Please read this question as curiosity, not negativity:
For those who are expecting it to be good, what exactly is exciting here? I has imparted almost zero knowledge about the project that we didn't already know yesterday.
To begin - forgive me if some of this was known yesterday (I didn't see these details, but that doesn't mean they weren't available before).
Exciting details (for me. Don't want to speak for everyone excited)
-No bhaalspawn. So it's not a continuation like we sort of feared.
-300+ people working on the game. I see this as a sign that Larian is investing heavily into the project.
-Been worked on since 2017, so it isn't being rushed.
-5th edition (do we know that yet for sure? I think we all assumed).
-Corollary to 5th edition - they're willing (and able) to tweak the rules to make the game more fun. I believe that will be a positive as it relates to gameplay.
-Self-Published, so no "deals with the devil" to make a game for the masses. Admittedly, I don't know the scope of Google's influence here.
-Admittedly vague references to a party based game (so - probably not like NWN1)
Additionally - I get the impression that Larian treats the subject matter (BG Trilogy) somewhat reverently. Which makes me hopeful they'll do it justice.
That's not exhaustive per se, but all of which contributes to me being excited about the project. It's not a slam dunk though. I agree we absolutely need to see gameplay. The peripherals all feel good, but I'll admit they're only peripheral.
Yep, that's one of the Spelljammer class known as Nautiloids of the Mind Flayers from Spelljammer.
As one of the few Spelljammer enthusiasts, that's one big plus in my book.
I really don't know a lot about Spelljammer. It's (generally speaking) not my cup of tea. That said, I'll try not to prejudge it. If they do a good job working it in, I think it'll probably be fine.
And it's not just the games Larian has to live up to: it's people's memories. Quite often formative memories in people's gaming lives. How do you live up to that?
"We try not to think too much about it," Vincke said, again with a smile.
"It's in good hands. It's in the hands of people who love Dungeons & Dragons. There's an enormous amount of people here who geek-out completely - there's a lot of people here, actually, for whom [Baldur's Gate] was their first RPG so they want to do their utter best making the best game they've ever made. They take it very, very seriously.
"But it's still us making it - it's not the original guys making it - so you will see what we think makes a good RPG, in 2019 and going forward."
And with another smile he concluded: "Expect to be surprised."
I asked if Baldur’s Gate III would have turn-based or real-time-with-pause combat.
“This is one of those interviews where we’ll be saying ‘We’re not talking about that yet’ a lot,” Vincke said. “When it comes to the combat system, we prefer to show it to people rather than talk about it. That will hammer it home. But it will still be some time before we actually show it.”
One of the best features of the Original Sin games is how different elements and terrain interact in combat. If water’s on the ground, you can cast an electricity spell to create an area-of-effect damaging effect on the puddle. Vincke said Larian is trying to do this.
“I have an example I use for this. When you play a tabletop game, often at some point the Dungeon Master is going to [ask] you, ‘What do you do?’ Video games in general are limited in what you can do. Our ambition is to make it as broad as possible, what you can do. This is literally one of the very big focuses of making the game,” Vincke said. “When it comes to combat, when you’re playing tabletop, you’ll look around you, see what’s in the environment, and try to use it. We’re putting a heavy focus on that.”
Baldur’s Gate III will not use the same game engine as the Original Sin series. “We’ve been in development on this game for several years already. It’s not the same engine as those two, but it is our own engine. It’s built on the technology that we already have,” Vincke said.
Baldur’s Gate is arguably the most precious licence in CRPGs. How are you responding to the pressure and expectation?
SW: We try not to think about it, and just focus on making the game that we would like to play. I have to say that now we’re very close to the announcement, I’m starting to get very nervous. The more I talk to people the more you sense that people really have very high expectations. But the team is incredibly motivated and also very talented, and we are throwing our biggest team ever at this, so I hope that we are going to deliver on those expectations. We will see! There’s a lot of work ahead of us.
How would you differentiate Baldur’s Gate 3 from Divinity: Original Sin 2 and other contemporary CRPGs?
