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The Politics Thread

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Comments

  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,625
    edited March 2020
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    If this and the cash payments go through, I will consider the handling of the situation a partial success. It had a terrible beginning but in the end they did more for people than I can see any recent past administration doing.

    If the Senate blocks cash payments, I don't think I could ever support them again, and I don't say that lightly.


    The two-month delay (to this hour) on testing is going to cause the unnecessary deaths of 10s of thousands of people. It is WHY the entire economy is basically having to shut down. Because we have no idea where the virus is. The checks and suspension of these actions (though not payments themselves) HAVE to happen because there is no other choice. But I see the game now. There is no evidence any other Administration wouldn't have to take the same steps just to make sure people can continue living on a sustenance level. But they wouldn't have let it get here in the first place.

    He has convinced 30% of the country it isn't even a threat for the last 3+ weeks. He was offered MILLIONS of test kits in January and declined them. And now that the entire thing is literally falling apart, we are offering PRAISE?? Do not kid yourself, we aren't even to the second batter in the top of the first inning yet. This thing hasn't even STARTED yet. Of course Trump doesn't have a problem with sending out checks. His entire modus operandi is to create a crisis and then pretend he fixed it. Only this time it's gonna be 400,000 dead senior citizens. This isn't a mortgage bubble. It's a global pandemic.

    I think that's more than a bit of an exaggeration, we would have to have implemented quarantine measures with or without the testing. It's not like we are unique in this regard, many nations are doing the same. This would have happened either way, but the correct response looks to be coming.

    I tend to give credit for small victories, because I have low expectations.

    smeagolheartdeltagoBalrog99
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,610
    I mean, of course evictions and foreclosures have to be stopped. We're going to have to mostly self-isolate for at least a month or two. That's pretty much impossible if you lose your place of residence. Italy has flat-out waived payments themselves for six months.

    smeagolheartBalrog99ThacoBell
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,962
    edited March 2020
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 6,882
    Xorina wrote: »
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    Fresh start, eh? I like it!

    Let's see how long it takes for this to become the Trump is Hitler, the US is Nazi Germany and we're all going to die from global warming unless we stop driving, heating our houses and having kids thread again...

    Curious how every generation for as far back as recorded civilisation has their characteristic doomsday scenarios and Chicken Littles/Lickens running hither and thither as they do in Luskan.

    On the other side of the electrum piece, my Sergeant didn't believe me when I suspected malign conspiratorial forces was behind the Neverwintan wailing death. Thankfully Lord Nasher believed me.

    Wow, I feel like that's a 'Best of Balrog99' quote there! How many pages ago was that?

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,610
    edited March 2020
    We and South Korea had our first cases reported at the exact same time. South Korea is basically coming out the other end of this already. We haven't even entered the front of the tunnel. Why?? Massive, widespread testing to isolate the virus in EVERY instance possible. Meanwhile, the Governor of Ohio, tonight, March 18, is flat-out announcing that the only people who can get one in that state are healthcare workers and people already so sick they need hospitalization. This is madness. Where are they?? I can't stress this enough. If we don't know where it is, we can't even BEGIN to talk about getting to where South Korea is. All epidemiologists agree on two things: move fast, and test, test, test and isolate cases. We are pathetically behind the curve. We aren't even playing the same game. South Korea is a major league hitter and we're a 5-year old who can't connect with a wiffle ball off a tee.

    Meanwhile, Florida has lost it's fucking mind entirely. Monday?? What kind of drugs are these officials on?? It's gotta be some spectacular shit:

    ThacoBell
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,752
    A new Emergency Care Benefit of up to $900 biweekly, up to 15 weeks, to provide income support to workers, including the self-employed, who have to stay home and don't qualify for paid sick leave or employment insurance. The measure could disburse up to $10 billion.

    UP TO are the key words. . . the other key word is 'employment insurance.' A majority of Canadians do qualify for it and one needs to dig deeper into this to see what they'll actually get. IMO, it's going to be a case by case thing depending on property taxes and rent, businesses net worth, number of employees and other numbers.

    smeagolheartThacoBell
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 6,882
    edited March 2020
    deltago wrote: »
    A new Emergency Care Benefit of up to $900 biweekly, up to 15 weeks, to provide income support to workers, including the self-employed, who have to stay home and don't qualify for paid sick leave or employment insurance. The measure could disburse up to $10 billion.

