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  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308

    So Warren is 1/64 and the chief of the Cherokee is 1/32. She's half as Native American as the chief of the Cherokee. Are both of them Native American? Are neither of them?

    Or does that just happen to be the cutoff point where you're not allowed to say you're Native American? On what grounds?

    the cherokee would disagree with your general attitude it seems. http://www.kosu.org/post/cherokee-official-says-trump-warren-dna-debate-not-helping-tribe
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    So the Cherokee don't consider DNA to be relevant. Maybe they rely on other factors, like family history or involvement in the Cherokee community. For the purposes of building a community, I can see why that would be more important.

    Still, she's biologically part-Native American. That might not entitle her to acceptance from this or that tribe, but it's there.

    The Cherokee didn't ask for DNA, but Trump did.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    you can't be biolgically part native american in a culturally and politically relevant sense in the 21st century. we're way past that.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    Trump doesn't think so, that's why he said he'd give her $1,000,000 to her favorite charity if she got a DNA test that showed she had Native American DNA. She did, and now he's denying he ever made such a statement. Which is on videotape.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    trump's wording was "if it shows you're an indian". this implies that he promised to pay to charity if she showed that she's as much of a NA as it can be ascertained that one may be using a DNA test, or reasonably close to that, not that if showed she has even the very least percentage of NA ancestry, which is the case.

    since warren never claimed she's "an indian", trump's promise can't even be taken seriously and it very likely can't be considered legally binding

    (disclaimer: i'm not pro-trump)
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    bob_veng said:

    trump's wording was "if it shows you're an indian". this implies that he promised to pay to charity if she showed that she's as much of a NA as it can be ascertained that one may be using a DNA test, or reasonably close to that, not that if showed she has even the very least percentage of NA ancestry, which is the case.

    since warren never claimed she's "an indian", trump's promise can't even be taken seriously and it very likely can't be considered legally binding

    (disclaimer: i'm not pro-trump)

    It's a dumb argument/loop-hole. Her decision to get DNA tested was also dumb.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    i think it's incredibly dumb, but people absolutely become their dumbest selves when they double down on mistakes they've already made (such as publicly claiming NA ancestry in order to enhance one's political brand)
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Did she claim NA ancestry to "enhance her political brand?" Did she ever suggest it made her a better choice as a politician?
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    edited October 2018
    she touted it publicly saying how she's proud of her heritage, and her "family" :/

    this is her first account of this matter, and apparently, the truth behind it all: "I listed myself in the directory in the hopes that it might mean that I would be invited to a luncheon, a group something that might happen with people who are like I am. Nothing like that ever happened, that was clearly not the use for it and so I stopped checking it off."

    obviously, that doesn't look optimal politically, so she changed the tune to "proud", "heritage", "family" etc.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    bob_veng said:

    i think it's incredibly dumb, but people absolutely become their dumbest selves when they double down on mistakes they've already made (such as publicly claiming NA ancestry in order to enhance one's political brand)

    Yeah, but not to be lost in this is the argument against paying is also facile and disingenuous.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    i'm pretty sure a court would not find that trump is bound to pay up, based on interpretation of all relevant statements, mainly his promise, word by word, in the relevant context. imagine if this was a signed contract.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    edited October 2018
    bob_veng said:

    i'm pretty sure a court would not find that trump is bound to pay up, based on interpretation of all relevant statements, mainly his promise, word by word, in the relevant context. imagine if this was a signed contract.

    No one's making the argument that he's legally bound to pay, are they? They're saying he said "Take a DNA test, prove you're 'Indian', and I'll donate money".

    He isnt going to donate, not because she isnt Native American, but more likely because he's known to be an enormous cheap-skate. I think making excuses for him not to pay is silly. He doesnt *have* to. He isnt *going* to. He ends up looking like a jerk. If the test came back 50% Native American, he still wouldnt pay.

    This is the equivalent of when someone holds up 5 fingers on one hand and ask how many fingers are they holding up, and the response "5" is wrong because it's 4 fingers and a thumb.


