druid xp curve you reach this point at 90.000 xp. That means: before the end of BG1, or immediately at the start of the game in BG2. So a brand new druid can take on Elminster and win.
As you said, a skull trap will often instantly kill a mage at that point in the game, IF he doesn't make his save. But that's a coin toss. And even if he doesn't make the save, it is not guaranteed in my experience, a mage will sometimes survive this, even if barely. A spell sequencer with 3xskulltrap is an instant mage kill, but when does a f/m/t learn his first level 7 spell? Very late in BG2, I think?
Lvl 14 actually, long before annoying mages show up.
Quick question: can you define your definition of "perfect mage killer"? Because druids are super slow to do this, and they will just plain fail at it against the most powerful mages. I mean, IP does not even bypass MR...
@Durmir46 "To be honest, unless there is something druids/shamans can use to dispatch *quickly* mages, I believe they are not contenders anymore at this stage."
Hahaha, what? What makes Druids *slow* at killing mages? Mages are slow at killing other mages, as all of the others spell protections need to be dispelled first, that can take MINUTES. Druids can straight up bypass all of that. Insect plague+Fireseeds+Done.
Dude, you should read the thread before coming in like that. With dispelling spell triggers, it is almost instant to dispel. At least mages CAN dispel systematically other mages' defenses, they do not solely rely on 18 IP damage + nuking their own summons with fire seeds... Druids are some of the lowest damage dealing classes in the game, and their inability to use anything else than IP (against which, again, the most powerful mages are immune to) and fire seeds. I'd love to see a lich vs druid fight. Not to assess how fast the druid kills the lich, but to see how fast the lich feeds upon the druid's broken body. Do not get me started on the demi-lich.
I mean sure you can use IP as a druid, 1 6th level slot, but you can use 1 skull trap and unless protected any normal mage is dead w/o save, 3 in a sequencer and it's a room clearer unless you are on LOB, if you are on LOB you're not killing anything with Insect Plague alone, you'll need to do something in the region of 150 damage to kill most mages on LOB...
I feel you underestimate how early in the game Druids become perfect mage killers. Insect plague is spell level 5, not 6. You can start casting it from character level 9. Because of the weird druid xp curve you reach this point at 90.000 xp. That means: before the end of BG1, or immediately at the start of the game in BG2. So a brand new druid can take on Elminster and win.
As you said, a skull trap will often instantly kill a mage at that point in the game, IF he doesn't make his save. But that's a coin toss. And even if he doesn't make the save, it is not guaranteed in my experience, a mage will sometimes survive this, even if barely. A spell sequencer with 3xskulltrap is an instant mage kill, but when does a f/m/t learn his first level 7 spell? Very late in BG2, I think?
If you start a FMT at 89,000 xp in SOA you can steal enough scrolls to reach over 3m total xp, the only fights you need to get past are the scripted ones that are triggered when moving between zones and they can be avoided if you want via hide in shadows, although there's a few items and some scrolls to be had so i usually kill anyway.
After that it's simply a case of completing the CC so you get the 2nd barkeeper with the improved selection of items and some 7/8th level scrolls including, if i am not mistaken, spell trigger. From that point it's not much to unlock 7th level spells as a solo FMT, plenty of easy quests if you want to do it w/o more scrolls, if you want more scrolls can do Trademeet and clean out the Watchers Keep NPC, although worth noting you have to buy WK scrolls, cannot steal those ones.
Now i grant you it's a bit hit and miss with scroll drops, but my point is you can easily be casting 7th level spells before ANY challenging encounters even as a FMT.
@semiticgod I did use WS->Druid but I never went end game with it. What are your strategies/thoughts on following topics
Liches/Powerful Mages tend to have PFMW (and one extra in the contigency), kangaxx has undispellable fire red/blue shields that last very very long. Which means even if you lock them out you need to wait those out. Do you tend to just cast spells or use summon to do aoe damage with fire seeds.