SW: The philosophy that we use to make the games is similar, but this is D&D, so it very much has its own identity. You can see that in the teaser trailer [when it releases] – the visual identity of the game is very different to Divinity: Original Sin 2, and you’re going to see that throughout the entire game.
At the same time, DOS2 was based on pen-and-paper systems, where it was about giving you systems and overcoming those challenges. So what you can expect in BG3 is us giving you more tools to fool around with based on fifth edition rules and on some of the things that make the fifth edition so cool and accessible.
In addition, Vincke says the impossible task of following on from two of the most important RPGs in history was a real allure. “It's a big challenge, right? So it's something for the team to work towards and demonstrate,” he says. “This game deserves to be really, really good. It has to be really, really good. Otherwise, we can't leave our homes anymore!”
In order to ensure RPG fans wielding burning pitchforks of +6 rage don’t surround their offices, Larian has lofty ambitions for Baldur’s Gate 3’s systems. “The level of reactivity in the world that we want is very high, so much higher than what we had in Divinity: Original Sin 2,” Vincke explains. “That's something that's been challenging, but I think we figured it out because we're making good progress.”
So why announce the game now? Well, because of tradition. Both of Larian’s Divinity: Original Sin games were crowdfunded and developed with huge amounts of input from the community. While Baldur’s Gate 3 is not a crowdfunded game, Vincke and his team want the community to be just as involved. “We owe our successes in a large part to our community,” he says. “So we need time to be able to work with them. And so this is why we're announcing now.“
@JuliusBorisov I fear you are wasting your time trying with that one but I admire your commitment.
Julius knows me, and knows he is not wasting his time.
I’ll get to the interviews eventually, but I am still skeptical about a lot of things being mentioned in this thread. I am completely opened minded, but will call out marketing bs when I see it
However, they are bringing back iconic BG companions, ie minsc and jaheira.
Minsc is obviously coming back, the Legends of Baldur's Gate comic book series did not bring him into the 5th edition time frame for no reason, I think they were leading up to this.
I really don't know a lot about Spelljammer. It's (generally speaking) not my cup of tea. That said, I'll try not to prejudge it. If they do a good job working it in, I think it'll probably be fine.
The Spelljammer campaign setting is basically a sword & sorcery space opera set in the Material Plane. You could theoretically travel from Abeir to Toril on a spacecraft. In contrast Planescape featured dimensions and planes of existance. They were pretty distinct settings.
But it seems that went out of the window in 5e. Apparantly the Spelljammer ships now travel through the Astral Plane and not Wildspace (Spelljammer's outer space, so to speak) anymore. Or at least the interviews hinted as such. Which would be a shame if true...
My only concern so far is Vincke's talk about multiplayer and co-op. I'm just not fond of games that try to contain all these multitudes. And I imagine it's a pretty big labor sink to add a strong co-op element.
To be fair, the Original Sin games seemed to pull it off about as well as any RPG I've ever seen, though I haven't multiplayed them. But, I just worry about them biting off more than they can chew with that. They're saying they want this to be open world and even more reactive than OS games, so that's already alot of feature creep.
The Spelljammer campaign setting is basically a sword & sorcery space opera set in the Material Plane. You could theoretically travel from Abeir to Toril on a spacecraft. In contrast Planescape featured dimensions and planes of existance. They were pretty distinct settings.
But it seems that went out of the window in 5e. Apparantly the Spelljammer ships now travel through the Astral Plane and not Wildspace (Spelljammer's outer space, so to speak) anymore. Or at least the interviews hinted as such. Which would be a shame if true...
Yeah. When described like that, it sounds enjoyable. I think my own issue is that I kind of prefer low-to-medium fantasy in general. Not everyone has magic. Not everyone fights dragons, etc
The idea of ships that can fly from Abeir to Toril requires a high-fantasy leap (I think) from me that I wasn't really ready to get into.
I don't mind incrementing into high fantasy as you level up, though. So I probably shouldn't just write it off.
