Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to make an order. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE, PST:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Simulacrum, the way spells are memorized in original and in EE.

the simulacrum clone is a level drained version of the mage, so it has fewer spell slots.
but even if is inferior to the pi clone as spell caster, less spells, less effective level depending spells, has its own advantages.
he can perform physical attacks, does not freeze the original spell caster and is immune to true sight, even if dispell magic kills both. and the 2 clones can exist at the same time, while in EE the trick to have more than one pi is now impossible.

my problem with the ee version of the simulacrum is the way he loose spells compared to the original caster. in the original game the order you memorize spells before resting allow you, knowing how much spells the simulacrum has, to have complete control on the spells the simulacrum has, as he will loose the spells that are memorized last.
in ee this is no more possible, the game engine decide which spells are lost, possibly there is a set priority so some spells that the developers and not the player have set that make the clone "forget" some type of spells and keep others independently by the order that they were memorized. this probably happens cause in the original game at the moment you select the spells to memorize they respect the order you chose them, ie is possible to select 2 magic missiles, then a protection from evil and last other mm, so if the clone can cast 3 lev 1 spells will have 2 mm and 1 pfe loosing the other mm. in ee all the mm will be put in the ui next to each other so the clone will have all mm but will not be able to cast pfe.
this imo greatly nerf the usefulness of the simulacrum spell, ie with a simulacrum that can cast only a lev 9 spell i can no more choose if to have it able to cast an improved alacrity to spam the lower level spells, on which i also have no more complete control, or a planetar or a spellstrike. i get a simulacrum able to do what the engine decide.

so here is the poll.

Simulacrum, the way spells are memorized in original and in EE. 15 votes

i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
66%
AndreaColombosubtledoctorAmmarArdulsemiticgodkotopheygorgonzolaLudwig_IIProbablyNotANumberDavid77 10 votes
i am fine with the ee behavior, makes the ui more neat and easy to control even if i loose control on the spells of the simulacrum.
6%
StummvonBordwehr 1 vote
i never noticed it, but now that i know it i like more option n.1
20%
NoonBalrog99Maurvir 3 votes
i never noticed it, but now that i know it i like more option n.2
0%
i don't care, i use the simulacrum clone only with my fighters thank to the helm and fighters son't cast spells.
6%
Timbo0o0o0 1 vote

Comments

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    it can not be immediately apparent, but there is the same issue if a spell caster is level drained by vampires or other foe, with the original version you can plan in advance which spells he will loose until his levels are restored.

  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 795
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    I preferred the old behaviour, not only for the clone but also when the character gets level drained. Helps when Clerics are able to have their Restoration spells in the first slots.

    Grond0gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    @Ammar
    we posted about the same issue in the same moment :)

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    Ammar wrote: »
    I preferred the old behaviour, not only for the clone but also when the character gets level drained. Helps when Clerics are able to have their Restoration spells in the first slots.
    it can usually be solved by going to a temple and have your cleric level restored or sleeping so he can memorize the restoration spell. if the party survives the battle. very annoying but possible.
    but can be as bad if you mage is level drained and looses the memorization, even if he can be restored on the spot by the cleric he can use some spells that in your battle plan are a key to win, and restoration leave those slots empty, if ee does not change it, so again you possibly have to retreat, find a spot to rest and begin again the battle. almost as annoying as to have the cleric loose the restoration spell.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 12,682
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    Currently clones memorize spells in alphabetical order. You do have some control over what they memorize, but it requires some sacrifices. The old system might be more convenient, at least for that particular purpose.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    alphabetical order, good to know it.
    an other issue of the present implementation is using items that allow to memorize more spells, like the katana a special merchant sells. unequipping it you loose those spells, but at now you don't have control on which spells are lost.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 1,830
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    alphabetical order, good to know it.
    an other issue of the present implementation is using items that allow to memorize more spells, like the katana a special merchant sells. unequipping it you loose those spells, but at now you don't have control on which spells are lost.
    Only clones have a reordered memorization.
    Other creature's retain their memorization order, the last spell memorized is the first spell lost when level drained or removing items that grant extra slots. It is only the display in the magebook that is misleading, as it is ordered alphabetically.

    You can actually block the reordering of the clones memorizations by setting all spells to the same name, not that it's practical, and causes other problems.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    i did not know it as is a really long time since one of my toons gets level drained and i usually don't use that sword or unequip the other items that grant more spells like the rings or the amulet.
    but is good to know new things, thank you!
    my personal problem is about the simulacrum as i use it with my mages and dual/multi and sadly there the problem is real, the solution of setting all the spells with the same name is not practical and i would really have some flexibility and control on what a clone can cast.