How do you deal with short duration/amount of seeds. Do you MOD this? Some people mod it to 999 stacks or place it in bag of holding.
How do you deal with sustained damage, do you go Iron Skins in Melee (dangerous in SCS/Ascension as bosses and planetars have dispel on hit) or ranged with throwing daggers. Or 90% resistant earth elemental shapeshifting.
If playing in party, how do you protect other members from suffering the effects? Do you wait before running in or play non-mage heavy frontline like Shapeshifting Druids/Paladins/Clerics/DD?
1. In SCS, mages can have PFMW in a pre-buff, contingency, and Spell Trigger, which amounts to 12 rounds of invulnerability. When I fought Kangaxx and the other liches with my Wizard Slayer/Druid, I just spent 72 seconds marveling at the liches' impotence. I didn't bother having another party member cast debuffing spells to make them vulnerable quicker. For other mages besides liches with PFMW, or normal mages with SCS Absolute Immunity, I just used nonmagical darts or darts from the Cloak of Stars to bypass PFMW or Improved Mantle to kill them earlier. 2. You don't need very many Fire Seeds, and the duration (30 or 40 rounds) is fine for one fight. Wizard Slayer spell failure lasts for 60 seconds, so all you really need is to land 8 hits: 4 of them early, and then another after a few rounds (unless it's not an SCS lich with multiple unbreakable PFMW spells, in which can you'd only need 4 at most). I still used an exploit for large amounts of permanent Fire Seeds, but it's not actually necessary. 3. I don't use druids for tanking until they hit epic levels and get Earth Elemental Form. Either way, this is outside the discussion; this thread is only about bringing down wizards. 4. My mages are always a certain distance away from the enemy, which means they never suffer from the spell failure. Even if they did, I don't really need their spells to win lich fights if I'm using a Wizard Slayer/Druid.
@Durmir46 "To be honest, unless there is something druids/shamans can use to dispatch *quickly* mages, I believe they are not contenders anymore at this stage."
Hahaha, what? What makes Druids *slow* at killing mages? Mages are slow at killing other mages, as all of the others spell protections need to be dispelled first, that can take MINUTES. Druids can straight up bypass all of that. Insect plague+Fireseeds+Done.
Dude, you should read the thread before coming in like that. With dispelling spell triggers, it is almost instant to dispel. At least mages CAN dispel systematically other mages' defenses, they do not solely rely on 18 IP damage + nuking their own summons with fire seeds... Druids are some of the lowest damage dealing classes in the game, and their inability to use anything else than IP (against which, again, the most powerful mages are immune to) and fire seeds. I'd love to see a lich vs druid fight. Not to assess how fast the druid kills the lich, but to see how fast the lich feeds upon the druid's broken body. Do not get me started on the demi-lich.
Creeping doom for liches. The unmodded demilich doesn't even get to cast any spells (despite being an archmage), only spams his two abilities over and over again, and is easily fooled by a protection scroll. (someone actually wrote a '50 ways to kill Kangaxx' song years ago...)
I suggest you try your f/m against the improved Kangaxx from scs, who actually gets to cast spells, as befitting an archmage. Because so far, the wizard slayer/druid is the only one I can agree has a foolproof strategy against him.
I want to see that. Considering liches' MR I bet you have to reload more than once befire landing anything. And that's still true for many of the most powerful mages. If only you had a spell like "Lower Resistance"...
EDIT: oh, and Kangaxx is downright immune to creeping doom x)
I want to see that. Considering liches' MR I bet you have to reload more than once befire landing anything. And that's still true for many of the most powerful mages. If only you had a spell like "Lower Resistance"...
Standard liches (and demiliches) have no magic resistance. In the unmodded game a single PfU scroll is anyway sufficient to kill them (though some classes can struggle to overcome Kangaxx's regeneration and physical resistances), so there's no real need for a mage-killer against them.
@Durmir46 "To be honest, unless there is something druids/shamans can use to dispatch *quickly* mages, I believe they are not contenders anymore at this stage."