The Forgotten Realms has always been a high fantasy, high magic setting... And I've been playing in it since way before the first computer game for it was written.
"You miss a lot in D&D—if the dice are bad, you miss," he says. "That doesn't work well in a videogame. If I do that, you're going to review it and say it's [bad]."
To-hit rolls have no place in CRPGs? That's the kind of logic that gave us Oblivion. It's almost as if this guy never played games like, I don't know, Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2?
Except oh wait, he's developing Baldur's Gate 3.
OMG I'm gonna need an extra big tub of popcorn when this thing gets reviewed...
Also, reading the interviews explains that the thing that flashed in the sky was not, in fact, the "mind flayer" shadow monster from Stranger Things (that would've been awkward), but in fact a Nautiloid, which was a spelljamming ship once upon a time, until 3E changed it to a ship that could move through the Astral Plane, because 3E was stupid and didn't appreciate that space is cool.
I guess astral ships attacking people is kind of a tradition in BG games, so, sure. Giant Nautiloid it is.
The ship I don't mind, I liked Spelljammers both before and after they put them in the Astral Plane.
But the "no to-hit" rolls raised my heckles as well, especially as no one complains about it in turn-based or RTwP top-down perspective game - it is mostly first person where people really complained about it.
Weirdly, you could miss in both D:OS and D:OS2. So why is it suddenly a bad thing if you are going even closer to the roots?
The Forgotten Realms has always been a high fantasy, high magic setting... And I've been playing in it since way before the first computer game for it was written.
In general, I agree. However, when I DM in the Forgotten Realms(as I am now) I use my brand of fantasy. I try not to say no to my players very often, but that doesn't mean there a dragon or lich around every corner.
"You miss a lot in D&D—if the dice are bad, you miss," he says. "That doesn't work well in a videogame. If I do that, you're going to review it and say it's [bad]."
This troubles me. Combat is all about not getting hit until you can land your blows. This real life fact could be represented in a "serious" CRPG as well, and the 5e rules kind of support such an approach...enough. There's dodging, blocking and armor soaking damage, all kinds of cool combat moves they could work with instead of just declaring "missing is bad in a video game". Video game combat does NOT have to be two people hitting each other in the face every turn until one of them runs out of their inflated HP pools. It's arcade style combat and it doesn't belong to BG3 or any RPG with an enhanced realism or darker style.
Also, the physical/magical armor system in DOS games is not good. It undermines co-op gameplay by forcing warriors and spellcasters to attack separate "HP buffers". We played co-op with Archer and Mage and the system did not grow on me over the course of the game. On the contrary, it felt very gamey and stupid. I don't want to see anything of the sort in a D&D game.
Missing i.e. "dead turns" would have a much bigger impact in TB than RTwP gameplay. The fights would last longer and longer and I can see how it would feel frustrating and boring if you miss many times in a row. Maybe that's why they're afraid of it. But in that case the answer is that turn based is NOT the right way for a D&D video game.
Real time combat in BG was an evolution from turn based PnP gameplay. It used the strengths of a video game format and made combat look exciting and fluid, like a movie rather than a board game. I'd love my BG3 fights to play out like movie scenes without changing the D&D rules into something silly and videogamey.
Well there's one of the 5 major terms that are pretty lethal towards my interest in a game, 5 words that when uttered might as well be a knife in my gamer heart. (the others are Roguelike, Games-as-Service, Survival and MMO)
Also, seriously, no roll-to-hit? Then its not an adaptation of the D&D rule set, which I thought would have always been the heart of the damn point of making a D&D branded videogame. I really have a bad feeling about this one.
It seems like multiple Beamdog employee's are in favor of turn based gameplay. Should I assume that they know something that I don't?
I have no inside info and (from the folks I've talked to here at BD) no one else does, either--or no one's willing to share with me, at least. I've spent the morning watching the same stream, reading the same articles, and following the same announcements that you have.