    In result, she looks pretty bad in all this because she's trying to say "Technically, I'm right", and he looks bad because he's being racist and obnoxious. The reason why this hurts her more than him is because he doesnt care if most Americans think he's racist/obnoxious, he just needs to make whomever he's running against look bad too. He's done that here.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    edited October 2018


    No one's making the argument that he's legally bound to pay, are they?
    ...

    yes that's the argument. not legally bound - not gonna pay.

    he doesn't have to make excuses not to pay because he's not bound to pay, so he can go around saying "who cares" like he does. can i really blame him for that specifically (out of context)? hardly.

    if the test came back 50% NA, oh man, warren would've filed like this second, he would have had to pay, and that would've been very unpleasant for him. there's a problem with the rest of his statement where it looks like he frames the promise in an unrealistic scenario, but that's another matter
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    If Trump was actually a billionaire him donating a million dollars to charity would mean nothing to him. It would be like me throwing a quarter in a Salvation Army bucket. Hint: he isn't. In fact, I'd venture to guess he has LESS money now than the 400+ million his daddy gave him.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    bob_veng said:


    yes that's the argument. not legally bound - not gonna pay.

    he doesn't have to make excuses not to pay because he's not bound to pay, so he can go around saying "who cares" like he does. can i really blame him for that specifically (out of context)? hardly.

    if the test came back 50% NA, oh man, warren would've filed like this second, he would have had to pay, and that would've been very unpleasant for him. there's a problem with the rest of his statement where it looks like he frames the promise in an unrealistic scenario, but that's another matter

    Okay. I'm completely confused. I have yet to see any reputable news source suggest he is legally bound to pay. He made an off-the-cuff statement at a rally. If Warren had been 100% native american, he still wouldnt have to pay.

    Am I missing something here? All he did was make a ridiculous statement. No legally binding contract or anything. He never had to pay. I dont think anyone is saying he had to pay. No excuses need to be made *for* him because there is literally no mechanism to compel him to pay.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan are calling for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid cuts after they unlitaterally passed massive tax cuts for the rich and corporations and pushed massive defense spending more than the rest of the top 10 military budgets COMBINED.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited October 2018

    Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan are calling for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid cuts after they unlitaterally passed massive tax cuts for the rich and corporations and pushed massive defense spending more than the rest of the top 10 military budgets COMBINED.

    This news was more predictable than the sun rising in the East. The entire Republican experiment is to run up deficits with tax cuts and then use the news of the deficits those tax cuts caused to cut popular social programs. It's at the crux of everything they do.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited October 2018

    Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan are calling for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid cuts after they unlitaterally passed massive tax cuts for the rich and corporations and pushed massive defense spending more than the rest of the top 10 military budgets COMBINED.

    This news was more predictable than the sun rising in the East. The entire Republican experiment is to run up deficits with tax cuts and then use the news of the deficits those tax cuts caused to cut popular social programs. It's at the crux of everything they do.
    It's predictable for those that aren't surprised every time. Like voters previously duped by their lies like Trump claiming to not want to cut Medicare. Then he gets in office and, like other Republicans, wants to cut YOUR Medicare that you have been paying in to your working life. Even worse they want to gamble with your money by "privatizing" it into the stock market.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    edited October 2018
    If Trump was smart (he isn't) he'd donate the million to some Native American charity.

    edit: and no, the Cherokee wouldn't consider DNA. It's cultural influence not "bloodlines." You can't take a DNA test to say you are American, or German. You know you are American or German because of the culture and society you were brought up in.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited October 2018
    All she claimed was she'd heard of family stories of a distant native American ancestor. She got excited about that and wanted to be part of that somehow. She even used it once on something but never really claimed to be full Indian because she didn't really know and it was a distant relative but she truly believed she had that distant relative. She took the DNA test after Trump's goading and it showed what she'd been told as a little girl that she had a distant native American ancestor.

    Trump has been arguing totally dishonestly and seizing on anything to attack. He doesn't really care. He just likes throwing mud around. It was the same with Obama's birth certificate. There was nothing that would stop his lies even the form itself.

    Same with everything - just lie lie lie slander lie lie lie. He gets a defamation lawsuit by Stormy Daniels tossed then immediately calls her 'horseface'.

    This isn't a guy engaging in honest arguments. He isn't some crusader in search of truth and integrity. Far from it.

    He's not interested in the truth. He just wants to terrorize and insult.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    In other news, yet another entitled white woman called the cops on a black man who lived in her building, after refusing to let him in, badgering him and following him to his apartment.

