I hope they dont butcher the saga trying to use a venerable name to make money and giving us an indencent storyline
Besides, will it use 5th edition rules? I think it is about time that a D&D game finally uses the rules instead of some invented rules for the crpgs, as it has happened since NWN 2 went gold, iirc
Messing with hit calculations of D&D and fundamentally changing the combat system would be crossing the line though. Exact D&D rules work just fine in all of the IE games, NWN1&2 and Pathfinder Kingmaker. All RTwP.
What I would like to see is Larian perfecting RTwP with good animations that make the combat look exciting and awesome.
Just a point of contention here: None of the games you listed adhered exactly to any D&D rule set. They all made changes. (Edit - I'll be more careful. I never played Pathmaker, so I don't know about that one)
So its 100 years in the future, isn't about Gorion's Ward, and isn't a continuation of the series' story. Confirmed: its NOT BG3, but a spin off. The name is literally just cynical marketing to draw people in and try to bank on brand nostalgia. I hate being right.
You're entitled to your opinion, but there are plenty of us who have no issue seeing this as BG3 despite the Bhaalspawn being long gone. There is no rule/law/requirement that BG3 directly carries forward the Bhaalspawn's tale.
I like spitting hate and venom as much as any other guy, but Fallout 3 was also made by different studio on different engine with different system and afaik without particular connection to the previous titles.
What I would like to see is Larian perfecting RTwP with good animations that make the combat look exciting and awesome.
I thought KOTOR did a pretty decent job of it... and then Dragon Age Origins did it terribly. Don't know why that happened.
DAO animations are pretty sluggish and combat isn't reactive at all. No blocking or dodging. They just kind of stand there looping attack animations.
Also if Larian wants to eliminate misses from the equation there will be no visual distinction between fighting a fast and elusive opponent and a tanky one.
If everyone will be landing hits all the time, next you will need bigger HP pools that regenerate quickly after every fight...and then you will need to completely rework how healing spells work...and then...
I just hope they're not going to open that door and be another SCL that "adapted the 5e rules for a video game". SCL sucked, it wasn't D&D and WotC let it happen.
Good times to be alive. With this and Vampire:Bloodlines2 I feel the need to hibernate for 2 o 3 years or so to see´em done when awake.
I really like the idea that the game is not about baalspawn, I think that trama was perfectly made and ended.
And Thank god is Larian. I love the Divinity, series, especially the OS saga. It is a developer that really likes his customers and, more important, the modders. Also are known to innovate and take risks in their games, sometimes for good, sometimes not; but at least you enjoy(or not) something new. They also love their characters and plots, and multiple dialog choices, something that you seldom ever see in this decade rpgs, especially in eastern ones.
I like spitting hate and venom as much as any other guy, but Fallout 3 was also made by different studio on different engine with different system and afaik without particular connection to the previous titles.
And there are people who still despise this decision. And seeing where Bethesda has taken Fallout, you really can’t fault them now for the original critique of it.
It seems like multiple Beamdog employee's are in favor of turn based gameplay. Should I assume that they know something that I don't?
I have no inside info and (from the folks I've talked to here at BD) no one else does, either--or no one's willing to share with me, at least. I've spent the morning watching the same stream, reading the same articles, and following the same announcements that you have.
Personally, I have my preferences for what I'd like to see in BG3--for the record I'd prefer RTwP over turn-based--but I'm not going to pass on a BG3 due to mechanics. As I said earlier, if it's a good story with fun and engaging characters, I'll be happy. The rest is important, sure, but secondary to that.
Right on, Wasn't Philly D talking about designing an Illithid and mumbling about knowledge on twitter? What's that about?
Even if the game sucks it wouldn't be any different than it not being made in my eyes. If it's great well that would be awesome so...nothing to lose. I do think TB is the wrong choice for a BG game and it will effect the games longevity. Even if it's the coolest game experience in the world, it will still disappear from peoples minds if it has great gameplay but not lasting gameplay. That is what makes the original titles stand out above all other games for me. You guys nailed it with SOD so it's not a lost art. Planescape Torment is proof that it can be done wrong and the magic ingredient isn't the infinity engine, I agree with you on that.