    UP TO are the key words. . . the other key word is 'employment insurance.' A majority of Canadians do qualify for it and one needs to dig deeper into this to see what they'll actually get. IMO, it's going to be a case by case thing depending on property taxes and rent, businesses net worth, number of employees and other numbers.

    I'm afraid the US plan is going to be the same thing. By the time they figure out who gets what, the crisis will be over... :|

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,610
    Something else likely no one is thinking about. So many unknown consequences:

    ThacoBellXorina
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,962
    edited March 2020
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    Something else likely no one is thinking about. So many unknown consequences:

    (cop says there's more domestic violence)

    Maybe somewhat similarly..
    Coronavirus driving divorce rates up in ChinaChina reported a spike in divorce cases ever since the coronavirus outbreak

    "The offices said that the main reason for the sudden spike was because 'couples were spending too much time together at home'."

    https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2020/03/14/Coronavirus-driving-divorce-rates-up-in-China.html

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,962
    edited March 2020

    I'm not left wing.

    I've lived in other countries, the Netherlands and Italy, and my views are not left wing. It's America that the overton window is screwed way the hell up. Sanders would be a moderate in most countries. He'd probably be a moderate in Canada.

    Judging by the voting patterns of Italy, your social views would be considered so left wing as to be unelectable there, but just fine in the Netherlands. It's really not the case that America is some right wing anomaly, especially given the fact that the "far right" in many of the more traditionally left wing European countries are experiencing more growth and support than they have in decades, with traditional parties scrambling to keep them out of power.

    I don't think so btw about Italy. They already have things Bernie's fighting for nationalized healthcare (looking bad now because overwhelmed now ofc), guaranteed sick leave, better food standards, better labor protection than the US. Like the US, I recall their perceptions that government officials were corrupt was something we had in common. They have had their own Trump figure in Silvio Berlusconi. I could fit probably fit in a moderate right wing party probably. (Not Mussolini's grandaughter's party of course...)

    Perhaps @Aedan could provide some insight on italian politics. I lived there during the GWB years.

    ThacoBell
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,610
    Just so we're clear here, this is what the House Democrats are putting forward as of tonight. This is way, WAY more comprehensive than anything the Administration is floating, though will likely get about 1000x less attention:

    ThacoBellsemiticgoddess
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,916
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    If this and the cash payments go through, I will consider the handling of the situation a partial success. It had a terrible beginning but in the end they did more for people than I can see any recent past administration doing.

    If the Senate blocks cash payments, I don't think I could ever support them again, and I don't say that lightly.


    The two-month delay (to this hour) on testing is going to cause the unnecessary deaths of 10s of thousands of people. It is WHY the entire economy is basically having to shut down. Because we have no idea where the virus is. The checks and suspension of these actions (though not payments themselves) HAVE to happen because there is no other choice. But I see the game now. There is no evidence any other Administration wouldn't have to take the same steps just to make sure people can continue living on a sustenance level. But they wouldn't have let it get here in the first place.

    He has convinced 30% of the country it isn't even a threat for the last 3+ weeks. He was offered MILLIONS of test kits in January and declined them. And now that the entire thing is literally falling apart, we are offering PRAISE?? Do not kid yourself, we aren't even to the second batter in the top of the first inning yet. This thing hasn't even STARTED yet. Of course Trump doesn't have a problem with sending out checks. His entire modus operandi is to create a crisis and then pretend he fixed it. Only this time it's gonna be 400,000 dead senior citizens. This isn't a mortgage bubble. It's a global pandemic.

    I think that's more than a bit of an exaggeration, we would have to have implemented quarantine measures with or without the testing. It's not like we are unique in this regard, many nations are doing the same. This would have happened either way, but the correct response looks to be coming.

    I agree there's nothing unusual about the quarantine measures or economic stimulus package - and such measures would have been required under any government. The extent of the eventual crisis though is likely to be affected by the way the government has behaved. As part of that, I think testing is even more important in the US than other countries - because of the greater extent to which some people wish to assert their individual 'rights' irrespective of the danger that causes to others.

    Some of that sort of behavior would end if the individuals concerned actually knew they were infected and would be a danger to their own loved ones as well as everyone else. For those who would still not take appropriate precautions, coercive measures could be used (and I was reading about a case like that in the US a day or two ago). I would expect there to be significant resistance to such measures if applied to all citizens (in the way done in the area around Wuhan for instance), but I suspect a huge majority of people in the US would support such action against infected people deliberately putting others in danger in order to make a political or philosophical point. Without the sort of very widespread testing done in South Korea though, there would be no way to target such action.