    Why Do White People Feel Entitled to Police Black People?
    https://www.theroot.com/why-do-white-people-feel-entitled-to-police-black-peopl-1829766307

    Dennis Hof, the brothel kingpin and reality TV star who was running for Nevada Assembly, is found dead
    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-dennis-hof-dead-20181016-story.html
    (He was Republican, by the way, and called himself "The Trump of Pahrump")

    Trump Threatens to Pull NBC Off the Air Over Scathing Story
    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/10/trump-threatens-to-pull-nbc-off-the-air-over-scathing-story/amp?__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR0WfClqQ0ux932KVIZQrnGKwz0AhC9bC9mdkETVYDfiup34SWJBCWXUXOE
    (He can't, but that's never stopped him before...)

    'I don't forgive this woman': Black boy wrongly accused of grabbing white woman
    https://abc7ny.com/i-dont-forgive-this-woman-black-boy-wrongly-accused-of-grabbing-white-woman/4491669/?sf200153009=1

    Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians chief voices support for Elizabeth Warren after she sparked controversy for taking a DNA test to prove her Native American ancestry
    https://www.businessinsider.com/richard-sneed-cherokee-chief-voices-support-for-elizabeth-warren-2018-10?utm_content=buffer853a2&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer-bi
    Well, that's one of three of the Cherokee Indian nations. No word on the third, the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians. The second Tribe, Cherokee Nation, did not support her.

    There was also an op-ed by a Cherokee woman who didn't support Warren. So they have differing opinions, just as we do.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Trump now seems to refuse to believe Saudi Arabia had anything to do with the killing of the journalist. I guess the fact he walked into the Saudi consulate and ended up dismembered is just some weird coincidence. This is about the 4th or 5th time Trump has taken the side of murderous dictators simply because they "told him" something. How much money does the Trump family have tied up in Saudi business ventures??
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @jjstraka34 It's more like how much money they gave him. When he needed bailing out, back in the 80's, one Saudi connected to the Royal Family bought Donald Trump's Yacht for $20 million. They also bought an entire floor of one of Trump's building right across from the U.N. for 40 or 50 million dollars. Donald Trump has also bragged in the past about how much money he makes from the Saudis.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,318
    To be fair Trump may not only be interested in his personal enrichment, but US exports as well. He's already said he won't cancel any of the billions of dollars of agreed weapons sales to Saudi Arabia (this picture suggests the Saudis are already not perhaps quite as keen as Trump on the sales though ;) ), but he may well find Congress would disagree if it became clear this was a planned assassination. Therefore he will be following the standard playbook of:
    - deny anything happened
    - offer alternative explanations, whether credible or not
    - say it happened, but wasn't a big deal
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    NYPD to arrest 9 members of far-right Proud Boys involved in brawl
    https://nypost.com/2018/10/15/nypd-to-arrest-9-members-of-far-right-proud-boys-involved-in-brawl/?fbclid=IwAR0waEc2h6WA97kHxPjB7TQslj8RNSwXXVV3r-dPYgxv-Zoov3ZmrF_rRM8

    The numbers are in, and Trump's tax cut didn't reduce the deficit – despite his many promises
    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/16/trumps-tax-cut-didnt-reduce-the-deficit--despite-his-many-promises.html?fbclid=IwAR0GmTl3YhNdTh2pm5W0q0OHQkKV-Sw-iOydAl0OMHhF6JAaI05UOQoh1ww
    All I can say is, "What a surprise!" NOT.

    Now, the GOP is blaming the deficit on "Entitlements", so they want to cut Medicare, Social Security and all the other usual suspects...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIuzmxeNbyI

    And Trump denies he had any business with Saudia Arabia
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMc2cnZXuxs
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    Warren: Harvard shouldn’t have said she was a minority and Warren should have corrected them as soon as they said she was. Not only does it make them look bad, it also takes the the achievement of the real “first female minority” and the barriers she had to overcome.

    As stated, there is nothing wrong with reaching out and attempting to rediscover a lost heritage. She just did it the wrong way (and by the sounds of it, gave up on the endeavour).

    She and Harvard should apologize. She should also reconnect with her family tree, attempt to find out who she was actually related too and celebrate their life in the apology. She shouldn’t apologize to America, she should apologize to the first visible female minority that Harvard claimed she was.

    She should visit Cherokee tribes and reserves. Learn of their struggles and past history so she can see, in full context, why a claim like that might be insulting to them.