Messing with hit calculations of D&D and fundamentally changing the combat system would be crossing the line though. Exact D&D rules work just fine in all of the IE games, NWN1&2 and Pathfinder Kingmaker. All RTwP.
What I would like to see is Larian perfecting RTwP with good animations that make the combat look exciting and awesome.
Just a point of contention here: None of the games you listed adhered exactly to any D&D rule set. They all made changes. (Edit - I'll be more careful. I never played Pathmaker, so I don't know about that one)
Those games were all extremely close to PnP. They didn't fundamentally change anything like Sword Coast Legends did.
We are now hearing the exact same pitch from Larian that nSpace gave us when they were making SCL. That it would be 5e D&D but "adapted for a video game". Larian said they implemented 5e rules and then changed whatever they felt didn't work for a video game. They also said that in 5e your attacks miss too often. So they probably "fixed" that and fundamentally changed how combat works in D&D.
Quote:
SW: BG3 is based on the fifth edition [of D&D]. We started by setting out the ruleset very meticulously, and then seeing what worked and what didn’t work – because it is a videogame, and D&D was made to play as a tabletop game. So for the things that didn’t work, we came up with solutions.
The cool thing we found is that a lot of what makes D&D, D&D, actually survived the translation, so I think that if you like Dungeons and Dragons and you want to play BG3, you’re going to be happy.
Call me paranoid but "survived the translation" sounds like a lot was changed. Like SCL much. I hope I'm reading too much into this because SCL traumatized me as a huge wasted opportunity. Just have to wait and see I guess.
That they're unwilling to talk about the combat system is the issue for me. The game being TB is a deal-breaker for me. Don't care what else is "good" about the game. Not RTwP = Not a Baldur's Gate game.
Like a couple of others have already said, I can't help but wonder if they're unwillingness to confirm anything about the combat system is an indication that it will end up being TB. Saying up-front it will be RTwP shouldn't really alienate too many people because that just follows how the previous games were, so not really a surprise. But saying it is TB will immediately alienate a lot of the old BG fans, people like me for example. So you keep that information hidden, try to get the old BG fans as hyped as you can for the game based on other bits of info, then hope that when it is eventually revealed to be a TB game those fans will be too hyped/too invested already to feel let down. A good marketing strategy. But won't work with me. If it's TB, I will be alienated.
I could actually live with turn based if it at least employed D&D rules, but anything like the Original Sin games would be just awful.
Nah, the choice of battle system was never the biggest thing for me, though I do prefer RTwP, its more the overall presentation and tone of the game, and if its going to be an open world 3D game well that would kill it for me.
It's possible but it's just as likely that announcing that it's RTwP would cause an even larger part of the mainstream to lose interest. I only say that because of the POE 2 patch. Obviously there are a lot of them and their voices were heard.
Sword Coast Legends wasn't a ruleset at all. It was talent trees. Nothing wrong with talent trees, as Diablo 2 is one of the best games of all-time and popularized them. But the ones in SCL were legitimately the worst ones I have ever seen.
But real time with pause is turned base. that is what I don't get? Even Baldur's Gate you could set the game to pause every round so you dish out your orders, watch it play out, the game would pause and rinse and repeat. It's actually how I am slowly playing through the game on my iPhone.
I like spitting hate and venom as much as any other guy, but Fallout 3 was also made by different studio on different engine with different system and afaik without particular connection to the previous titles.
F3 was essentially just a modernised remake. It took its plot from Fallout 1 + 2 + tactics stories and made a but of a mess of the lore, not that tactics already did that. At first I didn't really like where they took it but now I absolutely love the game for what it is.
Going off topic here but I'd be happy with some kind of Witcher/Dragonage style game. I imagine it will be an isometric game with 3D sprites like Wasteland 2.
Right on, Wasn't Philly D talking about designing an Illithid and mumbling about knowledge on twitter? What's that about?
I'm quite sure that unlike external contractors like CamDawq or myself Phil would have been well informed about any negotiations that may have been taking place between companies.
But real time with pause is turned base. that is what I don't get? Even Baldur's Gate you could set the game to pause every round so you dish out your orders, watch it play out, the game would pause and rinse and repeat. It's actually how I am slowly playing through the game on my iPhone.
Well if that's how TB is defined (with the pause at the end of the round being optional) then I'd be fine with it.