    It's not just cultural differences which have resulted in a relatively slow response from the US at both government and community levels. A significant part of the reason that much of the general population appears to have been slow to understand the threat from Covid-19 is the information being provided, which has very largely been driven by short-term political motives rather than scientific assessments. You can still see that now. In Trump's press conference yesterday, he announced major economic measures and legal changes. Given how extreme those are for peace time, he provided some commentary about why they were being instituted (a war against an invisible enemy). He also gave out some of the right sort of messages (such as we're all in this together). However, he also provided a totally unrealistic projection of how things would turn out "But we are going to defeat the invisible enemy. I think we are going to do it even faster than we thought, and it'll be a complete victory. It'll be a total victory." This is not helping to prepare people for the fact that the only real prospect at the moment for life returning to normal is the development of a fully effective vaccine - which can't be guaranteed at present and in any event wouldn't be available until 2021.

    smeagolheartjjstraka34ThacoBell
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,550
    First - I do applaud the government (and by extension, Trump) for taking some action. We should not let perfection be the enemy of the good. His stimulus plan aimed at helping everyday Americans is great. I'm much less enthused about his payroll tax cut, which disproportionately will help higher income earners as well as those who are reliably collecting a paycheck (They need the assistance less than those who arent).

    That said, I also think its' entirely fair to be utterly critical of the administration for their handling of the crisis in general. They were slow to act, and have actively harmed the response efforts with their rhetoric. I also feel like it took the market's losing their collective minds for Trump to really start moving on this issue, which doesnt reaffirm my confidence in him.

    I'm willing to give Trump credit, but he's still very, very, very deep in the hole on this crisis. That hole may be deeper yet.

    ThacoBellAyiekie
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,610
    I mean, for the entirety of this crisis (since we REALLY knew something bad was coming our way), the marker has always been March 23/24 when things could really take a turn for the worse. The numbers continue to do exactly what you would expect them to do day after day, which is rise exponentially. While some of us are keeping a large distance from everyone we see (when we are required to be out), others are getting trashed on beaches in Florida. When I'm reading accounts of nurses and doctors saying they flat-out KNOW they are going to run out of protective gear, and then see co-eds partying, it doesn't give me a lot of hope people understand this.

    Also realize that lesser populated states and areas still don't really get it. I live in a small city (really 3 cities tied together) and based on the county that was reported, we may have one case confirmed (which, as always means nothing). Things are LESS busy, but they certainly haven't ground to a halt. While work is on a day by day basis inching closer to getting us to work for home, it isn't quick enough for me. Every time I ride the bus I feel more exposed, and thus more of a danger to others. All I really want at this point is to shut myself in my apartment with the tools I need to work and stay here for a month. I'm prepared to do that. But the middle of the country is not "feeling" it the way the largest population centers are yet. And we should be moving faster out of caution. Once again, EVERYTHING seems like a reaction rather than anticipation. Which is why I believe we are so screwed in the immediate future.

    BelleSorciereThacoBell
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    edited March 2020
    The payroll tax cut is something that Republicans have had on the table for a long time. This isn't a measure against covid-19, this is the opportunity to use the shock of a pandemic to slip in policy that will, ultimately, cause a lot of damage to the social security system which will in turn harm disabled and retired people.

    Democrats have tried to do this too, but the president isn't a Democrat.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    deltago wrote: »
    A new Emergency Care Benefit of up to $900 biweekly, up to 15 weeks, to provide income support to workers, including the self-employed, who have to stay home and don't qualify for paid sick leave or employment insurance. The measure could disburse up to $10 billion.

    UP TO are the key words. . . the other key word is 'employment insurance.' A majority of Canadians do qualify for it and one needs to dig deeper into this to see what they'll actually get. IMO, it's going to be a case by case thing depending on property taxes and rent, businesses net worth, number of employees and other numbers.