    As I stated, “her favourite charity” should be one related to Native Americans. For a nice kicker, she should apologize, prove her claim by showcasing her ancestor and the tribe they belonged to and then say “I am donating xxx amount to this charity on Thanksgiving, to help all Indigenous people. I am proud of being able to reconnect to my past, and call on the President of the United States to live up to his promise and donate to this charity as well.” IMO, this is probably her only way to save face at this point and also make it look like Trump does care about Native Americans.

    I also have a huge issue with whatever publication thinks it needs/needed to list people as minority. There is no bearing for this information.
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147

    There's a new film coming out I thought people here might be interested in seeing.

    "Elizabeth Warren; Last of the 1024th Mohicans"
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    edited October 2018
    Deficits
    Most people--including politicians--don't understand deficits. The idea of a deficit is simple--an entity has a budget which indicates that they are spending more money than they are taking in. For an individual household or a business this is *very* bad thing because it leads to having your utilities cut off, begin evicted for not being able to pay rent, foreclosure if you cannot pay your mortgage, or filing for bankruptcy, and laying off all your employees. Even for a city government this is bad--if they don't collect enough in property and/or sales taxes (in addition to whatever other fees and fines they are able to collect) then they cannot pay for police or street repairs. For a Federal or national government, though, a deficit is not as much of a problem. The government needs one billion to pay for some program? Don't worry--please be patient while they print one billion in currency. The value of that currency is maintained by the good faith and stability of that national government.

    Where deficits become a problem is when the discussion turns to the topic of whether a deficit is a good thing, a neutral thing, or a bad thing. Most conservatives--and here is one topic where I differ from most conservative-leaning folks--make the logical fault known as "fallacy of composition" because they try to apply the budget restrictions of a personal household to the national government--they think that because I cannot spend more than I bring home in paychecks that the Federal Government cannot (or should not) spend more than it brings in via taxes. At the Federal level, that is not how taxation works. As I noted, if the Government needs one billion it can just print it and call it good--if the government collapses you will have problems significantly more important than whether the money retains value.

    Most liberals fall victim to a different logical fallacy because they think the Government *needs* high taxes in order to pay for social programs. Again, that is not how Government works--Medicare is not going to fail if individual tax rates are lowered because ultimately the Government does not *need* your tax money to pay its bills. That hasn't been true of the United States in decades.

    The *real* purpose of taxation is to reduce the money supply. The Government prints money, which devalues the currency, which leads to inflation; inflation is bad for consumers and producers and therefore something must be done about it. The Federal Reserve can ease inflation by lowering base interest rates but the IRS can also help reduce inflation by increasing taxes. This is why the phrase "the rich aren't paying their fair share" is nothing but a meaningless call for economic class distrust.

    Bottom line, deficits look bad on paper but in reality they are not harbingers of doom. If deficits were going to bankrupt the United States they would have done so decades ago. I am not suggesting that we fire up the printing presses nonstop, of course, but trying to use deficits as a political weapon--on either side--is disingenuous and indicates a lack of understanding.

    *************

    Khashoggi. Why is this still news? He was not a United States citizen and his kidnapping--and probable murder--did not occur on U. S. soil; therefore, he is neither our concern nor our problem.

    The truly laughable part of this story is that people are getting upset over one journalist's death when they care very little at all about nearly one million Uyghurs being placed into "education camps" where the Chinese government is claiming that they are being taught Mandarin and job skills. I have no doubt that they are being taught *something* but I doubt the situation is as harmless or altruistic as they claim.

    *************

    Cruz vs O'Rourke
    2016
    Trump defeats Clinton for President by 800,000 votes
    Christian defeats Yarbrough for Railroad Commission by 1,300,000 votes

    2014
    Abbot defeats Davis for Governor by 960,000 votes
    Cornyn defeats Alameel for Senate by 1,200,000 votes

    2012
    Romney garnered 1,300,000 votes over Obama
    Cruz defeats Sadler for Senate by 1,200,000 votes

    2010
    Pery defeats White for Governor by 631,000 votes
    Dewhurst defeats Chavez-Thompson for Lt. Gov by 1,300,000 votes

    Robert definitely has an uphill battle if he is going to unseat Ted. Approximate population of Texas: 23.8 million. If half of these people are registered to vote (I have no justification for that number, just a wild guess) and voting rates for non-Presidential elections hold (about 30%) then the voter pool should be about 3.57 million people. Trying to make up the difference of 750,000 to 1,000,000 votes from this pool is going to be exceedingly difficult. We will simply have to wait and see.
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