Personally, I have my preferences for what I'd like to see in BG3--for the record I'd prefer RTwP over turn-based--but I'm not going to pass on a BG3 due to mechanics. As I said earlier, if it's a good story with fun and engaging characters, I'll be happy. The rest is important, sure, but secondary to that.
The demarcation line for CRPGs relying on to-hit rolls was apparently between Morrowind and Oblivion, and we don't seem to be going back. If there are no to-hit rolls, then I think it's almost a guarantee it's going to be turn-based. Doesn't necessarily mean it will be a bad game. It may be a great game. It probably will be. Be it's not going to be what alot of people want.
Messing with hit calculations of D&D and fundamentally changing the combat system would be crossing the line though. Exact D&D rules work just fine in all of the IE games, NWN1&2 and Pathfinder Kingmaker. All RTwP.
What I would like to see is Larian perfecting RTwP with good animations that make the combat look exciting and awesome.
Personally, I have my preferences for what I'd like to see in BG3--for the record I'd prefer RTwP over turn-based--but I'm not going to pass on a BG3 due to mechanics. As I said earlier, if it's a good story with fun and engaging characters, I'll be happy. The rest is important, sure, but secondary to that.
Having almost finished Tales of Berseria, I think I'm going to pass on it regardless, as I've lost any faith in Western school completely.
So its 100 years in the future, isn't about Gorion's Ward, and isn't a continuation of the series' story. Confirmed: its NOT BG3, but a spin off. The name is literally just cynical marketing to draw people in and try to bank on brand nostalgia. I hate being right.
Ah man. Just read that they have said you won’t get access to the full city of Baldur’s Gate. Just the relevant bits. That’s a shame ? But I’m still looking forward to seeing what relevant parts will be.
Comments
It's in the background. They only show it at the end for less than a second though.
As one of the few Spelljammer enthusiasts, that's one big plus in my book.
I think @PhillipDaigle will be happy about this
I hope it's an Ulitharid Bhaalspawn as antagonist.
And the protagonist could be Gorion's ward and Aerie son.
On a more direct note, I am freaking happy to hear about this.
Mind Blank is the closest to this I think you get in 5E.
To begin - forgive me if some of this was known yesterday (I didn't see these details, but that doesn't mean they weren't available before).
Exciting details (for me. Don't want to speak for everyone excited)
-No bhaalspawn. So it's not a continuation like we sort of feared.
-300+ people working on the game. I see this as a sign that Larian is investing heavily into the project.
-Been worked on since 2017, so it isn't being rushed.
-5th edition (do we know that yet for sure? I think we all assumed).
-Corollary to 5th edition - they're willing (and able) to tweak the rules to make the game more fun. I believe that will be a positive as it relates to gameplay.
-Self-Published, so no "deals with the devil" to make a game for the masses. Admittedly, I don't know the scope of Google's influence here.
-Admittedly vague references to a party based game (so - probably not like NWN1)
Additionally - I get the impression that Larian treats the subject matter (BG Trilogy) somewhat reverently. Which makes me hopeful they'll do it justice.
That's not exhaustive per se, but all of which contributes to me being excited about the project. It's not a slam dunk though. I agree we absolutely need to see gameplay. The peripherals all feel good, but I'll admit they're only peripheral.
I really don't know a lot about Spelljammer. It's (generally speaking) not my cup of tea. That said, I'll try not to prejudge it. If they do a good job working it in, I think it'll probably be fine.
And it's not just the games Larian has to live up to: it's people's memories. Quite often formative memories in people's gaming lives. How do you live up to that?
"We try not to think too much about it," Vincke said, again with a smile.
"It's in good hands. It's in the hands of people who love Dungeons & Dragons. There's an enormous amount of people here who geek-out completely - there's a lot of people here, actually, for whom [Baldur's Gate] was their first RPG so they want to do their utter best making the best game they've ever made. They take it very, very seriously.
"But it's still us making it - it's not the original guys making it - so you will see what we think makes a good RPG, in 2019 and going forward."
And with another smile he concluded: "Expect to be surprised."