Hahaha, what? What makes Druids *slow* at killing mages? Mages are slow at killing other mages, as all of the others spell protections need to be dispelled first, that can take MINUTES. Druids can straight up bypass all of that. Insect plague+Fireseeds+Done.
Dude, you should read the thread before coming in like that. With dispelling spell triggers, it is almost instant to dispel. At least mages CAN dispel systematically other mages' defenses, they do not solely rely on 18 IP damage + nuking their own summons with fire seeds... Druids are some of the lowest damage dealing classes in the game, and their inability to use anything else than IP (against which, again, the most powerful mages are immune to) and fire seeds. I'd love to see a lich vs druid fight. Not to assess how fast the druid kills the lich, but to see how fast the lich feeds upon the druid's broken body. Do not get me started on the demi-lich.
Creeping doom for liches. The unmodded demilich doesn't even get to cast any spells (despite being an archmage), only spams his two abilities over and over again, and is easily fooled by a protection scroll. (someone actually wrote a '50 ways to kill Kangaxx' song years ago...)
I suggest you try your f/m against the improved Kangaxx from scs, who actually gets to cast spells, as befitting an archmage. Because so far, the wizard slayer/druid is the only one I can agree has a foolproof strategy against him.
I want to see that. Considering liches' MR I bet you have to reload more than once befire landing anything. And that's still true for many of the most powerful mages. If only you had a spell like "Lower Resistance"...
EDIT: oh, and Kangaxx is downright immune to creeping doom x)
Not to Fire Seeds (which count as +6 weapons). Also he has no fire resistance, so it would take only a few of those to kill him (since in the Demilich Form, he has only 50 HP).
Also, why would you even bother using Lower Resistance against liches, since they are downright immune to it (and Breach, and all spells below level 6 as well)? (And more so because it is totally unnecessary as liches have zero MR )
I want to see that. Considering liches' MR I bet you have to reload more than once befire landing anything. And that's still true for many of the most powerful mages. If only you had a spell like "Lower Resistance"...
Standard liches (and demiliches) have no magic resistance. In the unmodded game a single PfU scroll is anyway sufficient to kill them (though some classes can struggle to overcome Kangaxx's regeneration and physical resistances), so there's no real need for a mage-killer against them.
Except using scrolls is cheese. And cheese disqualifies here... precisely because 1) everybody can do it, rendering it non-relevant 2) then it opens the door to a big world of WTF
Plus, even with a scroll you may find yourself unable to kill him!!! It's the only class I can think of in that case, but even with fire seeds, considering Kangaxx' high hp regen, your rolls may prevent you from killing him entirely!
And I cannot confirm regarding liches' MR, but even with none, you're gonna have a baaaad time. Especially if the lich starts with time stop as it usually does, because CD will never habe the time to reach it! X)
@Durmir46 "To be honest, unless there is something druids/shamans can use to dispatch *quickly* mages, I believe they are not contenders anymore at this stage."
Hahaha, what? What makes Druids *slow* at killing mages? Mages are slow at killing other mages, as all of the others spell protections need to be dispelled first, that can take MINUTES. Druids can straight up bypass all of that. Insect plague+Fireseeds+Done.
Dude, you should read the thread before coming in like that. With dispelling spell triggers, it is almost instant to dispel. At least mages CAN dispel systematically other mages' defenses, they do not solely rely on 18 IP damage + nuking their own summons with fire seeds... Druids are some of the lowest damage dealing classes in the game, and their inability to use anything else than IP (against which, again, the most powerful mages are immune to) and fire seeds. I'd love to see a lich vs druid fight. Not to assess how fast the druid kills the lich, but to see how fast the lich feeds upon the druid's broken body. Do not get me started on the demi-lich.
Creeping doom for liches. The unmodded demilich doesn't even get to cast any spells (despite being an archmage), only spams his two abilities over and over again, and is easily fooled by a protection scroll. (someone actually wrote a '50 ways to kill Kangaxx' song years ago...)