  • David77David77 Member Posts: 29
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    Does leftruits ui mod help this behaviour? spell book tweaks specifically?

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    edited March 18
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    i downloaded the mod right now as i don't know it, but the readme has a strange extension, .md instead of .txt
    and don't want to install it and try now.
    anyway i doubt it can fix the problem as is a ui modification, and as @semiticgod and @kjeron told before the order in which the spells are showed in the ui does not matter, for the original caster level drained the order in which they are memorized is recorded and used by the engine, so you have to remember in which order you did memorize them, thing that is no more apparent and this can be annoying in itself, but a ui change does not affect the thing.
    for the spells the clone knows in ee not even the order you memorize matters, the alphabetical order is used, so a ui modification is even far less effective.
    probably only a mod that patch the engine making the order you memorize work also for clones, as is anyway already remembered by the engine as it works for level draining, is the only possible fix.
    i am absolutely not able to create such mod, and i don't know if even an experienced modder can do it without having access to the source code, that is kept secret for obvious reasons.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,688
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    The weird/terrible thing is, this is not consistent.

    The gane used to put memorized spells in the order you clicked on them. This gave you some measure of control. Level drain would remove slots (boxes) from the right side i.e. the most recently memorized spells. I think spell drain (like from nishruu) worked the same way. Conversely, Wondrous Recall/opcode 261 restored spells from the left side first, i.e. the least recently-memorized spells.

    Now, the game wants to group identical spells together. (Which is kind of reasonable - I used to hate having multiple copies of the same spell scattered around). But the way it does this is, it automatically sorts spells in alphabetical order. So when you lose slots to level drain/simulacrum, you lose spells that begin with lettets late in the alphabet. Which is, frankly, an insane rule to apply (if you think of this as an applied rule).

    With Wondrous Recall, I believe it still restores spells that ypu memorized earlier... which is nice... except because of the new UI, there id no simple visual way for you to remember which those are!

    So tl;dr: both losing spells and restoring spells are rendered crappy by the way the new UI works. :(

    And I don't think it's fixable by mods. :cry:

    gorgonzolaLudwig_IIsemiticgodGusinda
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    my suspect is confirmed by a modder. even if the 90% of who voted until this moment don't like it, we must take the alphabetical order that we have now.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    as with this topic i learned that the order you memorize the spells is still relevant to the ones a toon loose if level drain or other factors make it happen, even if i agree with @subtledoctor that an ui that reorganize the spell order does not make simple to control the feature, i will file a new feature request to beamdog to have the same method used also for the spells the simulacrum clone knows. but i will not ask to revert the ui to the method used in the original game, as the actual one is more friendly to casual gamers and to who does not need the use of such advanced control on the spells.
    this should make happier the 90% of the voters, that like to have control on the spells simulacrum knows, and also will not make unhappy the 10% that likes to have an easy to reed interface when selecting spells.

    i will wait some day before i will do it, so other people can vote or give suggestions on the proposed modification.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    i filed today a new feature request asking to maintain the alphabetical order for displaying the memorized spells in the spellbook but to use the order in which they are memorized to determine which ones the simulacrum will retain.

  • ProbablyNotANumberProbablyNotANumber Member Posts: 26
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    Oh, nice coincidence. I came here just to post about that, since I found a copy of BG2:EE at a friends' house I wanted to check things out and see if I could solo Ascension's final fight in EE as well.

    Turns out the simulacrum not getting the spells I want does not fit well with my strategy.

    Where did you make that feature request ? I can't see it in the Feature Request forum or your account history.

  • ProbablyNotANumberProbablyNotANumber Member Posts: 26
    edited April 4
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    It appears to be a known bug reported a few times starting from at least 3 years ago:

    https://support.baldursgate.com/issues/24030
    https://support.baldursgate.com/issues/32562

    We would need to get it acknowledged by an actual developer and fixed in the next version (2.6), as I don't think a next next version will come any time soon since Beamdog is focused on the console release.

    I've seen a developer acknowledge that simulacrum level needs to be fixed (again) for 2.6, so while they are at it...

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    i would like to have the way spells are memorized reverted to the not ee behavior, so i would have complete control on the spells the clone knows.
    @ProbablyNotANumber
    i sent you a pm with the issue number.

Sign In or Register to comment.