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2019-06-05-its-true-divinity-studio-larian-is-making-baldurs-gate-3
I asked if Baldur’s Gate III would have turn-based or real-time-with-pause combat.
“This is one of those interviews where we’ll be saying ‘We’re not talking about that yet’ a lot,” Vincke said. “When it comes to the combat system, we prefer to show it to people rather than talk about it. That will hammer it home. But it will still be some time before we actually show it.”
One of the best features of the Original Sin games is how different elements and terrain interact in combat. If water’s on the ground, you can cast an electricity spell to create an area-of-effect damaging effect on the puddle. Vincke said Larian is trying to do this.
“I have an example I use for this. When you play a tabletop game, often at some point the Dungeon Master is going to [ask] you, ‘What do you do?’ Video games in general are limited in what you can do. Our ambition is to make it as broad as possible, what you can do. This is literally one of the very big focuses of making the game,” Vincke said. “When it comes to combat, when you’re playing tabletop, you’ll look around you, see what’s in the environment, and try to use it. We’re putting a heavy focus on that.”
Baldur’s Gate III will not use the same game engine as the Original Sin series. “We’ve been in development on this game for several years already. It’s not the same engine as those two, but it is our own engine. It’s built on the technology that we already have,” Vincke said.
https://venturebeat.com/2019/06/06/baldurs-gate-iii-is-coming-for-pc-and-stadia-when-its-ready-takes-place-after-dds-descent-into-avernus/
Baldur’s Gate is arguably the most precious licence in CRPGs. How are you responding to the pressure and expectation?
SW: We try not to think about it, and just focus on making the game that we would like to play. I have to say that now we’re very close to the announcement, I’m starting to get very nervous. The more I talk to people the more you sense that people really have very high expectations. But the team is incredibly motivated and also very talented, and we are throwing our biggest team ever at this, so I hope that we are going to deliver on those expectations. We will see! There’s a lot of work ahead of us.
How would you differentiate Baldur’s Gate 3 from Divinity: Original Sin 2 and other contemporary CRPGs?
SW: The philosophy that we use to make the games is similar, but this is D&D, so it very much has its own identity. You can see that in the teaser trailer [when it releases] – the visual identity of the game is very different to Divinity: Original Sin 2, and you’re going to see that throughout the entire game.
At the same time, DOS2 was based on pen-and-paper systems, where it was about giving you systems and overcoming those challenges. So what you can expect in BG3 is us giving you more tools to fool around with based on fifth edition rules and on some of the things that make the fifth edition so cool and accessible.
https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/06/06/baldurs-gate-3-officially-announced-for-pc-and-google-stadia
In addition, Vincke says the impossible task of following on from two of the most important RPGs in history was a real allure. “It's a big challenge, right? So it's something for the team to work towards and demonstrate,” he says. “This game deserves to be really, really good. It has to be really, really good. Otherwise, we can't leave our homes anymore!”
In order to ensure RPG fans wielding burning pitchforks of +6 rage don’t surround their offices, Larian has lofty ambitions for Baldur’s Gate 3’s systems. “The level of reactivity in the world that we want is very high, so much higher than what we had in Divinity: Original Sin 2,” Vincke explains. “That's something that's been challenging, but I think we figured it out because we're making good progress.”
So why announce the game now? Well, because of tradition. Both of Larian’s Divinity: Original Sin games were crowdfunded and developed with huge amounts of input from the community. While Baldur’s Gate 3 is not a crowdfunded game, Vincke and his team want the community to be just as involved. “We owe our successes in a large part to our community,” he says. “So we need time to be able to work with them. And so this is why we're announcing now.“
Julius knows me, and knows he is not wasting his time.
I’ll get to the interviews eventually, but I am still skeptical about a lot of things being mentioned in this thread. I am completely opened minded, but will call out marketing bs when I see it
Minsc is obviously coming back, the Legends of Baldur's Gate comic book series did not bring him into the 5th edition time frame for no reason, I think they were leading up to this.