I suggest you try your f/m against the improved Kangaxx from scs, who actually gets to cast spells, as befitting an archmage. Because so far, the wizard slayer/druid is the only one I can agree has a foolproof strategy against him.
I want to see that. Considering liches' MR I bet you have to reload more than once befire landing anything. And that's still true for many of the most powerful mages. If only you had a spell like "Lower Resistance"...
EDIT: oh, and Kangaxx is downright immune to creeping doom x)
Not to Fire Seeds (which count as +6 weapons). Also he has no fire resistance, so it would take only a few of those to kill him (since in the Demilich Form, he has only 50 HP).
Also, why would you even bother using Lower Resistance against liches, since they are downright immune to it (and Breach, and all spells below level 6 as well)? (And more so because it is totally unnecessary as liches have zero MR )
You are, my friend, 100% right. That's why I would use Time Stop + Energy Blades instead if I were a pure mage. Or just SI and smack his face if I am F/M. X)
Comments
That sometimes leads me to wonder if there is any way at all by which a mage can save himself against Insect Plague in the unmodded game. The only way I could defeat the lizard man shaman was by interrupting his spell-casting with a Magic Missile whenever I heard "Facio, Vocco, Ferre" (which, of course, enemy mages aren't smart enough to do
In my runs there are a couple of strategies I might use against IP in situations where I can't run away (like pocket plane challenges - it is possible to use summons to prevent the barrier from closing challenge rooms off, but I don't normally bother with that):
- speed. IP has a very slow projectile and it's not at all difficult to keep running away from that. I remember one quite long battle where I was running round being chased by 2 swarms.
- invisibility. For a mage, repeated use of the SotM may be able to keep you safe until you can cast again. That won't work of course against something like dragons, but distracting them with a summons while you get out of their sight will work in the unmodded game.
The question I think comes down to: among the classes that can consistently kill a mage, which one is the fastest?
Someone said a mage would struggle to remove another mage's protections and require many turns. That is just not true: true sight and 1 breach is all you need 99% of the time. There are stronger spells than breach later on, but only 1 spell is required anyway. So a F/M is still in a position to very quickly, and in 100% of cases, kill mages.
Assassin is still fantastic (as well as F/T or M/T for similar reasons), however a critical miss or immunity vs backstab make it somewhat less consistent.
In practice, and with a team, the best way however is to use backstab every time it is possible, breach and weapons the rest of the time. With so many options in the game, disabling a mage is not relevant anymore, what matters is that mages do not have the time to cast anything before ending in a puddle of their own blood.
They can do everything, they have more HP's and better saves than Mage/sorcerer, so many ways to kill that every fight involves a CHOICE of exactly how you are going to slaughter everything. Do i pre-buff, backstab and melee my way through, do i chuck up some summons and interrupt from range, do i go full caster and blap em with spells, do i use super-items to disable/cripple??
I mean sure you can use IP as a druid, 1 6th level slot, but you can use 1 skull trap and unless protected any normal mage is dead w/o save, 3 in a sequencer and it's a room clearer unless you are on LOB, if you are on LOB you're not killing anything with Insect Plague alone, you'll need to do something in the region of 150 damage to kill most mages on LOB...Most effective killers are summons, for which the Druids Fire Elemental does deserve a notable mention, however Skeleton Warriors at 15th+ are only killable via Death spell/fog and a Planetar is ALWAYS a supreme killer thanks to it's chance to Vorpal hit. Incidentally the FMT with Axe of the Unyielding in TOB, plus a Planetar....ooooh my, makes you pause the game and just laugh like a maniac
With a
1) potion of invisibility/sand thief ring,
2) a good mage killer weapon (Balas axe, FoA etc.) not even mentioning Carsomyr..