But moving on to another controversial area, I personally was happy to hear Swen say that they won't hesitate to modify the core 5e rules if that can help make the game play better. I think what SCL did with the D&D rules is exactly what any video game should do (although I agree that the specific nature of their changes was silly). A video game developer should not absolutely faithfully adopt a tabletop game's rules. Heck BG did not faithfully follow 2e rules, and PsT downright mangled them.
But real time with pause is turned base. that is what I don't get? Even Baldur's Gate you could set the game to pause every round so you dish out your orders, watch it play out, the game would pause and rinse and repeat. It's actually how I am slowly playing through the game on my iPhone.
Technically true. But there is one big deal here. Rtwp allows you to skip downtime by never pausing. This allows trash battles to resolve in seconds. Having to position every individual npc on a grid, select and an action and then wait for each individual character to do so in turn, will REALLY slow thigns down. Rtwp is great, because it can as fast or slow as you need/want it to be.
Seems like a very high level threat you're facing right from the outset though. I mean Ilithids are some of the most fearsome creatures in the realms.
I don't know about gameplay changes, but one thing I do hope they use is alignment restrictions..Not necessarily because I think it's such an awesome system, but because it's been such a core part of D&D since the beginning and removing that from 5E was a stupid decision in the first place.
I dunno why people are assuming that the combat is going to strongly resemble the OS games. In the interviews posted, Larian already said that they built a whole new game engine. Why do that and then not change the combat rules?
Developers actually don't like making the same game over and over again guys. It's human nature.
Technically true. But there is one big deal here. Rtwp allows you to skip downtime by never pausing. This allows trash battles to resolve in seconds. Having to position every individual npc on a grid, select and an action and then wait for each individual character to do so in turn, will REALLY slow thigns down. Rtwp is great, because it can as fast or slow as you need/want it to be.
I would again encourage anyone to try King's Bounty (summer sale is soon, so you can get it for less than two bucks then) and then come back telling how TB is cheap, slow and lacks depth
If you have TB combat and there are lots of trash mobs whom a high-level player can't kill in a few clicks, then you have a problem with balance and/or UI design, not the time mode.
I totally agree a lot of developers don't seem to know how to craft TB gameplay that will be comfortable throughout the whole game, but it's not the issue with the system itself.
Right. The head of Larian references how the metamorphosis is "accelerated". Which will probably end up being a plot detail. Not perfectly in step with established lore, but nothing prevents it from being a possibility.
@BallpointMan could you tell me where this is referenced?
I will keep my hype to 0 until I actually see the gameplay. I have seen too many scams like diablo-esque action RPGs or virtual casinos with lootbox/DLC/p2w elements.
Comments
Besides, will it use 5th edition rules? I think it is about time that a D&D game finally uses the rules instead of some invented rules for the crpgs, as it has happened since NWN 2 went gold, iirc
Just a point of contention here: None of the games you listed adhered exactly to any D&D rule set. They all made changes. (Edit - I'll be more careful. I never played Pathmaker, so I don't know about that one)
You're entitled to your opinion, but there are plenty of us who have no issue seeing this as BG3 despite the Bhaalspawn being long gone. There is no rule/law/requirement that BG3 directly carries forward the Bhaalspawn's tale.
DAO animations are pretty sluggish and combat isn't reactive at all. No blocking or dodging. They just kind of stand there looping attack animations.
Also if Larian wants to eliminate misses from the equation there will be no visual distinction between fighting a fast and elusive opponent and a tanky one.
If everyone will be landing hits all the time, next you will need bigger HP pools that regenerate quickly after every fight...and then you will need to completely rework how healing spells work...and then...
I just hope they're not going to open that door and be another SCL that "adapted the 5e rules for a video game". SCL sucked, it wasn't D&D and WotC let it happen.
I really like the idea that the game is not about baalspawn, I think that trama was perfectly made and ended.
And Thank god is Larian. I love the Divinity, series, especially the OS saga. It is a developer that really likes his customers and, more important, the modders. Also are known to innovate and take risks in their games, sometimes for good, sometimes not; but at least you enjoy(or not) something new. They also love their characters and plots, and multiple dialog choices, something that you seldom ever see in this decade rpgs, especially in eastern ones.