    I'm afraid the US plan is going to be the same thing. By the time they figure out who gets what, the crisis will be over... :|

    Unless it takes 2 years, I doubt. That's the estimate I give this crisis. 2 years (at least) until we get back to a "normal" life. 9-18 months for a functioning vaccine, then the remainder of the time making it available to everyone and have enough people using it for large gatherings to be, relatively, safe again.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,610
    edited March 2020
    As @Grond0 alluded to, he is now, on a pretty much daily basis, throwing out magic bullets that are either half true (he authorized the Defense Production Act but hasn't told them to actually produce anything, despite hospitals running out of protective supplies and respiratory devices as we speak) or flat-out UNTRUE, like this. This does not help. It is meant to alleviate pressure on him PERSONALLY, not to manage the crisis. People, you must know by now he will never change:


    These press conferences range on a scale from totally useless to outright counter-productive. They are being held as a daily soap opera to soothe Trump's ego and play a narrative game. We learn nothing, and half the stuff we do learn isn't based in reality. Take another claim, about the $1000 checks. Though I certainly do believe checks will get sent out, it isn't anywhere NEAR being ironed out. And I mention this because my aunt texted me again this morning, furiously trying to find financial statements at her salon. I told her that yes, it is likely that checks will go out eventually. And that it's certainly good to be prepared. But we have NO details about it. And it's clear (because I view my aunt as just a "regular" person who doesn't follow politics like we do) that Trump now has many people basically believing that these checks are 2 or 3 days away from arriving in the mail. And I'll just leave this here for reflection. Such an unparalleled abdication of leadership:


    So not a shipping clerk. But almost certainly a endless ATM for corporations who used almost all their liquid assets to purchase their own stock buybacks to artificially inflate their worth.

    smeagolheartThacoBell
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,916
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    Xorina wrote: »
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    Fresh start, eh? I like it!

    Let's see how long it takes for this to become the Trump is Hitler, the US is Nazi Germany and we're all going to die from global warming unless we stop driving, heating our houses and having kids thread again...

    Curious how every generation for as far back as recorded civilisation has their characteristic doomsday scenarios and Chicken Littles/Lickens running hither and thither as they do in Luskan.

    On the other side of the electrum piece, my Sergeant didn't believe me when I suspected malign conspiratorial forces was behind the Neverwintan wailing death. Thankfully Lord Nasher believed me.

    Wow, I feel like that's a 'Best of Balrog99' quote there! How many pages ago was that?

    I had the same reaction and did check when I read that post yesterday. I guess the reason it was singled out is that the post was from July 2018 (472 pages ago) and was the first non-administrative post in this revised thread :p.

    Balrog99
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,610
    The Prince Prospero of the Senate. Telling well-connected donors the truth while keeping the rest of us in the dark:

    ThacoBell
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 6,882
    @jjstraka34

    Yeah, there's some weird shit going on behind the scenes. One of the radio announcers on WJR yesterday was saying there was some kind of press meeting with government officials and there was 'good news' that he wished he could share but he isn't allowed to. Bizarro World is entering the Twilight Zone now...

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,752
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    jjstraka34

    Yeah, there's some weird shit going on behind the scenes. One of the radio announcers on WJR yesterday was saying there was some kind of press meeting with government officials and there was 'good news' that he wished he could share but he isn't allowed to. Bizarro World is entering the Twilight Zone now...

    WTF? It's probably the chloroquine announcement and not wanting to steal Trump's thunder from today, which is probably a good thing after the FDA announcement.

    In other news, Tulsi quit the presidential race today.

  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,009
    deltago wrote: »
    In other news, Tulsi quit the presidential race today.

    I always gave her more credit than others did--if elected POTUS you can't just quit...and she didn't, until now. She is not running for re-election to her House seat, either--I suspect she is through with politics for now.

    Balrog99
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,610
    edited March 2020
    He's doing this on purpose to distract from everything else. He'd rather have this argument than answer questions about this:


    And this:


    And this:


    The line "Bin Laden determined to strike in the US" is ringing in my ears. The "China Virus" is a cowardly trick, but eyes on the ball people. They screwed the pooch, and it's to their advantage to keep talking about it rather than these historic blunders.

    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
    Mantis37ThacoBell
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,610
    So, more on Senate Intelligence Chairman Richard Burr. It gets worse. Turns out he was essentially engaged in insider trading. And those rich donors he was letting in on the REAL scope of the crisis likely were as well. This is unconscionable. It's pandemic profiteering:

    smeagolheartThacoBell
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    I fundamentally disagree that establishment Democrats are Republican light. Almost literally every part of Clinton’s platform was anathema to Republicans.

    Keeping ACA - Anathema
    Acknowledging and dealing with Climate Change - Anathema
    Raising Taxes - Anathema
    Improving social safety net - Anathema
    Letting Dreamers stay - Anathema
    Paying for some or all of university - Anathema
    Pathway to citizenship - Anathema

    I could go on. I won’t. These are moderate stances by the Democrat party. They are all non starters for Republicans.