3) working in tandem with true sight and
4) dispel magic
I find that most mage fights in vanilla are trivialized that way. The dispel magic is cast at double the caster level, meaning that a level 9 inquisitor potentially can take on a epic level mage. SCS may change that, but in vanilla it works quite well
For all I can tell, my wizards have no issue breaching the hell out of everything.
So yeah, vanilla, mage vs mage is pretty fast and easy. Played at the top of their game with a good AI? It’s 3 dimensional chess that spells doom with a single misstep. Vanilla SoD has a pretty good example of this is Hephernaan: if he sets up normally, he’ll have a Blade Barrier, Minor Spell Turning, Improved Invisibility, and SI:Divination running if I remember correctly. To get through to that wretched Blade Barrier, a mage has to spend 4 rounds of pain while a druid/shaman chortles and casts Insect Plague at a summon to completely nullify a high level M/C. Granted, that Blade Barrier is still an issue, but Hephernaan’s gonna run out of Stoneskins pretty quickly from the Insect Plague and after that physical damage is easily enough to break him.
For 80% of a normal walkthrough, Breach is enough as you will not really meet a mage that requires more. For the rest, Pierce Magic will take care of the rest. In the vanilla game, I cannot think of anything for which this is insufficient, but usually a physical fighter finishes off the mage. I do not believe indeed that pure mage is ideal to take down another mage, and I have never pretended so. But with F/M, breach (spell trigger if you want) is all you need after True sight.
I am focusing on vanilla game here. With mods or against a well-prepared human-played mage, this is a very different story. Please feel free to list enemies against which 1 round of spellcasting (post true sight that again, you can stick in a contingency) is not enough for a F/M, I am genuinely interested.
EDIT: once again, IP does not prevent the trigger of contingencies. The only mean after IP to kill a mage for a druid is to throw fire seeds at a summon close to the mage. It takes so long that druids are just not relevant anymore in the race to "best mage killer".
A dual class F/M with five pips in q/staffs and the Staff of the Magi - cheesy but effective.
Killing mages consistently and quickly, from lvl1 to lvl40, is best done by F/M, although I admit F/M is not always optimal. Inquisitors or assassins can be better at times, for instance.
When mages start usung annoying prot spells, the F/M already has Breach and from there it is fine.
But yeah, I get your point: mages are stupid enough so almost anything works. Hence the: "strip the defenses and slice the wizard" approach as being the best in vanilla game. Then depending on mods it changes.
In human vs human, my mage would have full contingencies on mass skull traps on sight + spell triggers on skull traps, effectively throwing 7 skull traps at you the moment you see me (or not, if you are a druid for instance, with summons in front of you, you will actually melt before you even see me). But then again, if you are a mage you may have some prots on yourself, etc.
You can easily say everything and nothing when not vanilla. And vanilla makes it solely a matter of how fast you get the job done.
I can't consider something to be a good magekiller if the techniques don't work against the best AI we have. It's a very bad spellcaster killer that can't deal with a decently controlled one. The other strategies presented above also have some of the same pitfalls: Insect Plague was considered so good a mage killer it was straight-up nerfed by SCS to be blocked by Fireshields, mages generally have Stoneskin prebuffed so backstabs don't work well, Inquisitors are blocked by a single Spell Immunity:Abjuration, and standard Wizard Slayers have a hard time vs Liches with PfMW. (Normal spellcasters can just be hit with normal ammunition and still apply spell failure.)
The ONLY consistent, unblockable magekilling techniques we've seen so far in SCS is the Wizard Slayer -> Druid dual courtesy of Fire Seeds, and a prolonged battle of Wizard Chess. Out of SCS, almost anything works and it becomes a time battle, but for sheer consistency I have to give my votes to WS -> Druid with a distant second place of Mage/Sorcerer simply because while possible, it's complicated as heck to pull off perfectly.
I know because my fighter/mage found himself suddenly dead against Rayic Gethras in a no-reload game. I learned to respect that guy the hard way.