But it seems that went out of the window in 5e. Apparantly the Spelljammer ships now travel through the Astral Plane and not Wildspace (Spelljammer's outer space, so to speak) anymore. Or at least the interviews hinted as such. Which would be a shame if true...
To be fair, the Original Sin games seemed to pull it off about as well as any RPG I've ever seen, though I haven't multiplayed them. But, I just worry about them biting off more than they can chew with that. They're saying they want this to be open world and even more reactive than OS games, so that's already alot of feature creep.
Yeah. When described like that, it sounds enjoyable. I think my own issue is that I kind of prefer low-to-medium fantasy in general. Not everyone has magic. Not everyone fights dragons, etc
The idea of ships that can fly from Abeir to Toril requires a high-fantasy leap (I think) from me that I wasn't really ready to get into.
I don't mind incrementing into high fantasy as you level up, though. So I probably shouldn't just write it off.
Just a heads up I edited your post. You had double quoted me
(normally I wouldn't but all the video links just mean more scrolling for people)
The ship I don't mind, I liked Spelljammers both before and after they put them in the Astral Plane.
But the "no to-hit" rolls raised my heckles as well, especially as no one complains about it in turn-based or RTwP top-down perspective game - it is mostly first person where people really complained about it.
Weirdly, you could miss in both D:OS and D:OS2. So why is it suddenly a bad thing if you are going even closer to the roots?
In general, I agree. However, when I DM in the Forgotten Realms(as I am now) I use my brand of fantasy. I try not to say no to my players very often, but that doesn't mean there a dragon or lich around every corner.
This troubles me. Combat is all about not getting hit until you can land your blows. This real life fact could be represented in a "serious" CRPG as well, and the 5e rules kind of support such an approach...enough. There's dodging, blocking and armor soaking damage, all kinds of cool combat moves they could work with instead of just declaring "missing is bad in a video game". Video game combat does NOT have to be two people hitting each other in the face every turn until one of them runs out of their inflated HP pools. It's arcade style combat and it doesn't belong to BG3 or any RPG with an enhanced realism or darker style.
Also, the physical/magical armor system in DOS games is not good. It undermines co-op gameplay by forcing warriors and spellcasters to attack separate "HP buffers". We played co-op with Archer and Mage and the system did not grow on me over the course of the game. On the contrary, it felt very gamey and stupid. I don't want to see anything of the sort in a D&D game.
Missing i.e. "dead turns" would have a much bigger impact in TB than RTwP gameplay. The fights would last longer and longer and I can see how it would feel frustrating and boring if you miss many times in a row. Maybe that's why they're afraid of it. But in that case the answer is that turn based is NOT the right way for a D&D video game.
Real time combat in BG was an evolution from turn based PnP gameplay. It used the strengths of a video game format and made combat look exciting and fluid, like a movie rather than a board game. I'd love my BG3 fights to play out like movie scenes without changing the D&D rules into something silly and videogamey.
Well there's one of the 5 major terms that are pretty lethal towards my interest in a game, 5 words that when uttered might as well be a knife in my gamer heart. (the others are Roguelike, Games-as-Service, Survival and MMO)
Also, seriously, no roll-to-hit? Then its not an adaptation of the D&D rule set, which I thought would have always been the heart of the damn point of making a D&D branded videogame. I really have a bad feeling about this one.
I have no inside info and (from the folks I've talked to here at BD) no one else does, either--or no one's willing to share with me, at least. I've spent the morning watching the same stream, reading the same articles, and following the same announcements that you have.
Personally, I have my preferences for what I'd like to see in BG3--for the record I'd prefer RTwP over turn-based--but I'm not going to pass on a BG3 due to mechanics. As I said earlier, if it's a good story with fun and engaging characters, I'll be happy. The rest is important, sure, but secondary to that.
What I would like to see is Larian perfecting RTwP with good animations that make the combat look exciting and awesome.
Dungeon Lords (2005) had them.
I thought KOTOR did a pretty decent job of it... and then Dragon Age Origins did it terribly. Don't know why that happened.