    Quite a few of those stances are held by Republicans. The ACA is a copy of a Republican plan.

    Mitch McConnell is not the entirety of the Republican party, nor is Donald Trump. Even less are they the Republican electorate (which, for instance, consistently supports raising taxes on the rich).

    Feeding into the culture war nonsense actively hinders progressive attempts to get things accomplished in the US.

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,962
    edited March 2020
    Trump's leadership has been utter failure. Telling governors to scrap like rats for medical supplies while the nation is under attack from an "invisible enemy" is unconscionable.

    Can't you see how ridiculous this is? He's what trying to start a bidding war between states at a time when supplies are low. This is not a time for the "free market". Now is when the federal government needs to flex it's muscle, now. When there is a crisis of this magnitude that threatens the entire nation, it's completely insane and irresponsible to say "every man for himself".

    If Al Qaeda attacked every state would you go "each state try and get your own guns and fend for yourself, the federal government isn't a shipping clerk", of course not. America is under attack and this response is insane.
    bloomberg wrote: »
    President Donald Trump’s directive for governors to buy their own medical supplies to fight the coronavirus has run into a big problem -- the federal government.

    Massachusetts Governor Charlie Baker told Trump during a video conference on Thursday that his state three times lost out to the federal government on purchases of critical supplies, creating an awkward moment during the made-for-TV event at Federal Emergency Management Agency headquarters in Washington.

    The president replied he still wants governors to seek out their own medical equipment, like protective gear for doctors and nurses as well as respirators, but acknowledged the federal government has greater buying power than any state.
    ...
    “Prices are always a component of that also. And maybe that’s why you lost to the feds, OK, that’s probably why,” Trump said.

    When New Mexico’s governor raised similar concerns later in the call, Trump said he would ask FEMA to ensure there were no conflicts with purchases in the future. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-19/trump-told-governors-to-buy-own-virus-supplies-then-outbid-them

    He's going to tell FEMA not to try and buy medical supplies. WHAT?????!?

    Can't you see how ridiculous this is? By forcing the states to bid against each other for the very limited amount of supply of medical suppliers he's driving up the prices. "Prices are always a component" no shit sherlock.

    The federal government realizes there's a disaster. 50 state governors all realize it's a disaster. Why have them all competing against each other? This is going to encourage states to hoard their own resources.

    Now is the time to centralize this to get a competent central authority coordinating the response which is what other responsible countries have NO PROBLEM DOING. Look, you can go back to predatory capitalism later. This supply issue is just one component. The federal government needs to be directing hospitals across the nation and ensuring standards and information is passed out and making sure each one is not just doing their own thing. Minimum standards need to be enforced. I'm certain that is not happening because conservatives are all about "every man for himself on this sinking ship".

    jjstraka34Grond0ThacoBell
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,962
    The stimulus bills are great and all but how about we focus on the medical emergency first?

    ThacoBell
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,610
    edited March 2020
    The idea we should be confronting this with 50 separate approaches completely disconnected from a federal response is lunacy. Obviously there are at the moment geographic variables as to the harshness of the lockdown measures, but as we can see from Florida's insanity the last 4 or 5 days, that isn't great either. But the idea of telling governors to "find their own supplies" in a global pandemic is bonkers. If they aren't providing the amount of tests they said they would, and they aren't looking to acquire the respiratory devices and protective gear needed for hospitals, then what, exactly, are they doing besides holding press conferences where half the time he is giving out false information??

    And look, ANOTHER one who dumped stock after a classified briefing. Meanwhile the average citizen was left twisting in the wind as to vital information about what was coming. Jesus Christ:





    They KNEW what was coming for over a month, and not only didn't they tell us, but they actively painted a rosy picture. This is, no hyperbole, get the pitchforks-level shit. These people should never see the light of day again. Neither should any Democrat who did the same thing (if that is revealed). For that matter, we now need to know every stock trade made by members of the Trump family and Administration officials in the same time period. This is nothing short of treason in my opinion.

    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
    smeagolheartThacoBell
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,962
    And then they went around claiming it was a democratic hoax after selling stock.

    The Republican organization is pure evil up and down. Dems aren't much better but they ARE better. We need serious reform in this country if these two Senators are not put in prison. How serious? Serious as a heart attack serious.

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