A good mage killer is not only able to kill fast, but also has a watertight defense. With Insect Plague you not only kill the mage, but you also defend yourself against nasty surprises. The wizardslayer/druid does it even more effectively. IIRC there is a subquest for Neera that involves a room full of mages? Not sure tbh, because I can't stand Neera and avoid anything to do with her like the plague, but that's another topic.
Even then, staff of the magi is a lifesaver for these situations with no need to cast anything. Just swap it in, kthxbye. There are so many ways to protect you...
In vanilla Rayic and the likes are just not capable to go through a F/M. The whole thing about a F/M is precisely to have a watertight defense when you go to battle. The enemy dies fast enough not to be an issue with combinations of spells... Plus, as a F/M, I guess you were a gnome, and your saving throws should make you immune to finger of death...
Druids are just not fit to systematically, and more importantly quickly, kill mages.
IP is useless against the most powerful mages in the game, starting with liches that are downright immune to it.
As you said, a skull trap will often instantly kill a mage at that point in the game, IF he doesn't make his save. But that's a coin toss. And even if he doesn't make the save, it is not guaranteed in my experience, a mage will sometimes survive this, even if barely.
A spell sequencer with 3xskulltrap is an instant mage kill, but when does a f/m/t learn his first level 7 spell? Very late in BG2, I think?
Hahaha, what? What makes Druids *slow* at killing mages? Mages are slow at killing other mages, as all of the others spell protections need to be dispelled first, that can take MINUTES. Druids can straight up bypass all of that. Insect plague+Fireseeds+Done.
Quick question: can you define your definition of "perfect mage killer"?
Because druids are super slow to do this, and they will just plain fail at it against the most powerful mages. I mean, IP does not even bypass MR...
Do not get me started on the demi-lich.
After that it's simply a case of completing the CC so you get the 2nd barkeeper with the improved selection of items and some 7/8th level scrolls including, if i am not mistaken, spell trigger. From that point it's not much to unlock 7th level spells as a solo FMT, plenty of easy quests if you want to do it w/o more scrolls, if you want more scrolls can do Trademeet and clean out the Watchers Keep NPC, although worth noting you have to buy WK scrolls, cannot steal those ones.
Now i grant you it's a bit hit and miss with scroll drops, but my point is you can easily be casting 7th level spells before ANY challenging encounters even as a FMT.
2. You don't need very many Fire Seeds, and the duration (30 or 40 rounds) is fine for one fight. Wizard Slayer spell failure lasts for 60 seconds, so all you really need is to land 8 hits: 4 of them early, and then another after a few rounds (unless it's not an SCS lich with multiple unbreakable PFMW spells, in which can you'd only need 4 at most). I still used an exploit for large amounts of permanent Fire Seeds, but it's not actually necessary.
3. I don't use druids for tanking until they hit epic levels and get Earth Elemental Form. Either way, this is outside the discussion; this thread is only about bringing down wizards.
4. My mages are always a certain distance away from the enemy, which means they never suffer from the spell failure. Even if they did, I don't really need their spells to win lich fights if I'm using a Wizard Slayer/Druid.
And that's still true for many of the most powerful mages.
If only you had a spell like "Lower Resistance"...
EDIT: oh, and Kangaxx is downright immune to creeping doom x)
Also, why would you even bother using Lower Resistance against liches, since they are downright immune to it (and Breach, and all spells below level 6 as well)? (And more so because it is totally unnecessary as liches have zero MR
1) everybody can do it, rendering it non-relevant
2) then it opens the door to a big world of WTF
Plus, even with a scroll you may find yourself unable to kill him!!! It's the only class I can think of in that case, but even with fire seeds, considering Kangaxx' high hp regen, your rolls may prevent you from killing him entirely!
And I cannot confirm regarding liches' MR, but even with none, you're gonna have a baaaad time. Especially if the lich starts with time stop as it usually does, because CD will never habe the time to reach it! X)
That's why I would use Time Stop + Energy Blades instead if I were a pure mage.
Or just SI and smack his face if I am F/M.
X)