The news looks good to me but let´s wait and see.
And there are people who still despise this decision. And seeing where Bethesda has taken Fallout, you really can’t fault them now for the original critique of it.
Right on, Wasn't Philly D talking about designing an Illithid and mumbling about knowledge on twitter? What's that about?
Even if the game sucks it wouldn't be any different than it not being made in my eyes. If it's great well that would be awesome so...nothing to lose. I do think TB is the wrong choice for a BG game and it will effect the games longevity. Even if it's the coolest game experience in the world, it will still disappear from peoples minds if it has great gameplay but not lasting gameplay. That is what makes the original titles stand out above all other games for me. You guys nailed it with SOD so it's not a lost art. Planescape Torment is proof that it can be done wrong and the magic ingredient isn't the infinity engine, I agree with you on that.
We are now hearing the exact same pitch from Larian that nSpace gave us when they were making SCL. That it would be 5e D&D but "adapted for a video game". Larian said they implemented 5e rules and then changed whatever they felt didn't work for a video game. They also said that in 5e your attacks miss too often. So they probably "fixed" that and fundamentally changed how combat works in D&D.
Quote:
SW: BG3 is based on the fifth edition [of D&D]. We started by setting out the ruleset very meticulously, and then seeing what worked and what didn’t work – because it is a videogame, and D&D was made to play as a tabletop game. So for the things that didn’t work, we came up with solutions.
The cool thing we found is that a lot of what makes D&D, D&D, actually survived the translation, so I think that if you like Dungeons and Dragons and you want to play BG3, you’re going to be happy.
Call me paranoid but "survived the translation" sounds like a lot was changed. Like SCL much. I hope I'm reading too much into this because SCL traumatized me as a huge wasted opportunity. Just have to wait and see I guess.
Like a couple of others have already said, I can't help but wonder if they're unwillingness to confirm anything about the combat system is an indication that it will end up being TB. Saying up-front it will be RTwP shouldn't really alienate too many people because that just follows how the previous games were, so not really a surprise. But saying it is TB will immediately alienate a lot of the old BG fans, people like me for example. So you keep that information hidden, try to get the old BG fans as hyped as you can for the game based on other bits of info, then hope that when it is eventually revealed to be a TB game those fans will be too hyped/too invested already to feel let down. A good marketing strategy. But won't work with me. If it's TB, I will be alienated.
Nah, the choice of battle system was never the biggest thing for me, though I do prefer RTwP, its more the overall presentation and tone of the game, and if its going to be an open world 3D game well that would kill it for me.
I bet it'll be turn-based.
Absolute hype if it has anything to do with Spelljammer. It is the number 1 setting in my opinion.
F3 was essentially just a modernised remake. It took its plot from Fallout 1 + 2 + tactics stories and made a but of a mess of the lore, not that tactics already did that. At first I didn't really like where they took it but now I absolutely love the game for what it is.
Going off topic here but I'd be happy with some kind of Witcher/Dragonage style game. I imagine it will be an isometric game with 3D sprites like Wasteland 2.
Well if that's how TB is defined (with the pause at the end of the round being optional) then I'd be fine with it.
Technically true. But there is one big deal here. Rtwp allows you to skip downtime by never pausing. This allows trash battles to resolve in seconds. Having to position every individual npc on a grid, select and an action and then wait for each individual character to do so in turn, will REALLY slow thigns down. Rtwp is great, because it can as fast or slow as you need/want it to be.
I don't know about gameplay changes, but one thing I do hope they use is alignment restrictions..Not necessarily because I think it's such an awesome system, but because it's been such a core part of D&D since the beginning and removing that from 5E was a stupid decision in the first place.
Let D&D be..D&D
Developers actually don't like making the same game over and over again guys. It's human nature.
If you have TB combat and there are lots of trash mobs whom a high-level player can't kill in a few clicks, then you have a problem with balance and/or UI design, not the time mode.
I totally agree a lot of developers don't seem to know how to craft TB gameplay that will be comfortable throughout the whole game, but it's not the issue with the system itself.
I really hoped it would be made by Beamdog.
Well, it should be interesting to watch develop regardless, but I'm not quite as excited.
@BallpointMan could you tell me where this is referenced?